Tier List Discussion as Apex's interesting top 8 is over

[KoRoBeNiKi]

Edit: Hello Grantland

I thought this would be an appropriate time to discuss a new tier list, now that the biggest ssb64 tournament of NA has happened.

Also since the previous one reflected Hyrule more.

A few major questions:

How much higher is Yoshi?

Who drops?

What matchups aren't nearly as bad as before?

 

[Maliki]

Tier lists don't exist
Player skill does

 

[SheerMadness]

Yoshi definitely above Mario.

Potentially above Fox. Yoshi has a lot more room for error due to a way better recover. Especially in tourney/high pressure situations.

Fox better vs Kirby but Yoshi better vs Pika IMO.

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

I do agree with this. I'd also put Falcon over Fox, outside of Yoshi maybe being over Fox, MAYBE.


As in:

Pikachu, Kirby, Falcon, Fox/Yoshi, Mario, charswedon'tcareabout10chars

 

[pidgezero_one]

Han solo is gonna love this

 

[Sedda]

when are we gonna put samus above ness and luigi?

 

[clubbadubba]

fox pika not that bad of a match up if played correctly. I actually think it's better than yoshi vs pika, though this is only coming from a Pikachu viewpoint. ld ran through me, banze, and mother ****ing dxtr in top 16. salty fox mains get better

 

[Shears]

There are no tier lists. The game is perfectly balanced.

 

[SheerMadness]

Fox certainly can be good vs Pika. LD is great vs Pika. He pwns my Pika way harder than any other Fox.

But Yoshi doesn't have to worry about dying from 1 grab. That can be mentally draining during a high pressure situation. That's why I say Yoshi is better.

 

[Annex]

heeee

 

[O.o-RITH-o.O]

If you consider that the tournaments are almost DL only.. idk, i think yoshi > fox > mario

i mean.. look at the results of apex 2014,2015, and the tournaments in japan

 

[The Star King]

Puff is better than Mario

 

[dahuterschuter]

Yeah I noticed a tonne of Yoshi this year outta no-where, one of the most consistently played characters. I'd put him at least up a slot after this performance but then I've always thought he was a paintrain so I might be Yoshibias.

 

[MrMarbles]

heeee

this is pretty much exactly how i would put it. I feel like tier lists are a bit misunderstood and shouldn't be over-emphasized. That being said ours is definitely out of date

if you look at tourneys over the past 2-3 years, those top 4 are the characters that consistently crack top 8

 

[Sedda]

heeee

I like this.

i would put samus over link, but overall im ok with this. luigi and ness deserve to be buried down there lol

i have to say that it hurts to see fox going below yoshi. fox has so much potential but it's just not showing.

 

[Kahnu]

Link is definitely worse than Samus.



Can this please be the official tier list?

 

[O.o-RITH-o.O]

i would put dk in last, unfortunately... i can kinda see more potential in luigi and link, and jousuke showed what samus can do.

 

[Kahnu]

Prepare the crucifixion cross, men!

 

[BananaBolts]

^this looks good to me, although the Mario and Puff placement could go either way at this point.
I hate to live in a world wherein Luigi is below Ness *sigh* I guess I need to accept it.

I think Yoshi is good but a lot of people didn't look like they had a good grasp on their MUs with Yoshi. Some people had really weak punishes and they didn't pay attention to super armor's percent breaks. A few players were punishing Yoshi well but it seemed like Yoshi was getting a lot of freebies. I dunno maybe I'm a scrub and don't know what I'm talking about :/

 

[MrMarbles]

i think the bottom 3 are all pretty much equal and u could put them in any order and it wouldn't matter

 

[O.o-RITH-o.O]

common.. dk is srsly better than samus? i dont know about that one, what is the last time you saw a dk place in top32 in a tournament? while samus we have JaimeHR, Jousuke showing that is possible.. and even link, sometimes we see a link in japan's top8, and that meant he won a lot of bo1 against good pikachus,falcons,etc..
idk, i dont play either of them to be honest, but seems wierd

 

[MrMarbles]

common.. dk is srsly better than samus? i dont know about that one, what is the last time you saw a dk place in top32 in a tournament? while samus we have JaimeHR, Jousuke showing that is possible.. and even link, sometimes we see a link in japan's top8, and that meant he won a lot of bo1 against good pikachus,falcons,etc..
idk, i dont play either of them to be honest, but seems wierd

i think it comes down to popularity. There's a few people that are actually really dedicated to samus and have stuck it out with her and gotten really good. But dk hasn't had that popularity. I think the Z placed high at a tourney with dk tho

 

[Bark Sanchez]

We need to have more low-tier tourneys to see how the lower end plays out imo

 

[Sedda]

common.. dk is srsly better than samus? i dont know about that one, what is the last time you saw a dk place in top32 in a tournament? while samus we have JaimeHR, Jousuke showing that is possible.. and even link, sometimes we see a link in japan's top8, and that meant he won a lot of bo1 against good pikachus,falcons,etc..
idk, i dont play either of them to be honest, but seems wierd

i dont know much about dk or samus to say which is better, but personally i like playing that matchup much more as samus. one bad matchup shouldnt determine where that character belongs on the tier list though.

link is different in J version, so i dont think the comparison is fair.

 

[asianaussie]

im really starting to think samus > DK because DK sucks and is fat

kinda digging yoshi > fox

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

It's hard to deny pretty consistent results.

i dont know much about dk or samus to say which is better, but personally i like playing that matchup much more as samus. one bad matchup shouldnt determine where that character belongs on the tier list though.

link is different in J version, so i dont think the comparison is fair.

DK is considered to be by far the worse in the J version, there is a reason why no one uses him there.

You can't really compare the scenes...outside of them having in general better character specialists, but matchups? Nah, there are way too many changes to compare there.

 

[The Star King]

Can someone explain to me why people still think Mario is better than Puff, other than being conservative with old tier list opinions?

Puff easily has better matchups vs the tourney relevant characters. Better vs Kirby and Yoshi, about the same vs Pikachu and Falcon (and honestly I might be being generous to Mario there, Pikachu vs Mario is truly awful, and Puff is pretty decent vs Falcon). In terms of tournament representation they are about the same, although I would argue that Puff's is a bit lower than it should be because many of her strengths overlap with, and thus are overshadowed by Kirby.

I'd also recommend considering putting Samus above DK.

 

[Mr Bushido]

S:
A:
B:
C:
D:

 

[Annex]

^ I think this is like the current average
does anyone seriously object

 

[Shears]

===========

The new tier list

 

[Luigisama]

Wow I'm surprised that there is more stuff being discovered for 64. Good stuff 64 conmunity.

 

[caneut]

===========

The new tier list

finallys someone gets it right

 

[Phislamajama]

out of the middle four on shears tier list.. fox, jiggly, mario, and samus. Which do you guys believe has the least bad matchup with pika?

 

[Shears]

out of the middle four on shears tier list.. fox, jiggly, mario, and samus. Which do you guys believe has the least bad matchup with pika?

They're even, they equally have the same matchup. Anyone have Jouskes difficult to operation graph? I think that better represents the characters and the game than a very unstable tier list.

 

[Sedda]

shears is easy to operation

i can beat him with my eyes closed

 

[Mr Bushido]

please no more of this all characters are equal nonsense/skill is all that matters. this is a 1999 party game which is miraculously well balanced enough as is, but far from perfect. pretending it is makes you sound very shallow and ignorant about the game

 

[O.o-RITH-o.O]

Stop dreaming about this game being balanced, it is not at all, never was. A lot of people have tryed to master bad characters like ness,link and dk thru the years and they never got good results vs top players using top chars.

Its not an accident we have tons of pikachus,yoshis,falcons and kirbys every tournament, especially since we have this DL festival now.

Your only chance to see a mid/low tier character doing well now is to wait for isai to use them, or go to japan watch jousuke, apart from that you will only see them in very rare counterpicks like mariguas did with jigg, because the real world is ruled by 4 characters.

 

[Shears]

shears is easy to operation

i can beat him with my eyes closed

Have you watched the match? It was one of the best laughs I've had in a long time.

 

[bowl]

Have you watched the match? It was one of the best laughs I've had in a long time.

where can i find it?

 

[Sedda]

@ Shears i need to look it up. do you have the time for the vod?

anyway, i dont COMPLETELY agree with Rith. some of the mid tiers can do damage against the top tiers. it takes more effort for sure, but it's not impossible. Tacos didnt use puff for the hell of it. Ybombb took killer out and was up against wizzy 3 stocks to one, but he ****ed up and used pound at the wrong time, saved wizzy, and he was able to turn things around. fireblaster still uses mario for some matchups, and afaik he doesnt consider himself a yoshi main really (according to that podcast with him and boom).

even though nobody uses DK in tournament, there were a few players at apex this year who couldve gotten far with him.
karajan was beating people up with his DK the first night, but im not sure which character he used in tournament. Z, tacos, and SK have really good DK's. They're not even DK mains, but I know that they could get far with them if they decided to practice their DK's consistently before a tournament. Near also has a good DK from what I saw.

cobr has an amazing samus, and ive seen plenty of sets where he couldve won but he simply ****ed up edgeguards and pretty much defeated himself. i would put him at or above several people who placed top 16 at apex this year (cobr dont be a ***** and stay).

regardless of that, you cant really think that all characters are the same and that the game is prefectly balanced. even if you take something like the jousuke chart and you look at which characters are more difficult to operation, you cant deny that some characters are clearly better at certain matchups. i would still prefer a jousuke chart + matchup chart over a tier list, but thats just me