[v3.6] R.O.B. Community Matchup Chart + Discussion

[Dandizzle]

No info in this first post is currently up to date, kept for looking back and core concepts of R.O.B have stayed the same, therefore parts of these match ups are very similar to older versions. When/if discussion happens this post will be updated and I will try to separate old posts from the new.
Strong Disadvantage:
Sheik

Spoiler

I think I found out why Sheik is a bad matchup for ROB. Too hard to hit her when she SHs, all her aerials are really meaty and always beat ROB's, hard to approach if she needles from the air, her hurtboxes change a lot when she jumps and lands so lasering her is easier said than done, basically can't recover from below against needles, dsmash doesn't lead to many good follow-ups since she's not a fast faller, and she combos the **** outta ROB unlike most characters and can even chaingrab him at some points.

Sheik has beaten ROB pretty badly since 2.1. Pretty much her entire kit shuts down ROB. I remember you mentioned something about a 'blind-spot problem' that ROB has, Drinking. Well Sheik gets in that blind-spot reeeaaal easy. Also, Sheik can really nullify pretty much all heavy floaties survivability really early if she catches you with bthrow > tipper usmash. Kills around 100 consistently. What we do have going for us, though, are CGs and the fact that her moves are fairly easy to CC (even though dsmash sucks with good SDI). Also, Sheik is easy to edgeguard.

Large stages don't actually work against a good sheik, not for ROB anyways. I used to think we could out camp her, but that's not actually the case. She has too much vertical mobility and her hurtboxes change too much to reliably hit her with our projectiles, which have small hitboxes and a lot of cool down (especially gyro on miss). She can charge her needles or throw her needles safely while moving up and down like that, and then once her needles are charged she is a huge threat to approach while she's airborne, can tack on 18 percent if she hits them (which is easier to do if she's grounded tho). The aerial needle throws stuff approaches from afar or anywhere not directly underneath her, and she can come down with one her of her extremely meaty aerials if you get too close for the needles to hit. You won't be crouch canceling that aerial if she's been tacking on damage with her needles. And if you use side-b to reflect them if thrown while grounded you can't do it on reaction because needles are too quick, so you have to read when she will throw them which is asking to be baited. That's why I think small stages are good, it lets you get up in her face quickly so you can still CC her aerials and not have to deal with as many needles early on. Lack of platforms also helps, it stops her from using them to get good needle angles and land safely after throwing them.
I used to think I could also out-survive her, but that's still only partly true- sheik can intercept high recoveries easily (one of ROB's strengths in terms of recovery) and can use needles to easily intercept low recoveries (which forces ROB below side-b sweetspot range and into his very bad/predictable up-b sweetspot range). Here, I've got some handy dandy videos of me vs another top 3 PM player in my state, who appears to have picked up sheik in PM almost exclusively to deal with my ROB.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFEWkEyswak
Ignore the last game of me as Roy, that was an experiment/for practice, trying to bring up my secondaries to my ROB's level.
I also played him earlier in tourney, test running my samus for the first two games then taking a game as ROB and losing the fourth (skip to 9:15): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yyg-DVUr0vM
I have improved at the matchup from my first try at it from a week earlier, if you want to see the progression of our matchup, watch this set first (split into 3 vids with no sound and a bit laggy, lame as ****) and then the above two in reverse order. But if you see some questionable choices in the above games, the reasoning is probably answered by the consequences of a better choice that gets stuffed anyways in earlier games because it's ****in' sheik.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mbnu2DRIYF0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CbzC1-FGloo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w4GlYY8sqNw
Note: i also hopefully have some solutions in the work, improving my punish game on sheik and my responses to her being able to go airborne so quickly, i'll be able to test them next time I play him likely about a week from now.

ROB:Sheik is just a bad MU for us, no matter which way you slice it. ROB can't really outcamp anybody with decent camping potential. I would just prefer space so that I can abuse ROB's really good tilts, fairs, and boost mix-ups. Performing grounded sideB preemptively (as a 'read', in some cases) is kind of a necessity in a lot of MUs, not just vs Sheik. Sheik also has her own blindspot, which is directly beneath her. Yes, she has some nifty aerials, but they do not cover that space well and we can force trades, which would be in our favor, or just beat out her stuff. Therefore, ROB can Rotor in during a few points at neutral. If Sheik is on the ground and ROB is somewhat close, he can just zoom in. If she shoots needles, then you reflect them. If she does nothing, then you hit her or her shield, but you can make sideB safe if you space it so that you end up behind her (that move doesn't really have enough lag for her to WD OoS and punish). If she jumps, you end up right below her and aerial needles can't stop you. You can also just Rotor in on reaction to her jumping. This is part of the reason I prefer large stages; I get space for sideB to be a major part of my approach mix-ups.
The problem I have with smaller stages is that ROB's CQC options are terrible. His tilts and smashes aren't safe at that range, jumping puts him in immediate danger unless he is boost bairing away (which isn't much of an option on small stages), and even directs hits barely accomplish anything. CC dsmash, his best CQC option, can just be SDI'd and punished. There is another major problem with being in Sheik's face all the time. Sheik is the queen of grab punishes, her aerials are safe, even when CC'd, her crouch/crawl avoids a lot of things, and her CQC options in general vastly, VASTLY destroy ours. She can completely annihilate us when fighting up-close. If we can get a lucky non-SDI'd dsmash or a grab, then we can get a combo or CG going, but Sheik's jab, tilts, grab, and even her dsmash just beat us out at the in-fighting game.

Try to not boost in for fairs too much because her ftilt will stuff that pretty often. Grounded gyro will block grounded needles, so if you can toss one out and protect it, you can outcamp sheik with lasers. Sheik doesn't have any grounded glide tosses so if she grabs your gyro, pressuring her is relatively safe and at worst, you take a gyro to the face with no follow-up if you pressure unsafely. It also means you can boost in and fair a lot more if she grabs a gyro since she can't ftilt. Gyro on the ground will also make it difficult for her to grab you, and you can CC Dsmash, CC dtilt, CC grab, CC usmash, etc most of her other approaches to mid-high percents. Try to keep space with retreating fairs, ftilts, jabs, and dtilts if she gets close.

Disadvantage:
Charizard

Spoiler

ROB has a serious problem getting down against Zard, and Zard also edgeguards ROB pretty well. Zard pretty much beats out ROB at any range that isn't long-range. At mid-range, his tilts out-range and out-prioritize. If ROB isn't able to keep Zard out with good gyro and tilt/fair placement, things go downhill real fast. Up close, Zard can keep fishing for grabs (the range of which is way superior to ROB's; if ROB doesn't perfectly space his tilts, he can bet that he's going to be shieldgrabbed but the converse is not true) and reaping huge benefits off them, and ROB's OoS options are so bad that he has trouble getting away at this point. ROB's status as a heavy floaty means he gets hit extra-hard by bthrow and uthrow, and his terrible tech-rolls (and rolls in general) let Zard easily mess him up off of dthrow (and OoS). Fthrow isn't necessarily bad, but Zard is better than than most at edgeguarding ROB between his huge tilts and aerials and his flamethrower. Flamethrower in particular cuts off a lot of ROB's recovery options. Being a good deal heavier than ROB doesn't help; Zard will regularly be killing ROB way before ROB will be killing Zard.

In fact, Zard's weight is a big problem in more ways than just survivability. Since ROB's tilts aren't exactly the strongest moves, and Zard is so heavy, he can easily CC dtilt/jab/grab ROB's tilts, but vice versa doesn't really work at all.

In 3.5, ROB's recovery is needlessly worse. Specifically in this MU, boost air dodge was an incredibly important mix-up on the last boost since Zard can effectively cover all of ROB's recovery options including the high-up ones (Zard can easily Fly and then fall back down with ROB) and the low ones. Zard's 3.5 changes hurt Zard as a character, but they don't really restrain him in this particular MU. His nair and glide, which were both important in helping Zard get down and avoid being juggled, were both nerfed, but he never really had a particular problem with being juggled against ROB, but conversely, Zard's dash speed and giant, fast usmash can keep ROB in the air for days. His flamethrower was also nerfed so that he can't continue to spam it at minimum strength, but he only needs the large one for a moment to cover multiple options and severely mess up ROB's recovery.

Stay away from Zard. Harass him with lasers and keep a gyro out between yourself and Zard at all times. With that out, you can play around the gyro with tilts and fairs while remaining relatively safe. The gyro is difficult for Zard to pick up and his item toss sucks. Also, if he does pick up your gyro, ROB gets free virtually nonpunishable approaches. You can basically Arm Rotor in on-reaction to him picking it up. If you get him in the air, you can try to surprise him with burst usmashes (Zard is also a heavy floaty, so this will kill him remarkably early). If he badly spaces attacks on your shield, you can also go for usmash OoS or shieldgrab, but do not let yourself be tricked into trying to shieldgrab spaced moves. Even Zard's dash attack, when spaced, is surprisingly safe. Meanwhile, I would not recommend attacking the front of Zard's shield too much unless it is from behind a gyro; many times, I have been shieldgrabbed for ftilts and dtilts I thought were well-spaced, and Zard's CC ability is another reason to be wary of.

When Zard's offstage, obviously laser and gyro toss are good at knocking him out of jumps and his glide, but when he's closer, ROB's fsmash can pierce through his glide attack and send him back out.

Captain Falcon

Spoiler

This thread had some good posts about the Falcon match up http://smashboards.com/threads/captain-falcon-mu.393054/

I'd be very surprised as well if Falcon didn't beat ROB. He's fast enough grounded to outspace any boosted approaches, can approach ROB's blind spot from a huge distance with knee or dair which beat CC after low percents or with Nair to cross up safely and tack on damage. He's also got an excellent punish game on ROB. Best thing I've found to do is crouch a lot do make it harder for him to SH in with an aerial, and use a lot of gyro and laser. Once you can get a good hit on him to knock him down or grab him, you should be able to punish for a stock- dthrow CGs, fthrow/bthrow set up for easy edgeguards, uthrow is even useful at low mid percents under platforms so that they can't tech onto the platform before you can follow up like dthrow would let them.

Falcon is very easy to gimp as ROB. You could improve the time it takes you to follow up and hit Falcon off stage as there were a bunch of times he got back for free (although ledge hogging to B air was nice in the first game with falcon).

I'd also recommend you have your top around more. I like full hopping over a SHFL N airing Falcon and throwing the top down at them. Also, knowing exactly where the top will end up after charging for "x" amount of time is my favorite acquired skill playing ROB. Against Falcon I launch it to sit right at the edge of the stage as a means to cover certain recovery options and psych out my recovering opponent.

Marth

Spoiler

I really dislike the Marth MU. Marth can kind of keep us in the air forever and utilt kills us much earlier than I'm used to. Also, like none of our moves can challenge his when we're both spacing and he can just attack through or over the gyro top. Lasers are nice, but he just has to react and shield or counter it when he's at mid or full-screen and now he can get in.

Against Marth/Roy punishing laggy moves with DACUS (everybody gotta DACUS more it's so real) is a really good option because you don't have to jump and it gets them above you. They have plenty of ways to not get juggled from it but it makes you the opposite of above him which is where you DO NOT want to be. One hit from below can be lights out for you if you are not careful. If you go on a stage with platforms, shield dropping is a smart thing to do, usually into nair, but I haven't done this enough. Gyro allows you to take way more on shield and hit them from afar. Best to use laser when they are in hitstun or far away if fully charged, it's pretty laggy so you can get punished from afar. You can throw a gyro at their recovery and it'll usually kill them, grabbing the ledge is pretty good too, maybe after a fair chain. The match up isn't as bad as it could be but even ehh... maybe Roy.

I have mixed feelings on the R.O.B v Marth/Roy matchup. It sucks recovering low with R.O.B against those two. Marth can spike you, and Roy can use his neutral special. However, on the ground I feel R.O.B can hold his own, if you can space the other player properly. They can fair your top, which sucks, but the laser is always there. I agree with the "slight disadvantage" rating.

From what I have played Marth and Roy (a bit more) are worse to the point where they are equally bad and possibly can be buffed to straight 60:40 even though it probably wont sit pretty with most of you for them 2 be as bad as Sheik. (which could be even worse this patch, I wouldn't know.) Just that edgeguarding us is so, so much easier with the airdodge change and wavelanding from booster being dumb. Up air not killing makes our punishes lead to death not as easily too . I haven't really experimented with this but it's also possible Side-B isn't as good to get grabs with the lag, which I think I used quite often against the two. Really all I got at the moment though.

Slight Disadvantage:


Even:
Meta Knight

Spoiler

I see some problems similar to Marth, like him ducking under projectiles and of course range. Meta Knight is more directly aggro. smaller, has more jumps, deeper offstage edgeguards, and quick aerials. He would have a much harder time killing and can't really keep you out with ranged pokes with his butter knife. Honestly it probably can be a pain in the *** but there's stuff we can do like CC and living for years with good DI and spacing. Bubbaking has a Metaknight so he should probably say something.

Not like it matters much, now that 3.5 is out, but yeah, I mained MK. I believe he solidly beat ROB. MK can CG ROB too from low to high-mid %'s if ROB DIs dthrow away, and if he doesn't, easy combos for MK. What really made this MU bad, though, is what makes ROB a bad character, in 3.02, before 3.02, and even after 3.02. He has no OoS options. MK's frame-trap pressure works really well on ROB because his options are roll, which is easily punished, fair OoS, which goes right over MK's head and simply doesn't work on anyone who's behind ROB, or just stay in shield and let himself get grabbed. ROB's strengths in this MU are his ability to CC, since MK is pretty easy to CC, and his ability to CG and combo MK very hard. After that, MK has a pretty easy time against ROB. Didn't help that ROB is floaty and somewhat easy to juggle and MK is the juggle master and has SL.

Link

Spoiler

If he is somehow shielding your fair and utilting your bair you are definitely not mixing it up. He is probably reading the distance from which you boost and choosing either to shield then grab if you boost from whatever distance you use for fair, and choosing to wait then utilt whenever you choose to boost from closer for a bair (i'm assuming bair cross-up?). He can't be doing it purely on reaction because fair is too quick to react to which requires that he commit to shield ahead of time. You can't utilt out of shield, either.
Anyways Link's grab is super slow and a properly timed boost fair l-canceled is safe on shield against any grab if followed up eith a jab, and safe on link's shield if followed up with just about anything. If he is grabbing you out of it you arem't doing it well enough.
Anyway lemme find a video of me vs our resident best Link main here in louisiana

EDIT: Enter Text Here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1T4OKN5HT3s
It's an old 3.0 video from hella fraud streamers but not much has actually changed about the matchup sans Link's stupid boomerang and both characters having worse recoveries.

I have tons of Link experience with mid and high level Links. I love the MU and can beat players much better than myself with ROB. First it's one of the few MUs where ground side B's reflector is very useful. Bombs still may explode on you, but arrow and boomerang spam is very easy to deal with using side b (especially boomerang because they tend not to shield it since it's supposed to come back at them regardless. Even good Links don't expect it to hit them 90% of the time giving you a decent window of approach).
DF is right about Links grab too. Boost->F-air->L Cancel->jab/tilt beats their grab. A lot of times you can bait the grab by boost dash dancing and can punish the anticipated grab since it's so slow too.

Slight Advantage:
Ivysaur

Spoiler

Our camping and defensive options are generally much more solid than hers. Laser hits through everything. The Gyro doesn't stop Razor Leaf, but it slows it down by a tremendous amount allowing us to react to it. That goes hand-in-hand with the next thing: reflection. It is really easy to reflect Ivy's leaves on-reaction, and once they're reflected, we get great rewards from them. Even the Arm Rotor itself is hard for Ivy to punish, since her CQC game is lacking. We are also one of the few chars who get to gimp tether chars easily and Ivy is free. Just drop a gyro or dropzone fair her.

As for other things, Ivy can be dthrow CG'd at lower %'s, and after that, dthrow combos into usmash. When that stops working, dthrow combos into nair, and when that stops working, she's ready to be killed. Ivy is pretty light and she's fairly floaty. Most of Ivy's moves are also weak and really easy to CC. We can even CC dsmash after absorbing her entire ftilt.

What's left? Oh, Seed Bomb! We can aerial through those.....

Yea I agree we do well against her because with good spam and one good read you can really mess her up. An Ivysaur who has to approach isn't a happy Ivysaur. I like throwing the gyro at her when she is tethering to the ledge and if you beat her with enough fairs she may not make it back. If your having more trouble you do more b-reserves and wavebounces. Also if you don't any of the gyro tech your at a big disadvantage, just do the stuff in this vid: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f7rWtMwZvKY everyone R.O.B should use these techniques.

I think if anything it's more of an even match up due to the early kills that rob can get on her and if we can get it than we can do some damage. For example you mentioned the arm rotor. Sure it's good against the razor leaf due to how slow it approaches,but a good ivy will catch on to it and will counter it with her aerials, which if used effectively will pretty much counter robs arm rotor.

Also I don't really think you can cg her that much considering she's floaty.

Rob can't really spam her either . Yes you can hit her with a laser and throw gyro, but a good ivy will use that gyro to its advantage by using d-air and healing/charging its solar beam. Plus the multi hit on the b-air and reach on both fair and b-air will allow her To hit the gyro when it is thrown at her.

And the seed bombs, if used effectively, can be used to cover the ledge by having 2 thrown almost back to back and they will cover the ledge with b -airs while you're recovering. It's pretty damn hard to recover when all that is being thrown at you consider they can cover the high part and the actual ledge itself with all those options. So I wouldn't necessarily say we can Aerial those.

Ike

Spoiler

I do like ROB vs Ike a lot because it's one of those MUs where I'm allowed to set the pace of the match with gyro and lasers. If Ike tries to attack through or around Gyro, it's easily punished. The best way for him to deal with it, actually, is to QD WD to grab it, then throw it up (not away so we can just refresh a new one). It's not easy to PS our laser, 'cause a good ROB will shoot it when he tries to QD. However, I actually agree about the honesty part. Both sides make each other aware of what they can and can't get away with.

Yoshi

Spoiler

There was also a Yoshi match up thread that went up that I haven't really noticed until now. I don't really know why it needed it's own thread but it is way easier to just link the thread instead of quoting everyone in. Having had to learn the Yoshi match up in 3.02 Yoshi now seems pretty good overall but it is a match up you have to learn how to play. We have a clear advantage in the neutral game and if you don't get too aggro and get baited into a cc or an armored aerial Yoshi will have to directly approach which isn't that good. Having the gyro in hand or on the ground to control his movement is very important. Be careful to bait out Nairs when going for aerial combos and when he is trying to get grounded from above you stall near directly below him to bait his high priority options going down and punish. Fully charged laser can break his double jump armor, which is pretty funny. I would have to put this match up as a slight advantage because of all of this. I don't really like fighting Yoshi from memory but recently playing supposedly good Yoshi's it has been pretty free. I think taking R.O.B against him is a much better bet than most other character's so maybe if we got a non-salty Yoshi main to speak we could maybe put it as a flat out advantage. I can answer questions about this MU if anyone has any.

This thread has the rest http://smashboards.com/threads/vs-yoshi-match-up.401033/

Advantage
Jigglypuff

Spoiler

Personally, I think he's advantageous against Puff, but he still gets comboed a lot by all of these characters when they get in... very handily at that. Puff and Peach can pretty easily control the space that ROB is weak at (which is right in front of him and slightly above, a 45 degree angle) by air speed and float respectively. Laser and gyro are good tools to keep out Peach, kinda, but her turnips are still an amazing projectile and both can also cover ROB's recovering options well off stage while at the same time beating the start up on a lot of his moves sans fair, which has the least amount.

I feel like we probably win against Jigglypuff. Some of our moves just have more range than hers (Bair), we have a Gyro, we can recover really low and from really far away, and we practically match her in aerial mobility with our booster. And we have ridiculous kill power in Nair, Usmash, and Fsmash against her.

Jiggs is free (seriously, just boost around with nairs, she can't stop it as long as you stay vertically staggered from her), for whatever that is worth.

I'd say that he has a disadvantage against Puff since he's a fairly large target with slow tech/getup which makes landing rests on him easier. He also suffers from the disadvantage of his recovery not being "refreshed" on hit, so Puff can edgeguard all she wants.

Peach

Spoiler

well, as a peach main. i can say that the attributes ROB has are the very things that peach has the most trouble with. ROB has ways to exploit peaches speed problems. he can harass her to no end with gyro and lasers, and while her turnips do the same for her, ROB has quicker options to deal wit that. his aerial mobility is on par with peaches because of his boosters, and he can actually cover himself very well from below when u factor in his tilts, laser, and uair. ROB also has something offensively that peach doesnt: he doesnt have to commit to his apporaches. He can easily WL out of booster > ftilt when the peach would have anticipated a boost > fair or bair or smth like that. ROB has the range to deal with peach, and he has ways to exploit her lack of quick mobility options. as ROB, if u are getting FC fair > grab comboed by peach, then u are playing to offensively. you have tools to play her defensive game, and ur quicker and more ranged about it then she is. Peaches greatest attribute is her ability to mix in great defensive game with her great pressure game, which is why she performs well against space animals. but when faced with a character that has the ability to harass peach when she plays defensively (through ROBS stage control options with projectiles and range, and his non committal approach options) then shes going to have a really difficult time getting to you. While peach definitely out performs you up close (which is why, against some characters, you can pull off an agro peach very well), you will only succumb to this once u give her an opportunity to do so. if peach plays offensively against a ROB, and is making it work, then the ROB is not using his projectiles and boosters enough.

When dealing with anything peach related, mobility is always an important factor, and i think ROB just has the right tools to deal with peach.

Peach has one of the best edgeguard games in all of project M. the others that i would consider to be at least at her level would be sheik, jiggs, and DDD. Their ability to pursue characters offstage (with more than just a single jump and hit, like CF for instance) is just unparalleled, as they can chase the opponent, and persist to keep them offstage with large, lingering hitboxes, and still recovery easily. If ROB isnt getting edgeguarded by peach, then the peach player is doing something wrong. all it takes is a couple hits from the peach and ROB is out of boosters, thus garnering a stock. ROBs recovery is also very linear and predictable, so for someone like peach with amazing air mobility with her float, large double jump, and good air speed alike, this is something thats easy to exploit. also, dont think peach is limited to edguarding with turnips. she can chase opponents farther off the stage than i think any other character in the game, even rivaling jiggs in that area. she can get pretty far down below the stage and use her float with nair, bair, maybe even a fair, or even her neutral b counter (GREAT for space animals, btw), and u will be dead from any one of those hits.

What ROB has against peach is the ability to control the stage and limit her already slow mobility, all the while, outranging her, and being able to defend himself when shes above him. a good ROB will be very careful not to get into a position where she can edgeguard him, as it will easily become the stock. ROB has a high weight, and peach is going to have a difficult time killing him outside of offstage antics. it will be harder for ROB to edge guard peach than it is vice versa, but u kill her very easily vertically with nair and upsmash, and u dont have to be offstage for those. in the end, it boils down to the fact that if the ROB is good enough to not let himself get edguarded, then peach is going to have the worse time killing him, and he will kill her far more quickly than she will.

Don't hold down
Abuse the **** out of boost nair and upair juggles, those will be your most reliable damage rackers after low percent
Dthrow to dair is a true combo at low percents on floaties and sets up either a grounded crumple animation from the dair to lead into a fair/bair as you fall back down or into a knockdown which is good if you can set it up on a platform or near the edge.
Also haven't tried it but play around with SH nair in neutral. When ROB comes back around on frames ~22-29 or so he covers a large area in front of himself. It also autocancels on frame 38, so aim to fast fall when his booster comes around horizontally the direction he is facing. Peach should be slow enough to not punish the 13 frames of endlag on the move particularly if you are retreating, and if she's airborne she likely will have a hard time trying to defend against its high priority if you invade her space with it. Don't quote me on this, it's just a theory, but if you want to experiment, there you go.

I believe this is one of the few MUs in ROB's favor. ROB can literally just run away from Peach because she is so slow, and his projectile and zoning game vastly outranges and out-prioritizes hers. Here is a somewhat old match of myself vs a prominent Peach. ROB may have slightly changed since then (and this stage is no longer legal, lolz), but the core concepts and strategy still remain. I'm not really sure why a Peach would ever choose to CP a faster, heavier char to RF, but I guess he was only thinking about his own survivability and not mine. In any case...

Nair is pretty godlike in this MU. Not much Peach can really do to stop it or punish it. Make sure you stay out of Peach's 'danger burst zone' (the area immediately around her) while she's floating. As long as you keep your distance, you can knock her out of that again and again with lasers, fairs, gyros, etc. If Peach is starting to pin you, you can generally use some sort of boost mix-up to safely get past her and rinse and repeat. Things can get bad if you actually let her touch your shield because her pressure is so good (Gohan nearly made me crap my pants during our first match with some of that anime fighter movement and pressure), but if you keep your distance and zone, it's actually pretty easy. DF already covered most of the punishes, and we can kill Peach fairly early. The same can't be said for the converse, though.

Strong Advantage:

Unclear:
Zelda

Spoiler

I played Salem at SKTAR 3 and R.O.B couldn't seem to do nothing to Zelda. Her teledashes and reflector make it so she doesn't have 2 respect your space that much and she can kill so early which really sucks for R.O.B. I would do cross up nairs and not edgeguard her 2 far offstage, maybe grab the ledge than punish. I remember when I played Wario the next match I almost beat him so I really do think its a matchup thing.

EDIT: a HUGE point I left out is the possibility of Shielda. R.O.B has a bad matchup against Shiek and if you should watch yourself fighting Zelda's if you know they use Down-B because you don't want none o' that. Because of this I will leave this matchup as unclear.

I feel Zelda really isn't that bad. Her hitbox priority is annoying, but she's slow, so we can easily get in quickly if she tries something laggy, like planting a Din's. Angle your lasers so you don't have to worry about it coming back at you, and if she doesn't land-cancel Nayru's, its lag can be punished. Also, the moment we send her into the air, like via a grab, we can harass her fairly well. This is also one of the few MUs where uthrow actually does something at high %'s.

Honestly the only complaint I have in the matchup is early kills with f-air/b-air. Also, ROB is a big target so they're easy to land. Also, shield pokes etc etc

I have a 3/3 set wins against Zelda (as ROB) in tournament so far but playing her is always a nail biter for me.

So am I wrong for thinking Zelda counters R.O.B. like crazy? Well, at the least 60:40? Reflector that lasts forever > camp game, she can combo R.O.B. easily at low-mid percents, any of her sweetspotted aerials OoS do good dmg/can kill, and when you do manage to hit her, she's so floaty that you can't get a good string going.

I have no idea how to approach this matchup seeing as how Zelda seemingly has an answer for most of R.O.B.'s strats. JCaesar beat Zhime back in May, so I know it's possible, but I can't wrap my head around it.

Halp?

I've noticed people are overly afraid of using projectiles against characters with reflectors even though you can do it safely it at times, which is probably a big mistake people make against Zelda. She's really floaty so its all about landing nair and you can make getting back down with teleport difficult if you space nair so it will hit many of her options. I would just chip her shield, mostly with fair jabs and some cross up nairs and half commit with my tools with laser, gyro or chasing with boosts until she puts herself into something laggy that's easy to punish like a teleport or neutral B. And since she can anti air very easily you can afford to play a ground game with her since she can't really move around on the ground either and threaten her by holding the gyro, wavedash ftilt, DACUS or side B. And it's your fault if you get hit on one of her throws since they are very easy to react to. It's very playable and I wouldn't feel the need to switch character or whatever unless she uses down B.

I know I have a lot too add but I also don't like to add match ups with only one or in some cases two opinions. I also will only consider quotes that go into detail why it's a good/bad match up.

If you disagree please explain why! Your opinions are very much appreciated!

 

[Dandizzle]

CURRENT DISCUSSION: Did 3.6 change your thoughts on playing against a certain character enough that the number should be changed? Do any match ups stay fairly the same but must be approached from a new angle for success?

 

[MoshJarcus]

I'd say that he has a disadvantage against Puff since he's a fairly large target with slow tech/getup which makes landing rests on him easier. He also suffers from the disadvantage of his recovery not being "refreshed" on hit, so Puff can edgeguard all she wants.

 

[G13_Flux]

i would say advantageous against peach and luig. against peach because of ROBs incredible aerial positioning. hes the one character (actually possibily pit as well) who has tools to really take peach head on in the air, and out do her when it comes to overall aerial mobility and defense. he is also faster than her, and has two projectiles to further hinder her already poor speed. hed be favorable against luigi because of his ground options. with a stage controlling gyro, fast and ranged tilts, icredible air dominance, ROB has tools to hurt luigis mobility where its at its best (ground), and tools to take on luigi where his mobility is worst (air). robs disjointed aerial attacks are great tools to take on luigis good aerial set, but luigi just doesnt have the mobility in the air to do anything but be forced to react to ROB, which gives ROB a better chance to put luigi in disadvantageous positioning.

also, quick question: with the robo boosters having a minimum height of the ground at which they can be performed now from a short hop, can u still do perfect boost fair > jab for shield pressure that will give u frame advantage over a sheild grab? it would help if JCeasar was on this thread cuz he is the one who talked about that before in the last smash mods thread about this.

 

[Juushichi]

He also made a video testing it, it's on his YouTube. I think perfect fair-jab is still disadvantaged on block.

Personally, I think he's advantageous against Puff, but he still gets comboed a lot by all of these characters when they get in... very handily at that. Puff and Peach can pretty easily control the space that ROB is weak at (which is right in front of him and slightly above, a 45 degree angle) by air speed and float respectively. Laser and gyro are good tools to keep out Peach, kinda, but her turnips are still an amazing projectile and both can also cover ROB's recovering options well off stage while at the same time beating the start up on a lot of his moves sans fair, which has the least amount.

More than anything, if you look at ROB in the tilt, recovery and general attack game a little like Samus (especially in regards to ftilt), it becomes more apparent why he struggles with those characters. There's only so much you can zone in these matchups and ROB is fat so he eats it from good punishment options (Peach nair OOS kinda, float spacing, turnip off stage / Puff aerials in general, rest, sometimes pound, LUIGI'S ENTIRE CHARACTER schema).

They were all varying levels of disadvantage in 2.1, though a few people though Puff was even enough. I think Puff might go slightly in our favor now, but it's close. Luigi is probably a bit closer to even and Peach is probably a slight disadvantage now. I have to test a bit more though.

 

[G13_Flux]

well, as a peach main. i can say that the attributes ROB has are the very things that peach has the most trouble with. ROB has ways to exploit peaches speed problems. he can harass her to no end with gyro and lasers, and while her turnips do the same for her, ROB has quicker options to deal wit that. his aerial mobility is on par with peaches because of his boosters, and he can actually cover himself very well from below when u factor in his tilts, laser, and uair. ROB also has something offensively that peach doesnt: he doesnt have to commit to his apporaches. He can easily WL out of booster > ftilt when the peach would have anticipated a boost > fair or bair or smth like that. ROB has the range to deal with peach, and he has ways to exploit her lack of quick mobility options. as ROB, if u are getting FC fair > grab comboed by peach, then u are playing to offensively. you have tools to play her defensive game, and ur quicker and more ranged about it then she is. Peaches greatest attribute is her ability to mix in great defensive game with her great pressure game, which is why she performs well against space animals. but when faced with a character that has the ability to harass peach when she plays defensively (through ROBS stage control options with projectiles and range, and his non committal approach options) then shes going to have a really difficult time getting to you. While peach definitely out performs you up close (which is why, against some characters, you can pull off an agro peach very well), you will only succumb to this once u give her an opportunity to do so. if peach plays offensively against a ROB, and is making it work, then the ROB is not using his projectiles and boosters enough.

When dealing with anything peach related, mobility is always an important factor, and i think ROB just has the right tools to deal with peach.

 

[dettadeus]

I feel like we probably win against Jigglypuff. Some of our moves just have more range than hers (Bair), we have a Gyro, we can recover really low and from really far away, and we practically match her in aerial mobility with our booster. And we have ridiculous kill power in Nair, Usmash, and Fsmash against her.

Peach I think could definitely be even, but I feel like recovering against her would be a huge problem with the MU.

 

[Oracle]

How is peach edgeguarding you? ROB has a ridiculous recovery and can smack turnips with his fair

 

[dettadeus]

Can't smack turnips with Fair if they're falling on you from directly above.

Also wasting boosts to smack turnips with Fair would be rather dumb. I'd rather get hit and keep going up to recover high unless she's right next to the turnip to follow up on it.

 

[G13_Flux]

Peach has one of the best edgeguard games in all of project M. the others that i would consider to be at least at her level would be sheik, jiggs, and DDD. Their ability to pursue characters offstage (with more than just a single jump and hit, like CF for instance) is just unparalleled, as they can chase the opponent, and persist to keep them offstage with large, lingering hitboxes, and still recovery easily. If ROB isnt getting edgeguarded by peach, then the peach player is doing something wrong. all it takes is a couple hits from the peach and ROB is out of boosters, thus garnering a stock. ROBs recovery is also very linear and predictable, so for someone like peach with amazing air mobility with her float, large double jump, and good air speed alike, this is something thats easy to exploit. also, dont think peach is limited to edguarding with turnips. she can chase opponents farther off the stage than i think any other character in the game, even rivaling jiggs in that area. she can get pretty far down below the stage and use her float with nair, bair, maybe even a fair, or even her neutral b counter (GREAT for space animals, btw), and u will be dead from any one of those hits.

What ROB has against peach is the ability to control the stage and limit her already slow mobility, all the while, outranging her, and being able to defend himself when shes above him. a good ROB will be very careful not to get into a position where she can edgeguard him, as it will easily become the stock. ROB has a high weight, and peach is going to have a difficult time killing him outside of offstage antics. it will be harder for ROB to edge guard peach than it is vice versa, but u kill her very easily vertically with nair and upsmash, and u dont have to be offstage for those. in the end, it boils down to the fact that if the ROB is good enough to not let himself get edguarded, then peach is going to have the worse time killing him, and he will kill her far more quickly than she will.

 

[JCaesar]

In my experience, Peach is tough and Jiggs is free (seriously, just boost around with nairs, she can't stop it as long as you stay vertically staggered from her), for whatever that is worth.

ROB's perfect boost fair is -3 on block, so the jab would come out frame 6 after shield stun ends, beating shield grab by one frame (assuming both sides time everything perfectly to the frame, which isn't really feasible without buffer).

 

[JCaesar]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=332574

So can we all agree that ROB is a good character now?

 

[DrinkingFood]

He needs a shine

So can we all agree that ROB is a good character now?

Oh and for the record I never thought ROB was actually bad, only comparatively bad. As in, most characters were better then him. But I'm not so sure about that now, actually, especially after playing around with how easy wavelanding out of side-b out of a fall is now with the robo booster momentum carry and after playing with gyro a lot more. I find more usefulness in the gyro every day, especially now with the new knockback stacking system that can use a gyro on a platform to link a throw at high percents into just about anything. Is it intended for the gyro to disappear after a throw once it stops bouncing? Kinda annoying :/ especially when a character like diddy gets two bananas that linger for ages, and force a tech or roll. For design sake, not balance, I think that should be changed tbh. Or he could just get two gyros

Not asking for changes. Just being sure these things have been considered. PMBR is only so many people, after all.

Spoiler

but IKE I would love to have two gyros, so much potential for stage control and movement via AGT and GT. They could nerf him to hell and back and I wouldn't care, that **** would be legit

 

[dettadeus]

After playing the MU quite a lot in the last couple months and winning tournament sets from switching to it, I feel like ROB solidly beats Marth. We have much stronger gimping tools than he does in the MU and the Gyro messes up his spacing completely. Laser is also good to stop his aerial approaches because there's nothing he can do about it. We die really late unless he gets a tipper, whereas a lot of our moves can end stocks at 120 if we don't gimp him first.

 

[JCaesar]

Lately a lot of people (most notably, Nintendude) have been telling me that ROB feels like a better Marth. He has a similar zoning game, but a much better recovery, a solid projectile game, and far better guaranteed kill options at reasonable %s. Can't say I disagree, but...

Sheik ... ugh ... what do? This matchup is still as frustrating as ever. I feel like I can deal just fine with any other character, but how do you stop this stupid ninja?

 

[Oracle]

Sheik is the perfect weight for rob combos and she gets very little on you. CC all of her moves at early percents. Don't recover low and don't shield too often because robs shield is bad

 

[Juushichi]

Yes, but hitting Sheik is very hard haha. What exactly are you supposed to do to force her to respect you long enough to do things like get grabs?

Also, I've been going back to ROB to handle those annoying Marths. I'd honestly rather play 'Watch vs Sheik atm.

 

[jjvirus]

For me, personally I find the hardest character to fight against is Charizard. I have no idea how to get inside. Nair. d-tilt, ftilt all have stupid range on them, Uair, fair, and bair all are able to juggle ROB and WOP if possible, dthrow tech chasing is always a problem, and his U-throw...that move doesn't make any sense at all.

All I've gathered that seems to be effective is camping until he approaches, but even then powersheilding isn't that hard if they know what they're doing. Our u-throw kills at 125% on normal height ceilings, but otherwise it's such a hassle trying to deal with him.

Any ideas?

 

[Oracle]

In theory charizard is bad but I 2-0'ed the best charizard I know of so i'm not really sure what to think of the matchup. Seems like zard has trouble racking up damage since rob is so floaty, as well as some difficulty landing kill moves. I just rushed him down and got more value from my hits than he did

 

[jjvirus]

In theory charizard is bad but I 2-0'ed the best charizard I know of so i'm not really sure what to think of the matchup

Eh...the Zard playing there missed a handful of opportunities for earlier/easier kills, namely with U-throw, as well as a few times where he missed a few solid punishes. That's just my look on it, though. The Charizard I play against on the regular has a different play style.

Seems like zard has trouble racking up damage since rob is so floaty

Grabs: D-throw can be a ***** if one isn't careful. I've gotten better at avoiding being tech chased, but really all Zard has to do is shield our boosted aerials and then shield grab, which isn't hard because his grab range is ******** long.

Nair: Nair OoS is another solid option Zard has against our aerial assault. If we attack from the front, we get grabbed. If we attack from the back, Nair OoS gets us due to the hitbox starting behind him, and then on top of that it's a pretty lengthy (time wise) attack compared to the rest of Zard's moveset. It's range and hitbox also make it a useful spacing tool and covers his entire body so aside from our projectiles it makes it hard to get inside.

Fair/Bair/Uair: Fair and Bair can be used to WoP ROB if the initial hit is spaced right and we're at a low percentage. By the time we get to a decent kill range (~75%), if we're high enough (relatively a 1/3 of the way towards the ceiling on the average map) a sweetspotted Fair or Bair will kill. Uair is relatively good for basic juggling too.

Dtilt/Ftilt: Aside from Nair, probably Zard's best spacing tools. Ftilit because of its speed, range, and knockback and Dtilit because of range, weird ass hitbox, and decent knockback if sweetspotted. The hitbox on the dtilit is kinda weird for me to deal with cuz if I'm just a little bit off the ground about a character length away from Zard, there's a little area above where Zard's tail physically is where it can still hit you. Idk why. I noticed it yesterday and once my friend found it out he was able to stop some of my shorthop/boost approaches.

Flamethrower: Not as bad as the rest, but if you get caught in it it does have the potential to get a decent 10% of damage.

as well as some difficulty landing kill moves

Grabs: Grab range, grab range, grab range. Stages with low ceilings (Halberd) and stages with high placed platforms close to the ceiling (Yoshi's Story, Norfair, Warioware, Rumble Falls, Battlefield, FoD) we need to avoid. U-Throw is the primary reason I loathe this character, not just for against ROB, but in general. It doesn't make any sense to me. Add on the fact that Zard's grab range is really good, but U-Throw can kill ROB on normal height ceiling stages like FD and SV off the top if we're grabbed at like 95%. That's 30% lower of what our U-throw will kill him at. All Zard has to do is zone and steadily make his way towards us either with his Nair or glide and then grab us. And this is potentially me not knowing how to deal with the move, but I can't figure out how to do DI this move if there is a way. I always seem to fly off in another direction after I'm actually thrown. Sometimes I go straight up, other times I'm sent to the corner or the side knock out zones entirely.

Fair/Bair: Kind of along the lines of what I said before. The WoP isn't really a killing method because we're ROB and we tend to make it back, but like I said before, if the initial hit puts us in a position where we keep getting knocked higher and higher, that last hit if sweetspotted can kill us at fairly low percents. I'm also not sure on this, but I think Fair might have a lingering hitbox? It's nowhere near as long as our Bair, but it was something that caught my eye yesterday when I was playing.

Glide: While it is easy to see coming and relatively easy to avoid, the physics of this move still puzzle me. Probably just something I need more experience with, but if this move does hit it does have the potential to kill if you don't DI it properly.


That's just my two cents, though. Feel free to correct me on anything if I'm wrong.

 

[Juushichi]

ROB is really fat and Chicago doesn't really have a ROB. Rat played 2.1 ROB, iirc... but I mean, yeah.

I know you are amazing Oracle, character inexperience is definitely a factor I think.

ROB being so fat will absolutely be a problem and I think Zard will eventually take advantage of this. If he can get in, that is.

 

[Oracle]

Grabs: D-throw can be a ***** if one isn't careful. I've gotten better at avoiding being tech chased, but really all Zard has to do is shield our boosted aerials and then shield grab, which isn't hard because his grab range is ******** long.

Get better at teching. Just like any tech chase you can mindgame your way out of it. If you do your boost aerials better then you can jab zard out of the grab.

Nair: Nair OoS is another solid option Zard has against our aerial assault. If we attack from the front, we get grabbed. If we attack from the back, Nair OoS gets us due to the hitbox starting behind him, and then on top of that it's a pretty lengthy (time wise) attack compared to the rest of Zard's moveset. It's range and hitbox also make it a useful spacing tool and covers his entire body so aside from our projectiles it makes it hard to get inside.

Don't attack charizard from behind and this isn't a problem. Its a little odd since most characters are weak behind their shields but nair comes out in the back in 4 frames so its really fast.

Fair/Bair/Uair: Fair and Bair can be used to WoP ROB if the initial hit is spaced right and we're at a low percentage. By the time we get to a decent kill range (~75%), if we're high enough (relatively a 1/3 of the way towards the ceiling on the average map) a sweetspotted Fair or Bair will kill. Uair is relatively good for basic juggling too.

Wall of pain? No. You have an airdash so none of those moves are safe on block from straight up spacing. They also can't combo into each other except for at low percents since you can just jump out.

Dtilt/Ftilt: Aside from Nair, probably Zard's best spacing tools. Ftilit because of its speed, range, and knockback and Dtilit because of range, weird *** hitbox, and decent knockback if sweetspotted. The hitbox on the dtilit is kinda weird for me to deal with cuz if I'm just a little bit off the ground about a character length away from Zard, there's a little area above where Zard's tail physically is where it can still hit you. Idk why. I noticed it yesterday and once my friend found it out he was able to stop some of my shorthop/boost approaches.

Dtilt won't hit you if you're a decent height in the air. Ftilt is kind of slow so you should just beat it out with a boost move or crush it with a nair.

Flamethrower: Not as bad as the rest, but if you get caught in it it does have the potential to get a decent 10% of damage.

Flamethrower is terrible. SDI up and jump out

Grabs: Grab range, grab range, grab range. Stages with low ceilings (Halberd) and stages with high placed platforms close to the ceiling (Yoshi's Story, Norfair, Warioware, Rumble Falls, Battlefield, FoD) we need to avoid. U-Throw is the primary reason I loathe this character, not just for against ROB, but in general. It doesn't make any sense to me. Add on the fact that Zard's grab range is really good, but U-Throw can kill ROB on normal height ceiling stages like FD and SV off the top if we're grabbed at like 95%. That's 30% lower of what our U-throw will kill him at. All Zard has to do is zone and steadily make his way towards us either with his Nair or glide and then grab us. And this is potentially me not knowing how to deal with the move, but I can't figure out how to do DI this move if there is a way. I always seem to fly off in another direction after I'm actually thrown. Sometimes I go straight up, other times I'm sent to the corner or the side knock out zones entirely.

That's just you being bad at DI. Most of the time the upthrow's trajectory sends you straight to the corner anyways so its actually better to not DI, since you're already going to the corner. Plus, if you improve the speed/intelligence of your approaches then you wont' get shield grabbed as much. Plus, you actually kill zard around 110% on most stages from dthrow upsmash/nair (not sure on this, JC where you at?)

Fair/Bair: Kind of along the lines of what I said before. The WoP isn't really a killing method because we're ROB and we tend to make it back, but like I said before, if the initial hit puts us in a position where we keep getting knocked higher and higher, that last hit if sweetspotted can kill us at fairly low percents. I'm also not sure on this, but I think Fair might have a lingering hitbox? It's nowhere near as long as our Bair, but it was something that caught my eye yesterday when I was playing.

Uh, with good DI you can always jump out/fair zard out of it. Those moves have a ton of lag before he can jump again. If he overcommits to follow up, then just fly away and get down before he does.

Glide: While it is easy to see coming and relatively easy to avoid, the physics of this move still puzzle me. Probably just something I need more experience with, but if this move does hit it does have the potential to kill if you don't DI it properly.

Don't challenge the glide attack. That move has insane priority and comes out fast, so if you try to challenge the glide zard can just press a on reaction and go through your move. It is not, however, safe on shield, so you can pretty easily shieldgrab or OOS nair or something. Its better just to force him to land with the move than to try and beat it bc of the huge lag/ unsafeness on shield.

I would like to see some videos, but it sounds like your DI needs a bunch of improvement. Who is the charizard you're playing?


@Juu: You really think I had any more zard experience then he had ROB experience?

 

[Oro?!]

Just judging from games outside of that tournament set, and I don't wanna hear no johns, Metroid seemed to be winning the majority of games handily.

 

[Oracle]

I generally don't play very well in friendlies/anything non tournament. Those are for learning, not winning

 

[JCaesar]

About ROB's throw combos on Zard: Charizard is actually the single toughest character in the game to throw combo, due to his weight and floatiness. I haven't tested it much since there isn't much Zard rep in my area, but I'm fairly sure dthrow->usmash doesn't work into kill % (maybe with horrible DI?). Nair might though, I'm not sure.

 

[Oracle]

That makes sense. I was having trouble doing the nair frametrap vs metroid but I thoight he was just at too high percent. Never had him in a good enough position to try the upsmash

 

[metroid1117]

@Juu: You really think I had any more zard experience then he had ROB experience?

I think Juu just meant that we were both learning the match-up as we played it and that if we had more experience, we might've played it differently.

 

[Juushichi]

Yes! Metroid has it right.

Both of you are playing the MU for the first time, so there are some neuances that might have escaped notice. Especially since it was a tournament set.

I initially thought a few of GnW and ROB MUs were easier than they actually were because of MU inexperience. I'm not going to speculate who would have beaten who with MU experience or w/e, but this early in the meta still (especially since regions traveling to play other regions in this game is uncommon), I think it's undeniable that there is still loads of this phenomenon.

 

[bubbaking]

About ROB's throw combos on Zard: Charizard is actually the single toughest character in the game to throw combo, due to his weight and floatiness. I haven't tested it much since there isn't much Zard rep in my area, but I'm fairly sure dthrow->usmash doesn't work into kill % (maybe with horrible DI?). Nair might though, I'm not sure.

Well, now you've got some "Zard rep". I'm pretty sure dthrow > nair works at kill %'s on Zard. I used to do it all the time to John12346, a Zard in my area in NY. I'm pretty sure you also nailed me with it, JC.

Don't challenge the glide attack. That move has insane priority and comes out fast, so if you try to challenge the glide zard can just press a on reaction and go through your move. It is not, however, safe on shield, so you can pretty easily shieldgrab or OOS nair or something. Its better just to force him to land with the move than to try and beat it bc of the huge lag/ unsafeness on shield.

Don't have much to say here, but JC beat me out of glair the last time we played with fsmash, I think. A gyro in the way probably also gives you more time to react due to hitlag. If you're just going to depend on OoS responses, I would say to watch out for glide cancel > grab.

 

[JCaesar]

Yeah, aside from projectiles (which should be obvious), fsmash will always beat glide attack with good spacing, due to the outermost hitbox being unclankable.

 

[Oracle]

zard can mix up the spacing and timing of the glide attack and its too fast to react to. If you get a hard read then its fine, but in general its just better to shield it then punish

 

[JCaesar]

Well, like I said, I don't have much Zard experience yet. But so far I've been able to beat glide attack with fsmash pretty consistently. But yeah, it's probably better to not even challenge it, and just shield and grab or usmash. They both punish harder than fsmash.

 

[Yung Mei]

Popping in over here since this board seems to have more activity than the falcon boards

IMO - Falcon/Rob matchup is probably 45/55 (40/60?) Robs Favor
Rob has projectiles (laser is too damn good vs Falcon) and Top, which is ok
Some of his moves outrange falcons
has an easy job trying to gimp falcon (weak fair is just disappointing to get killed by)

ALTHOUGH

Rob is easy as **** to combo
Might be just the person i played against, but at low percents, easy to connect grabs like fthrow, uthrow, or multiple fthrows
Rob is easy as **** to combo
Falcon can grab the top, and can use it pretty effectively against rob
rob is easy as **** to combo, i cant stress this enough oh god

 

[Oracle]

comboability wise rob is basically samus which is kind of terrible vs falcon also he doesn't have a shield which is even worse

 

[dettadeus]

I feel like vs falcon is probably closer to even than in ROB's favor just because of how stupidly we get combo'd. We do have stupid gimps though, and if Knee doesn't outright KO, ROB can almost always recover from it.

 

[bubbaking]

ROB:Falcon is almost definitely in Falcon's favor, although I don't think it's by much. Last time he posted on the matter (long time ago), JC stated that he thinks Falcon destroys ROB, but the last time I spoke to him personally on the matter, he said he may have altered his opinion a bit.

This MU is similar to Samus:Falcon in Melee. Our advantages, in comparison to that, are that we gimp better (we're like Jiggs offstage, lolz) and we don't get instantly messed up for entering the air at neutral (although Falcon still does better in the air than we do, IMO). Our disadvantages are that we don't have a good OoS option (and Falcon actually has some really SICK shield pressure), and in some ways, our recovery is easier to gimp than Samus' (Samus doesn't run out of bombs, her main recovery has invincibility on start-up, and she has a good sweetspot option; we have none of these things and if we run out of boosts, we're as good as dead).

Keep him out with tilts, fairs, and, when you have room, gyros. Once you strike him down, stay on top of him. TC with more tilts, dsmash, even sideB if you have to, anything to keep him off-balance. When I knock someone down and he misses the tech, I like to mix up between dtilting (which resets the whole TC 'cause it knocks him down again) and walking forwards slowly. If he rolls towards me, I instantly dsmash. If he gets up in place, I ftilt or JC grab. If he techs away, I DA (or sideB at high %'s and/or when I feel like I can't reach him). These options are really easy to react to and ROB has some incredibly rewarding answers to these options in the game. Once Falcon is offstage, gimp him.

The problem with this MU is at neutral. Falcon outmaneuvers us and he can fly at us with high-priority nairs to start a stupid combo. If he traps us in shield, things get ugly. I'm speaking mostly from Melee experience, but between crazy jab pressure, a good grab game, and several ways to cross-us up to bait and punish the shieldgrab, Falcon can really mess one up for throwing up a shield. That's why it's imperative that you keep moving, maintain good positioning, and zone him well with tilts. Against a good player, throwing up your shield and staying in it will get you in a lot of trouble. Sometimes, you just gotta dash or boost away to reset your spacing.

 

[Oracle]

I don't really have trouble with falcons because of how well I can pressure him, but nobody else i've seen play the character is technical enough to do the same sort of thing, so I see why you guys are having trouble with it. abuse his bad oos options and don't play his runaway game and you'll be fine

 

[bubbaking]

Well, I'm not sure what you mean by "technical", but I do go for CC jab pressure if I find myself up in his face. It's something I picked up from playing Samus, and it spreads to every character I play (I have yet to see an Ivy use CC jab pressure like I do regularly). I just really like to poke with tilts with ROB because I'm that slow kind of guy who likes space.

My key question to you is: How do you get Falcon to shield?

 

[Oracle]

like this

 

[bubbaking]

I'm a little confused. I only watched the first match, and your ROB certainly is fast, but I didn't see much of Falcon shielding at all. If anything, my point was being proven. Falcon can just run around and launch himself at you with aerials to stuff things. The few times you got him in shield, he instantly got out. Most of the time, he shieldgrabbed you or nair'd OoS. Idk, I think we're worse OoS than he is...