Undertale Mafia, 13 man! Game over! Town wins!

[ranmaru]

Re-posting this because I want others to comment on this.

Scum #2 is Rake. I feel Rake's Koop push is out of place and has no actual basis on finding scum. Everything else is noise to me. I think his emotional reaction to most votes and pressure is forced. His shift from being calm to yelling in caps was forced. His push on me is opportunistic, and his claim feels weird given that there was a deadline extension. I don't understand why he's still voting me when I explained why I have chosen JD, and I don't understand why he'd think that would be something suspicious.

Spoiler

Summary:​

1. His Koop push is out of place.
2. His emotional reaction to D1 votes seemed forced. (#346 and #347)
3. His shift from calm to upset seemed extremely forced. (From #528 to #529)
4. His push on me was and is opportunistic, considering he didn't have a problem with me yesterday. (#656)
5. His reasoning to push me is very weak and faulty. He knew I stated that I would look into JD.
6. Timing of claim is weird. (#551)
7. Results do not match what action stated he would get.

Unvote; Vote: Rake

I am willing to lynch both Rake and Gheb.

 

[ranmaru]

Spak : Let's have that talk now.
#HBC | Kary : I answered your question now. What are your scumreads? What are your reads in general?
@SangfroidWarrior: Let's talk.
@#HBC | J: Let's talk.
Jdietz43 : Thoughts on my case? Any comments on current events?
@TheKingofKoopas: Thoughts on my case, and update on your reads?

 

[ranmaru]

ranmaru
I hope that also clears up some of the things I kept you waiting on? Specficially my current opinions on Rake and J.

I understand that you say that your rake read depends on J, but can you look at Rake individually, and tell me what you think of my #761?

 

[Shun Goku Satsu Rake]

I find it opportunistic. I dislike him. I'll give a more in-depth read on him once he responds to my #674 and to you.

how is it opportunistic at all. you're not a popular wagon. no one else was saying "man remember how ****ty soup was, we should lynch ran now" my dislike of you started yesterday so to call my push opportunistic is a giant misnomer

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I think Rake can die and is an OK lynch.

I don't care for your case on him. It doesn't affect my opinion on him.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

EBWOP: I may change my mind though if I actually read his most recent posts? Stay tuned!

 

[Shun Goku Satsu Rake]

Kary, I have been asking Rake questions to see how he'd react. He took a long time between each interaction. Once seeing his push I realized he was scum here. His opportunistic push along with his forced emotion yesTerday makes sense from a scum perspective.

f you honestly believed i forced that then idk. Also, it takes a long time to respond when im not online lol. Work'll do that

 

[Shun Goku Satsu Rake]

I have been waiting for the top of the page to post this case, and for Rake. Since he's taking quite a while to respond, I'll post this now. I think I have enough to garner a solid read on him.

Scum #2 isRake. I feel Rake's Koop push is out of place and has no actual basis on finding scum. Everything else is noise to me. I think his emotional reaction to most votes and pressure is forced. His shift from being calm to yelling in caps was forced. His push on me is opportunistic, and his claim feels weird given that there was a deadline extension. I don't understand why he's still voting me when I explained why I have chosen JD, and I don't understand why he'd think that would be something suspicious.

Spoiler

Summary:​

1. His Koop push is out of place.
2. His emotional reaction to D1 votes seemed forced. (#346 and #347)
3. His shift from calm to upset seemed extremely forced. (From #528 to #529)
4. His push on me was and is opportunistic, considering he didn't have a problem with me yesterday. (#656)
5. His reasoning to push me is very weak and faulty. He knew I stated that I would look into JD.
6. Timing of claim is weird. (#551)
7. Results do not match what action stated he would get.

Unvote; Vote: Rake

I am willing to lynch both Rake and Gheb.

How do my results not match exactly lol ? Are you sure you understand what it is i claimed and what a regular voyuer would even do ? because i don't think you do lol

 

[Shun Goku Satsu Rake]

Vote J
Im bashing my head into a wall with ran.

Ran, tell me how my push on koop was out of place exactly ? What's a "in the right place " push ? Who should i have been pushing exactly ?

 

[Shun Goku Satsu Rake]

Also, i call bs on #4, i literally said the words yesterday that your catch up did nothing to change my low opinion of soup lol. i mean unless you literally glazed over that. Also, i had nothing left to do yesterday other than claim so your assertion that its "weird" is wifom

 

[#HBC | Kary]

Right now my biggest problem is that I think there was something fishy going on earlier in the Day, between J and Kantrip, and to a lesser extent, Joey and Soup. It seems as though that has all blown over now and no-one has anything to say about it, but I find it hard to believe that the whole thing, all of it, was TvT.

Kary, if you've re-read, would you mind coming back to this and explaining more of your thought process from D1?

The thought process is not very complicated: I felt it was unusual that Kantrip & J had a fight in the early game, but no-one came out of it as a candidate for lynch. Usually when there's an argument in RVS, someone comes out looking the scummier one. You could say I had a 'gut feeling' that someone in that bunch was scum. Of course, we've seen Kantrip & Joey flip- but:

#1: Maybe you could say that soup was going to come out of that storm in line for a lynch, but he avoided that by disappearing / replacing out.

#2 Maybe J was being deliberately non-confrontational with Kantrip (J spends all Day describing him as 'weird' rather than saying anything was 'scummy'):

Kanty seems weird to me this game. What do you make of him?

Sadly, this is in line with a lot of your play this game which is strange and a whole lot not making a lot sense. *shrug*

Anyways, consider it explained.

 

[Spak]

The church is scummy
Kary started the church
therefore Kary is scummy.

That's part of it (don't use RVS as an excuse, you said that it was a serious endeavor) as well as you giving a free town pass to everyone who was in the Kult on your read lists (like having tHE-MAN as a town lean), but at this point in the game, I'm not too concerned about much related to the Kult. I'm worried about your response to my line of questioning about the Kult being generally condescending to my slot and having no legit rebuttal other than "You don't know what you're talking about" when I was questioning you (not something I remember seeing from you in RoDG or Gheb's JR), you have been following popular lynches without adding much content or insight, you contradicted yourself twice during questioning (showing bad response to pressure), you voted with little to no reason, and have drastically changed reads between lists with little to no explanation. I've seen the most scummy intent from you of any slot this game and I think you're the best option for today. I went away for the night intermission after submitting my action and took a break from Mafia, and upon re-read, I still think your slot is scummy.

Also, just realized that I stopped the shedding tears list halfway through because I realized it was a garbage way to analyze stuff and just gave a read list in my 379; I thought I deleted the tears statement. Whoops, lol.

 

[#HBC | Kary]

#HBC | Kary : I answered your question now. What are your scumreads? What are your reads in general?

I think that the Rake waggon was very interesting. Right now I want to look at J, Dietz, Koops, and Rake.

In general, I think Sang and Spak are probably town. I have Gheb and Ranmaru at lean town.

 

[#HBC | Kary]

I still think your slot is scummy.

Congratulations, you have just repeated the same list of stuff without responding to my post. Everything you have just repeated is either wrong, or so thin that it doesn't justify a scumread.

Give me your three strongest points as to why I am scum, and I will happily show where you're wrong.

 

[#HBC | Kary]

EBWOP #773 above

#HBC | Kary : I answered your question now. What are your scumreads? What are your reads in general?

I think that the Rake waggon was very interesting. Right now I want to look at J, Dietz, Koops, and Rake.

In general, I think Sang and Spak are probably town. I have Gheb and Ranmaru at lean town.

 

[#HBC | Kary]

Shun Goku Satsu Rake

how can Ran be scum when he didn't hammer you yesterDay?

 

[Spak]

Give me your three strongest points as to why I am scum, and I will happily show where you're wrong.

1. Voting and then failing to explain your reasoning behind them (it's just kinda assumed that you should explain votes in the post that you vote, not a day or two later and then say "I voted him for inactivity").
2. Contradicting yourself twice during a line of questioning
3. Addressing me as if I were an inferior player during my line of questioning (I can't see a townie talking that disrespectfully to someone else while talking to them).
(Sorry but I also need to include one more
4. Giving everyone in the Kult a free town lean until someone said something about it one of the members, then moving them straight to scum.

The idea that I was somehow MAGICALLY going to boss people around and become the judge jury and executioner of town is ridiculous.

You said that you wanted them to be your proxy vote, and they were voting as you were telling them to. That probably wouldn't have worked as well near deadline, but you would have surely had a large influence and you wouldn't vote any of your members. I still hold that the Kult is a freebie for scum getting to lategame, but debating that at this point is just wasting town's time.

You continue to repeat that I am scum, but you have never stopped to ask me why I did anything- why I started the church, why I voted for so and so. You just jump straight to conclusions. And you need to stop.

I asked you why you started the Kult, you said to get a tight group of trustable people. Then I asked how can you know they're trustable, then you said you couldn't because we can't mod-confirm slots, then I said it would be an easy way for scum to get into endgame and you said it was null because it was just a smaller version of the game and I said I don't trust you to manually balance the game, and that started this whole line of questioning half a game ago.

 

[Spak]

lol a colon and a end parenthesis makes a smiley. Just read it as this on one line:
:
)

 

[ranmaru]

Addressing me as if I were an inferior player during my line of questioning (I can't see a townie talking that disrespectfully to someone else while talking to them).

Kary does that regardless of alignment. This null, because anyone can be mean or nice regardless of alignment. About the kult, players (regardless of alignment) actually do that in mafia games. It's null. So slow down. Talk to me. What do you think of Rake's vote on J？

 

[Shun Goku Satsu Rake]

maybe he just didn't have da huevos rancheros

 

[Shun Goku Satsu Rake]

also, that's a bad argument

 

[Spak]

Kary does that regardless of alignment. This null, because anyone can be mean or nice regardless of alignment. About the kult, players (regardless of alignment) actually do that in mafia games. It's null. So slow down. Talk to me. What do you think of Rake's vote on J？

I suppose, but it doesn't allign with what I've seen of Kary based on the two games I've played with him. I think it's a slightly scum show, but it could be null.

I think the Rake vote on J is crazy sketch and he needs to explain his reasoning. He did this yesterday with Koops and got a bunch of backlash for it, so shouldn't he have learned not to vote without explanation by now?

 

[#HBC | Kary]

1. Voting and then failing to explain your reasoning behind them (it's just kinda assumed that you should explain votes in the post that you vote, not a day or two later and then say "I voted him for inactivity").
2. Contradicting yourself twice during a line of questioning
3. Addressing me as if I were an inferior player during my line of questioning (I can't see a townie talking that disrespectfully to someone else while talking to them).
(Sorry but I also need to include one more
4. Giving everyone in the Kult a free town lean until someone said something about it one of the members, then moving them straight to scum.

Okay.

#1 Voting for someone and not giving reasoning at the time, is not scummy. If you thought it was scummy, you would be giving J grief about doing it. I am pretty sure at this point I have explained all the votes I've made, so you're wrong in saying I 'failed to explain them'.

#2 This is just wrong.

Spoiler

#3 So you think that all scum players are mean, and all town players are nice? You were being rude and impatient in insisting that I 'get over here'.

#4 I never said I would townread people in the church, and I never did that.
In the case of tHe-man, I townread them at first based on what they posted, but then later I decided they were not worth keeping around, because they were inactive. I never said they were scummy.

 

[#HBC | Kary]

I asked you why you started the Kult, you said to get a tight group of trustable people. Then I asked how can you know they're trustable, then you said you couldn't because we can't mod-confirm slots, then I said it would be an easy way for scum to get into endgame and you said it was null because it was just a smaller version of the game and I said I don't trust you to manually balance the game, and that started this whole line of questioning half a game ago.

You asked me why I started the Kult, and I ignored you.

I was talking to Dietz when I talk about the town circle idea- about what it involves IN THEORY.

So basically you have been ragging on me the whole time about SOMETHING I NEVER DID.

The ONLY reason I did the church thing was to generate content in the early game. Giving people the opportunity to join, or not, is a way of creating stances and opinions where before there was nothing.

 

[Spak]

#1 Voting for someone and not giving reasoning at the time, is not scummy. If you thought it was scummy, you would be giving J grief about doing it. I am pretty sure at this point I have explained all the votes I've made, so you're wrong in saying I 'failed to explain them'.

There is no contradiction here. Asking people to 'become my proxy' does not actually change anything- even if they agree at first, they can still disagree later. If they voted a certain person 'because Kary said so'- that would not be an excuse.

Fair enough

'lynching outside of a group' is not the same as 'lynching anyone who refuses to join'. The second one implies that we would want to lynch everyone not in the church, and that 'not being part' would be reason enough to lynch someone- which is a HUGE reach. It's not a contradiction.

[/spoiler]
But if you lynch outside of a group, wouldn't you eventually have to come to that? Won't there be a point where there are no mroe people outside of the group?

#3 So you think that all scum players are mean, and all town players are nice? You were being rude and impatient in insisting that I 'get over here'.

That's because you flat-out ignored my post and went on to start questioning J. I was going to shower, but I usually expect people to respond even if I'm going away so that I can quickly pick up conversation when I get back.

#4 I never said I would townread people in the church, and I never did that.
In the case of tHe-man, I townread them at first based on what they posted, but then later I decided they were not worth keeping around, because they were inactive. I never said they were scummy.

Then why did both people that joined the Kult end up on your town lean/read list, even if Dietz was fairly inactive at the time? Also what post of tHE-MAN made you think they were townie?

 

[#HBC | Kary]

maybe he just didn't have da huevos rancheros

Don't give me this weaksauce. Ran's been playing longer than either of us. Why would he be afraid to hammer you?

 

[Spak]

Sorry, formatting messed up:

#1 Voting for someone and not giving reasoning at the time, is not scummy. If you thought it was scummy, you would be giving J grief about doing it. I am pretty sure at this point I have explained all the votes I've made, so you're wrong in saying I 'failed to explain them'.

You're right, I should start giving J grief about it. I bumped Gheb's question, and J still hasn't responded; that deserves some explaining. Also, saying a couple days later that you voted for activity doesn't help the person be more active if you don't tell them up-front that it's an activity vote.

'lynching outside of a group' is not the same as 'lynching anyone who refuses to join'. The second one implies that we would want to lynch everyone not in the church, and that 'not being part' would be reason enough to lynch someone- which is a HUGE reach. It's not a contradiction.

But if you lynch outside of a group, wouldn't you eventually have to come to that? Won't there be a point where there are no mroe people outside of the group?

#3 So you think that all scum players are mean, and all town players are nice? You were being rude and impatient in insisting that I 'get over here'.
That's because you flat-out ignored my post and went on to start questioning J. I was going to shower, but I usually expect people to respond even if I'm going away so that I can quickly pick up conversation when I get back.

#4 I never said I would townread people in the church, and I never did that.
In the case of tHe-man, I townread them at first based on what they posted, but then later I decided they were not worth keeping around, because they were inactive. I never said they were scummy.
Then why did both people that joined the Kult end up on your town lean/read list, even if Dietz was fairly inactive at the time? Also what post of tHE-MAN made you think they were townie?

 

[Spak]

formatting, y u do dis

#3 So you think that all scum players are mean, and all town players are nice? You were being rude and impatient in insisting that I 'get over here'.

That's because you flat-out ignored my post and went on to start questioning J. I was going to shower, but I usually expect people to respond even if I'm going away so that I can quickly pick up conversation when I get back.

#4 I never said I would townread people in the church, and I never did that.
In the case of tHe-man, I townread them at first based on what they posted, but then later I decided they were not worth keeping around, because they were inactive. I never said they were scummy.]/quote]
Then why did both people that joined the Kult end up on your town lean/read list, even if Dietz was fairly inactive at the time? Also what post of tHE-MAN made you think they were townie?

 

[Spak]

OK, whatever; I give up on formatting. Back to coding.

 

[ranmaru]

I suppose, but it doesn't allign with what I've seen of Kary based on the two games I've played with him. I think it's a slightly scum show, but it could be null.

What were Kary's games like both times? Just because he's playing differently, doesn't means he is scum. Although it is good to think about why it's different. Also please format your quotes correctly man. I want you to try to be more concise if you can't format things correctly. Personal preference here.

 

[ranmaru]

Considering he's still voting the same way, I think he is desperate since he has no genuine pushes to make.

 

[ranmaru]

#791 is in reference to Rake of course.

 

[#HBC | Kary]

#1You're right, I should start giving J grief about it. I bumped Gheb's question, and J still hasn't responded; that deserves some explaining. Also, saying a couple days later that you voted for activity doesn't help the person be more active if you don't tell them up-front that it's an activity vote.

If the person isn't active, it doesn't matter what you post about them. None of my recent votes have been to do with activity.

#2 But if you lynch outside of a group, wouldn't you eventually have to come to that? Won't there be a point where there are no mroe people outside of the group?

If the church works as intended, everyone inside is town. The game ends when you kill all the scum.
For example, 5 in church, 8 outside, 3 scum.
This also assumes we could not kick someone out of the group, and etc.

#3 That's because you flat-out ignored my post and went on to start questioning J. I was going to shower, but I usually expect people to respond even if I'm going away so that I can quickly pick up conversation when I get back.

Yes, you were impatient.

Then why did both people that joined the Kult end up on your town lean/read list, even if Dietz was fairly inactive at the time? Also what post of tHE-MAN made you think they were townie?

Coincidence.
The tHe-man post where they ask a lot of questions reminds me of Ryker's town play in past games. Taco mafia is an example IIRC.

 

[#HBC | Kary]

Jdietz43 who is scum besides Rake?

 

[Spak]

kk, thanks for having this conversation with me. I still think your play looks sketch so far and I really don't like it, but I can at least see your thought process and you're no longer my biggest concern as I can see a town incentive behind a considerable amount of your play. I would want to look into more of Koops and Rake today once I'm done with my code and re-read with Koops focus (hadn't really paid attention to the slot much after early D1, and I didn't like some material that I saw while looking back at Kary's posts).

 

[ranmaru]

I see you Chibo.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Ran you asked me about Gheb don't agree he's been contributing at good points.

Unvote

Vote: Koopa

 

[ranmaru]

Can you elaborate on what points you like? Thoughts on the J wagon Ryu?

 

[BarDulL]

With 11 alive, it takes 6 to lynch!

Deadline is 1/3/2016 at 11:59pm PST!

@TheKingofKoopas has been prodded!​

 

[Jdietz43]

and your trusting the indy's words ? A+

I also did no flavor fishing or role fishing at all ? How do you think I am ?

Touche, but I don't see a reason for him to randomly lie while giving up. Does not seem like something Joey would do.

You literally asked thread if you could get everyone to flavorclaim?
I think that counts as flavor fishing.