Official Toon Link Match-Up Discussion Thread (Informative Posts/Guides in the OP)

[Deleted member]

So I've been playing with a bunch of Falcon mains lately, and this is what I got out of it:

Pros:
- He's really easy to utilt string
- Zair is really good here
- He's easy to camp if you know what you're doing
- It's easy to avoid getting gimped by his dair if you mix up between using spin attack and the tether for recovery

Cons:
- He's really good at sharking you from under platforms
- Attemtping to gimp him just risks him using his upb on you then being able to recover again, or getting spiked by his side b
- His combos are annoying
- His running speed can make him annoying to camp

Strategy:
Camp him, and utilt when you get the chance. Mix up your recovery when off-stage to avoid getting gimped. If you're on the ledge without invincibility and he's off-stage he can stage spike you with his upb, so don't stay on the ledge too long. TL's uair beats Falcon's dair, so uair if he ends up above you.
Stages:
Smashville > Final Destination > Town and City > Battlefield
No idea about other stages since I didn't get the chance to play on them. Lylat and Yoshi's Island seem like they would be very bad here, though.

Match-up ratio: 57:43, TL's favor


Any thoughts?

 

[Jash]

Charizard 60 - 40 Toon Link

I'll be brief, the main issue Charizard has in this matchup is Toon Links speed as well as his ability to build a huge wall of projectiles to stop him arially (which is probably Charizards best aggro game) applying combos to Charizard is probably the simplest thing to do in this matchup since not only is he big but he's heavy so he takes a lot of damage with very little knock back. Like Bowser, all of his arials lag which means applying pressure isn't too risky, up air goes through all his arials, don't fall into his multiple jump mix ups as he will eventually settle for using that strat in order to land. The main issue for Toon Link in this matchup is being offstage, by all means avoid this situation as he will gimp you fairly easy, Toon Link has options on returning but it's all based on timing and if the Charizards timing is better yours than you're done for. Also Charizard offstage is a great way to rack up some damage, don't go out there just throw as many items as you possibly can, all you need is 110% to kill with fsmash and 120% to kill with up air. Overall I think Toon Link takes this matchup pretty solidly but a good Charizard may surprise you so be careful and fight safe.

 

[Deleted member]

Charizard 60 - 40 Toon Link

I'll be brief, the main issue Charizard has in this matchup is Toon Links speed as well as his ability to build a huge wall of projectiles to stop him arially (which is probably Charizards best aggro game) applying combos to Charizard is probably the simplest thing to do in this matchup since not only is he big but he's heavy so he takes a lot of damage with very little knock back. Like Bowser, all of his arials lag which means applying pressure isn't too risky, up air goes through all his arials, don't fall into his multiple jump mix ups as he will eventually settle for using that strat in order to land. The main issue for Toon Link in this matchup is being offstage, by all means avoid this situation as he will gimp you fairly easy, Toon Link has options on returning but it's all based on timing and if the Charizards timing is better yours than you're done for. Also Charizard offstage is a great way to rack up some damage, don't go out there just throw as many items as you possibly can, all you need is 110% to kill with fsmash and 120% to kill with up air. Overall I think Toon Link takes this matchup pretty solidly but a good Charizard may surprise you so be careful and fight safe.

Good advice, but that match-up ratio is off. Charizard is not easy to deal with for TL, and the match-up definitely isn't as good as Bowser.

He's actually much faster than TL. Charizard is the 8th fastest character in the game, while TL is only the 17th. http://smashboards.com/threads/smash-4-running-walking-speed-rankings.371564/ On top of that, Charizard's moves (or at least the ones that are most commonly used) have surprisingly short start-up, and don't have much ending lag compared to other characters that hit hard like he does. This makes him a lot worse to deal with up-close, and not as easy to punish.
As for combos, Charizard is actually a lot harder to combo than Bowser. For example, utilt on Bowser can go from around 0%-26%, and utilt on Charizard only goes at most from 0%-21%. Charizard is rather floaty for a heavyweight, making him more difficult to combo than other heavies.
If your projectiles are giving Charizard any trouble then the person playing him is probably doing something wrong. His upb, flare blitz, and jumps can easily get him back to the stage very quickly if the player knows what they're doing, and his flare blitz has super armor and can recover from far enough away where you can't throw any projectiles at him. Even if you manage to hit him with a boomerang or bomb it'll only do just a tiny bit of damage, and they won't do anything to knock him away.
Also, considering Charizard will probably take you to a stage with platforms of some kind, his aerials are going to cause you a lot of trouble if you find yourself ending up on a platform. And as for avoiding going off-stage, it's pretty easy for Charizard to send you off-stage at very low percents with his hard-hitting moves. I could go on here, but overall this isn't an easy match-up.

 

[Deleted member]

We're now discussing Donkey Kong and Dr. Mario, and discussion for Dark pit and Diddy end this week. I got the Charizard guide updated, and Jash and I are still talking about what to do for the Captain Falcon guide.

Personally, I haven't had any experience with Donkey Kong or Dr. Mario, but I would be surprised if DK's bair were as big of a part of his game in SSB4 as it was in Brawl. His bair was nerfed pretty badly. So yeah, with a big part of his spacing game gone, I imagine that zair would give him more trouble than before.

 

[Yackabean]

Not gonna lie but personally I think Toon Link is one of the best counters to Diddy Kong in this game. And people have no idea.
Similar MU to brawl really, take control of the banana and avoid getting grabbed whatsoever.

Thankfully because we are light I'd say Diddy has a hard time actually performing a D-throw > Up Air kill on us. We'd actually be the ultimate counter to Diddy if Hitstun BLC cancel was still in. But aside from that. We can zone diddy out pretty nicely.

I'd say the MU Ratio is a 50:50

Should also say Charizard is definintely not even 55:45.
I'd go as far as 65:35. He's honestly a huge easy target to fight I dunoo why that MU ratio is so low for how easy that match up actually is.

Falcon, I'd say we're even. His rushdown is difficult for Toon Link to actually deal with trust me. Think the winning point however is kill options and Toon Links seem somewhat better than Falcon. Only really reliable safe option Falcon does have is back air.

 

[Karaoke Man]

This is simply false. Their speed for every aspect is the same, bust out the Wavebirds if you don't believe me. Weight is also the same, and the weight rankings in the competitive subforum agree. Dspecial hasn't been put under the microscope, but the differences are minor, at best. Knockback is exactly the same for every move I haven't mentioned. Here, test it yourself: http://smashboards.com/threads/the-...nd-technique-guide-all-important-ko-s.372354/ This is my moveset guide. The KO%s are against a CPU Mario standing still in either the center or side of FD, all of which have exactly the same blastzones I might add. Please note that the %s shown are the lowest I could get a KO off of Mario because he DIs slightly, and that this was done on the 3DS version. The Wii U version has smaller blastzones.

It's been a well established fact that the two are almost exactly the same for weeks now, since a week before SSB3D's release, in fact. The wikis are largely incorrect and just going off of gut feels. This has been cold, hard fact for a long time now.

I have tested it for myself, as I play both Pit and Dark Pit fairly frequently myself. I never judge a character by compilations of data alone.

Keep in mind, that it also doesn't matter how "well established" something is. In terms of movement and gravity they definitely feel different even if it's minor. Even the smallest difference changes the way two similar characters function. Much like Lucina and Marth.

 

[LancerStaff]

I have tested it for myself, as I play both Pit and Dark Pit fairly frequently myself. I never judge a character by compilations of data alone.

Keep in mind, that it also doesn't matter how "well established" something is. In terms of movement and gravity they definitely feel different even if it's minor. Even the smallest difference changes the way two similar characters function. Much like Lucina and Marth.

Even the SSBwiki is correct now... I've taken Wavebirds and hooked up the two to the same controller for testing. This isn't just me eyeballing it, they're controlled by the exact same imputs. Frame data and speed effecting attributes are exactly the same. KB on all but one A move is precisely the same. Uspecial and customs travel the same distance at the same speed. All specials have the same frame data between them, actually. What you're feeling is the placebo effect.

Which versions do you have? Because doing a Uspecial from the bottom platform of Tomadachi will put you just above the rail in the background with both characters. If you have SSBU, then Uspecial off of platforms in Guar Plain for comparison. To easily test KB, start a match against a Mario with a controller as one of the angels and hit him with an attack, then quit. The post-match records tell you how much KB he took. Then perform the same attack with the other angel under the same conditions and see how much KB he took again. It will be the same for almost every move.

 

[Deleted member]

Jash sent me this thing he wrote up to potentially be used as a match-up guide for Dark Pit. What do you guys think of it?

"Dark Pit vs Toon Link

55/45 Dark Pit

This matchup is very tricky and requires a lot of patience in order to stand a chance against Dark Pit.
Dark Pit has two moves that reflect, Upperdash Arm (side b) and Guardian Orbitars (down b), one of which approaches you as it reflects and one the reflects items and deflects physical attacks. Avoid spamming too much as it may soon become a disadvantage once they start reflecting your items. You also want to avoid going off stage so you won't deal with long bair gimps which also has a sweet spot that kills pretty quickly. Dark Pit also has three jumps which make it kinda tricky to find out when he will land since there's no following him with projectiles.

Tips: Zair is your best friend in this matchup, it's the safest attack to use to avoid punishment as well as connect with a quick grab. Only use projectiles when he's not on the ground, if he trying to reflect your items aerially then you will see the opening so chances are he won't reflect at all. Bombs over-prioritize Palutena's Bow (B) so if you're fighting a campy Dark Pit then you know how to stop his arrows. Avoid stages with platforms, Dark Pit is very good at platform stages due to his rapid attacks it'll be very hard for you to land on stage. The best option vs his Guardian Orbitars (down b) is to grab, it is possible to hit Dark Pit out of it but the spot the very small so you may end up getting deflected and left open, just grab and it'll go right through. Dark Pit also dies pretty early which helps us a lot, fsmash will defeat him at 100% and Upsmash at 120%.

This matchup can be very sensitive but if you focus and use your projectiles wisely, it'll be possible to win this matchup."

 

[PSIBoy]

Jash sent me this thing he wrote up to potentially be used as a match-up guide for Dark Pit. What do you guys think of it?

"Dark Pit vs Toon Link

55/45 Dark Pit

This matchup is very tricky and requires a lot of patience in order to stand a chance against Dark Pit.
Dark Pit has two moves that reflect, Upperdash Arm (side b) and Guardian Orbitars (down b), one of which approaches you as it reflects and one the reflects items and deflects physical attacks. Avoid spamming too much as it may soon become a disadvantage once they start reflecting your items. You also want to avoid going off stage so you won't deal with long bair gimps which also has a sweet spot that kills pretty quickly. Dark Pit also has three jumps which make it kinda tricky to find out when he will land since there's no following him with projectiles.

Tips: Zair is your best friend in this matchup, it's the safest attack to use to avoid punishment as well as connect with a quick grab. Only use projectiles when he's not on the ground, if he trying to reflect your items aerially then you will see the opening so chances are he won't reflect at all. Bombs over-prioritize Palutena's Bow (B) so if you're fighting a campy Dark Pit then you know how to stop his arrows. Avoid stages with platforms, Dark Pit is very good at platform stages due to his rapid attacks it'll be very hard for you to land on stage. The best option vs his Guardian Orbitars (down b) is to grab, it is possible to hit Dark Pit out of it but the spot the very small so you may end up getting deflected and left open, just grab and it'll go right through. Dark Pit also dies pretty early which helps us a lot, fsmash will defeat him at 100% and Upsmash at 120%.

This matchup can be very sensitive but if you focus and use your projectiles wisely, it'll be possible to win this matchup."

Seems fairly good, except that for Dark Pit it's Electroshock Arm, not Upperdash. And when Electroshock reflects projectiles, it has a lot of ending lag which can be punished at fairly close range.

 

[Deleted member]

Doesn't anyone have anything to say about TL vs Diddy? I'm really surprised this one is getting no replies, especially considering that Diddy is considered the best character right now. Then again, this thread really hasn't been getting many replies at all lately.

Anyway, to avoid a doube post in case no one replies, at midnight our new discussions will be Duck Hunt Dog and Falco, and we'll need to finish up Donkey Kong and Dr. Mario.

 

[PSIBoy]

Have no experience in the matchup at all. Sorry.

 

[Deleted member]

Have no experience in the matchup at all. Sorry.

Weird, I thought I was the only one. Supposedly he's like as commonly used as MK in Brawl, but personally I know only one person who uses him. Odd that there seems to be so little experience with this match-up here.

Since Diddy is considered the bezt character right now yet we've gotten no replies to this, I'm thinking of making a separate thread for discussing him as well as Bowser Jr. Two characters is too many to be missing info on, too.

 

[PSIBoy]

Weird, I thought I was the only one. Supposedly he's like as commonly used as MK in Brawl, but personally I know only one person who uses him. Odd that there seems to be so little experience with this match-up here.

Since Diddy is considered the bezt character right now yet we've gotten no replies to this, I'm thinking of making a separate thread for discussing him as well as Bowser Jr. Two characters is too many to be missing info on, too.

I see him sometimes, but always with everyone BUT TL, and most of them don't seem to be all that good, but here's a video by NAKAT outlining some general details about vs Diddy:

Other than what NAKAT says, I guess use projectiles to harass him and hamper side-b as well as gimp him with down-b if he tries to charge his up-b. But this is theory: I haven't got the chance to try them out yet. And don't get grabbed. If you get grabbed, DI is your only hope at high percents. I'd probably say 60-40 or 55-45 Diddy Kong I guess?

 

[Fangblade]

Doesn't anyone have anything to say about TL vs Diddy? I'm really surprised this one is getting no replies, especially considering that Diddy is considered the best character right now. Then again, this thread really hasn't been getting many replies at all lately.

Anyway, to avoid a doube post in case no one replies, at midnight our new discussions will be Duck Hunt Dog and Falco, and we'll need to finish up Donkey Kong and Dr. Mario.

Hey Dr. A, my internet has been ridiculously slow so I never got to add some input on TL vs Didddy.
The MU is definitely in Diddys favor since due to 2 reasons. 1. Tink has issues w/ characters who're fast 2. Diddy does well vs floaty characters as he can string his aerials well, and will always have time to pull a banana.
I'd say 55:45 from those I've faced, but it's probably worse.

Aeirals:
In the air we're at a clear disadvantage. Since we can't do much to characters below us besides with a bomb throw, Diddys Uair easily connects and can lead to other strings. Even if Uair is his go-to move it will still kill us relatively early, it still has high knockback when stale, and when it's fresh, Diddy can do Dtilt>SH'd Uair for an easy KO.
Diddy's will likely be fishing for Uairs when you recover onto the stage, since Jumping up from ledges is not safe.
His Dair spikes, and also auto-cancels if they use it right before they land on stage. You probably wont see it being used much as it has a small hitbox but it hits hard.
His Nair sends you upwards and strings with more of his Uair, combined with it's low landing lag you'll see this often.
Diddy's really quick so while you're recovering beware his Bair/Fair as they are very quick and not really punishable, and also kill. Diddy will actually be able to combo any of his Aerials besides Dair if he gets a Dthrow in, so DI up and away, and try to guess which move he's going to use next to know if you need to jump or airdodge. You can expect two Bairs at low %. TL has an easier time escaping his Dthrow>Uair than most IMO.
His Fair trades damage well, so don't approach it directly. Shield grab any grounded approaches against this.

Diddy's tilts:
Dtilt: This moves is great. It can clank with our attacks, and leads to a grab or another Dtilt often. At high percents he can Dtitlt you then Uair, as it sends you upwards. He can Dtilt with a banana in hand, so your best bet will be to shield this or roll backwards(risky).
Ftilt: Good for spacing as it has long range, a bit of ending lag but is quick nonetheless.
Utilt: Similar to our Utilt but there's not much of a hitbox behind him.

Smashes:
All of his smashes kill, so you'll probably want to avoid these or shield them and then punish w/ or grab or whatever. The back hit of Dsmash is stronger than the front hit btw. Fsmash has 3 hits and should be shielded or w/e.

Specials:
Peanut Gun: can be annoying offtsage, it's good for pressure and limiting your movements. Though onstage they'll be destroyed by almost anything, and will rarely be seen as he has better options.
Banana: Always use this against him when you have the chance, you can hold it while spamming rang and arrows, and then plan out how to punish his approaches. If it hits your shield jump up and catch it, possibly insta-toss it back.
Diddy Flip: If a Diddy's being aggressive w/ these they're easy to punish, you can spotdodge them or even shield the kick. If he gets the grab always mash out. You can expect him to Nair after the release, or recover if he's offstage.
Though GOOD Diddy's know how not to get punished. When this moved is short-hopped and Smashed kicked, Diddy will actually get momentum/slide boost when he lands. The way this works is the move ends just as he lands, and then he will close some distance to us so that he can catch us w/ a Dtilt, smash attack or grab (think of JCT slide). You will be seeing this often as Diddys like the SH>Banana throw to mixthings up and keep you guessing, and then hop over projectiles with the Diddy Flip. I might add that the momentum can be crouch canceled if he crawls backwards after, and then followed up w/ a Dtilt instantly.

A lot of this match is going to be spent spamming and harassing him on and offstage to possibly get a gimp in. His recovery can easily go wrong w/ good use of bombs, and the wishful thinking that he wont sweet-spot the ledge. Punish the little things he messes up on like dash attacks, or wild grabs. I haven't played many Diddy's btw. They're not really popular in For Glory. He is one of the 3 characters I play so I know a bit about his moves, not necessarily how to combat them.

 

[Cyre]

Positive against Dankey Kang
~Has no real answer against ranged play
~Can't close distance quickly. Not a great roll and a huge hitbox.
~Easily deniable with bomb strings and boomerang strings.
~Extremely big target, making it easy to land aerials and zair is amazing in this MU.

Negative against Dankey Kang
~Has some great followups that can just catch you off guard. Dash attack>Fair for example.
~Has two amazing spikes. He can also gimp you quite easily.
~Generally hits kinda hard. He can kill you without much struggle, due to your quite light self.
~Kinda swoll, He might try to flex on you with his side B. Hold down that shield and be patient.

When you fight him, always have a bomb in your hand on approach. He's not hard to land one on, so there isn't much excuse to not have a bomb in your hand. Try not to recover low if knocked off stage, because he's definitely going for a spike, so always try to anticipate it and air-dodge and go for zair recoveries.

Some strings that can be useful on him: Zair -> grab, bomb -> fair, bomb -> Nair, and that's all that I can pull of out of my dumbdumb brain.

That's all I know when it comes to Dankey Kang, I'll try to post something on Falco later.

Diddy Pang Time!

Lets start with negatives because **** it, why not!
~He's got amazing follow ups and combos/strings. Stuff like Upthrow> up air. Nanner into anything.
~While he may lack smash attacks that can kill early without charging they are generally quite quick on execution.
~Diddy can keep up that pressure with a combination of his side B, bananas, up throw and uairs. His other aerials aren't bad either.
~ He can side B out of anything, so its generally smart to try and bait out his side Bs.
~Nanner In general gives him a free hit.

Onto the positives.
~Our projectiles beat his. Including the arrows.
~ His side B is not safe from projectiles. So feel free to camp his butt ( As in make sure you have a bomb in your hand for approach).
~Lacks in killing power. His main kill move is his uair.

I want to rate the MU 50/50 due to diddy just having amazing attacks and combos and just a fluid kind of style. Our projectiles may beat his but our cqc does not. We still have far quicker ways of killing. Our smashes just kill a lot earlier than his.

The general strat against diddy is just to be patient and make sure you land your bombs/boomerangs to allow you to go in with your aerials.

 

[Jash]

Donkey Kong i believe is 60/40 Toon link advantage.

Donkey kong is strong and hard to kill (2nd heaviest in the game in fact) donkey punch would probably kill toon link at about 80%. You also need to watch out for his super armor attacks which would be his up b and his neutral b attacks which can take damage with no knock back.

However those are probably his only advantages, donkey kong is a pretty large target so approaching is very difficult even with his super armor tactics. Racking up damage is key in this matchup which isn't too difficult since toon link can combo him for a pretty long time, fsmash will kill him at about 115-125%. Donkey kong has pretty sluggish moves compared to toon link so countering him is also pretty easy as well as running away when he gets too close. Donkey kong only has a close combat game so spacing with your mid range projectile game will make you feel untouchable.

If you play it spaced and avoid damage while racking up damage, you'll give any Donkey kong a hard time.

 

[PSIBoy]

So Duck Hunt now? Been waiting for this since I may have valuable info to contribute.

I only played one match on FG TL vs DHD, so feel free to take this with a grain of salt, but here's my impressions: it seems that TL has an advantage long-range: arrows and boomerangs shoot down the clay and stop, or in the boomerang's case, reflect the cans. They can also kill the hunters DHD spawns in one hit. Bombs... Sadly are not anti-projectile is matchup: can't kill the hunters in one hit, difficult to shoot down clay with, and unsure about the can. Close range, I'm not entirely sure, they seemed evenly matched though. DHD's smash attacks seem to have some ending lag you can take advantage of, grab outranges his, but DHD is no slouch either. Overall, I'd say 55-45 or 60-40 in TL favor. Worst case scenario would be 50-50.

 

[Deleted member]

So Duck Hunt now? Been waiting for this since I may have valuable info to contribute.

I only played one match on FG TL vs DHD, so feel free to take this with a grain of salt, but here's my impressions: it seems that TL has an advantage long-range: arrows and boomerangs shoot down the clay and stop, or in the boomerang's case, reflect the cans. They can also kill the hunters DHD spawns in one hit. Bombs... Sadly are not anti-projectile is matchup: can't kill the hunters in one hit, difficult to shoot down clay with, and unsure about the can. Close range, I'm not entirely sure, they seemed evenly matched though. DHD's smash attacks seem to have some ending lag you can take advantage of, grab outranges his, but DHD is no slouch either. Overall, I'd say 55-45 or 60-40 in TL favor. Worst case scenario would be 50-50.

I agree that we seem to have the advantage when it comes to camping. From what little experience I've had with DHD though, his moves have insane range, making him very unpleasant to deal with up-close. Plus our camping doesn't beat his that badly if the DHD player knows what they're doing. So yeah, I don't think it's a good match-up for us.

 

[PSIBoy]

I agree that we seem to have the advantage when it comes to camping. From what little experience I've had with DHD though, his moves have insane range, making him very unpleasant to deal with up-close. Plus our camping doesn't beat his that badly if the DHD player knows what they're doing. So yeah, I don't think it's a good match-up for us.

Hmm. Well, my only experience was FG, and I was whipping him around in close combat, so I guess. 50-50 I'd say then.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

I just wanted to note that DK's neutral special only has super armour if it's fully charged and it hits much harder if it's almost fully charged.
Also with Duck Hunt, you want to get him off-stage if possible. Bait out the ridiculous Fair, don't challenge it on the horizontal plain; be aware that he has a pretty good Dair spike and you should be fine. A good Duck Hunt will try to recover with a can, but their Up-special recovery is still trash. If you play it safe and make sure each hit connects even if it's just a small and quick hit, you can rack up a lot of damage while they are recovering.

 

[HyLeN]

Doc has actually a really bad neutral game, but he has amazing punishes if you mess up. His recovery is garbage but he wracks damage quick and gets kills SUPER early. Tbh, he's better in dubz (with a partner to help you off stage). But tl vs doc is probably 6-4 tl because you get a lot of easy strings cuz he is so heavy. And zair gimps on doc are lol. Only reason i put it that close is because nair is amazing at braking out up tilt strings, he gimps us as easily as mario does (cape/bair), he has a decent projectile and cape too.

 

[Cyre]

Doc, but I don't want a shot.. Needles hurt...
Nope, can't say no to the doctor. Once the papers are signed, he will start prescribing you medicine.
I find fighting doctor mario and mario, as well are just plain annoying. Magic cape is the main cause of this. It can be thrown out at any time without losing any real momentum. It forces you to play differently. Not a completely different game, though it still causes you to be more afraid of what projectiles you use and when you throw them.
In the right hands doc mario can be a threat. It's like he was created to ruin our day. Never fear, you can bait his capes and run in for a grab. Hell, just jump towards him with a bomb in your hand, watch him cape and zair instead then throw it.

Stay unpredictble and don't commit. He can punish you hard like said above.

Ill add more negatives and positives to my list below a bit later. Hard to make it look pretty on a phone

Negatives
~Respect the cape. But don't fear it. His cape allows him easier approach against most characters.
~Hes fast and his aerials are good if a bit slower than marios
~His fair is a commitment but at the same time, if it lands you've been spiked. Watch out for it. It really defeats your recovery in almost every circumstance.

Positives
~Slower than mario
~ I believe he has more lag on his moves (please correct me if I'm wrong)

Will Try to add more
MU rating
50/50

 

[Deleted member]

We're now discussing Fox and Ganondorf, along with Duck Hunt and Falco.

Also, as for the Donkey Kong guide, I've been working on compiling everything said so far + personal experience into a guide to post and ask for you guys' thoughts, but haven't been able to finish it yet. Only thing is I'm not sure what the match-up ratio should be. Jash says it's 60:40, but other people say it's a better match-up for us than that. Personally I think it's at least 65:35. I know the Donkey Kong discussion is supposed to be over, but I'm just wondering what you guys think the match-up ratio should be.

 

[Cyre]

I would agree on the 60:40. 65:35 is also fine, but either way, I think we can all agree that Toon Link has a clear advantage over Donkey Kong.

 

[Dɛαd]

As Far as I know..


Falco

Cons
-TL Projectiles are almost useless.
-Its hard to charge your bow cause of his neutral B. (Same for the boomrang)
-Hard to zair him. (cause of his Down B)
-Falco having good aerials. (in my opinion)
-Falco fsmash is very powerful.
-Down B.....

Pros
-TL is faster.


Tips
Try to fight him on a stage with platform, you can't camp on a stage like FD.
Your bombs and uair will be very useful.




Opinion based and can be edit if needed.

 

[Deleted member]

Still working on the DK guide. I feel bad for how long it's been taking, but just about everything has been getting in the way of finishing it.
Anyway, as for the characters currently being discussed, I don't think any of those match-ups are in our favor. We only barely out-camp Duck Hunt, but he destroys us badly enough up-close to make the match-up unpleasant. That said, I don't have enough experience against him to have come up with any strategies. Fox and Falco force you to be much more careful. Bombs are really good against them, and utilt combos pretty well on Fox. Utilt > utilt > grab is a thing at lower percents, though I doubt it's a true combo. Utilt > utilt > fsmash can also work, but Fox can avoid the fsmash by jabbing or power shielding, so I wouldn't use utilt > utilt > fsmash very much. Ganon is a pain in the ass for us because, while he's easy enough to camp, any mistakes when going for the kill will be lethal due to rage + his already hitting like a truck. Add our killing problems, lightness, lag on our moves, inability to fight up-close, etc., and imo the Ganon match-up is 45:55 Ganon's favor.

Also, I wrote these up a while ago, and think they're still relevant:

"Duck Hunt Dog
Pros:
- TL can outcamp him.
Cons:
- DHD is annoying up-close.
- Zair isn't very useful here since a lot of his attacks out-range it.
- Your Hylian shield doesn't protect you from his projectiles enough to be useful.
Strategy:
Camp. DHDs might become aggressive if you win the camping fight. Don't try close combat against DHD, he'll always win. Even zair is risky because DHD has a lot of long and disjointed moves.



Falco
Cons:
- Your Hylian shield won't protect you against his lasers.
Strategy:
His bair, dair, side smash, and side b are good for killing, so watch out for them.



Fox
Pros:
- You can usually combo him with utilt until at least around 32%-36% if he's in front of the move.
Cons:
- Fox is difficult and unsafe to gimp since his sideb can spike you, and doesn't leave him vulnerable.
- Your Hylian shield doesn't work against his lasers.
Strategy:
He hates characters that get in his face and combo him, since he's a fast faller, which makes him easy to combo. Switch up between camping and being aggressive with spaced moves. Be extra unpredictable so he won't reflect your projectiles back at you. Use bombs and the boomerang to gimp him. Also, since I couldn't find much on the Fox boards, I asked a friend who mains Fox about the match-up. This is what he had to say:
"I do think Fox has the mobility and tools to break through Tink's projectiles. Fox has a very good follow up game, but Tink's quick aerials can catch him and perhaps punish Fox if the Fox player isn't careful.
Fox is hard to gimp in most circumstances. You need to predict his forward B or where he will use up B... I can go on and on. But I'm thinking the match up is even. Tink forces Fox to get through his projectiles and be more careful than usual with follow ups. Fox can force Tink to fight him up close."
Stages:
I don't have much experience or other evidence to back this up, but stages with lots of platforms like Battlefield don't seem so bad here. I've found Fox to be very easy to combo with utilt then umsashed so he ends up on the platforms, leaving him vulnerable to being sharked after you've combo'd him. The platforms also help with camping in this case since reflected bombs can't hurt you, and he'll have a harder time reflecting the boomerang back at you. The platforms also make it even harder for him to recover above you when you're trying to gimp him, since you can shark him from under the platforms if he lands on one.



Ganondorf
Pros:
- Ganon has a terrible time with campers.
Cons:
- Getting close to him is dangerous, making him extremely difficult to KO.
- You can rack up massive damage from just a few hits, and he has no trouble KOing you.
- The rage mechanic + him being difficult to kill + TL's poor ability to KO make him beyond terrifying at higher %s.
Strategy:
Camp his *** and don't approach him; he can rack up massive damages from just a few hits. Always keep a bomb in hand to punish his mistakes, since you're going to need to get that extra damage on him to make up for the hits you'll be taking. If you have to come close then spam zair, then get away ASAP."

 

[Deleted member]

So Yackabean said this in the TL Skype group, and I thought it was worth posting here:

"Against Falco, just bait the reflector. Avoid him when his back is turned to you. Bair is deadly. Don't get grabbed and down thrown. Back throw can kill with the final laser so try to DI up or down I can't remember specifically which way to DI. Always throw bombs so they arc over the reflector, and throw from a distance. Bait Side B recoveries and punish them hard. Down smash like on lil mac also works, since falco's recovery is low and predictable from it, so you can run off and fair him afterwards.

Duck Hunt I'm not too sure on, I'll need a bit more experience fighting him first. The MU Ratio for Falco is probably 50:50 just now. Both characters have good kill options. Falco has the ability to force approaching, however isn't too amazing up close anymore anyway. But Dash attack and back air are formadible, and nair is quite devastating too, mixed up with his jab game. Footsy game kinda remains the same from brawl but I wouldn't call him amazing up close. But as long as you just keep throwing projectiles SMARTLY, you should be fine. I believe zair helps beat the reflector. As useless airdodge zair is, you can bait it with a bomb in hand, and zair > bomb follow up. I wouldn't call it our B&B for the MU, but it may work as a mix up. If you can also do this too, get a rang thrown out a long the floor when he's in the air, he'll be forced to expect the turnaround of it, and have to react some way."

 

[Yackabean]

Note they are just generalised MU statements I'd think about when fighting Falco.
I usually just keep a few notes to myself when fighting a character like the dangerous stuff to avoid and how to work around certain situations.

 

[SoundChow]

I play against Falco a lot because my friend mains him, and in my opinion Falco has a slightly better matchup. His reflector and stun-laser make it hard for Toon Link to pressure Falco with arrows and boomerang from far away. He has a good shortened jab combo as well as some decent grab combos with d-throw to u-smash/f-air. His aerial mobility and up-close combo game make it really easy for him to land b-airs, which is really spammable and powerful. I personally find him difficult to play against because I have to play Toon Link more up-close, and I usually like to have a boomerang or arrow distracting my opponent before going for bomb followups.

 

[Deleted member]

I definitely think it's one of the harder match-ups for us, but if zair helps us out against the reflector then that's really good to know. I still think it's probably at most 45:55 if not 40:60 or worse, though. Then again, I don't have much match-up experience with Falco, and am just guessing based on all the complaints I hear about that match-up.
But yeah, I've finally gotten stuff mostly worked out on the Donkey Kong guide, so I'll be posting that soon. As for the Falco guide, if no one else will write it then I guess I'll get something all organized based on what's been posted here. Hopefully a bunch of problems don't get in the way of getting it done like with the DK guide. And as for the match-up ratio, I think that still needs more discussion. Same with Duck Hunt and everything.

 

[Deleted member]

We're now discussing Greninja and Ike, along with Fox and Ganon.

Personally, I think Greninja is one of our hardest match-ups, if not our hardest. At the very least I'd say it's 35:65, if not 30:70. But yeah, my friend who I used to play with a bunch and mains both TL and Greninja wrote this up a while ago, and even if it's pre-1.0.4. most if not all of it is still relevant (the changes to Greninja from 1.0.4. can be found here):

"

TOONNINJA
(That is the cheesiest name ever)​

Hey! I'm gonna point out some Greninja stuff we need to watch out for now that I'm on a computer and it's so much easier to write here instead of my tiny iPhone.

First off, one big problem Toon Link has against Greninja is being offstage. We can't recover properly because of numerous reasons:

• If you're in the upper corner without your second jump, the ninja can just Hydro Pump you off the stage OR... use U-Air... *shivers* the U-Air... anyways, yeah. It's hard up here.
• If youre in the middle, even at low percentages, F-Air kills, and if not, gimps you.
• If you're down below the ledge, Greninja sees no issue in just Hydro Pumping outwards/downwards.

The Z-Air isn't really doing much to improve our situation either:

• If you're above the ledge when you use it, Greninja can use Up-Smash and hit hard. Fresh sweetspotted Up-Smash deals 20% worth of damage. Ouch.
• If you used it horizontally from the ledge, Water Shuriken says hi.
• If you grabbed it from below (somehow. I NEVER get this to work, lol), a good Greninja player (unlike me ) can gimp you with D-Air, or just Hydro Pump you.

In general, if you're just hanging from the ledge, Greninja can still do well with Shadow Sneak. It uses Shadow Sneak about a character length from the ledge in case you roll. Here is what it does to you:

IF YOU CHOOSE TO ATTACK: Shadow Sneak will "clank" with your sword strike, and the ninja will Jab and deal some damage. And it's back into the air again.
IF YOU CHOOSE TO ROLL: Shadow Sneak will simply make Greninja kick behind it. Though this one is safer than attacking since it will probably knock you into the stage, it makes you take more damage.
IF YOU CHOOSE TO SIMPLY GET UP: Shadow Sneak will hit you and you can wave (or maybe not...) bye-bye to the stage, because you're back in the air.

There is one more alternative:

IF YOU CHOOSE TO JUMP: Shadow Sneak won't hit you, provided you jumped at the right moment. This is maybe the safest alternative.

Alright so now, we'll get into some combos Greninja does very often. Keep in mind all of these are done in Training Mode, so no moves are Stale:

(SS- Sweetspot)
(PP- Additional two Pummels. Possible at lower %'s.)
(PPP- Additional three Pummels. Possible at higher %'s.)
(Red Font - Low % Combo)
(Blue Font - Mid-High % Combo [KO'S])

U-Throw > U-Smash (SS) = 24% (28% PP)
U-Throw > U-Air > U-Air = 23% (27% PPP)
U-Throw > U-Air > U-Air > Hydro Pump = 31% (35% PPP)
U-Tilt > U-Tilt > U-Smash (SS) = 28%Til
D-Tilt > D-Tilt > Dash Attack > U-Smash (SS) = 40%
D-Throw > F-Tilt = 12% (16% PP)
D-Throw > F-Air = 20% (26% PPP)
N-Air > F-Tilt = 17%


Alright so here's another big issue particularly you and I have against Greninja: our stage selection.

As you know, we [my friend and I] commonly pick one out of three stages (Green Hill Zone, PictoChat 2, Balloon Fight) to reduce lag. However, two of these stages (PictoChat 2, Balloon Fight) are a serious issue when fighting Greninja. On these stages, particularly PictoChat 2, the shadow from Shadow Sneak is almost (in the case of PictoChat 2, completely) invisible. This means that every time Greninja walks forward, you have to watch out for a Shadow Sneak. Keep this in mind!

Alright, finally, here's some things a lot of Greninjas will do commonly:

• If it misses a D-Air, it can will be cancelled into a Shadow Sneak.
• Water Shuriken.
• Sometimes Shadow Sneak behind you a fair distance and get away from your projectile insanity.
• It will almost NEVER use Counter.
• It will recover with unpredictability by using Hydro Pump, so don't try to gimp IT. If you miss your attack and end up behind it, you can easily be pushed to the edge of the screen by a shot of Hydro Pump.
• It will wall cling to the side of the stage to wait for you to let your guard downand go onstage and hit you with a B-Air or something. To avoid this, you could pick a stage with an Omega form that has no walls such as Magicant, Rainbow Road, or Prism Tower, BUT this will also cost you your Wall Jump to improve recovery, along with tossing bombs into the wall and hitting yourself to gain height (this can still be done to an extent.).
• If they get the opportunity, they will use U-Air as much as they can. Throw a Bomb down but not always. Mix it up with D-air or just Air Dodge and U-Air THEM.
• After they land a D-Air and they bounce off of you, they will either follow up with another D-Air which CAN be hard to dodge, since you don't see Greninjas doing that very often, or follow up with B-Air if youre behind them."

Here's a thing I wrote up, also pre-1.0.4., but again it's mostly still relevant:

"Greninja
Pros:
- You can usually combo him with utilt until at least around 36%-39% if he's in front of the move.
- TL's utilt seems (emphasis on "seems"; I don't have much evidence to back this up) to come out faster than Greninja's. It seems to be true from my experience, since I've found when Greninja and TL show their utilt animation at the same time that TL's is the one that ends up hitting.
- Your Hylian shield blocks his water shuriken, including when fully charged. Keep this in mind, as Greninja's water shuriken can cause trouble for TL with its good speed and priority.
Cons:
- He can combo you with his utilt just as easily as you can combo him with yours because his utilt has the same range but less knockback. Being close enough to start a utilt combo on him puts you at the very same risk.
- TL's uair doesn't always beat his dair, and Greninja can combo one dair into another if you miss your techs, so uair isn't worth the risk if you see him dair.
- Greninja's recovery is hard to gimp, and attempting to gimp him can put you in a bad position because of hydro pump.
- His air game is much better than yours.
- His water shuriken cancels out your boomerang and arrows, and it comes out faster than them.
- A lot of his moves outrange zair.
Strategy:
Toss bombs and maybe the boomerang if he gets above you. Bombs and the boomerang are your only hopes of trying to gimp him, though you still shouldn't get your hopes up on gimping him. If Greninja keeps recovering above the stage you can gimp him or at least scare him by using the boomerang and tossing a ton of bombs upwards, making it unsafe to recover above the stage. If he safely recovers above the stage despite the projectiles, his landing should be much easier to predict so you can punish. His water shuriken (or however it's spelled) clashes with your arrows and boomerang, so camp him with bombs. He hates bombs. Watch him carefully when you end up above him, as depending on what he does you should either dair if he tries to jump under you and uair you, or make it rain bombs if he stays on the ground. It's very common for Greninjas to jump under you and uair a few times in order to bait you into dairing later on, while they stay on the ground and wait so they can punish your dair. Do not let him bait you into fighting him from the air, since he'll win that every time. Watch out for the shadow of his shadow sneak. Even at low percents he can fast fall and uair you to the bottom of the stage so you can't recover. If you see the shadow from shadow sneak, shield it and dsmash. His water shuriken comes out faster than all of TL's projectiles. He still hates campers, though, so keep trying to camp. Just be unpredictable, don't spend too much time on the ground or in the air. Greninja mains loathe campers. Unfortunately, TL seems to be one of the campers that Greninja has an easier time dealing with.
Stages:
Greninja likes stages with a dark background or floor (especially floor) since it's hard or even impossible to see his shadow sneak. Avoid stages with platforms, since he can easily juggle the crap out of you on them. On Yoshi's Island watch out for Greninja dairing by the edge when you're on there, since it will hit you because of the slanted ground."

 

[Cyre]

Alright time to fax some information to you guys.

Fax.
Heh, get it?
I'm not very funny..

Fox
~His Shine allows him to approach since he can throw it out whenever, kinda like mario. It ends up making it hard to just zone with bombs.
~Unlike falco, he doesn't disjoint his shine so zairs are a lot more helpful in this fight.
~His laser can be plenty annoying as our hylian shield does not block it for some reason, but you have full access to your neutral game while being shot at. His lasers don't interrupt you so try not to panic.
~He's got great recovery and as a fast faller, it just isn't going to be easy to kill such a guy.
~Did I mention he's fast?

I like to bait his shines and throw a bomb above instead of at him and grab him. This obviously isn't going to work on better players who adapt quickly. Though you should always keep fox guessing and keep him following you. Keep your projectiles unpredictable. If you pull a bomb and hes expecting you to throw it then zair at him instead and then throw it, following up with an aerial best for the situation. If your opponent is obviously going for a dash attack, be patient with your shield and go into a pivot grab or jump away with a retreating boomerang or zair.

Anyways, I'll try to post some things on the other guys as well.

 

[Deleted member]

So I've been playing with Vermanubis (for those who haven't heard of him, he's an extremely good Ganon main) lately, and here's what he had to say about the match-up:

"Generally, I feel TL wins the MU. He's not as good as he was in Brawl, but his projectile game is still big trouble for Ganon. Bombs especially. It's not a huge win for TL though. 6:4 at ABSOLUTE worst

Plus TL can gimp Ganon pretty easily, too. We have the killing power over him, but if TL wants to keep us away, he will, unless we consistently charge through a wall of projectiles"

He also said that fair and nair are good for gimping Ganon, and that it's especially important to cover your ledge options with bombs in this match-up.

 

[FullMoon]

Coincidentally, the Greninja boards are also discussing Toon Link so if any of you guys are interested: http://smashboards.com/threads/mast...a-man-mii-gunner-link-t-link-1-5-1-12.369356/

Unfortunately, I can't say much about this MU myself since I haven't gone against Toon Link very often so I can't offer you guys any input.

I will say this though: Do not underestimate Greninja's counter. It can kill Toon Link at 85% if aimed upwards without rage so if you get too predictable, it's a very easy way to lose a stock.

 

[MartinAW4]

We're now discussing Greninja and Ike, along with Fox and Ganon.

Personally, I think Greninja is one of our hardest match-ups, if not our hardest. At the very least I'd say it's 35:65, if not 30:70. But yeah, my friend who I used to play with a bunch and mains both TL and Greninja wrote this up a while ago, and even if it's pre-1.0.4. most if not all of it is still relevant (the changes to Greninja from 1.0.4. can be found here):

"

TOONNINJA
(That is the cheesiest name ever)​

Hey! I'm gonna point out some Greninja stuff we need to watch out for now that I'm on a computer and it's so much easier to write here instead of my tiny iPhone.

First off, one big problem Toon Link has against Greninja is being offstage. We can't recover properly because of numerous reasons:

• If you're in the upper corner without your second jump, the ninja can just 1) Hydro Pump you off the stage OR... use U-Air... *shivers* the U-Air... anyways, yeah. It's hard up here.
• If youre in the middle, even at low percentages, 2) F-Air kills, and if not, gimps you.
• If you're down below the ledge, Greninja sees no issue in just Hydro Pumping outwards/downwards.

The Z-Air isn't really doing much to improve our situation either:

• If you're above the ledge when you use it, Greninja can use Up-Smash and hit hard. Fresh sweetspotted Up-Smash deals 20% worth of damage. Ouch.
• If you used it horizontally from the ledge, Water Shuriken says hi.
• If you grabbed it from below (somehow. I NEVER get this to work, lol), a good Greninja player (unlike me ) can gimp you with D-Air, or just Hydro Pump you.

In general, if you're just hanging from the ledge, Greninja can still do well with Shadow Sneak. It uses Shadow Sneak about a character length from the ledge in case you roll. Here is what it does to you:

IF YOU CHOOSE TO ATTACK: Shadow Sneak will "clank" with your sword strike, and the ninja will Jab and deal some damage. And it's back into the air again.
IF YOU CHOOSE TO ROLL: Shadow Sneak will simply make Greninja kick behind it. Though this one is safer than attacking since it will probably knock you into the stage, it makes you take more damage.
IF YOU CHOOSE TO SIMPLY GET UP: Shadow Sneak will hit you and you can wave (or maybe not...) bye-bye to the stage, because you're back in the air.

There is one more alternative:

IF YOU CHOOSE TO JUMP: Shadow Sneak won't hit you, provided you jumped at the right moment. This is maybe the safest alternative.

Alright so now, we'll get into some combos Greninja does very often. Keep in mind all of these are done in Training Mode, so no moves are Stale:

(SS- Sweetspot)
(PP- Additional two Pummels. Possible at lower %'s.)
(PPP- Additional three Pummels. Possible at higher %'s.)
(Red Font - Low % Combo)
(Blue Font - Mid-High % Combo [KO'S])

3) U-Throw > U-Smash (SS) = 24% (28% PP)
U-Throw > U-Air > U-Air = 23% (27% PPP)
U-Throw > U-Air > U-Air > Hydro Pump = 31% (35% PPP)
U-Tilt > U-Tilt > U-Smash (SS) = 28%Til
4) D-Tilt > D-Tilt > Dash Attack > U-Smash (SS) = 40%
5) D-Throw > F-Tilt = 12% (16% PP)
6) D-Throw > F-Air = 20% (26% PPP)
N-Air > F-Tilt = 17%


Alright so here's another big issue particularly you and I have against Greninja: our stage selection.

As you know, we [my friend and I] commonly pick one out of three stages (Green Hill Zone, PictoChat 2, Balloon Fight) to reduce lag. However, two of these stages (PictoChat 2, Balloon Fight) are a serious issue when fighting Greninja. On these stages, particularly PictoChat 2, the shadow from Shadow Sneak is almost (in the case of PictoChat 2, completely) invisible. This means that every time Greninja walks forward, you have to watch out for a Shadow Sneak. Keep this in mind!

Alright, finally, here's some things a lot of Greninjas will do commonly:

• If it misses a 7) D-Air, it can will be cancelled into a Shadow Sneak.
• Water Shuriken.
• Sometimes Shadow Sneak behind you a fair distance and get away from your projectile insanity.
• It will almost NEVER use Counter.
• It will recover with unpredictability by using Hydro Pump, so don't try to gimp IT. If you miss your attack and end up behind it, you can easily be pushed to the edge of the screen by a shot of Hydro Pump.
• It will wall cling to the side of the stage to wait for you to let your guard downand go onstage and hit you with a B-Air or something. To avoid this, you could pick a stage with an Omega form that has no walls such as Magicant, Rainbow Road, or Prism Tower, BUT this will also cost you your Wall Jump to improve recovery, along with tossing bombs into the wall and hitting yourself to gain height (this can still be done to an extent.).
• If they get the opportunity, they will use U-Air as much as they can. Throw a Bomb down but not always. Mix it up with D-air or just Air Dodge and U-Air THEM.
• After they land a D-Air and they bounce off of you, they will either follow up with another D-Air which CAN be hard to dodge, since you don't see Greninjas doing that very often, or follow up with B-Air if youre behind them."

Here's a thing I wrote up, also pre-1.0.4., but again it's mostly still relevant:

"Greninja
Pros:
- 8) You can usually combo him with utilt until at least around 36%-39% if he's in front of the move.
- TL's utilt seems (emphasis on "seems"; I don't have much evidence to back this up) to come out faster than Greninja's. It seems to be true from my experience, since I've found when Greninja and TL show their utilt animation at the same time that TL's is the one that ends up hitting.
- Your Hylian shield blocks his water shuriken, including when fully charged. Keep this in mind, as Greninja's water shuriken can cause trouble for TL with its good speed and priority.
Cons:
- He can combo you with his utilt just as easily as you can combo him with yours because his utilt has the same range but less knockback. Being close enough to start a utilt combo on him puts you at the very same risk.
- TL's uair doesn't always beat his dair, and Greninja can combo one dair into another if you miss your techs, so uair isn't worth the risk if you see him dair.
- Greninja's recovery is hard to gimp, and attempting to gimp him can put you in a bad position because of hydro pump.
- His air game is much better than yours.
- His 9) water shuriken cancels out your boomerang and arrows, and it comes out faster than them.
- A lot of his moves outrange zair.
Strategy:
Toss bombs and maybe the boomerang if he gets above you. Bombs and the boomerang are your only hopes of trying to gimp him, though you still shouldn't get your hopes up on gimping him. If Greninja keeps recovering above the stage you can gimp him or at least scare him by using the boomerang and tossing a ton of bombs upwards, making it unsafe to recover above the stage. If he safely recovers above the stage despite the projectiles, his landing should be much easier to predict so you can punish. His water shuriken (or however it's spelled) clashes with your arrows and boomerang, so camp him with bombs. He hates bombs. Watch him carefully when you end up above him, as depending on what he does you should either dair if he tries to jump under you and uair you, or make it rain bombs if he stays on the ground. It's very common for Greninjas to jump under you and uair a few times in order to bait you into dairing later on, while they stay on the ground and wait so they can punish your dair. Do not let him bait you into fighting him from the air, since he'll win that every time. Watch out for the shadow of his shadow sneak. Even at low percents he can fast fall and uair you to the bottom of the stage so you can't recover. If you see the shadow from shadow sneak, shield it and dsmash. His water shuriken comes out faster than all of TL's projectiles. He still hates campers, though, so keep trying to camp. Just be unpredictable, don't spend too much time on the ground or in the air. Greninja mains loathe campers. Unfortunately, TL seems to be one of the campers that Greninja has an easier time dealing with.
Stages:
Greninja likes stages with a dark background or floor (especially floor) since it's hard or even impossible to see his shadow sneak. Avoid stages with platforms, since he can easily juggle the crap out of you on them. On Yoshi's Island watch out for Greninja dairing by the edge when you're on there, since it will hit you because of the slanted ground."

I`d like to point out some things that are outdated in this post after patch 1.0.4.
1) Hydro Pump got its pushback reduced, so now it cannot push you off the top of the screen anymore when you`re high in the air.
2) Fair got its knockback reduced, so even though it is still strong and still deals 14 damage, it doesn`t kill as early as before.
3) Uthrow -> Usmash is not a true combo and can be easily DI-ed or jumped out of.
4) Dtilt -> Dtilt -> Dash Attack -> Usmash is not a true combo because the Dtilt -> Dash Attack and Dash Attack -> Usmash parts can be escaped.
5) Dthrow -> Ftilt doesn`t combo at all. You have a lot of time after Dthrow to shield or dodge the Ftilt or any other follow-up. Greninja has no true combos from Dthrow.
6) Dthrow -> Fair can be used to surprise the opponent at above 100% when it links pretty well, but it can still be airdodged, so it is not a true combo.
7) Greninja cannot cancel Dair end lag into Shadow Sneak anymore, so you are always free to punish every missed Dair.
8) Greninja can escape the Utilt combos with Shadow Sneak, but you can punish us if the Shadow Sneak misses.
9) Water Shuriken got a lot of end lag, so now it doesn`t beat your projectiles so easily.

Some common Greninja combos that are inescapable and haven`t been mentioned in the quoted post are:
Nair -> Jab (21%)
Nair -> Dtilt (18%) - this can be followed up with Grab -> Uthrow -> Uair very easily, so mash jump after the Dtilt to escape.
Nair -> Usmash (40%) - watch out for a possible Uair follow-up after Usmash. It used to be a true combo, but now you have about 10 frames to escape the Uair.
Dash Attack -> Fair (21%)
Utilt -> Uair (14%) - this kills at around 110%, so try to stay out of Utilt range
fully charged Water Shuriken -> Usmash/Fair/Grab (26-31%) - this only works at very low %, but we can run after a charged WS and follow it up with almost any move at the end. The Fair, Grab and Shadow Sneak follow-ups work even at higher percents, so watch out for those since they can kill early.

In general short hop fast fall (SHFF) Nair is one of Greninja`s best approaches in this match-up and we can start many different combos off of Nair, so be prepared for it.
Boomerang is also risky to use at mid range or closer, because we can run towards you, short hop over it and punish with a Fair for 14% damage.

From my experience the match-up still seems to be in our favor, but not as high as 30-70. I feel like it is around 40-60 in our favor.

 

[Deleted member]

We're now discussing Jigglypuff and King DeDeDe, along with Greninja and Ike.

I don't have much experience with either character, but Jigglypuff is crazy good at gimping us (which the sliding spin attack custom move fixes perfectly and makes Jiggz's life miserable, but we're not talking about customs). As for King DeDeDe, our arrows (along with possibly every single one of our attacks) reflects his gordos back to him. His aerials and utilt have insane hitboxes, and aren't worth trying to challenge.

Also, for the Ganon match-up, is it alright if I go with 55:45 on that one? Verm says it's in our favor and 60:40 at absolute best and implied that it's probably not that much in our favor. Personally I've had a lot of experience with Ganon and don't think the match-up is as good as 60:40, either.

 

[PSIBoy]

While Dedede is slow and large (this makes his approaches harder), he has a significant range advantage over us thanks to his hammer. A smart Dedede would not use Gordos recklessly. He also is tough to KO, which is only amplified by our lack of KO moves outside smashes. While his attacks can be slow and laggy at the end, he has incredible KO power for some of his moves: make one wrong step around 100% and kiss your stock goodbye while get him up to 150% and he may still hang on. I'd say it would be 40-60 Dedede.

 

[SoundChow]

Dedede has a lot of jumps so he can get around projectiles and he has a ton of range with his hammer and down-tilt. He has a lot of kill power and can rack up percent really quickly so I'd agree with psiboy and say it's 40-60. I don't have too much experience with jiggs, but i'd say it's is a 50-50 matchup because of jiggs being killed really early with a bomb followup or a smash.

 

[Deleted member]

The DeDeDe match-up is pretty annoying. I'm surprised people are saying it's 40:60 DeDeDe's favor, though. Maybe I just haven't seen much of what DeDeDe can do since I haven't played very many DeDeDes, but 40:60 seems a bit much. As for the Jiggz match-up, I think it's probably in Jiggz's favor since she has an easy time avoiding all of our projectiles, and can KO us very early with her off-stage game and our recovery being really easy to gimp.

 

[thadd_fin]

I think the 40:60 for the Dedede MU is pretty accurate, ive gone against a few Dededes and have gotten wrecked because of his ability to just rack up percentage on me and DDD either hippity hoppin around my projectiles and then when id try to get some space they'd just use a Gordo to destroy my projectiles and then i'd still get nailed with the Gordo (effectively rendering me a useless cucumber).