The Unofficial Super Smash Bros Balancing Committee- Anything and everything!

[MarioMeteor]

It is a happy day for Roy mains everywhere.

 

[L9999]

So I was around and I saw this thread is still alive. I read through the whole thing, and I decided to make a list of all the characters that "need" buffs and got no opposition. Most of the things I listed are Brawl un-nerfs, popular opinion and some of mine. Shout outs to PHP from the Palutena boards (because I know nothing about Palutena and this thread didn't helped me either) and @Feelicks, for giving me an idea on when to start with most of the characters. Of course, it's opinion and if you disagree, try to be civilized and don't flame me, please...At least bother to read it.... EDIT: Point of this is to establish the "official" list of changes of the Committee. Like if we were making a mod but we aren't. After all the thread is hypothetical......

 

[Deleted member]

So I was around and I saw this thread is still alive. I read through the whole thing, and I decided to make a list of all the characters that "need" buffs and got no opposition. Most of the things I listed are Brawl un-nerfs, popular opinion and some of mine. Shout outs to PHP from the Palutena boards (because I know nothing about Palutena and this thread didn't helped me either) and @Feelicks, for giving me an idea on when to start with most of the characters. Of course, it's opinion and if you disagree, try to be civilized and don't flame me, please...At least bother to read it....

Yo. Thanks for the shout-out.

This is a very reasonable list, I particularly agree with the changes to Zard and Palutena.

I myself am surprised you didn't do Dedede though, lol

 

[L9999]

Yo. Thanks for the shout-out.

This is a very reasonable list, I particularly agree with the changes to Zard and Palutena.

I myself am surprised you didn't do Dedede though, lol

That guy's impressions are more inconsistent than Zelda's. Zelda was easy, I'm familiar with her flaws. DDD, not so much and a BILLION different opinions that don't match. I'm doing the "little opposition" now, so DDD is coming up. The next batch of characters is FULL of debate inducing characters (), so it will be hard to do the "definitive" list of changes.

 

[MarioMeteor]

So I was around and I saw this thread is still alive. I read through the whole thing, and I decided to make a list of all the characters that "need" buffs and got no opposition. Most of the things I listed are Brawl un-nerfs, popular opinion and some of mine. Shout outs to PHP from the Palutena boards (because I know nothing about Palutena and this thread didn't helped me either) and @Feelicks, for giving me an idea on when to start with most of the characters. Of course, it's opinion and if you disagree, try to be civilized and don't flame me, please...At least bother to read it.... EDIT: Point of this is to establish the "official" list of changes of the Committee. Like if we were making a mod but we aren't. After all the thread is hypothetical......

I agree with all of the Jigglybuffs except for up throw. I think that should be a KO throw and down throw should be the combo throw.

 

[L9999]

Part 2 is done. The "Community overall wants buffs: little opposition. Now, since almost every character here is debate inducing PLEASE DON'T KILL ME. This is not final, just hypothetical. I can edit it later! Just opinions. Unknown characters really bite....

I agree with all of the Jigglybuffs except for up throw. I think that should be a KO throw and down throw should be the combo throw.

Thanks for the comment. Now, the throw thing with Puff has a lot of debate. Some say she should have D-Throw follow-ups and some say a universal Space Animal Slayer. Now, in my opinion, Jigglypuff shouldn't go off running around trying to D-Throw people like if she was or . Her grab range and running speed are both terrible, so she can't get grabs often. I see U-Throw-Rest as something that punishes the opponent for playing the match poorly/trump card hidden in the sleeve. Like jumping at Jigglypuff's shield and don't expect to get punished, and die at mid percents. Of course, the JP player can also look to U-Throw Rest people, but it shouldn't be the main focus like say, DK's Hoo-hah. And if Bair was really frikin strong like I listed, and with the improvement to Jigglypuff's Smash attacks, she shouldn't have trouble KOing to have a direct kill throw.

 

[FamilyTeam]

The document is really well done, but...
quoting the document:
"Because she [Lucina] is so trash she needs it, and I don’t think it will break anything. No casuals play Lucina anyways."
That was... unnecessarily harsh. It's not like she was unusable even before her buffs, now with her buffs she's far more useful.
I know, she's still far from tournament viable and the representation she gets both in her moveset and tournament results honestly hurts my feelings...

 

[L9999]

The document is really well done, but...
quoting the document:
"Because she [Lucina] is so trash she needs it, and I don’t think it will break anything. No casuals play Lucina anyways."
That was... unnecessarily harsh. It's not like she was unusable even before her buffs, now with her buffs she's far more useful.
I know, she's still far from tournament viable and the representation she gets both in her moveset and tournament results honestly hurts my feelings...

Yeah sorry about that. I play Lucina sometimes, and the negativity regarding Lucina's existence gets on me.

 

[MarioMeteor]

Part 2 is done. The "Community overall wants buffs: little opposition. Now, since almost every character here is debate inducing PLEASE DON'T KILL ME. This is not final, just hypothetical. I can edit it later! Just opinions. Unknown characters really bite....

Thanks for the comment. Now, the throw thing with Puff has a lot of debate. Some say she should have D-Throw follow-ups and some say a universal Space Animal Slayer. Now, in my opinion, Jigglypuff shouldn't go off running around trying to D-Throw people like if she was or . Her grab range and running speed are both terrible, so she can't get grabs often. I see U-Throw-Rest as something that punishes the opponent for playing the match poorly/trump card hidden in the sleeve. Like jumping at Jigglypuff's shield and don't expect to get punished, and die at mid percents. Of course, the JP player can also look to U-Throw Rest people, but it shouldn't be the main focus like say, DK's Hoo-hah. And if Bair was really frikin strong like I listed, and with the improvement to Jigglypuff's Smash attacks, she shouldn't have trouble KOing to have a direct kill throw.

Well, I'm not suggesting a Hoo-Ha. I mean, of course I want the throw to be strong, but I don't think anybody wants anymore Diddys than we already have. I say make it around the same potency as Roy's down throw. Nothing too strong, but you're eating something if you react bad. It would also help vary the character, too. As it stands you're probably going to be using one of Jigglypuff's four throws. With two more useable ones, that number jumps to three.
Also, I'd like to point out that I suggested most of those Doc buffs.

 

[GanonMain]

I feel like the character who needs buffs the most right now is probably gunner. They have no combo throw, bad kill options, et cetera. Maybe give dsmash a bit less startup, and make back air a lot stronger. Also, for a typical long-range character, thier recovery is absolute trash. The one that goes farthest has no hitbox, the one that goes far with a hitbox only hits below, so it still isn't safe, and while the cannon uppercut is safe and actually kills, it goes nowhere. Buff that recovery. Oh and neutral air's lag

 

[Deleted member]

Part 2 is done. The "Community overall wants buffs: little opposition. Now, since almost every character here is debate inducing PLEASE DON'T KILL ME. This is not final, just hypothetical. I can edit it later! Just opinions. Unknown characters really bite....

Thanks for the comment. Now, the throw thing with Puff has a lot of debate. Some say she should have D-Throw follow-ups and some say a universal Space Animal Slayer. Now, in my opinion, Jigglypuff shouldn't go off running around trying to D-Throw people like if she was or . Her grab range and running speed are both terrible, so she can't get grabs often. I see U-Throw-Rest as something that punishes the opponent for playing the match poorly/trump card hidden in the sleeve. Like jumping at Jigglypuff's shield and don't expect to get punished, and die at mid percents. Of course, the JP player can also look to U-Throw Rest people, but it shouldn't be the main focus like say, DK's Hoo-hah. And if Bair was really frikin strong like I listed, and with the improvement to Jigglypuff's Smash attacks, she shouldn't have trouble KOing to have a direct kill throw.

Very well done list, thanks for the mention in the regards to the Dedede changes.

Man I really wish these could happen... If only G&W could get some of his goods back. ;-;

 

[L9999]

Part 3 is coming up. "Community overall wants buffs: Sizable opposition." I did some revisions thanks to the feedback GanonMain and MarioMeteor gave. I'm struggling really hard with Little Mac, there is SO MUCH debate I cannot even process it with my brain. I would only be missing Marth and Robin, and I have Vipermoon64 as a guideline to get through Marth debate. Robin can't say, sometimes I forget he is in this game.

 

[MarioMeteor]

sometimes I forget he is in this game.

So, I'm not the only one that does that.

 

[L9999]

DONE! After 2 days I have finally succeded.

 

[Djmarcus44]

I feel like the character who needs buffs the most right now is probably gunner. They have no combo throw, bad kill options, et cetera. Maybe give dsmash a bit less startup, and make back air a lot stronger. Also, for a typical long-range character, thier recovery is absolute trash. The one that goes farthest has no hitbox, the one that goes far with a hitbox only hits below, so it still isn't safe, and while the cannon uppercut is safe and actually kills, it goes nowhere. Buff that recovery. Oh and neutral air's lag

Gunner has a true throw combo on fastfallers at low percents in up throw to up tilt that also puts an opponent in the perfect position to get juggled for a lot of damage. Also, Gunner can get follow ups that are hard to avoid on all of his/her throws (these follow ups are all listed in the mii gunner true combo and follow up thread). Gunner can even kill with up throw or Down throw to up air after a DI read. While Mii Gunner's grab game is not that great, there are quite a few characters who get less reward from throws.

While Mii Gunner's only kill confirm is not very reliable, Gunner has decently fast killing options. Up tilt comes out on frame 5 and kills around 135, and down tilt comes out on frame 8 and kills around 130. Down smash does not need to be faster since it comes out on frame 9 with good killing power for a smash attack. Gunner can also cancel his/her jab 1 or jab 2 into any smash, any tilt or charge blast in order to keep an opponent off balance and get kills.

While Lunar Launch isn't the safest recovery option, it still has good distance (It is actually the best of the three options in distance), and it is not the worst among long range characters (Duck Hunt's recovery is slower and easier to punish). Also, Gunner's neutral air and back air don't really need to be buffed since they sets up jab locks at low percents and tech chases. The lag on nair and bair don't need to change since they both autocancel in a shorthop.

 

[L9999]

Gunner has a true throw combo on fastfallers at low percents in up throw to up tilt that also puts an opponent in the perfect position to get juggled for a lot of damage. Also, Gunner can get follow ups that are hard to avoid on all of his/her throws (these follow ups are all listed in the mii gunner true combo and follow up thread). Gunner can even kill with up throw or Down throw to up air after a DI read. While Mii Gunner's grab game is not that great, there are quite a few characters who get less reward from throws.

While Mii Gunner's only kill confirm is not very reliable, Gunner has decently fast killing options. Up tilt comes out on frame 5 and kills around 135, and down tilt comes out on frame 8 and kills around 130. Down smash does not need to be faster since it comes out on frame 9 with good killing power for a smash attack. Gunner can also cancel his/her jab 1 or jab 2 into any smash, any tilt or charge blast in order to keep an opponent off balance and get kills.

While Lunar Launch isn't the safest recovery option, it still has good distance (It is actually the best of the three options in distance), and it is not the worst among long range characters (Duck Hunt's recovery is slower and easier to punish). Also, Gunner's neutral air and back air don't really need to be buffed since they sets up jab locks at low percents and tech chases. The lag on nair and bair don't need to change since they both autocancel in a shorthop.

Man, if you have arrived here sooner....Eh, whatever, we still need to take notes on , so I can edit the Committee's notes. Thanks for insight with Mii Gunner, no one talks about her in detail.

 

[Zerp]

Just a little reminder, the hiatus will be over tomorrow.

I also finally got around to fixing that broken spoiler today, it took a couple of loopholes to get around it and more time than I'd like to admit but now the OP doesn't have that ugly double spoiler anymore.

Also, L9999 , just wanted to say that list you made is really cool, seriously, nice work. Honestly, I'm beyond happy that it's a thing, so much effort went into it and it's pretty high quality for how much text you must have had to sift through. If you by any chance want it to be featured in the OP, I will not hesitate for even a second to add it, it's just so good, I love it.

 

[Deleted member]

Zerp

Are we going to do those proposed buffs/nerfs/various changes for cut veterans in the series like that one person brought up? (ex. )

 

[L9999]

Just a little reminder, the hiatus will be over tomorrow.

I also finally got around to fixing that broken spoiler today, it took a couple of loopholes to get around it and more time than I'd like to admit but now the OP doesn't have that ugly double spoiler anymore.

Also, L9999 , just wanted to say that list you made is really cool, seriously, nice work. Honestly, I'm beyond happy that it's a thing, so much effort went into it and it's pretty high quality for how much text you must have had to sift through. If you by any chance want it to be featured in the OP, I will not hesitate for even a second to add it, it's just so good, I love it.

Thanks a lot, I'm currently writting about the remaining 4 characters that are below E tier that weren't featured in the lists, and updating commentaries so the entire thing is more bearable to read, and it being in the OP would be a good start on what we what. Maybe one day they will listen. Haha.

 

[Zerp]

Zerp

Are we going to do those proposed buffs/nerfs/various changes for cut veterans in the series like that one person brought up? (ex. )

Yep, after we're done with the last characters.
()
I'll hold a poll once we're done with them, and depending on which side wins we'll move on to either the characters that haven't gone yet first or the cut veterans, and then the losing side afterwards.

Thanks a lot, I'm currently writting about the remaining 4 characters that are below E tier that weren't featured in the lists, and updating commentaries so the entire thing is more bearable to read, and it being in the OP would be a good start on what we what. Maybe one day they will listen. Haha.

Sorry to ask this, but, would you rather I add it to the OP now, and I add the updated version later on when your done with it, or only add it once your finished with the last 4 characters? Sorry but, I couldn't really tell which of those you'd prefer, and I'd really hate to do something you don't want.

 

[L9999]

I'm almost done with the updated list, just missing Wii Fit Trainer. I'll soon edit this post to upload the file, then you put it in the OP. Sounds good?

Zerp It's done.

Edit: Did some proofreading.

 

[Zerp]

I'm almost done with the updated list, just missing Wii Fit Trainer. I'll soon edit this post to upload the file, then you put it in the OP. Sounds good?

Zerp It's done.

Edit: Did some proofreading.

It's on the OP now.

 

[L9999]

Hello Committee, is me, the crazy guy who made the Committee notes. I can't believe the balancing notes are almost over! I will give my comments and gather popular opinion on the ever dreaded mid-tier (), and the miniscule high tier (). And yes, I know these 2 in particular spark a lot of controversy, I will explain it in my notes.

 

[Djmarcus44]

Man, if you have arrived here sooner....Eh, whatever, we still need to take notes on , so I can edit the Committee's notes. Thanks for insight with Mii Gunner, no one talks about her in detail.

No problem. I saw that you already got my ideas for the Mii Gunner changes.

 

[Zerp]

So yeah, we are back from hiatus now, and everything's back to normal, today we're discussing Toon Link.
Here's his poll right here --->http://goo.gl/forms/5zTWEXWtwt

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Toon Link is probably someone who doesn't need that many buffs. Maybe an air speed improvement, along with making some of his attacks less laggy.

 

[Deleted member]

Toon Link is fine as he is.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

Especially with his latest buffs, really doesn't need much. Maybe a combo throw...maybe? Not like he needs it, I personally think he's borderline high tier and fine as he is.

Voting for .

 

[L9999]

I think Toon Link is solid, but a couple changes wouldn't hurt.

1. That grab needs improvements. Going Lucas route and making it less laggy. The range is kinda bad for how slow it is. A working combo throw is icing on the cake.

2. Un-nerfing his Up B distance from Brawl. His recovery was trash already, why make it worse? With that air mobility any decent edgeguarder can gimp TL easily.

3. Anything about that frame data. Toon Link has the WFT syndrome. His lag is too bad for having mediocre range. At the very least a decrease in start up to Side Tilt and Down Tilt. This moves are sluggish, tiny, and don't combo. Making them faster wouldn't change much since TL doesn't favor close combat, but they would be nice for burst options instead of doing nothing.

As always, just an opinion.

I guess I vote for the next discussion. I need insight for the Committee notes.

 

[Yoshister]

Toon Link's pretty solid in my opinion, though I wouldn't mind a recovery buff.
His recovery really isn't that good. :/

 

[Zerp]

I think Toon Link is perfectly viable as of now, honestly, he's as balanced as they get imo, I see no reason to change him.
Anyways, here's Toon Link's results https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1Y4mNbhJWCQPlvH5Mbl58w-XC-0QfE4DWchH13BX_EHs/viewanalytics
And here's Cloud's poll for today http://goo.gl/forms/fcmOS67NqT

 

[FamilyTeam]

Cloud doesn't need anything.
Take away anything from him and you get a low tier, but give him anything on top of what he has now and he'll be broken.

 

[Deleted member]

Cloud is also as fine as he is. Anyone who says he's broken or OP needs to learn the MU and git gud.

 

[FamilyTeam]

Cloud is also as fine as he is. Anyone who says he's broken or OP needs to learn the MU and git gud.

If you breathe on him while he is recovering, he won't make it.
I get the feeling people haven't been exploiting his recovery enough.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Cloud seems fine the way he is, though having a recovery that's poor without Limit Break can be rather painful whenever you're dealing with edge-guarders. Once you've used the Limit Break boosted Climhazzard, you "have" to grab a ledge or land safely; if you get edge-guarded after using the Limit Break boosted Climhazzard, then you have no hope of avoiding the TKO.

 

[Bowserboy3]

If you breathe on him while he is recovering, he won't make it.
I get the feeling people haven't been exploiting his recovery enough.

This is part of the reason why I believe that the Marth v Cloud matchup is at least even. Cloud might have in general slightly more range than Marth and better juggle ability, Marth can still juggle him and combo him well, but Marth just eats his recovery. Marth is great off stage, and one Fair can either seal the stock or put Cloud in a precarious position. Cloud has no answer to Marth's Counter when recovering. Marth can counter it and steal the stock, or if the Cloud makes a bad recovery attempt and fails to sweetspot the ledge, Marth can do some Melee style counter edgeguards.

I also only just found out the other day that Marth's Up Smash is one of the only safe moves that out ranges Cloud's Dair, so that can screw his landings up... but regardless, this isn't a Marth v Cloud matchup thread, so...

I believe Cloud is fine as is too. My Marth v Cloud paragraph above proves that there are at least characters that can stand up to him/counter him (and believe me, there are better counters to him), and people moaning otherwise need to quite literally, git gud. He has a solid juggle game, great reach and power, but get's combo'd himself (even more so under limit), and his recovery is heavily exploitable. I'll be honest, I think he is pretty balanced, seeing as he has lots of powerful traits, but a very exploitable trait too.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

While I'm thinking about it, I vote for Corrin for tomorrow's discussion.



There are some things that I'd like to bring up for him.

 

[Furret24]

Cloud is high tier, lol.

I vote for...wait, who can we choose from again?

 

[Zerp]

I think Cloud's also perfectly viable, I wouldn't change anything about him, honestly, if he got buffed I think he'd be at risk of ending up broken.

While I'm thinking about it, I vote for Corrin for tomorrow's discussion.



There are some things that I'd like to bring up for him.

I hate doing this, but, you can't vote for Corrin right now, sorry. He, Bayonetta and everyone else we didn't vote on yet will be eligible after we get through these guys ---> (). Sorry.

Cloud is high tier, lol.

I vote for...wait, who can we choose from again?

These guys
()

 

[Deleted member]

()

Literally the Miis, Link, Lucas and Shulk are the only characters worth talking about there. The rest are perfectly viable characters.