[v1.1.6] Cranky's Wisdom: A General Diddy Kong Match-Up Discussion Thread!!

[LiL.Will]

Ok so either this project can be huge or it can fail it all depends on us the Diddy players to band together with that being said do your best to also try and get the attention of top level Diddys via Skype,Facebook,Twitter,etc. you get the drill if we put all our effort into this then it will benefit everyone including the top players themselves but if we just stay lazy and not put in any effort into our discussions then nothing amazing will come into fruition...

Now that I got that little motivating post out the way lol without further ado here it is!!!

Order will be based off the 1.1.3 4BR Tier list from now on...(Bayonetta and Corrin may be discussed before anyone else on the list)

Current MU chart:

So here are the rules:

• Your post must be descriptive about the matchup just saying "I think Diddy loses this matchup" is not beneficial and will not be tolerated.
• Posting videos of why you think a matchup is bad/good is a great showcase along with a post giving details in the matchup
• We will be going off of the ratio numbers 10:90 being the worst for Diddy and numbers like 60:40 being considered an advantage for Diddy Kong.
• From now on we will discuss our MUs in a seperate thread to keep this one organized a link will be at the bottom.
• This is now a place for general MU discussions if you have a question about a specific MU post here
• This will also be an index on what MUs we have covered just click on the spoilers or look at the chart.

With all that out the way lets get straight into it!!!!

This weeks discussion is Bayonetta!!

Discuss!

http://smashboards.com/threads/diddy-kong-mu-discussion-week-6-bayonetta.436107/

 

[LiL.Will]

Week #1 - 40:60 Disadvantage

Spoiler: 1.1.4 Sheik

Spoiler: My Write Up on Sheik

Alright so this is going to be a long post but after playing the match-up alot during v1.1.0 then getting in a xton of games in on v1.1.1 I think I can finally weigh in on this MU.

Honestly @ChileZeRo and MVD make this MU look even but Zero still says its at a disadvantage for us. Honestly ever since the addition of Dream Land I have felt that we had an easier chance dealing with this MU since Shiek players can't get rid of Town & City and Halberd.

In the neutral - At first I felt since the loss of our Uair as an approach/spacing tool we lost the neutral but its actually not bad it feels very even as I feel when comes to Shiek vs Diddy in the neutral its more based off on who has the better fundamentals and whos better at carrying the momentum. Momentum is the key word in this MU especially in this state as I feel whoever is better at controlling the neutral in this MU can basically win the match.

On the offensive - Diddy does very well against Shiek once he gets a hit confirm especially since shes a Fastfaller and we even more reward for our buck since shes light. If your combo/pressure game is on point it should be no surprise to get Shiek from 0-50% of of one read/setup/punish.

With the Banana in hand we are even more lethal as every character in general has to respect Diddy with the banana as one whiffed or over commited attack can be a free trip into a smash or a combo for big damage so I advise all Diddy players to really work on controlling their banana game as it really benefits highly in this MU learn to take alot of advantage off of getting the trip as not many characters are privaledge to have that in this game.

I mainly mix up With SHFF'led Fair/Bair with Dtilt for pressure and to feel out the Shiek. I feel Fair should be used more due to its range but it can be very predictable using it over and over which is why you should mix it up with Bairs. Bair is a really great aerial Diddy can do it twice in one short hop and can also mix it up to keep the Shiek honest example: (SH Bair twice to force them to shield then SH Bair once into monkey flip for the grab)

Luckily due to the new shield mechanics Diddy's pressure game is more reliable Dtilts and Fair are more safe on block...as long as you spacing is on point of course.

On the defensive - As I said earlier this MU is heavily momentum based and Shiek can turn the tides in her favor I feel Diddy has a higher damage output but Shieks attacks tend to put characters in great situations for her to frame trap with 50/50 setups and Diddy is no exception a well spaced Fair with Shiek is safe of Shield (unless you have a banana of course) and should be respected if you try to carelessly run in she even cover herself with a buffered jab/dtilt to stuff your approach. Both characters have an amazing grab game so Shiek's should be respected as well as they put you in a very tough position for her to continue a juggle/combo/or get the kill so learn to mix it up when in those situations and dont do something silly like airdodging carelessly.

Edgeguarding Shiek - Obviously Diddy doesn't do well offstage (hes not bad off stage just not amazing as Shiek,Greninja,etc.) again as I said earlier in the post having a great banana game REALLY helps your pressure game not just in this MU of course but in general when Shiek is usually off the stage I try to setup something before she grabs the ledge by either throwing the banana up and Dtilt the ledge, setting it behind me to cover the roll get up,keep it at the ledge in case they do a regular ledge getup, or Shield with it in hand anticipating a ledge release attack. Ledge trumping is also an ideal option to use I have gotten plenty of kills off of Ledgetrump Bair/Dsmash.

When Diddy is off stage - This is tough...VERY tough I mean how can I start? Shiek has Needles,Fair,Bair,Nair,and of course the infamous Bouncing Fish to deal with you off stage. To tell you the truth I rarely recover low actually...I do my very best not to even Up B with Diddy because once you do it especially against a potent Shiek its usually a stock lost.

When Shiek is edgeguarding you - So you made it to the ledge and everything is all good right? Nah that was just the beginning lol Shiek's edgeguarding setups are pretty insane especially if she has fully charged needles. She can do nice setups like Burst Grenade on the ledge to force you to get out of the situation and then punish depending on your option,dtilt you off the ledge, cover your roll with pivot ftilt,catch a ledge jump with Fair...many options just like Diddy. There are ways to get out of course just stay calm and dont over commit and do your best to turn the tides around.

When Shiek has needles - Yeah this deserves its own section as I feel its a BIG deal in this MU. Have you felt like you had space and decided to pull out a banana only when you land you take a whole bunch of needle to the face? Yeah...that can be a pain and good Shiek's will look out for that as the banana is a threat to them one thing I learned from watching ZeRo's Diddy is that sometimes he'll run away do a SH Banana Toss then quickly land and shield. Usually in this situation the Shiek will either throw the needles or pursue you and then throw them once you pick the banana up. What I noticed as a safe option against Shiek is to walk forward and shielding while staying behind the banana. This helps you stay alert to needles without creating an opening for the Shiek player to punish. If she throws the needles you can quickly shield then pick up the banana and handle the situation. Do they do a well spaced Fair instead? Good immediately Fair or Bair out of shield. Did they pick up the banana while Fairing you shield? Even better as they wont be able to retaliate with the banana in their hand until they land to the ground which of course you wont let them do.

Here are some videos of Diddy's winning and losing in the MU to get a visual experience of what to do I feel even the 1.1.0 vids are still helpful as things have changed but they aren't major.

Matches showing a great example of Diddy in control

Matches showing a great example of Shiek in control

Sorry for the long post. It would be nice to also get an input from Shiek players like @ArikadoX. Any input is appreciated.

Spoiler: Diddy Kong's Write up on Sheik

Allow Sheik no time to get on the defensive and keep your momentum up at all times. I believe Diddy is probably the best character to challenge Sheik with. It's definitely not advantageous for us, but very manageable. We just need to keep focussed on getting stage control at all costs, and get the grab punishes whenever an oppertunity strikes. We deal better damage on hit, usually outrange Sheik, and have nice kill setups against them, but we can NEVER afford going off-stage. So it's very manageable, we just need to avoid the ledges and Needles and keep up with their speed, at all cost. Dealing the first damage is also adviced to keep your momentum and mental focus, as well as discourage them and challenge them to adapt to something they aren't used to. If we keep our weaknesses against Sheik in check, I think it;s quite close to 50-50.

Week#2 - 45:55 Slight Disadvantage/Even

Spoiler: Pikachu

As a Pika main I would say that this MU is 40:60 or so in Pika's favor.
Sadly Dddy doesn't have much to counter QA since he doesn't have many meaty moves. And of corse Dddys peanut cant contend with tjol. I would recommend using the banana and spacing you fairs and dtilts since they outrange pika and I have found it hard as a Pikachu to get in due to Dddys range. I would recommend highly pressuring Pikachu so they don't have time to tjolt and try to read their QA's.
Off stage is for sure in pika's favor though so you have to mix up your recovery. Side B loses to a well timed thunder and up b can be easily punished. To try to be as unpredictable as possible.
KO'ing I would say is in pika's favor by a bit. Of corse you can be gimped a low % but at high percent It comes down to getting a read. F smash for diddy and Up Smash for Pika. Each also has a setup with dtilt trip for diddy, and fair to up smash for pika. As long as you DI the up throw and are careful you shouldn't be hit by thunder 2 much. Diddy can kill with back throw near the edge so you have that on them.

So the MU isn't to bad for either but I would say since Diddy doesn't have a solid answer to QA (if the Pika uses it correctly) and because Pika can gimp diddy I would say that he wins the MU.

Pikachu can be difficult to fight, I agree. But it mostly comes because we cannot effectively use Side B as much as we'd like in this matchup due to Pikachu's size. D Tilt and F Air are amazing tools to compensate for though, and in general, we deal out our damage faster than Pikachu as well. We don't exactly have the kill confirms of Pikachu, but our advantage in weight and overall KO power does wonders here. I don't think it's all that bad actually. This matchup should be considered just like the Sheik matchup, we just have a small disadvantage but it's very managable. I'd rank it as 55-45 for Pikachu as it stands now.

Ban wise I think that dreamland and BF are great for pika, as well as Lylat. So ban either BF or dreamland depending on preference and definetly ban Lylat unless you character benefits more.

Good stages are probably T&C, Smashville and DH. T&C is the best for pika on this list.

Week #3 40:60 Disadvantage

Spoiler: Rosalina & Luma

Rosalina & Luma aka the Mongrel horde
Diddy kong has a hard time getting in against rosaluma. Diddy kong does not have alot of moves that bat away luma either. Luckily Side B kick or the grab can knock away luma and this might be Diddy's best move in the MU. That being said you have to think about using it so you dont get baited or using it towards the ledge is good so you can cancel it.

If you get a grab immediately upthrow up air, you dont want to get hit by luma and this is the safest combo. You can juggle luma with up airs to if you get the chance. Spacing is super important in this match up as well.
The banana in this match up can still be used but be careful. You can bait out a gravitational pull and then just punish them with a side b. If Rosaluma get stuck in something like jab, you can jump->throw banana at rosa, or roll behind banana rosa. There are even times where you can jct the banana down at luma and then hit Rosalina.

Rosalina's recovery has no hit box so dont let her get on stage for free. When she comes from the ledge, they like to do dairs onto stage alot so just read the jump from ledge with zdrop banana->dair or if mistimed covers neutral getup/jump.
Diddy gets juggled easily so mix up your landings well with side b, or the side b->peanutcancel reverse or even into another reverse. Sometimes it is just best to reset to ledge though. Rosa also doesnt land very easy too, so try to juggle her with up airs.
Remember roasalina is light, so rage diddy fsmash or even uptilt can kill relatively early.
This match up is super hard, sometimes its best just to kill luma even if you eat a punish. Do not autopilot and Good luck.

Diddy loses 60:40 ;-;

Edit: Look up videos of Zinoto. He is an expert at the MU.

This entire thread is worth reading: http://smashboards.com/threads/struggling-against-rosalina.432468/ (but reply here, not there).

Spoiler: Rosalina & Luma

Yea, whenever I describe the Diddy-Rosa MU I always exaggerate it, but imo it is indeed a losing MU for Diddy albeit prob not by that much. Rosa can edgeguard the life out of Diddy and luma effectively stuffs a lot of Diddy's options onstage. Gravitational pull also just instantly makes us trip if she times it with our banana toss and even if she can't as long as luma is in front of her it'll just absorb it. Our main advantage in this MU is that we can just avoid getting juggled a lot of the time and side obliterates luma; however, Rosa can adjust for this if she's anticipating it. Because she's so floaty and large, 1 fair can easily turn into 3 if we catch her in the air with it. The Angel Drop is also really good against her since ledge jump is such a strong option off the ledge with her. All-in-all it's like -1 for us.

-Zinoto

Week #4 45:55 Slight Disadvantage/Even

Spoiler: Cloud

Diddy is has a really strong anti-air game. He can simply knock ppl out of the air with his aerials really well or trap their landing. I feel like once players get more comfortable playing against Diddy on the ground, Diddy will stop flourishing as hard as he is.

-Zinoto

Cloud probably wins 60:40, even with the nerfs. It might be 55:45, but I doubt it's even.

Cloud has the range to contest and outrange Diddy's fair, and his bair is safe on shield [although Diddy Kong being short helps make bair spacing harder]. Diddy's banana can definitely help him get in, but if Cloud ever catches it and you're not really careful, you could die to banana -> Finishing Touch at 55 [or banana to limit cross slash at the edge at like 75]. Diddy's banana still gives him reliable KO confirms, but it's something to watch out for when Cloud has banana and limit.

Diddy's dtilt is also a great move, but Cloud can always climhazzard OoS it if I'm reading this [https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...a-YF9-VDOhZI/edit?pref=2&pli=1#gid=1805602790 ] right [says it's -9, Cloud climhazzard is frame 7, so frame 8 OoS]. Most don't go for this, cuz if we mess up the timing even a little we eat a meaty punish [side platforms can help mitigate it but just wait for him to push the button, if he starts falling with the helpless flash, follow him and punish], but it's something to be wary of. If you dtilt Cloud out of his up+B startup for being too slow, I'm nearly positive the move has RCO lag, so that should be a really free usmash or probably an fsmash. Cloud has no other moves to punish dtilt on shield except a grab, which nets him usually less than 10% and some limit charge, or possibly banana OoS [if he has it] unless he powershields the move. He can drop shield jab if he thinks Diddy will do repeated dtilts, but that's not a very strong punish either, unless it sets up an edgeguard or he tech chases off it. Climhazzard OoS won't KO unless it's a limit climhazzard tho [unless the growth on Climhazzard's landing hitbox is better than I credit], so I don't think Cloud can KO you for mashing dtilt on shield unless he has limit, a banana, or you're at uthrow KO percents. [DI away from him and you'll live to around 200, maybe longer.] (I think you can maybe space around shieldgrab range anyway? If so, grabs don't even matter OoS unless you're mis-spaced.)

Cloud seems to edgeguard Diddy pretty well, between nair, [limit] blade beam, and dair, but Diddy has some great options for edgeguarding Cloud as well since up+b doesn't snap ledge [>_>] except in limit or at the very start. Being offstage in this MU with your opponent between you and the stage seems pretty bad for either side.

Diddy isn't terrible at landing, but Cloud is really good at juggling. Monkey flip restoring on hit means Cloud almost always has to watch for Monkey Flip as a result, but the moderate startup means it's not as quick an escape as something like bouncing fish. Diddy also has b-reversed popgun airdodge and stuff to get down, but being juggled by Cloud will almost certainly happen more than Diddy mains would like.

Holding shield at high percents means you'll be throw offstage or juggle situation if grabbed [or throw plus limit] (or he'll do something on shield and you can maybe punish it lol), but it's probably better than Sheik's 50-50 to deal with [easier], and it also definitely beats dying to a limit break at 90. Cloud on the other hand can't safely hold shield at high percents because his recovery is weaker, Diddy fthrow is stronger, and Diddy can potentially combo uair from uthrow [at least a 50-50 I think].

Not sure I'm explaining all that well, but the short version is that Diddy has to approach a character with stronger, if less reliable KO moves, that also outranges him. I know JJROCKETS told me that it was one of Diddy's worst MUs pre-patch, and I don't think the Cloud nerfs were enough to really change that.

http://smashboards.com/threads/the-cloud-matchup-is-horrible-for-us.433750/ (More details on Cloud)

(M2K's long description on Anti-Cloud strats)
http://pastebin.com/v9G29KnL

Week #5 50:50 Even

Spoiler: Mario

"Wall him out early with falling aerials to avoid taking 70% off of one grab. Then make sure you get all of your grab confirms." -Zinoto

Spoiler: Mario

"First, the fireballs can be power shielded and it's the easiest way to avoid his follow up. As for the mu, wall him out at low percents. Falling aerials make it really hard for him to approach since his range is so poor. Once you take about 50 damage (or give him enough rage) then you can start to try and grab him. Anything before there's no point in risking it since he can combo you to 70% off of one grab."

Another Mario main here, I'll make some bullet points. Let's start with what Diddy has to watch out for:

Spoiler: Mario

• 
  
  
  • Watch the hell out for his Smashes. If Diddy doesn't AC stuff like F-air and Monkey Flip he will be eating one for sure.
  • Diddy is pretty easy for Mario to combo since he doesn't really have any reliable combo breakers so avoid grabs obviously.
  • Fireball wrecks Diddy's U-special if he isn't careful. Just try to recover out of range of them.
  • Mario doesn't have any super consistent ways of getting Banana but if he does... LOL. Seriously, letting him get it is really bad since he can then confirm into pretty much anything if he hits with it.
  • When Diddy actually dose lose neutral to Mario, it can suck for him because Mario is good at keeping him offstage. Be wary of getting 2-framed by D-tilt and B-aired.

You just really have to be careful of Mario's combo game because Diddy is sort of perfect for it, to be honest. Another thing is that Mario has some kill options that can catch you off guard. Namely B-air which will kill around, like 130% and even earlier with rage. Also, like they said in the Beefy vid, D-throw to F-air can really murder you if you aren't on the lookout for it around 80% - 120% or so depending on rage.

Now for some things Mario has to watch out for that Diddy has:

• 
  
  
  • F-air since it's disjointed and can keep Mario out.
  • Banana is just as annoying for Mario as it is for any character without any reliable way of destroying it (no, Fireball is not reliable for that).
  • Mario is also quite perfect for Diddy's combos the same way Diddy is for his.
  • While Diddy can't dropzone Mario, he has some scary edge-guarding tools that Mario must respect (F-air, B-air, thrown Banana, etc).
  • Diddy definitely has the stronger neutral and that's just something Mario has to accept.

Diddy is good at comboing Mario and hitting him with Banana so that helps a lot. I think where he shines is simply keeping Mario out with his disjoints and good item game as well as racking up damage despite his low overall damage output. The thing is, he definitely nets kills a lot later than Mario percent-wise but Banana confirms are super useful so it kind of balances out.

In my opinion, the MU is 50:50 because both characters can easily abuse the others' weaknesses and both are easy for the other to combo. They also can exploit each others' recoveries quite well. I think it's one of those MUs that is determined by which player outplays the other in that particular game/set.

This is pretty much what I know from my experience with the MU so far. Hope this helps!

Be very careful offstage and around fireballs. If you're really good at spacing fair and stuffing Mario's approach options, some Marios might resort to a less aerial-oriented playstyle (ie more shield grabs, grounded fireballs, tomahawking, etc), which is good for you bc Mario's ground game is awful. Grounded Mario can also help you land banana setups easier, which can lead to kill confirms. To see this at a pro level, watch Ally vs. Zinoto in Michigan. These two go at it very often, and it's a really good showcase of the mu.

Zinoto vs. Ally Analysis thread:
http://smashboards.com/threads/match-analysis-ally-vs-zinoto-sfw-31.435719/[/QUOTE]

http://smashboards.com/threads/match-analysis-ally-vs-zinoto-sfw-31.435719/

Week #6

 

[NotEvenAmatueR]

Hello Diddy mains, on the Pit boards, we're currently discussing the Diddy matchup. If you'd like, please come over and add your opinion on the matchup.

 

[Sonicninja115]

I believe I posted this in the other MU thread but...

Diddy's main weakness is off-stage, in watching videos I rarely see Diddy's approaching shiek off-stage and there are various reasons for that like Fair,BF and Vanish.

On-stage is were diddy has the slight advantage. His banana gives him stage control and his fair has better range then shieks i think. His combo game is also slightly better at certain percents and his aerials deal more damage and kill easier. Having the Banana allows for early kills and with the new shield mechanics Dtilt is beautiful. At smash4ever ZeRo was literally walking up to Vinnie and Dtilting. That is crazy.

I might add more but my consensus is
On-stage 60/40 Diddy's favor
Off-Stage 65/35 Shieks favor
Shiek has better combos to get percent faster
Diddy Kong kills earlier
Total- 60/40 Shiek
or 50/50 if diddy is ahead a stock.

 

[LiL.Will]

Alright so this is going to be a long post but after playing the match-up alot during v1.1.0 then getting in a xton of games in on v1.1.1 I think I can finally weigh in on this MU.

Honestly @ChileZeRo and MVD make this MU look even but Zero still says its at a disadvantage for us. Honestly ever since the addition of Dream Land I have felt that we had an easier chance dealing with this MU since Shiek players can't get rid of Town & City and Halberd.

In the neutral - At first I felt since the loss of our Uair as an approach/spacing tool we lost the neutral but its actually not bad it feels very even as I feel when comes to Shiek vs Diddy in the neutral its more based off on who has the better fundamentals and whos better at carrying the momentum. Momentum is the key word in this MU especially in this state as I feel whoever is better at controlling the neutral in this MU can basically win the match.

On the offensive - Diddy does very well against Shiek once he gets a hit confirm especially since shes a Fastfaller and we even more reward for our buck since shes light. If your combo/pressure game is on point it should be no surprise to get Shiek from 0-50% of of one read/setup/punish.

With the Banana in hand we are even more lethal as every character in general has to respect Diddy with the banana as one whiffed or over commited attack can be a free trip into a smash or a combo for big damage so I advise all Diddy players to really work on controlling their banana game as it really benefits highly in this MU learn to take alot of advantage off of getting the trip as not many characters are privaledge to have that in this game.

I mainly mix up With SHFF'led Fair/Bair with Dtilt for pressure and to feel out the Shiek. I feel Fair should be used more due to its range but it can be very predictable using it over and over which is why you should mix it up with Bairs. Bair is a really great aerial Diddy can do it twice in one short hop and can also mix it up to keep the Shiek honest example: (SH Bair twice to force them to shield then SH Bair once into monkey flip for the grab)

Luckily due to the new shield mechanics Diddy's pressure game is more reliable Dtilts and Fair are more safe on block...as long as you spacing is on point of course.

On the defensive - As I said earlier this MU is heavily momentum based and Shiek can turn the tides in her favor I feel Diddy has a higher damage output but Shieks attacks tend to put characters in great situations for her to frame trap with 50/50 setups and Diddy is no exception a well spaced Fair with Shiek is safe of Shield (unless you have a banana of course) and should be respected if you try to carelessly run in she even cover herself with a buffered jab/dtilt to stuff your approach. Both characters have an amazing grab game so Shiek's should be respected as well as they put you in a very tough position for her to continue a juggle/combo/or get the kill so learn to mix it up when in those situations and dont do something silly like airdodging carelessly.

Edgeguarding Shiek - Obviously Diddy doesn't do well offstage (hes not bad off stage just not amazing as Shiek,Greninja,etc.) again as I said earlier in the post having a great banana game REALLY helps your pressure game not just in this MU of course but in general when Shiek is usually off the stage I try to setup something before she grabs the ledge by either throwing the banana up and Dtilt the ledge, setting it behind me to cover the roll get up,keep it at the ledge in case they do a regular ledge getup, or Shield with it in hand anticipating a ledge release attack. Ledge trumping is also an ideal option to use I have gotten plenty of kills off of Ledgetrump Bair/Dsmash.

When Diddy is off stage - This is tough...VERY tough I mean how can I start? Shiek has Needles,Fair,Bair,Nair,and of course the infamous Bouncing Fish to deal with you off stage. To tell you the truth I rarely recover low actually...I do my very best not to even Up B with Diddy because once you do it especially against a potent Shiek its usually a stock lost.

When Shiek is edgeguarding you - So you made it to the ledge and everything is all good right? Nah that was just the beginning lol Shiek's edgeguarding setups are pretty insane especially if she has fully charged needles. She can do nice setups like Burst Grenade on the ledge to force you to get out of the situation and then punish depending on your option,dtilt you off the ledge, cover your roll with pivot ftilt,catch a ledge jump with Fair...many options just like Diddy. There are ways to get out of course just stay calm and dont over commit and do your best to turn the tides around.

When Shiek has needles - Yeah this deserves its own section as I feel its a BIG deal in this MU. Have you felt like you had space and decided to pull out a banana only when you land you take a whole bunch of needle to the face? Yeah...that can be a pain and good Shiek's will look out for that as the banana is a threat to them one thing I learned from watching ZeRo's Diddy is that sometimes he'll run away do a SH Banana Toss then quickly land and shield. Usually in this situation the Shiek will either throw the needles or pursue you and then throw them once you pick the banana up. What I noticed as a safe option against Shiek is to walk forward and shielding while staying behind the banana. This helps you stay alert to needles without creating an opening for the Shiek player to punish. If she throws the needles you can quickly shield then pick up the banana and handle the situation. Do they do a well spaced Fair instead? Good immediately Fair or Bair out of shield. Did they pick up the banana while Fairing you shield? Even better as they wont be able to retaliate with the banana in their hand until they land to the ground which of course you wont let them do.

Here are some videos of Diddy's winning and losing in the MU to get a visual experience of what to do I feel even the 1.1.0 vids are still helpful as things have changed but they aren't major.

Matches showing a great example of Diddy in control

Matches showing a great example of Shiek in control

Sorry for the long post. It would be nice to also get an input from Shiek players like @ArikadoX. Any input is appreciated.

 

[Bullys]

Great write up LiL.Will don't apologize for a long post, really covers the match up and all information and resources you could want.

At its simplest, as most have mentioned, the match up is the neutral and the offstage - diddy has a great chance to compete in the neutral with banana and the ability to get rolling, but being offstage and getting back to neutral is a pain (or getting momentum back from that).

 

[Diddy Kong]

Allow Sheik no time to get on the defensive and keep your momentum up at all times. I believe Diddy is probably the best character to challenge Sheik with. It's definitely not advantageous for us, but very manageable. We just need to keep focussed on getting stage control at all costs, and get the grab punishes whenever an oppertunity strikes. We deal better damage on hit, usually outrange Sheik, and have nice kill setups against them, but we can NEVER afford going off-stage. So it's very manageable, we just need to avoid the ledges and Needles and keep up with their speed, at all cost. Dealing the first damage is also adviced to keep your momentum and mental focus, as well as discourage them and challenge them to adapt to something they aren't used to. If we keep our weaknesses against Sheik in check, I think it;s quite close to 50-50.

 

[TimeMuffinPhD]

Alright so this is going to be a long post but after playing the match-up alot during v1.1.0 then getting in a xton of games in on v1.1.1 I think I can finally weigh in on this MU.

Honestly @ChileZeRo and MVD make this MU look even but Zero still says its at a disadvantage for us. Honestly ever since the addition of Dream Land I have felt that we had an easier chance dealing with this MU since Shiek players can't get rid of Town & City and Halberd.

In the neutral - At first I felt since the loss of our Uair as an approach/spacing tool we lost the neutral but its actually not bad it feels very even as I feel when comes to Shiek vs Diddy in the neutral its more based off on who has the better fundamentals and whos better at carrying the momentum. Momentum is the key word in this MU especially in this state as I feel whoever is better at controlling the neutral in this MU can basically win the match.

On the offensive - Diddy does very well against Shiek once he gets a hit confirm especially since shes a Fastfaller and we even more reward for our buck since shes light. If your combo/pressure game is on point it should be no surprise to get Shiek from 0-50% of of one read/setup/punish.

With the Banana in hand we are even more lethal as every character in general has to respect Diddy with the banana as one whiffed or over commited attack can be a free trip into a smash or a combo for big damage so I advise all Diddy players to really work on controlling their banana game as it really benefits highly in this MU learn to take alot of advantage off of getting the trip as not many characters are privaledge to have that in this game.

I mainly mix up With SHFF'led Fair/Bair with Dtilt for pressure and to feel out the Shiek. I feel Fair should be used more due to its range but it can be very predictable using it over and over which is why you should mix it up with Bairs. Bair is a really great aerial Diddy can do it twice in one short hop and can also mix it up to keep the Shiek honest example: (SH Bair twice to force them to shield then SH Bair once into monkey flip for the grab)

Luckily due to the new shield mechanics Diddy's pressure game is more reliable Dtilts and Fair are more safe on block...as long as you spacing is on point of course.

On the defensive - As I said earlier this MU is heavily momentum based and Shiek can turn the tides in her favor I feel Diddy has a higher damage output but Shieks attacks tend to put characters in great situations for her to frame trap with 50/50 setups and Diddy is no exception a well spaced Fair with Shiek is safe of Shield (unless you have a banana of course) and should be respected if you try to carelessly run in she even cover herself with a buffered jab/dtilt to stuff your approach. Both characters have an amazing grab game so Shiek's should be respected as well as they put you in a very tough position for her to continue a juggle/combo/or get the kill so learn to mix it up when in those situations and dont do something silly like airdodging carelessly.

Edgeguarding Shiek - Obviously Diddy doesn't do well offstage (hes not bad off stage just not amazing as Shiek,Greninja,etc.) again as I said earlier in the post having a great banana game REALLY helps your pressure game not just in this MU of course but in general when Shiek is usually off the stage I try to setup something before she grabs the ledge by either throwing the banana up and Dtilt the ledge, setting it behind me to cover the roll get up,keep it at the ledge in case they do a regular ledge getup, or Shield with it in hand anticipating a ledge release attack. Ledge trumping is also an ideal option to use I have gotten plenty of kills off of Ledgetrump Bair/Dsmash.

When Diddy is off stage - This is tough...VERY tough I mean how can I start? Shiek has Needles,Fair,Bair,Nair,and of course the infamous Bouncing Fish to deal with you off stage. To tell you the truth I rarely recover low actually...I do my very best not to even Up B with Diddy because once you do it especially against a potent Shiek its usually a stock lost.

When Shiek is edgeguarding you - So you made it to the ledge and everything is all good right? Nah that was just the beginning lol Shiek's edgeguarding setups are pretty insane especially if she has fully charged needles. She can do nice setups like Burst Grenade on the ledge to force you to get out of the situation and then punish depending on your option,dtilt you off the ledge, cover your roll with pivot ftilt,catch a ledge jump with Fair...many options just like Diddy. There are ways to get out of course just stay calm and dont over commit and do your best to turn the tides around.

When Shiek has needles - Yeah this deserves its own section as I feel its a BIG deal in this MU. Have you felt like you had space and decided to pull out a banana only when you land you take a whole bunch of needle to the face? Yeah...that can be a pain and good Shiek's will look out for that as the banana is a threat to them one thing I learned from watching ZeRo's Diddy is that sometimes he'll run away do a SH Banana Toss then quickly land and shield. Usually in this situation the Shiek will either throw the needles or pursue you and then throw them once you pick the banana up. What I noticed as a safe option against Shiek is to walk forward and shielding while staying behind the banana. This helps you stay alert to needles without creating an opening for the Shiek player to punish. If she throws the needles you can quickly shield then pick up the banana and handle the situation. Do they do a well spaced Fair instead? Good immediately Fair or Bair out of shield. Did they pick up the banana while Fairing you shield? Even better as they wont be able to retaliate with the banana in their hand until they land to the ground which of course you wont let them do.

Here are some videos of Diddy's winning and losing in the MU to get a visual experience of what to do I feel even the 1.1.0 vids are still helpful as things have changed but they aren't major.

Matches showing a great example of Diddy in control

Matches showing a great example of Shiek in control

Sorry for the long post. It would be nice to also get an input from Shiek players like @ArikadoX. Any input is appreciated.

Not to backtrack too much here, but I was just wondering your opinion on stages regarding this matchup?

 

[Diddy Kong]

I think platforms are gonna be advantageous vs Sheik. Battlefield, Village & Town, Smash Ville, those are the sort of stages we should try challenge Sheik on.

 

[TimeMuffinPhD]

I think platforms are gonna be advantageous vs Sheik. Battlefield, Village & Town, Smash Ville, those are the sort of stages we should try challenge Sheik on.

Agreed, the more safe recovery options we have the better. Although they do benefit Sheik aswell, they're much better for us considering our edgeguarding situation. What should we be banning? Lylat, FD, Duck Hunt?

 

[Sonicninja115]

I will add on to this post later and make it look all pretty, but for now...

This MU is probable 60/40 Pikachu's favor.

Reasons:
Pikachu can gimp diddy rather easily, and he is too short for SH Fair to be properly utilized. Thunder jolt is also a pain to deal with as it destroys banana. Combos aren't quite as good as usual on account of Pikachu's small size.

 

[Bullys]

To mirror Sonicninja115 - Picachu's size and speed make it a quite frustrating match up.

Tough to combo him, pain in the behind if he looks to just play the keep away game with neutral b, which makes it hard to get anything for me off banana or approaches. Another match up which is not good off stage, Picachu has a lot of options and great recovery (and damn quick).

 

[TimeMuffinPhD]

I agree with everything said about Pika so far, it's a difficult mu for sure. I haven't played it too much, but I think we benefit from holding the banana and punishing Pika oos for risky approaches - not that he has many of those, but they can be predictable.

 

[LightswornKing]

As a Pka main I would say that this MU is 40:60 or so in Pika's favor.
Sadly Dddy doesn't have much to counter QA since he doesn't have many meaty moves. And of corse Dddys peanut cant contend with tjol. I would recommend using the banana and spacing you fairs and dtilts since they outrange pika and I have found it hard as a Pikachu to get in due to Dddys range. I would recommend highly pressuring Pikachu so they don't have time to tjolt and try to read their QA's.
Off stage is for sure in pika's favor though so you have to mix up your recovery. Side B loses to a well timed thunder and up b can be easily punished. To try to be as unpredictable as possible.
KO'ing I would say is in pika's favor by a bit. Of corse you can be gimped a low % but at high percent It comes down to getting a read. F smash for diddy and Up Smash for Pika. Each also has a setup with dtilt trip for diddy, and fair to up smash for pika. As long as you DI the up throw and are careful you shouldn't be hit by thunder 2 much. Diddy can kill with back throw near the edge so you have that on them.

So the MU isn't to bad for either but I would say since Diddy doesn't have a solid answer to QA (if the Pika uses it correctly) and because Pika can gimp diddy I would say that he wins the MU.

 

[TimeMuffinPhD]

Played against a Pika in WF's and GF's today. I made sure to ban Lylat, FD or Dreamland and it worked out nicely for me. Smashville is probably his best choice at that point. I got my kills from readings habits such as QAC stuff, that's how I won a lot of neutral trades too - reading QAC's with multiple f-airs - backed him into a corner and setup banana traps. Watch out for that f-smash animation, looks punishable but totally isn't. Offstage I just side-b'd a lot, fully charged up-b otherwise and mixed up my trajectory. You really don't wanna hit Pika's shield, so don't get too side-b heavy, try conditioning with double b-airs, then do a single one into side-b kick. A good banana setup to edge-guard is leave one at the ledge, then read the QAC past the banana with a pivot f-smash. This is a hard matchup, if the Pika adapted better I would be in trouble.

 

[LiL.Will]

I think platforms are gonna be advantageous vs Sheik. Battlefield, Village & Town, Smash Ville, those are the sort of stages we should try challenge Sheik on.

TimeMuffinPhD
Basically this. For stage striking I try to lure them to Dream Land or Smashville. Avoid Lylat Cruise,Battlefield/Miiverse (due to the ceiling height),and Final Destination (Town and City is a better alternative). For counter-pick stages I like Halberd,Delfino Plaza, and recently Castle Siege. I know MVD used Castle Siege against Mr.R as thats like a Florida/Georgia thing but the second transformation makes Needles basically useless and im not scared of getting Fair'd off the stage for some reason lol.

 

[MoosyDoosy]

Keep your banana next to you against QA. :/ Pika's are super frustrating. The best I've come up with is just trying to stop them from getting close with spaced Fairs but QA ruins that lol. The banana helps that from happening.

 

[Sonicninja115]

Keep your banana next to you against QA. :/ Pika's are super frustrating. The best I've come up with is just trying to stop them from getting close with spaced Fairs but QA ruins that lol. The banana helps that from happening.

Esam made a video on how to deal with QA, if you haven't seen it yet you should go to his YouTube channel and check it out.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Pikachu can be difficult to fight, I agree. But it mostly comes because we cannot effectively use Side B as much as we'd like in this matchup due to Pikachu's size. D Tilt and F Air are amazing tools to compensate for though, and in general, we deal out our damage faster than Pikachu as well. We don't exactly have the kill confirms of Pikachu, but our advantage in weight and overall KO power does wonders here. I don't think it's all that bad actually. This matchup should be considered just like the Sheik matchup, we just have a small disadvantage but it's very managable. I'd rank it as 55-45 for Pikachu as it stands now.

 

[Bullys]

Think its really productive to also talk about the stages to go to and not go to in the match ups like it was mentioned with shiek. Its a part of the match up in itself.

So where do people feel we should be taking pica, and looking to ban (if possible, reasoning as well, as it will give the less informed like myself a leg up on the learning curve)

 

[Sonicninja115]

Think its really productive to also talk about the stages to go to and not go to in the match ups like it was mentioned with shiek. Its a part of the match up in itself.

So where do people feel we should be taking pica, and looking to ban (if possible, reasoning as well, as it will give the less informed like myself a leg up on the learning curve)

Ban wise I think that dreamland and BF are great for pika, as well as Lylat. So ban either BF or dreamland depending on preference and definetly ban Lylat unless you character benefits more.

Good stages are probably T&C, Smashville and DH. T&C is the best for pika on this list.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Platforms like those on SV are bad for us I think, because it assist Pikachu in his recovery better than it does for us. And the best advantage Diddy has over Pikachu is his ability to finish off Pikachu faster because of weight and overall KO power. So we shouldn't be helping them out getting back by picking Smash Ville. Tho the problem COULD help escape Thunder grab combos. So it's kind of a double edged sword. Town & City is better for us. Not too sure about Lylat.

 

[LiL.Will]

Glad you guys are keeping the discussion going I'll be updating this soon tonight.

 

[Bullys]

Glad you guys are keeping the discussion going I'll be updating this soon tonight.

I think (and I'll likely be doing this a lot by asking them) encouraging questions is good - not everything in these match up threads needs to be information and I think some posters with less experience in the game feel daunted by it.

For example if you have trouble with a specific match up, its a great place to ask as more experienced players will give an overview and maybe take for granted things. For example - the stage concept - its great to know where to go, but why is another deal - what are you looking for in the stage.

So yeah, even if its just me, asking questions hopefully will keep people more active - and I can just leech off your knowledge!

 

[HammyHowell]

Opinions
So if we are talking pikachu. I think it would be best to ban lylat, I think pika gets a lot out of the stage with qac + no fear of being gimped really, and it can really mess diddy up. if not lylat then probably battlefield.

I have played a couple times against pikachu, and I just think Diddy has to be careful and wait for pikachu to mess up/over commit on something and also try to read the quick attacks.
Couple pros: Pikachu is light. and diddy can try to out range pika with tilts/ariels. Banana is always good.
Couple cons: Thunderjolt is a real good projectile for pika. quick attack is frustrating. pika combo game is pretty good. pika can edge gaurd the crap out of diddy. This could be done with thunder jolt or falling off back air for low recovering, down b can be used too.

Always want the banana and if the pika quick attacks your shield, then they are about to meet a mean punish.
I think if you are too close to pikachu/mispace, then pika will get a greater damage output. pika gets alot out of grab and it's ariels that seem to lead into more ariels+do pressure. Diddy kong at a slight distance is good to out range pika, and punish unsafe options with ariel/banana. Diddy far away I think will have to work a bit more because of thunderjolt, but you can just shield that and use your mobility options. Banana is so important, if one of pikachu's multi hitting ariels hit your shield, then you can just continue to shield it and punish real hard. If you go percent for percent on pikachu you can kill with uptilt at like 120%

In the end im not really sure about who wins.
So I think diddy loses overall. 45:55...?

 

[HammyHowell]

Thread dont die pls.

 

[Sonicninja115]

For some reason it hassn't been updated in a while, thus no discussion has been able to happen.

 

[LiL.Will]

Going to revive this thread soon so bumping it for now...

 

[LiL.Will]

Week#3 Updated!!! Rosalina & Luma!!

 

[HammyHowell]

Rosalina & Luma aka the Mongrel horde
Diddy kong has a hard time getting in against rosaluma. Diddy kong does not have alot of moves that bat away luma either. Luckily Side B kick or the grab can knock away luma and this might be Diddy's best move in the MU. That being said you have to think about using it so you dont get baited or using it towards the ledge is good so you can cancel it.

If you get a grab immediately upthrow up air, you dont want to get hit by luma and this is the safest combo. You can juggle luma with up airs to if you get the chance. Spacing is super important in this match up as well.
The banana in this match up can still be used but be careful. You can bait out a gravitational pull and then just punish them with a side b. If Rosaluma get stuck in something like jab, you can jump->throw banana at rosa, or roll behind banana rosa. There are even times where you can jct the banana down at luma and then hit Rosalina.

Rosalina's recovery has no hit box so dont let her get on stage for free. When she comes from the ledge, they like to do dairs onto stage alot so just read the jump from ledge with zdrop banana->dair or if mistimed covers neutral getup/jump.
Diddy gets juggled easily so mix up your landings well with side b, or the side b->peanutcancel reverse or even into another reverse. Sometimes it is just best to reset to ledge though. Rosa also doesnt land very easy too, so try to juggle her with up airs.
Remember roasalina is light, so rage diddy fsmash or even uptilt can kill relatively early.
This match up is super hard, sometimes its best just to kill luma even if you eat a punish. Do not autopilot and Good luck.

Diddy loses 60:40 ;-;

Edit: Look up videos of Zinoto. He is an expert at the MU.
Edit: why is this MU discussion not stickied? Btw awesome chart that you have started.

 

[LiL.Will]

HammyHowell Thanks man I really appreciate that I wanted this thread to be pretty yet easily accesible and resourceful as possible with vids,detailed descriptions on what Diddy should do,and detailed descriptions on what the character will do to us and how to avoid/or nulliy it.

Great write up on the Rosa MU

 

[Pazx]

I don't have much to say on this matchup but I do want to talk about moves that launch Luma.

Somebody here made a thread recently, saying that Uair and Nair launch luma at 0%, and bair launches Luma once it's lost a little bit of health, and fair doesn't launch Luma until it has low health. This is stuff I didn't know and it's super important for the matchup, if you're trying to carry Luma offstage make sure to use uairs and then backairs instead of forward airs.

What other moves launch Luma, and how much health can Luma have to still be launched by these moves? Let's think about useful usable moves eg. when does utilt launch luma, when does dsmash launch luma, when does ftilt launch luma, etc etc

Here's the post:

Up air does require strange positioning but it does knock back luma and pops her up for follow ups even when luma hasn't taken any damage. With some more practice, I have found that nair does the trick much better than up air when luma is on the ground. Plus this lets you get up air follow ups right away. When luma is at 0%, fast fall nair to up air to up air works well to get her off stage. However, nair on rosalina's shield is pretty unsafe so be careful with this one.

Unfortunately, fair is pretty bad to get luma offstage. It only applies knock back to luma when luma has about half of her health gone. Back air applies knock back slightly sooner than forward air. It seems the main tools to get rid of luma are flip kick which can be very unsafe, command grab, neutral air, and up air.

This entire thread is worth reading: http://smashboards.com/threads/struggling-against-rosalina.432468/ (but reply here, not there).

 

[LiL.Will]

@Dabuz Please lend us your knowledge from Rosa's POV it would be extremely helpful

 

[LiL.Will]

Week #4 updated!!! Cloud Strife!!!

 

[Thor]

Cloud probably wins 60:40, even with the nerfs. It might be 55:45, but I doubt it's even.

Cloud has the range to contest and outrange Diddy's fair, and his bair is safe on shield [although Diddy Kong being short helps make bair spacing harder]. Diddy's banana can definitely help him get in, but if Cloud ever catches it and you're not really careful, you could die to banana -> Finishing Touch at 55 [or banana to limit cross slash at the edge at like 75]. Diddy's banana still gives him reliable KO confirms, but it's something to watch out for when Cloud has banana and limit.

Diddy's dtilt is also a great move, but Cloud can always climhazzard OoS it if I'm reading this [ https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...a-YF9-VDOhZI/edit?pref=2&pli=1#gid=1805602790 ] right [says it's -9, Cloud climhazzard is frame 7, so frame 8 OoS]. Most don't go for this, cuz if we mess up the timing even a little we eat a meaty punish [side platforms can help mitigate it but just wait for him to push the button, if he starts falling with the helpless flash, follow him and punish], but it's something to be wary of. If you dtilt Cloud out of his up+B startup for being too slow, I'm nearly positive the move has RCO lag, so that should be a really free usmash or probably an fsmash. Cloud has no other moves to punish dtilt on shield except a grab, which nets him usually less than 10% and some limit charge, or possibly banana OoS [if he has it] unless he powershields the move. He can drop shield jab if he thinks Diddy will do repeated dtilts, but that's not a very strong punish either, unless it sets up an edgeguard or he tech chases off it. Climhazzard OoS won't KO unless it's a limit climhazzard tho [unless the growth on Climhazzard's landing hitbox is better than I credit], so I don't think Cloud can KO you for mashing dtilt on shield unless he has limit, a banana, or you're at uthrow KO percents. [DI away from him and you'll live to around 200, maybe longer.] (I think you can maybe space around shieldgrab range anyway? If so, grabs don't even matter OoS unless you're mis-spaced.)

Cloud seems to edgeguard Diddy pretty well, between nair, [limit] blade beam, and dair, but Diddy has some great options for edgeguarding Cloud as well since up+b doesn't snap ledge [>_>] except in limit or at the very start. Being offstage in this MU with your opponent between you and the stage seems pretty bad for either side.

Diddy isn't terrible at landing, but Cloud is really good at juggling. Monkey flip restoring on hit means Cloud almost always has to watch for Monkey Flip as a result, but the moderate startup means it's not as quick an escape as something like bouncing fish. Diddy also has b-reversed popgun airdodge and stuff to get down, but being juggled by Cloud will almost certainly happen more than Diddy mains would like.

Holding shield at high percents means you'll be throw offstage or juggle situation if grabbed [or throw plus limit] (or he'll do something on shield and you can maybe punish it lol), but it's probably better than Sheik's 50-50 to deal with [easier], and it also definitely beats dying to a limit break at 90. Cloud on the other hand can't safely hold shield at high percents because his recovery is weaker, Diddy fthrow is stronger, and Diddy can potentially combo uair from uthrow [at least a 50-50 I think].

Not sure I'm explaining all that well, but the short version is that Diddy has to approach a character with stronger, if less reliable KO moves, that also outranges him. I know JJROCKETS told me that it was one of Diddy's worst MUs pre-patch, and I don't think the Cloud nerfs were enough to really change that.

 

[Sonicninja115]

LiL.Will would you be averse to creating a new character specific MU thread each week? Like what the Mewtwo boards do?

 

[LiL.Will]

LiL.Will would you be averse to creating a new character specific MU thread each week? Like what the Mewtwo boards do?

Yeah I don't mind it would help make this thread more organized.

 

[Sonicninja115]

I will talk to Pazx and find out how this will work. We are going to try to replicate what the Mewtwo boards are doing. So this will be the main thread, with a bunch of subsidiaries. It makes it easier to find stuff. So basically, I lock this thread or title it General MU, and then you post a new MU thread every week on a new character, linking it back to the OP. You can still organize everything if you want too, this format just encourages people to come because of the notifications and stuff. Is this alright?

 

[LiL.Will]

Yeah it's cool man

 

[LiL.Will]

Week #4 has ended!!! On to Week #5 with

http://smashboards.com/threads/diddy-kong-mu-discussion-week-5-mario.435718/