Data 'The Wise Ganon' (ATS/Frame Data/Guides & Competitive Discussion)

[Opana]

Allright, so I tested the true combos from a cancelled Dair.
Remember that the ones that pop the enemy in the air can be tetched, so they turn into tech-chases.
Here are the guaranteed follow-ups, all of them are tested on Mario in training mode, with the rage always nullified by eating an heart container, and with no DI, also, the range in wich the percentage will work, is before the Dair connects. Also, the attack are pergormed as soon as possible, some of them might true combo if delayed, but then the reward would be overshadowed by the one of slower and stronger moves:
Jab
Is true between 5% and 23%
It deals 27%
FThrow
Is true between 5% and 18%
It deals 32%
How do I know that it is true if the combo count resets when I grab? Because the grab has the same start-up of his jab.
Dthrow->Wizard Dropkick
Is true between 17% and 18%. Yes, it is literally a single percent window, at least against Mario, but remember that this window is needed for the DThrow to combo from the calcelled Dair, the DThrow->WDK alone is true until 49%.
It deals 35%
DTilt
Is true between 8% and 17%
It deals 32%, however, the DTilt has more range than the grab so you can connect it more easily.
FTilt
Is true between 10% and 19%
Deals 32%
DSmash
Is true between 17% and 23%
Deals 40% if both all hits connect, 25% if only the first one does
USmash
Is true between 27% and 36%
Deals 43%
It requires precise spacing, you may need to hypen smash or reverse the USmash depending on wich part of the Dair hits.
I tested togheter short-hopped aerials and full hopped ones, though that shouldn't matter that much given the knockback scaling of the Dair.
Nair
Is true between 17% and 62%
Deals 31% as only the first hit connects, 28% if the second does. Deedless to say, if you do everything correctly, you will always hit with the first hit.
Also, technically the Nair has the same start-up as the jab, however, because of the new buffering system, you short hop and Nair as fast.
Uair
Is true between 15% and 73%
Deals 32%
Having a wider reach where this combo is possible and dealing more damage, this combo is always better than the Nair, unless Stale Move Negation comes in play.
GANNON-BAN COMBO 1
I want to continue on the path of "Hell Drop" and call this
Phantom Crusher
Fair
It's true between 30% and 67%, at starting from 50% at the ledge, even without rage, the combo throws Mario to the blast line, just the perfect situation to complete a GANNON-BAN.
Note that in order for it to be a true combo, you must hit with the hitbox above Ganon's head
GANNON-BAN COMBO 2
Death hand
Bair
It's true between 20% and 59% and is a GANNON-BAN combo for the same reason as the Fair, with the difference that from the ledge and without rage, it needs 40% in order to throw Mario to the li,it of the blast line.
The two following GANNON-BAN combos aren't guaranteed, but unlike the previous two, they cause the death of Mario no matter what, in other words, they aren't guaranteed to connect but are guaranteed to K.O. Mario, so you can use them as mix-up between the true combos, since they are just too powerful to ignore. Speaking of this, the third needs 30%, to hit properly an unprepared opponent, the 4 needs 40%, both need both you and your opponent at the ledge, and cause the death of Mario no matter what, guess some of you already understood at what I'm referring to.
GANNON-BAN COMBO 3
Shadow crush
You can jump over Mario and deathspike him with the wizkick, Ganon will land onstage
GANNON-BAN COMBO 4
Abyss choke
Aerudo
Guess you know what to do next
TL;DR: DAIR IS BROKEN.
I discarded the rest of the moves either because they didn't have any true combo(FSmash) or because they weren't neither fast or stong enough(both in damage and knockback) to have some uses in combos(Dark Dive and Wizard Dropkick).
The only one that might have some use is Dark fists, but i still havent't it.
On a side note, i find it fairly easy to cancel the Dair by short-hopping, and Dairing on reaction when I see Ganon that starts falling down.

Good stuff, but doesn't flamechoke work too?

 

[_Magus_]

What about the best combo ever, Dair into dair? XD

 

[MezzoMe]

Good stuff, but doesn't flamechoke work too?

The Aerudo is faster than his grounded version, as such, it's more difficult to react to the mix-up. Also you cannot kill aith the grounded flame choke, but only with the Aerudo for obvious reasons.

What about the best combo ever, Dair into dair? XD

Tried it, and unfortunately, it isn't true, just as the FSmash.
Aerudo and the deathspike got still included because of how strong they are, but while his Wizard Foot spike hitbox got drastically stonger, the Dair got weaker and no more kills at 0%, unlike the wizard foot, also, it sends the opponent's straight down, so unless they DI outward, they aren't going to die.

 

[_Magus_]

The Aerudo is faster than his grounded version, as such, it's more difficult to react to the mix-up. Also you cannot kill aith the grounded flame choke, but only with the Aerudo for obvious reasons.

Tried it, and unfortunately, it isn't true, just as the FSmash.
Aerudo and the deathspike got still included because of how strong they are, but while his Wizard Foot spike hitbox got drastically stonger, the Dair got weaker and no more kills at 0%, unlike the wizard foot, also, it sends the opponent's straight down, so unless they DI outward, they aren't going to die.

Still gonna do it and pretend this is PM

 

[MezzoMe]

Still gonna do it and pretend this is PM

Last time Hax used like it was things didn't look that funny, I must say.

Spoiler

They looked funnier

 

[A2ZOMG]

Okay guys, I have THE BEST use for Ganondorf's U-throw ever.

Use it against Shield Shulk. No seriously, just do it. He's so terrible at landing safely, and this is the best way to stall out that art and refresh moves before you kill him. With good mechanics, you should have no trouble following his movement and grabbing him again as he lands.

Against Smash and Buster, I sometimes opt to ledge stall it until it's gone in case you were wondering, because it can be really risky to let him punish you while he has those arts up. It's less of a gamble to fight against Speed and Jump imo. Against Speed, he will often be looking to grab you, so throw out N-airs and Wizkick to discourage that and then try to figure out when he likes to space his aerials before moving in. Against Jump, you primarily have to be careful when you're offstage, because he can easily follow your movement and KO you if you don't react to him chasing you.

 

[the king of murder]

Okay guys, I have THE BEST use for Ganondorf's U-throw ever.

Use it against Shield Shulk. No seriously, just do it. He's so terrible at landing safely, and this is the best way to stall out that art and refresh moves before you kill him. With good mechanics, you should have no trouble following his movement and grabbing him again as he lands.

Against Smash and Buster, I sometimes opt to ledge stall it until it's gone in case you were wondering, because it can be really risky to let him punish you while he has those arts up. It's less of a gamble to fight against Speed and Jump imo. Against Speed, he will often be looking to grab you, so throw out N-airs and Wizkick to discourage that and then try to figure out when he likes to space his aerials before moving in. Against Jump, you primarily have to be careful when you're offstage, because he can easily follow your movement and KO you if you don't react to him chasing you.

Sorry for off topic but it seems convenient. What do you think of the Shulk MU?

 

[A2ZOMG]

Seems even to me for now. It's a very volatile matchup like vs Bowser, because both characters are heavily punish based. Ganondorf has better juggles and blitz approaches, but Shulk does win very slightly in midrange and is able to outspace Ganon's D-tilt and N-air.

 

[the king of murder]

Isnt Speed Shulk kind of a problem for us? I think Shulk has a juggle game against us as well and with speed he can easily get his game going.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Isnt Speed Shulk kind of a problem for us? I think Shulk has a juggle game against us as well and with speed he can easily get his game going.

I mean...sorta. But at the same time I feel like he actually does a pretty bad job of abusing Speed against Ganondorf. Sure, he'll get free grabs here and there, but his grab reward with Speed is pretty crappy. Also his aerials are slow unlike Captain Falcon's. You can usually disrupt his spacing with the usual lingering N-air and Wizkick, which yes are punishable, but Speed Shulk does less damage.

Shulk's best arts against Ganondorf are Buster and Jump imo. Actually most of the time, he should just be going normal against Ganondorf imo.

 

[Opana]

I choke to dtilt repeatedly on shield shulks lol

 

[A2ZOMG]

I choke to dtilt repeatedly on shield shulks lol

I mean, that's cool and all, but you're also staling some of your best moves sorta unnecessarily by doing that. I feel U-throw is more efficient because of that. Accomplishes about the same thing but with a normally less commonly used move. Also, the positional advantage from U-throw on Shield Shulk is better than D-tilt which makes it easier to follow landing for more followups.

 

[Opana]

I don't see a problem with choke staling, and fresh dtilts are nice but I use it more for damage racking than kos.

 

[Xinc]

I don't see a problem with choke staling, and fresh dtilts are nice but I use it more for damage racking than kos.

It's more or less the situation. If you're in the lead or even match in stock, then it's a good option. But if you're in the tough situation and need to close out a stock quickly, you want to keep your primary kill moves fresh.

 

[Opana]

It's more or less the situation. If you're in the lead or even match in stock, then it's a good option. But if you're in the tough situation and need to close out a stock quickly, you want to keep your primary kill moves fresh.

Choke isn't a primary kill move, and dtilt can be although I rarely use it for kills as the majority of my kills are from edge guarding.

 

[Jiom]

Choke isn't a primary kill move, and dtilt can be although I rarely use it for kills as the majority of my kills are from edge guarding.

According to For Glory records, most of my kills come from smash attacks and air attacks, d tilt and down b usually come as my desperation kill moves when I just can't seem to land a kill move.

 

[Opana]

According to For Glory records, most of my kills come from smash attacks and air attacks, d tilt and down b usually come as my desperation kill moves when I just can't seem to land a kill move.

Standard 22
Strong 747
Smash 1106
Air 1790
Special 1253
Meteor 192
Throw 90
Floor Attacks 4
Edge Attacks 0
Other 245

So air attacks have quite the lead as I expected.

I think dtilt is better used for poking outside their range and combo/stringing than killing tbh.

 

[Xinc]

Standard 22
Strong 747
Smash 1106
Air 1790
Special 1253
Meteor 192
Throw 90
Floor Attacks 4
Edge Attacks 0
Other 245

So air attacks have quite the lead as I expected.

I think dtilt is better used for poking outside their range and combo/stringing than killing tbh.

Oh, I was referring to down tilt rather than choke since choke can't kill outside of aerial side b.

Down Tilt can be used to poke, as can forward tilt. I personally like that side b to (untouched) down tilt. But outside that, it is a good poke, imo

 

[_Magus_]

I usually end up using choke > d tilt for damage racking, and also to finish off stocks if nothing else is working (provided choke to d tilt works on the character, that is). I usually don't have any trouble killing, and d tilt is my insurance kill move. It's there if things get out of hand, and it can be comboed into on a lot of characters.

Edit:

Okay guys, I have THE BEST use for Ganondorf's U-throw ever.

Use it against Shield Shulk. No seriously, just do it. He's so terrible at landing safely, and this is the best way to stall out that art and refresh moves before you kill him. With good mechanics, you should have no trouble following his movement and grabbing him again as he lands.

Against Smash and Buster, I sometimes opt to ledge stall it until it's gone in case you were wondering, because it can be really risky to let him punish you while he has those arts up. It's less of a gamble to fight against Speed and Jump imo. Against Speed, he will often be looking to grab you, so throw out N-airs and Wizkick to discourage that and then try to figure out when he likes to space his aerials before moving in. Against Jump, you primarily have to be careful when you're offstage, because he can easily follow your movement and KO you if you don't react to him chasing you.

Wouldn't this work for other easily juggled characters, such as marth/lucina? Or is it just the fact that shulk's weight and fall speed are increased by Shield that makes it so effective?

 

[A2ZOMG]

I usually end up using choke > d tilt for damage racking, and also to finish off stocks if nothing else is working (provided choke to d tilt works on the character, that is). I usually don't have any trouble killing, and d tilt is my insurance kill move. It's there if things get out of hand, and it can be comboed into on a lot of characters.

Edit:


Wouldn't this work for other easily juggled characters, such as marth/lucina? Or is it just the fact that shulk's weight and fall speed are increased by Shield that makes it so effective?

It's precisely that Shulk's weight is increased and his mobility is decreased that U-throw is ridiculously good against him. There really isn't another character in the game that lacks aerial mobility to that extent.

I will occasionally use U-throw in matchups like Ganon dittos and vs Falcon to sometimes try to figure out how they respond to being above me, and because the move in a way serves as a "corner carry" when your opponent tries to DI away from you to avoid getting juggled, which if you read, you can catch with Wizkick to put them offstage. D-throw at moderately high percents tends to be less useful if your opponent DIs away from you (which they usually won't next to the ledge), but U-throw at a certain percent range can be a valuable positional advantage tool to force your opponent to put themselves in a bad position as they try to get away from above you.

Most of the time though, if you can get a clean edgeguard opportunity from F-throw/B-throw, you want to do that.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Okay guys, this is fairly advanced, but this imo will be REALLY IMPORTANT when playing against characters that are able to edgeguard you very aggressively and may be a reason for some of you to turn off Tap Jump.

While saving your jump, Up-B into your opponent with the expectation that either you will grab your opponent, or they will hit you after you Up-B. If you're running Dark Fists and WDK, you probably shouldn't worry about this too much and usually just hope you can armor your way past edgeguards.

Most of the time, if you either manage to grab your opponent, or if they hit you after you Up-B, and if you saved your midair jump, you are actually very likely to survive almost every edgeguard in the game that isn't explicitly a spike or a straight up offstage KO.

Another thing that is very important when recovering low ESPECIALLY with default Up-B is knowing when to do reverse Up-B. This has the advantage of not allowing your opponent to tech the stage to punish you for Up-Bing. This can also be an effective way of edgeguarding in some situations.

This isn't something you will abuse all the time. It's simply a potential counter-response to ways your opponent can edgeguard you.

 

[Opana]

I actually do that frequently and also recommend that. I also recommend never using your second jump unless necessary.

 

[A2ZOMG]

So, spacing D-air in neutral seems surprisingly important.

I've watched Gungnir do this, and I think I understand why. A lot of people will try to space in a way to adjust to your horizontal spacing options like F-air, N-air, and B-air. Adjusting your spacing to D-air instead can often throw your opponent off and get around their usual spacing tools. D-air's hitbox has good range, and it does a massive amount of damage, and at lowish percents you can get combos or traps from this move on hit, and it can be deceptively hard to punish on block because most people are not used to the shield hitlag and pushback that D-air induces, even though it's laggy. People don't always tech it, and even if they do tech it, they usually can't punish you as hard as you just punished them.

The other fairly obvious use for D-air is of course punishing inward rolls on demand, and sometimes punishing spotdodge or dashgrab attempts fluidly in close range situations (when you D-air, your hurtbox is raised upwards for a little bit, which can let you dodge some things on the ground).

Even though D-air was nerfed in this game and no longer serves as a bread and butter for Ganon, the fact Ganon's horizontal spacing tools are better actually makes his D-air overall a more useful tool, because it covers completely different options than his horizontal spacing tools, which your opponent won't always be covering in neutral.

This is not something you should go out of your way to abuse. You still should mostly focus on N-airs, F-airs, DA, and tilts as the core of your gameplan. I'm just explaining that D-air in neutral does have a purpose that can't be ignored.

 

[Scraptor]

I was wondering the most efficient ways to train up. I don’t have a lot of time as I am sure most of you don’t but I feel like I have hit a wall. I kind of fall into the trap of just doing whatever in a match with no real consistency from match to match. I am also still sometimes throwing smashs when I want a quick tilt, or SDing because I hit the wrong move trying to edge guard or recover.

So my question is how I should focus my training? I come up with a few ideas let me know what you think.

Create a list of moves and combos and Use training mode to practice combos and throwing moves a whole lot

Use For Glory to pick objectives to hit like I am going to Grab at least 2 times with one being a Dthrow>Bair once at low percent, connect a Nair offstage, and Ftilt twice.

Or is it a combination of both with maybe doing 50 Ftilts, 50 Dthrows>Bair, and 50 Nair edge guards in Training mode then going to a FG match(or Level 9s) and saying I am going to only Throw, Ftilt, and Nair edge guard regardless of result or character.

 

[TheGreatBrawler]

So, spacing D-air in neutral seems surprisingly important.

I've watched Gungnir do this, and I think I understand why. A lot of people will try to space in a way to adjust to your horizontal spacing options like F-air, N-air, and B-air. Adjusting your spacing to D-air instead can often throw your opponent off and get around their usual spacing tools. D-air's hitbox has good range, and it does a massive amount of damage, and at lowish percents you can get combos or traps from this move on hit, and it can be deceptively hard to punish on block because most people are not used to the shield hitlag and pushback that D-air induces, even though it's laggy. People don't always tech it, and even if they do tech it, they usually can't punish you as hard as you just punished them.

The other fairly obvious use for D-air is of course punishing inward rolls on demand, and sometimes punishing spotdodge or dashgrab attempts fluidly in close range situations (when you D-air, your hurtbox is raised upwards for a little bit, which can let you dodge some things on the ground).

Even though D-air was nerfed in this game and no longer serves as a bread and butter for Ganon, the fact Ganon's horizontal spacing tools are better actually makes his D-air overall a more useful tool, because it covers completely different options than his horizontal spacing tools, which your opponent won't always be covering in neutral.

This is not something you should go out of your way to abuse. You still should mostly focus on N-airs, F-airs, DA, and tilts as the core of your gameplan. I'm just explaining that D-air in neutral does have a purpose that can't be ignored.

Even with the dair nerfed it's still the strongest in the game. Ganon's nair is practically unusable, at least for me...

 

[A2ZOMG]

Even with the dair nerfed it's still the strongest in the game. Ganon's nair is practically unusable, at least for me...

Just SH N-air and profit whenever you need a spacing tool that covers air options. It ain't hard.

You can also fullhop airdodge -> N-air, and at low percents, landing a N-air on your opponent can combo into a tilt or grab.

 

[TheGreatBrawler]

Just SH N-air and profit whenever you need a spacing tool that covers air options. It ain't hard.

You can also fullhop airdodge -> N-air, and at low percents, landing a N-air on your opponent can combo into a tilt or grab.

Still need to get used to tap jump off considering I played with it for very long time. What button do you recommend for me to use for jump when it comes up to Ganondorf?

 

[A2ZOMG]

You could do what I do and play this game on a Wii-U pro controller. Change your L/R buttons to Grab, and your Z buttons to Shield, and then enjoy how the X and Y buttons are positioned very nicely above both the A and B button.

But if you're going with a GCN controller, jump with Y, and switch X to specials to make things easy on your right thumb.

I mean, everyone should be effectively doing something like this when trying to properly buffer inputs. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JyZUlALAArc

 

[_Magus_]

You could do what I do and play this game on a Wii-U pro controller. Change your L/R buttons to Grab, and your Z buttons to Shield, and then enjoy how the X and Y buttons are positioned very nicely above both the A and B button.

I mean, everyone should be effectively doing something like this when trying to properly buffer inputs. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JyZUlALAArc

This is my setup. I use a classic controller pro with a Wii Remote+. Very little input lag, and I find that the buttons are easier to press quickly.

 

[TheGreatBrawler]

You could do what I do and play this game on a Wii-U pro controller. Change your L/R buttons to Grab, and your Z buttons to Shield, and then enjoy how the X and Y buttons are positioned very nicely above both the A and B button.

But if you're going with a GCN controller, jump with Y, and switch X to specials to make things easy on your right thumb.

I mean, everyone should be effectively doing something like this when trying to properly buffer inputs. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JyZUlALAArc

I will probably keep my shield and grab as it is but I will give jump a try on y with specials on x, thanks for the help.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Updated the front page with a listed match-up chart with what we've concluded so far, and a few more additions.

From worst to best (so far):

Rosalina: 35:65
Yoshi: 45:55
Luigi: 45:55
Peach: 45:55
Mario: 50:50
Bowser: 50:50

Mean: 46.67/53.33 (How Ganon fairs overall against the cast)
Mode: 50:50 (Neutral match-ups most common)
Median: 45:55 (The Middle Value, not really important)
Worst: 35:65 (Rosalina)
Best: 50:50 (Bowser, Mario)

I'll update as we go on.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Updated the front page with a listed match-up chart with what we've concluded so far, and a few more additions.

From worst to best (so far):

Rosalina: 35:65
Yoshi: 45:55
Luigi: 45:55
Peach: 45:55
Mario: 50:50
Bowser: 50:50

Mean: 46.67/53.33 (How Ganon fairs overall against the cast)
Mode: 50:50 (Neutral match-ups most common)
Median: 45:55 (The Middle Value, not really important)
Worst: 35:65 (Rosalina)
Best: 50:50 (Bowser, Mario)

I'll update as we go on.

The Mario matchup is outdated, given we got buffs since the last time we discussed it.

 

[thadd_fin]

I have found the holy grail of Ganon information Embarrass I got a lot of reading ahead of me

 

[jahkzheng]

Standard 22
Strong 747
Smash 1106
Air 1790
Special 1253
Meteor 192
Throw 90
Floor Attacks 4
Edge Attacks 0
Other 245

So air attacks have quite the lead as I expected.

I think dtilt is better used for poking outside their range and combo/stringing than killing tbh.

Oh, this looks fun. Unfortunately, 1v1s don't get their own sub info like this or even just characters so my results wouldn't actually show how I play Ganon in 1v1s. Maybe if I went by a specific name when I played as Ganon, but I don't. I'll list my results too though just for fun, heh.

Standard - 14
Strong - 143
Smash Attacks - 570
Air - 344
Special - 406
Meteor - 151
Throw - 35
Floor Attacks - 3
Edge Attacks - 0
Other - 177

Looks like Opana has played a lot more than me in general, heh. I'm more of a smasher and less of an aerial attacker. But then this is taking into account chaotic and silly 2v2s and FFAs.

 

[Opana]

Unsure if old, but I was landing over a banana and pressed A to have it in hand while laglessly transitioning into an idle position I could act out of immediately iirc.

 

[Shmeckie]

Maybe this is old news, I dunno, but I don't think I've ever seen this discussed, even back in Brawl; Ganon's F-smash has some level of dodging ability. Nerfed from what it was in Brawl, but when Ganon leans back to do the elbow, his hurtbox leans back, too. It's only a brief window, but timed right you can quickly dodge and punish an attack. Back in Brawl F-smash excelled at punishing jump-ins. Like, it was stupid good. Hell, even Ike's big ol' aerial sword swing could be dodged with the F-Smash's lean (also nerfed from Brawl? Friggin' down-directed F-Smash doesn't have the near perfectly horizontal trajectory it used to. A down-directed F-smash could kill ridiculously early because of that trajectory back then. Now it's only slightly less of an arc than a normal F-smash). What I have noticed it works well on is dash attacks. If executed right before a (non-meaty) dash attack would hit, Ganon will lean back, avoid the hit, and lurch forward with the elbow. Doesn't work well against dash attacks like Dedede's or DK's for obvious reasons, but if the opponent goes for the dash attack early enough, F-Smash can punish it hard. I don't believe it worked as well for that in Brawl, but I'll be damned if it hasn't worked time and time again in Smash 4.

Now, I can't 100% confirm this because I haven't done extensive testing in training mode or what have you, but from my experience he's either invincible from his arms to his head during the actual elbow thrust, or at least has insane priority. And from what I can tell, tilting the smash down exploits this rather well. Also you can poke under shields with an attack that strong!

What I'm saying is the F-smash's potential as a brutal punish for a good read seems underutilized, from what I've been seeing/reading.

 

[jahkzheng]

@ Shmeckie

This is well known I'd say. I myself love reading approaches and withdrawing with fsmash to punish. A safer alternative is pivot ftilts, but going for the big fsmash read is very satisfying. I probably try for it too much frankly. Just remembering one I pulled on Sykka in dittos. He wizkicked toward me after I faked some aerial approaches, but I'd pulled back with fsmash and was out of range of the end hitbox on wizkick. He slide right up to me and I fsmashed through him so that he flew into the blastzone over my shoulder. Dang, I have to play him again. Good fun close matches. He has to get his controller fixed.

Also, I wouldn't say fsmash is worse than it was in Brawl by default in regards to it's withdraw and lunge forward, but Brawl did have salmon smashing to extend your reach even further. Not sure on the priority or invincibility, but the move does very significant damage so it eats weaker hits just fine, aka, it's a trade winner for sure.

 

[Shmeckie]

I'd say F-smash is better in Smash 4 in terms of damage and K.O. power (or at least it feels better), but it's lost the exploitable little things it could do in Brawl (straight trajectory is gone on the downward version and doesn't dodge aerials nearly as well).

 

[JmacAttack]

Isnt Speed Shulk kind of a problem for us? I think Shulk has a juggle game against us as well and with speed he can easily get his game going.

Shulk isn't suddenly Sonic just because gains Sanic's run speed, as his attacks have endlag that won't let him just zoom through our shield and end up on the other end of FD. Most of his grounded attacks are actually pretty laggy, moreso even than Ganon's. He has poor options out of grab, so his boosted dashgrab isn't that threatening. Shulk's juggle game is also fairly weak; nair has a very slow rotating hitbox, and all his other aerials have extremely linear hitboxes. Shulk is better off using his aerials as punish options and approaches than juggles, because hitting a moving target with his aerials feels harder than landing a Warlock Punch. You have to be aware of his easy autocancels though, as he isn't vulnerable while landing, so don't drop shield too early - wait out his autocancel to jab/tilt, and THEN punish. If he likes to autocancel to grab, Nair/Bair OOS is also useful. His own Nair starts low, so ours beats it. His fair has a small windup time that can be beaten by our faster aerials.

Honestly, I deal with Speed Shulk the easiest. He runs at me, and I do a flame choke techchase. Shulk is a character who gets screwed by Choke, and we have guaranteed followups. By the time the chase is over, his monado's worn off. He's honestly better off going for Buster right off the bat, or even just leaving the Monado off.

Shulk, as others have said, is an even matchup, but VERY volatile. Just as Ganondorf can end a life with one read, Shulk can do the same to Ganon with the best counter in the game. In that sense, Shulk thrives off of making you THINK you read him like a book, then reversing the situation entirely. This has counterplay, too, though, and is part of what makes Shulk such a fun matchup. If you bait out and read a counter, he dies. Ultimately, though, Shulk and Ganon both play similar games of bait-and-punish, they just go about it in entirely different ways. Both characters can obliterate each other in an instant with one read, so momentum is not as important as presence of mind, mindgames, and situational awareness. Whoever wins is going to win spectacularly, and everyone is going to have had a grand old time.

Funnily enough, Shulk's recovery is even more linear and predictable than Ganondorf's, and his up-B has trouble sweetspotting the ledge to boot, so going for uptilt edgeguards is entirely viable.

 

[MezzoMe]

At the end of the previous page I posted the true combos on Mario from a cancelled Dair.
I found out that in training mode rage is ignored, anyway, I said that I didn't have Dark Fists unlocked, wich was the only potentially useful move to combo from a cancelled Dair, well, it turns out that it is a true combo, yet this combo, that I'll call
Paranoia Chaser
turned out to be slighty more useful than I predicted.
Ok, so let's get everything straight.
At the start you see me practicing a bullet time effect with the camera, yes I know that I should've taken away the info, but I'm too lazy to start again the replay.
First off, without rage the combo is true between 17% and 45%, killing after 40%. Of course if the opponent trips it can be a true combo even at 0%, just as the FSmash (43% damage) is, but the attack has a chance to trip only when he won't make the opponent bounce.
With maximum rage Ganondorf kills with this combo from 13% to ~%30.
The massive hitlag allows for DI, however what you saw was from a standard Dark Fists, as such you can adapt to the opponent's DI to hit with the second hit. As for the second hit, as you saw, the attack already has a whopping 67,5° so he won't survive too much longer.