The Unofficial Super Smash Bros Balancing Committee- Anything and everything!

Zerp · Dec 16, 2015

Welcome to the unofficial SSB balancing committee!

I bet your wondering what this thread's about, eh? Well maybe not, since it's implied in the title what it is but I'm going to explain it anyway

. This thread is intended to act as a committee where numerous mains of different characters cooperate and voice their opinions on how they think characters should be balanced, and maybe, just maybe, get some characters in need noticed by Nintendo eventually so our dreams can come true.

Here's how it works:

Until Dec 19, we'll just be discussing what characters you think should be buffed or nerfed, I want to give this patch at least a little time to get figured out.

After Dec.19, we'll start making lists of every character you believe to be upper-mid tier and below. Now, since it's obviously debatable what's upper-mid tier and below, you are allowed to add any character to your list you feel is classified as upper-mid or below tier character, but, the 20 characters that are voted the least amount of times will not be included in the results since it's generally agreed upon that the top 20 really don't need any buffs.

As of Dec. 27th,
You'll vote with a O to signify you feel they should be buffed, a - to signify you believe there should be no change, and in extreme cases, a X to signify you feel the character should be nerfed. For example, let's say King Dedede wanted to vote, and selfishly, he only wants buffs for himself, because duh, he's perfect, and, he wants to nerf Kirby, his vote would look like this:

Dedede said:
--O------- --- ------ X--------------- -

Note: You don't have to add any color, I'd like it if you do because it looks better aesthetically but if you don't want to, there's no pressure too.

Results of Week 1:

OOOOOOOO--

OOOOOOOOO

OOOOOOOO-

-O-O-----

OOOO-OO-O

OOOOOOOOO

OOOOOOO-O

OOOO-O--O

OOO--OOOO

OOOOOOOO

OOOOOOOOO

OO-OOO--

OOO-OOOO

OOO--OOO

OOO-OOOOO

OOOOOOOOO

-O-OOO--O

OOOOOO--O

-OO-OO--O

OOO--OX-O

-O-----OO

-O-OOOO-O

-OOO--O-O

-OOO-OOO

-O---O---

-O-O--O--

----OO-O

----OOO-O

-O----O-

-O-------

-OXO-----

---O-----

-----X--O

----X---

------X---
Community overall wants buffs, without opposition:

Community overall wants buffs, with little opposition:

Community overall wants buffs, with sizable opposition:

Now since the results for our first period are over, we're going to be rating each character individually, one character per day.

Bottom Tier: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1A4HJgj1lJTxoZNc_uoI0KW5PGs9JuMxlJgYDaBu7qoA/viewanalytics
Low Tier: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1X8Vu1CtRgUnrlI4n0Q8yD7lIaP0l6S9gv9Jnyr327gQ/viewanalytics
Low-Mid Tier: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1Vdetb7zXYjV2vzEsxYThc_ENNDU2ubUrPL2MeRQszSw/viewanalytics
Middle Tier: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1lRwoFtsF1w8J6zs4KdPQwgydlMZkfNthgfq94oT8NmA/viewanalytics
High-Mid Tier: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1xiFTYut6npmpd_Uhtxw1nkqNqi0IPPMl_ybhefSG60A/viewanalytics
High Tier: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1...GEN3elI9C8TOc4PIBFpOsmIQsvo6DIQ/viewanalytics
Top Tier: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1U5uwOgLFTNnFyWX0vJMs97yEXU6Kg2c7WTYB1ybJa-0/viewanalytics

C Tier: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1...W6FEegDbZgrjTZxZ_7U7inbJf4Z3kjg/viewanalytics
B- Tier: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1...0i0Y_7SPB8jzSbavXwcwDjrWWSoL_Lg/viewanalytics
B Tier:
https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1...Pj86m70PgsI8duRYs6yNo-Ua9Yg5OyA/viewanalytics
B+ Tier: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1...Fpz6-CsQb6r4_sSm5kX08b2yGK_S9vQ/viewanalytics
A- Tier: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1...XILj3b71rmDXOn8UFribDCjYswLeOug/viewanalytics
A+ Tier: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1...cYGWwqSIb7CUJ1_5E-Y9sSJkNT844FQ/viewanalytics
S Tier: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1...jooJaZKH-Gg6YtWgHmwr6G-R8Fzt_0w/viewanalytics

C Tier: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1...Bka409nv6CwqdaSYNl65UJ0VA9huNkQ/viewanalytics
B- Tier: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1...ztnj2vtI28VdNA9vah4TupbgakPIthw/viewanalytics
B Tier: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1...ubljp_NpgP7dba7MRYeWVUT5cyIFgRg/viewanalytics
B+ Tier: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1...ZS8iZBOPlRmFeH-VG0HSGr5O6l2KQTg/viewanalytics
A- Tier: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1...1zz4eFewXZvZ51zujRWk46iUqRZMVZg/viewanalytics
A+ Tier: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1...1-o1esDNrbI1tfT4QPvIfuMx-DqJAdA/viewanalytics
S Tier: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1...ajXhmKFphS8kvHHqNxtbry3lJgm3hrg/viewanalytics

Feel free to discuss any characters, stages or any other balance related thingies you want!

No Flaming- There is a fine line between healthy debate and just flat out attacking and/or insulting someone, and I'm fairly certain you know what it is, so please do us all a favor and not flame anyone. Seriously, just don't be a jerk, it isn't that hard. Also, I think I should point out that my idea of what counts as "insulting" is a lot less lenient than most of the mods, I think anything that directly disrespects anyone else is insulting, just because others will let it fly doesn't mean I will, so please try to at least respect everyone else in the thread, at least while posting in here. Thanks.
"Don't reply to this post" or "Don't quote me on this" posts- While your always welcome to post your thoughts, healthy debate is encouraged here, and this kind of post directly shuts down debate. You don't have to reply to any criticism, but you cannot just simply shut down any opposition, if your opinion is questionable, then well, it's questionable and people do have the right to point it out. However, if you are going to point out something you find questionable, please do so as gently as possible and don't be a jerk about it. (notice a recurring theme?)
Making posts inflammatory for no reason- I'd prefer you don't, but if you really, really, really have to make a post that's somewhat inflammatory, please make sure you say it as kindly as possible, and make sure you have a very good reason for it.
And lastly, don't be a jerk. - Just don't be rude to other people and your set.
Anyways, have fun discussing what balance changes you'd all like to see for the next patch.

And lastly,

L9999 made some wonderful PDF files that're attached to this post, they are a compilation of suggested changes and opinions on the cast, both are very well made and pretty interesting (albeit, the 4.1 is a bit outdated), I recommend you all give it a read!

GreenMonkey · Dec 16, 2015

Oh god I'm making the first post. Since I don't know much about precise frame-data, my suggestions won't reference or include anything specific.

/

(The Amnesic Tactician):

Increase dash speed. The game explains the reason for Robin's slow ground speed is that it is a balance to his/her powerful magic, but Robin already has enough faults as is.
No free fall after Nosferatu. Nos is a great option for coming down on top of shielding opponents or ambushing shielding opponents on platforms, but it would be great if it can also be used on shielding opponents near the ledge, too.
Greater/faster grab range. Robin's grab is a short clap at the air in front of him/her and lacks both range and speed. Just improving the grab, even if it's only by the slightest amount, would be a well-appreciated buff.
Higher knockback on Back Throw. Robin doesn't have a kill throw, and improving his/her Back Throw would help Robins get the kill much easier. Not asking for the power of Ness' B-Throw, but just slightly more knockback.

(The Princess in the Game That I've Never Played):

No free fall after Din's Fire. Din's Fire could be used to snipe opponents while offstage, but using it is dangerous because it puts Zelda into a helpless state. Removing the free fall would make Din's Fire less risky to use.
Improve horizontal movement after Farore's Wind. It's not anything huge, but it would always be frustrating when I accidentally Up-B straight up and miss the ledge by a few inches but couldn't move to the side enough.
Make Fair/Bair short hop auto-cancel. Again, just something personal that I would love. It would be amazing if Zelda can just throw out short hop Lightning Kick and not suffer horrendous lag.

(The Cooler Puff):

Remove insta-KO when shield breaks. I've no idea why this was added in the game, but it just seems illogical and unfair towards Jiggs.

(The Gimp-phobe):

Increase Up-B distance. Little Mac may be a powerhouse on the ground, but he stands very little chance against good edgeguarders offstage. Just a little bit more Up-B distance would benefit his recovery a lot.
Remove super armor from smashes. A skillful Little Mac could charge an Up-Smash and catch landings without caring about the possibility of getting hit from above. Only Mac has super armor on smashes and it's too powerful.
Higher end-lag on dash attack. Another personal suggestion. Little Mac's can easily dash attack into jabs/F-tilt without being punished because the sheer speed of dash attack. It'd be great if it was just a bit more laggy.

GamerTimeUS · Dec 17, 2015

GreenMonkey said:
Oh god I'm making the first post. Since I don't know much about precise frame-data, my suggestions won't reference or include anything specific.
(The Cooler Puff):

Remove insta-KO when shield breaks. I've no idea why this was added in the game, but it just seems illogical and unfair towards Jiggs.

I believe its been in the game since Melee.

Deleted member · Dec 17, 2015

Absolute Perfection

Forward air and back air's animations match the hitboxes. This alone would be a huge buff for Dedede.
Make neutral air and forward air autocancel out of a shorthop, decrease their landing lag. One of Dedede's biggest issues is that barely any of his aerials are safe except properly spaced bairs thanks to their horrendous landing lag. Forward air's lack of KO power onstage is also something that needs to be addressed.
Make the startup on down air not disgusting and increase the sweetspot size.
Forward and back throws can now kill from 120-130% center stage, forward throw sends at a semi-spike angle.
Decrease the startup and ending lag on Inhale. This would do Dedede so many favors and actually make the move more usable as a mixup. No other command grab in this game is as laggy as Dedede's inhale right now. got a buff to his, Dedede's should too.
Jet Hammer now has super armor frames at full charge, and takes less time to charge up. got super armor added to his Reverse Warlock Punch, why not?
Increase the damage relefection threshold for Gordos from 2% to either the range of 3-6%. This would immensely help Dedede in some matchups, and actually force opponents to use a stronger move to reflect Gordos back and not just do the first hit of a jab. It'd also give him a tool against characters who can just camp him out.

Wintropy · Dec 17, 2015

GreenMonkey said:
Remove super armor from smashes. A skillful Little Mac could charge an Up-Smash and catch landings without caring about the possibility of getting hit from above. Only Mac has super armor on smashes and it's too powerful.

Higher end-lag on dash attack. Another personal suggestion. Little Mac's can easily dash attack into jabs/F-tilt without being punished because the sheer speed of dash attack. It'd be great if it was just a bit more laggy.

I don't think these are good ideas, to be honest. I'm with you on the increased up-b distance, but I think these two changes would nerf him hard and change the nature of his character unnecessarily and detrimentally. You have to bear in mind that Mac has no off-stage game and no reliable way of making it back to the stage if he's launched at an even slightly unfavourable angle. The armoured smashes exist so he isn't just challenged or traded with in his own element, and it encourages players to optimise his playstyle with a mixture of offense and defense: with the threat of the opponent's hit being armoured through and punished, it forces them to respect Mac's grounded options and make for a more dynamic game. Removing that without compensating massively in other another respect would be a huge nerf to him and I don't think that's warranted.

Dash attack doesn't need to be nerfed either, it's one of his staple grounded options. It's not even safe on shield, you canm just grab him out of it and punish if needs be. I honestly don't think Mac needs any significant nerfs. He may dominate in low-level play, but at high-level play, his gameplan isn't very sustainable and he needs some kind of benefit considering he dies about half as early as the rest of the cast.

Feelicks said:
Increase the damage relefection threshold for Gordos from 2% to either the range of 3-6%. This would immensely help Dedede in some matchups, and actually force opponents to use a stronger move to reflect Gordos back and not just do the first hit of a jab. It'd also give him a tool against characters who can just camp him out.

I think everything else is fine (bit iffy on f-throw and b-throw being kill throws, but I guess he needs something that functions as a reliable kill move), but I think a Gordo buff needs to be handled very carefully. 2% is definitely too weak, the vast majority of characters have a convenient response to nullify its existence, but 5-6% is definitely too much. You risk invalidating weaker characters and making Dedede more of a threat than he already is in other game modes (FFAs, online with lag, etc). I think a 3-4% is reasonable and doesn't tread too far towards either extreme.

Bear in mind I'm just playing devil's advocate here.

Deleted member · Dec 17, 2015

Wintropy said:
I think everything else is fine (bit iffy on f-throw and b-throw being kill throws, but I guess he needs something that functions as a reliable kill move), but I think a Gordo buff needs to be handled very carefully. 2% is definitely too weak, the vast majority of characters have a convenient response to nullify its existence, but 5-6% is definitely too much. You risk invalidating weaker characters and making Dedede more of a threat than he already is in other game modes (FFAs, online with lag, etc). I think a 3-4% is reasonable and doesn't tread too far towards either extreme.

Bear in mind I'm just playing devil's advocate here.

Both bthrow and fthrow were kill moves in Brawl, so it'd make sense for them to function to same way. Him along with

are the only superheavies that lack solid kill throws. It'd definitely help as well considering Dedede has a hell of a lot of trouble netting a kill in the first place, he has no kill confirms whatsoever.

I see your point about Gordos through, 3-4% would be more realistic and be more fair. It's just really frustrating for a Gordo to be hit by something like a random

blaster beam.

Mr.Seven · Dec 17, 2015

GreenMonkey said:
Oh god I'm making the first post. Since I don't know much about precise frame-data, my suggestions won't reference or include anything specific.

/ (The Amnesic Tactician):

Increase dash speed. The game explains the reason for Robin's slow ground speed is that it is a balance to his/her powerful magic, but Robin already has enough faults as is.

No free fall after Nosferatu. Nos is a great option for coming down on top of shielding opponents or ambushing shielding opponents on platforms, but it would be great if it can also be used on shielding opponents near the ledge, too.

Greater/faster grab range. Robin's grab is a short clap at the air in front of him/her and lacks both range and speed. Just improving the grab, even if it's only by the slightest amount, would be a well-appreciated buff.

Higher knockback on Back Throw. Robin doesn't have a kill throw, and improving his/her Back Throw would help Robins get the kill much easier. Not asking for the power of Ness' B-Throw, but just slightly more knockback.

I only recently found out that an aerial Nosferatu sends him into a freefall. I found that out the hard way. I agree with that. The helpless state needs to be removed.

His grab range is an absolute joke, and I think it's the shortest in the game. It needs to be fixed. Again, I agree.

GreenMonkey said:
(The Cooler Puff):

Remove insta-KO when shield breaks. I've no idea why this was added in the game, but it just seems illogical and unfair towards Jiggs.

Well, Jiggs was initially added as a joke character back in 64, and has been there since. But by now, Jigglypuff is a very reliable air fighter... Pretty much the reverse-Mac. And I agree that insta-death on shield-break is super unfair.

GreenMonkey said:
(The Gimp-phobe):

Increase Up-B distance. Little Mac may be a powerhouse on the ground, but he stands very little chance against good edgeguarders offstage. Just a little bit more Up-B distance would benefit his recovery a lot.

Remove super armor from smashes. A skillful Little Mac could charge an Up-Smash and catch landings without caring about the possibility of getting hit from above. Only Mac has super armor on smashes and it's too powerful.

Higher end-lag on dash attack. Another personal suggestion. Little Mac's can easily dash attack into jabs/F-tilt without being punished because the sheer speed of dash attack. It'd be great if it was just a bit more laggy.

As a Mac main, I'm all for increased up-b distance, and would also love to see the 10% distance that was removed from Mac's Air Side-B back in the early patches of Smash 4.

Removing Mac's Super Armor WILL turn him into an absolute joke. The whole point of countering Mac is to gimp him off stage, since that is incredibly easy to do. The super armor gives him a chance against powerhouses like Ganondorf or Bowser, as due to Mac's weight and abysmal air game, he can get KO'd at low percentages. With a character like Mario, it's even possible to gimp a Mac that is at 0% damage.

The dash attack is super unsafe on block. Super easy to punish.

As for my suggestions:

(The PSI-Spammer)

Ness's PK Fire needs more lag. Way too many times have I seen this. Ness's PK Fire is hands-down, the most spammable move in the game. Before his first PK Fire ends, he's already fired another one at you. One time, I was in a With Anyone FG 2v2, and my Ness teammate fired FOUR IN A ROW without the opponent even having a chance to counter or do anything. I'm baffled as to how and why this was never fixed. It's not a combo, it's spamming.
Ness's PK Thunder Launch needs less knockback. This move can kill medium-weight characters at early percentages. I'd expect that from a Warlock Punch, not a PK Thunder. I'm fine with the damage output, but the knockback from it is almost unacceptable.

FamilyTeam · Dec 17, 2015

GamerTimeUS said:
I believe its been in the game since Melee.

Hasn't this been a thing since 64, actually?

n8han11 · Dec 17, 2015

GreenMonkey said:
(The Cooler Puff):

Remove insta-KO when shield breaks. I've no idea why this was added in the game, but it just seems illogical and unfair towards Jiggs.

To be fair, that's exactly what happens when you pop a balloon.

Nammy12 · Dec 17, 2015

ITT: people who don't know how to balance.

I'll play along though.

less endlag on smashes
faster jab, fair, bair
bthrow, dthrow kill earlier
vision kills earlier
buff smash art
buff shield art
auto cancels all his aerials from a short hop.
more range than corrin

Am I doing it right?

ps. Sakurai is never going to look at this thread.

GreenMonkey · Dec 17, 2015

Tbh I just really hate Mac so apologies for suggesting extreme nerfs heehee.

But personal bias aside I believe that the majority of the changes I suggested for

/

and

are pretty reasonable.

While

's weird shield mechanic might have been here since 64, it's still unfair and unnecessary. Some people already think that Puff's cons outweigh its pros, so I don't believe that Puff needs to have such a flaw. No other character has it (not even Kirby or DDD, who are essential balloons, too), so I think we should that mechanic should be removed.

Mr.Seven said:
(The PSI-Spammer)

Mr.Seven said:
Ness's PK Fire needs more lag. Way too many times have I seen this. Ness's PK Fire is hands-down, the most spammable move in the game. Before his first PK Fire ends, he's already fired another one at you. One time, I was in a With Anyone FG 2v2, and my Ness teammate fired FOUR IN A ROW without the opponent even having a chance to counter or do anything. I'm baffled as to how and why this was never fixed. It's not a combo, it's spamming.

Agreed. I think that PK Fire should either have more startup or more endlag. No one wants or needs to deal with spam.
Also Ness' sound files need to be made waaaaaay quieter. If you even poke the child he'll scream "WAAAAAAH!"

Feelicks said:
Absolute Perfection

Feelicks said:
Make the startup on down air not disgusting and increase the sweetspot size.

The startup is indeed horrid and making it faster would definitely be a much-appreciated improvement. However, I think the sweetspot is fine as it is. DDD is already extremely powerful and even if a D-air doesn't hit with the spike hitbox, it'll send the opponent flying across the screen.

TJTheRager · Dec 17, 2015

Nammy12 said:
ITT: people who don't know how to balance.

I'll play along though.

less endlag on smashes
faster jab, fair, bair
bthrow, dthrow kill earlier
vision kills earlier
buff smash art
buff shield art
auto cancels all his aerials from a short hop.
more range than corrin

Am I doing it right?

ps. Sakurai is never going to look at this thread.

I've played against many Shulk specialists and I can tell you since he currently has the longest range in the game, it can be VERY hard to approach him alot of times... Don't get me wrong, I respect every Shulk player, but the man is a literal walking and talking RPG lol. He has tools for many situations using his arts... I do agree with you on a few of your points. I just feel like his arts and not his actual base character should be altered (too much). We can definitely discuss more if you'd like. If vision kills earlier, then it better have THEE longest cooldown ever lol

I'll post my own personal opinion about Shulk in detail soon.

TJTheRager · Dec 17, 2015

In the meantime, lets talk about Samus though....

What I want buffed:

-Her freaking, consistency on her up smash and forward air... They just either don't connect, or connect in the WEIRDEST places.
-Clearly her neutral air...It doesn't necessarily have to go back to the melee version, but just simply make it faster or give her a middle-ish hitbox?
-Either reduce the time it takes for her to fire her super missile, or greatly reduce the cooldown. Her handheld counterparts can fire like 10 missiles in the time it takes Smash 4 Samus to fire 1 :l
-Arm cannon/charge shot: let us be able to fire rapid "little" shots like she does in other Metroid games (such as Prime), but make them like Fox's lasers or Bayonetta's gun shots so that they don't knock you back. Also, love was given to Ryu....why can't Samus control the speed of her fully charged shots for some mix ups? Of course damage may vary depending on the speed fired.
-Btw, why does it only seem like her zair only hits tall characters? If that's gonna be the case....either improve its knockback or damage since we need to be nearly frame perfect to hit shorter characters -.-
-For thee love of God...morph ball bombs shouldn't "force" you back into the morph ball form when you're standing or crouching on stage near it XD Why this wouldn't be a problem: anyone can clearly see the bomb being deployed, so it's avoidable so I don't see why it can't be sort of used as an approach tool.

FamilyTeam · Dec 17, 2015

I have this idea. I'm not exactly sure if it would work in practice.

We could try to "declone"

and

a bit, and buff them a bit to make them more useful.

Buffs for both of them:
- I'm sure extending the reach on their sword just a tiny bit (like adding 5-10 centimetres) would make them far more usable.
- Making their

have more horizontal push would make their recoveries better without hurting their balance much.

Buffs for :
- Make her run slightly faster than Marth,
- Make her grab range a bit longer and the animation itself faster,
- Make her dash attack, Side Smash and Up Smash have less ending lag,
- Make all of her Smashes deal a bit more shield damage than normal,
- Make her

faster, with more hitsun and far more knockback on the last hit, but nerf its damage slightly to compensate for it,
- Do the opposite with her Side Smash: nerf the knockback very slightly, but raise the damage,
- Make her neutral

faster (but not to the point that it's spammable), but nerf its damage slightly,

Buffs for :
- Make him slightly heavier than Lucina (something like 93, 94) or make Lucina lighter (like 88),
- Give him better air mobility when compared to Lucina,
- Make him jump slightly higher than her,
- Make his Down Air spike for more frames (Just don't make it like Melee's, please),
- Make all of his aerials have less lag in general (enough for 2 Fairs from a shorthop, for example) and slightly more damage,
- Make all of his aerial moves have far less landing lag,
- If possible, make it far easier to get the tip with aerials than with ground attacks.

Well, I think you guys see what I atleast tried to do. Make Lucina more of a character that fights on the ground with offensive grabs and Smashes that's very unsafe to use shield against, and make Marth a character that relies more on aerials. Atleast, this idea sounds good in my head, I have no idea if it would be good in practice.

GreenMonkey · Dec 17, 2015

FamilyTeam said:
I have this idea. I'm not exactly sure if it would work in practice.

We could try to "declone" and a bit, and buff them a bit to make them more useful.

Buffs for both of them:
- I'm sure extending the reach on their sword just a tiny bit (like adding 5-10 centimetres) would make them far more usable.
- Making their have more horizontal push would make their recoveries better without hurting their balance much.

Buffs for :
- Make her run slightly faster than Marth,
- Make her grab range a bit longer and the animation itself faster,
- Make her dash attack, Side Smash and Up Smash have less ending lag,
- Make all of her Smashes deal a bit more shield damage than normal,
- Make her faster, with more hitsun and far more knockback on the last hit, but nerf its damage slightly to compensate for it,
- Do the opposite with her Side Smash: nerf the knockback very slightly, but raise the damage,
- Make her neutral faster (but not to the point that it's spammable), but nerf its damage slightly,

Buffs for :
- Make him slightly heavier than Lucina (something like 93, 94) or make Lucina lighter (like 88),
- Give him better air mobility when compared to Lucina,
- Make him jump slightly higher than her,
- Make his Down Air spike for more frames (Just don't make it like Melee's, please),
- Make all of his aerials have less lag in general (enough for 2 Fairs from a shorthop, for example) and slightly more damage,
- Make all of his aerial moves have far less landing lag,
- If possible, make it far easier to get the tip with aerials than with ground attacks.

Well, I think you guys see what I atleast tried to do. Make Lucina more of a character that fights on the ground with offensive grabs and Smashes that's very unsafe to use shield against, and make Marth a character that relies more on aerials. Atleast, this idea sounds good in my head, I have no idea if it would be good in practice.

Brilliant! The idea is nice, although personally I want Lucy to be the more air-centric fighter, since Marth is famous for his F-Smash tippers and it would make sense for him to be better on the ground.

To add on to your idea, I also propose changing Lucy's specials and customs so there would be even less overlap between the two. Although this is a bit of a self-promotion, I have a list of ideas for Lucy's specials in another thread.

FamilyTeam · Dec 17, 2015

GreenMonkey said:
Brilliant! The idea is nice, although personally I want Lucy to be the more air-centric fighter, since Marth is famous for his F-Smash tippers and it would make sense for him to be better on the ground.

To add on to your idea, I also propose changing Lucy's specials and customs so there would be even less overlap between the two. Although this is a bit of a self-promotion, I have a list of ideas for Lucy's specials in another thread.

Cool! The reason I made Lucina better on the ground is because, yeah, Marth has the well-known tippered Side-Smash, but he also has Ken combos, doesn't he?

GreenMonkey · Dec 17, 2015

FamilyTeam said:
Cool! The reason I made Lucina better on the ground is because, yeah, Marth has the well-known tippered Side-Smash, but he also has Ken combos, doesn't he?

Ooh aerial shenanigans. I've never heard or seen these before, but they do very useful for Marth. Do these still work in Smash 4 and can Lucy pull them off as well?

Bowserboy3 · Dec 18, 2015

If I was to add balance changes, I would want to see a couple of changes to Marth and Samus. I would change...

Changes

For a start, fix some of the problems with his moveset. Up Tilt needs to follow the sword trail more reliably, and Dancing Blade side 2 needs to actually hit opponents consistently, and not clip underneath them. I would also change the angle of Down 3 angle from 44° (in patch 1.1.3) back to 20° (every version before 1.1.3). Though the 44° angle isn't bad (in fact, it allows you at certain percents to get tipper side 4), it's just a personal thing as I prefer being able to link into Down 4 for longer. Alternatively, they could just make Down 3 spike again like in Brawl, but it should be a very weak spike, so even if it is landed at the edge of the stage, it cannot finish stocks. Lucina should get these changes too. Up Air also needs a slightly bigger tipper hitbox, as it is very small.

A couple of his moves deserve a tiny bit more damage. Up Tilt could do with a 1% buff, making it 6% arm, 7% sword, and 10% tipper. At least then it would match with the 7% sword and 10% tipper of Dtilt. Besides, it's tough to land the tipper on Up Tilt, so having a reliable 6% or 7% would be nicer. I also don't know why Down Tilt's sour was lowered by 1%. Please make it back to 8%.I would also like to see Forward Air with a 1% damage buff. It deals the least amount of damage of his aerials. Counting in move staling, and often times you will only be doing 8% for a tipper. Make it 8% sour and 11% tip please. In regards to Lucina, I could see her moves getting a 0.5% increase too so she doesn't get outclassed.

Speaking of Forward Air, it needs some sort of buff. Now I know Sakurai and co are trying to make it balanced, so I won't say give it everything it used to have back. To make it nerfed from Brawl but still good and balanced in Smash 4, I think it needs one of these two options; a) IASA frames near the end of the move to allow another attack. This alone would make the move good because you could get more more follow up options, but all of his aerials would still be laggier than Brawl. b) If that option is ignored, it needs better auto cancel windows. This way, you can do a Forward Air, and if you want to end it sooner, fast fall as you are coming down to auto cancel it. It's autocancel frame is currently any frame on or after 36. Changing this to at least frame 30 would make the move safer, but not abusable. It would mean you can safely poke or fade out with no lag, putting out Forward Aerials quicker and easier than now, but less quick than Double Fair in Brawl. Forward Air also need less landing lag. It currently has 16 frames of landing lag. Either 14 frames, 12 frames or 9 frames. Lucina would also get these changes.
Forward Smash needs an altered animation to give it more range like in Brawl. I don't even know what Marth is doing in his current animation. Try replicating it. IT HURTS. Then try replicating the Brawl one. Much nicer. But in all seriousness, the altered animation would give it slightly more range. Again, Lucina would get this change.
Finally, he needs better options from Throws. I am not being greedy and asking for pre patch Luigi kill confirms or pre patch Diddy combo strings, no. I just want him to get reward off his grabs until about 40% or something. Half the knockback on his Down and Forward throws to give him follow ups for longer and reduce the knockback growth by 5 points or something. As normal, Lucina would get this change too.

That is honestly all I feel Marth needs. I could go on about saying he needs a better more active spike, or less lag on all of his aerials and most of his ground moves, or a few frames less start up on a few moves, but that is just nit picky. What I have mentioned is what I strongly believe Marth NEEDS to be able to compete at a high level.

Changes

Only a couple of her moves need reliability checks. Dash Attack needs to come out a couple of frames earlier (from frame 10 to frame 8 like Brawl please), as this will allow it to hit more reliably. Jab has no excuse not to link other than Sakurai being an ass. For compensation of it linking, the 2nd hit should come down from 8% to 6%. Up Smash could do with a launching hit like Marth or Mewtwo. To compensate, it should kill about 5% later.
Forward Tilt needs that horrible sourspot from 1.0.6 removing. Why was this even necessary?
Forward Smash's sourspot needs to reach all the way down her arm to her body to stop it missing at extremely close range (even though Down Tilt is safer at close range), and the sweetspot needs to be bigger to cover the explosion.
Down Smash needs to kill earlier. It is currently the weakest Down Smash. I have no problem with that, but it is far and away the weakest. It KO's at 180%. Please make it 150% at least.

Forward Air needs less landing lag seeing as it cannot auto cancel any more. 18 frames like Bair would be nice. I mean, it doesn't kill like Bair, so even less would be nice, but all I ask for is at least 18 frames. And for those saying it doesn't link, have you even used it? It uses the Auto Link angle, it links perfectly fine.
Reduce the cooldown on all her grabs by 5 frames or so.
Speed up her Roll by 5 frames. This way, it would still be the slowest, but not the complete worst.
A Down Throw angle change from 80° to about 84° would make away DI less effective, giving her a better combo throw.
A change to either Forward Throw or Back Throw (both 60BKB, 55KBG) to allow one to have potential to kill at a realistic percent would be nice. Both of these do not kill until about 200%. Even allowing one of them to kill at around 150% would be nice. Increase the knockback on one (preferably Forward Throw) to something like 65BKB/65KBG would allow it to kill a bit sooner. It is just nice to have a last resort option.
Perhaps change the angle to 40° to match Back Throw too.
Missiles need a change. A few frames less ending lag would be nice. At least 3, maybe 5. Though you would still be restricted to 2 missiles and 1 super on screen at a time, it would give Samus more time to react if the opponent shields them. Super Missiles could also do with a knockback change to let them have more chance of killing. Increasing the BKB and KBG from 50/65 to 60/70 and changing the launch angle from 65° to 45° would allow them to have more offensive potential, but still not be overpowered.

As with Marth, this is all I feel Samus NEEDS. Of course I could go on and ask for things like auto cancel missiles, Down Tilt more powerful, old Nair etc but they aren't needed.

I'd also like to see a few changes for

, but seeing as they aren't as extensive as my changes for Marth and Samus, I will say them here. Weight up to at least 80 units, Teleport reduced landing lag, and Down Throw more hitstun and a few frames less ending lag for better follow ups.

L9999 · Dec 18, 2015

Mr.Seven said:
As for my suggestions:

(The PSI-Spammer)

Ness's PK Fire needs more lag. Way too many times have I seen this. Ness's PK Fire is hands-down, the most spammable move in the game. Before his first PK Fire ends, he's already fired another one at you. One time, I was in a With Anyone FG 2v2, and my Ness teammate fired FOUR IN A ROW without the opponent even having a chance to counter or do anything. I'm baffled as to how and why this was never fixed. It's not a combo, it's spamming.

Ness's PK Thunder Launch needs less knockback. This move can kill medium-weight characters at early percentages. I'd expect that from a Warlock Punch, not a PK Thunder. I'm fine with the damage output, but the knockback from it is almost unacceptable.

PK Fire is atrociously laggy, It's predictable and has abysmal startup. The moment he starts it, SHIELD. It's not like he can move afterwards because the endlag is abysmal as well. After shielding punish it. If you Get hit, DI upwards, jump, roll, JAB, there are.many options. And PK Thunder is powerful because it is an abysmal recovery. Just throw yourself out, get hit and tech the wall, Ness dies. There is a reason top Ness players don't use PK Fire very much. It's because it kinda sucks.

FamilyTeam · Dec 18, 2015

GreenMonkey said:
Ooh aerial shenanigans. I've never heard or seen these before, but they do very useful for Marth. Do these still work in Smash 4 and can Lucy pull them off as well?

I think he can, actually, it's just not as effective and far harder to do.

Furret24 · Dec 18, 2015

Not sure what this thread is trying to accomplish, but I'll bite.

(Taken from a different thread)
- Jab connects into infinite faster.
- Remove that stupid sourspot on ftilt.
- Decrease the endlag on dtilt. Why is it more punishable than our smashes?
- Revert hitboxes, damage, and frame data on utilt to Melee version.
- Bring back lingering hitbox on fsmash, increase the size on the sweetspot, and lower the angle the attack sends opponents in.
- Increase hitbox size on usmash, notably on the backwards hit and increase duration on attack to Brawl version.
- Drastically increase the knockback on sourspotted dsmash.
- Make nair autocancel in a shorthop again.
- Bring back killing fair from Brawl.
- Reduce landing lag on bair and increase it's damage output.
- Give the first hit of uair set knockback and an autolink angle so it properly connects into the second hit.
- Give dair kill power again and reduce it's landing lag.
- Give bthrow kill power.
- Make Judge 2-8 not garbage.

(Also taken from a different thread)
- Make all smashes connect properly, as well as slightly increasing the knockback on their final hits.
- Increase duration of the strong hit on nair and slightly reduce it's landing lag.
- Make fair autocancel in a shorthop. At this point in time, there is no reason to use it over bair outside of it's slightly lower landing lag making it less punishable. But wait, bair has better autocancel frames.
- Give the hits of uair an autolink angle like Yoshi's bair so the hits connect better.
- Heavily increase the knockback on the spike hit of dair (it has less knockback than the final hit of Kirby's dair). Decrease it's landing lag as well.
- Either give Duck Hunt the ability to hit cans in the air, or take away the ability for others to do so.
- Drastically decrease the endlag on Clay Pigeon. It's even worse than Falco's laser.
- Increase health and damage output on Gunmen. Decrease their startup too (Frame 53-89 is ridiculous).

(Taken from a different thread as well)
- Reduce knockback on bthrow and uair.

- Reduce overall lag on all grabs, especially pivot grab.
- Give him atleast one throw worth anything.

- Fix grab.
- Fix Teleport so it doesn't SD on certain stages.

- Reduce landing lag on all aerials.
- Drastically decrease endlag on Flame Breath.

- Increase endlag on smashes.
- Increase distance and height on side and up special.
- Increase power on aerials and decrease their landing lag. I get he's supposed to have bad air game, but this is ridiculous.
:Everycharacterwithastallthenfalldair:
- Reduce landing lag on dair.

Deleted member · Dec 18, 2015

A'ight, time for another round of these. I'm gonna go with another one of my mains...

The Garlic Glutton

Make down throw send at a more diagonal angle. The thing about Wario is his lack of throw followups besides up throw to up air with no DI, or down throw into dash attack at low percents. Down throw sending opponents above him with allow him to follow up with nair or bair, both of which are very good, reasonably damaging aerials.
Restore up air's knockback to the Brawl version. Wario has troubles killing aside from Waft, ftilt and the lucky fthrow at the ledge. This'd give him a more reliable KO option, up air is way too weak in its current state.
Down air autocancels out of a shorthop. This would be huge for Wario. The move is great for edgeguarding as is, but this'd make it significantly safer onstage and allow for Wario to follow up with other moves.
Decrease startup/ending lag on smashes. All of Wario's smash attacks are pretty bad, particularly down smash. Up smash needs more horizontal range akin to Mario's and have more KO power as well.

Some Idiot · Dec 18, 2015

INB4 better nerf

GreenMonkey · Dec 18, 2015

Bowserboy3 said:
If I was to add balance changes, I would want to see a couple of changes to Marth and Samus. I would change...

Changes

For a start, fix some of the problems with his moveset. Up Tilt needs to follow the sword trail more reliably, and Dancing Blade side 2 needs to actually hit opponents consistently, and not clip underneath them. I would also change the angle of Down 3 angle from 44° (in patch 1.1.3) back to 20° (every version before 1.1.3). Though the 44° angle isn't bad (in fact, it allows you at certain percents to get tipper side 4), it's just a personal thing as I prefer being able to link into Down 4 for longer. Alternatively, they could just make Down 3 spike again like in Brawl, but it should be a very weak spike, so even if it is landed at the edge of the stage, it cannot finish stocks. Lucina should get these changes too. Up Air also needs a slightly bigger tipper hitbox, as it is very small.

A couple of his moves deserve a tiny bit more damage. Up Tilt could do with a 1% buff, making it 6% arm, 7% sword, and 10% tipper. At least then it would match with the 7% sword and 10% tipper of Dtilt. Besides, it's tough to land the tipper on Up Tilt, so having a reliable 6% or 7% would be nicer. I also don't know why Down Tilt's sour was lowered by 1%. Please make it back to 8%.I would also like to see Forward Air with a 1% damage buff. It deals the least amount of damage of his aerials. Counting in move staling, and often times you will only be doing 8% for a tipper. Make it 8% sour and 11% tip please. In regards to Lucina, I could see her moves getting a 0.5% increase too so she doesn't get outclassed.

Speaking of Forward Air, it needs some sort of buff. Now I know Sakurai and co are trying to make it balanced, so I won't say give it everything it used to have back. To make it nerfed from Brawl but still good and balanced in Smash 4, I think it needs one of these two options; a) IASA frames near the end of the move to allow another attack. This alone would make the move good because you could get more more follow up options, but all of his aerials would still be laggier than Brawl. b) If that option is ignored, it needs better auto cancel windows. This way, you can do a Forward Air, and if you want to end it sooner, fast fall as you are coming down to auto cancel it. It's autocancel frame is currently any frame on or after 36. Changing this to at least frame 30 would make the move safer, but not abusable. It would mean you can safely poke or fade out with no lag, putting out Forward Aerials quicker and easier than now, but less quick than Double Fair in Brawl. Forward Air also need less landing lag. It currently has 16 frames of landing lag. Either 14 frames, 12 frames or 9 frames. Lucina would also get these changes.

Forward Smash needs an altered animation to give it more range like in Brawl. I don't even know what Marth is doing in his current animation. Try replicating it. IT HURTS. Then try replicating the Brawl one. Much nicer. But in all seriousness, the altered animation would give it slightly more range. Again, Lucina would get this change.

Finally, he needs better options from Throws. I am not being greedy and asking for pre patch Luigi kill confirms or pre patch Diddy combo strings, no. I just want him to get reward off his grabs until about 40% or something. Half the knockback on his Down and Forward throws to give him follow ups for longer and reduce the knockback growth by 5 points or something. As normal, Lucina would get this change too.

That is honestly all I feel Marth needs. I could go on about saying he needs a better more active spike, or less lag on all of his aerials and most of his ground moves, or a few frames less start up on a few moves, but that is just nit picky. What I have mentioned is what I strongly believe Marth NEEDS to be able to compete at a high level.

Changes

Only a couple of her moves need reliability checks. Dash Attack needs to come out a couple of frames earlier (from frame 10 to frame 8 like Brawl please), as this will allow it to hit more reliably. Jab has no excuse not to link other than Sakurai being an ***. For compensation of it linking, the 2nd hit should come down from 8% to 6%. Up Smash could do with a launching hit like Marth or Mewtwo. To compensate, it should kill about 5% later.

Forward Tilt needs that horrible sourspot from 1.0.6 removing. Why was this even necessary?

Forward Smash's sourspot needs to reach all the way down her arm to her body to stop it missing at extremely close range (even though Down Tilt is safer at close range), and the sweetspot needs to be bigger to cover the explosion.

Down Smash needs to kill earlier. It is currently the weakest Down Smash. I have no problem with that, but it is far and away the weakest. It KO's at 180%. Please make it 150% at least.

Forward Air needs less landing lag seeing as it cannot auto cancel any more. 18 frames like Bair would be nice. I mean, it doesn't kill like Bair, so even less would be nice, but all I ask for is at least 18 frames. And for those saying it doesn't link, have you even used it? It uses the Auto Link angle, it links perfectly fine.

Reduce the cooldown on all her grabs by 5 frames or so.

Speed up her Roll by 5 frames. This way, it would still be the slowest, but not the complete worst.

A Down Throw angle change from 80° to about 84° would make away DI less effective, giving her a better combo throw.

A change to either Forward Throw or Back Throw (both 60BKB, 55KBG) to allow one to have potential to kill at a realistic percent would be nice. Both of these do not kill until about 200%. Even allowing one of them to kill at around 150% would be nice. Increase the knockback on one (preferably Forward Throw) to something like 65BKB/65KBG would allow it to kill a bit sooner. It is just nice to have a last resort option.
Perhaps change the angle to 40° to match Back Throw too.

Missiles need a change. A few frames less ending lag would be nice. At least 3, maybe 5. Though you would still be restricted to 2 missiles and 1 super on screen at a time, it would give Samus more time to react if the opponent shields them. Super Missiles could also do with a knockback change to let them have more chance of killing. Increasing the BKB and KBG from 50/65 to 60/70 and changing the launch angle from 65° to 45° would allow them to have more offensive potential, but still not be overpowered.

As with Marth, this is all I feel Samus NEEDS. Of course I could go on and ask for things like auto cancel missiles, Down Tilt more powerful, old Nair etc but they aren't needed.

I'd also like to see a few changes for , but seeing as they aren't as extensive as my changes for Marth and Samus, I will say them here. Weight up to at least 80 units, Teleport reduced landing lag, and Down Throw more hitstun and a few frames less ending lag for better follow ups.

I agree with

needs better throws (perhaps a combo-starter throw or a slightly stronger Up-Throw for killing), but I believe the rest of his moveset is fine as is. I think increasing F-Smash's range is unnecessary since he already has enough range. With his F-Air, less endlag would be appreciated, but an alternative to two consecutive F-Airs is SH Dancing Blade, jump, then F-Air.

With

, I support your suggested buffs with her F-Smash and snail-slow Roll. However, I don't think improvement to her throws/grab is needed. With projectile-centric characters, opponents would be instinctively obliged to shield. Having a strong grab game would make Samus almost unbearable, since she would be able to quickly alternative from projectile-throwing to grabbing. A slight increase with F-Throw and B-Throw's knockback would be just fine.

Lag Chan · Dec 18, 2015

Guess I'll give this a shot. I'm no pro so feel free to berate me to hell. Since Dedede got covered nicely I'll focus on other characters:

Glass Cannons deserve better
Increase grab range: Mac's second biggest weakness is how poor his options are against shield, and having a terrible grab game as a whole doesn't help. Mac's grabs themselves are fine, they're not great but they don't need to be. Having actually decent grab range on the other hand, is a must. Mac's meant to be great on the ground, so give him a grab he can actually connect with.
Side B DOESN'T go into special fall: Side B is a decent move, it's not perfect but it does decent damage and it's a decent approach option too. But the infamous sui-side b keeps it from being "good", and really the move is unsafe enough on shield, plus it would counter act the nerf it got at least if Mac could follow up with a up B after, plus it would still have the same end lag as before. A strange change but it wouldn't break Mac.
Fix an issue with forward smash: Seems like there's some odd problem where sometimes if you use Mac's forward smash too close to someone, it won't hit and Mac simply goes right past the opponent, which ultimately ends up making you a sitting duck for attack. Having this changed would be nice.
Slight Buff to the range of up/down angle forward smash: Seems like these both just barely miss every single time, so just a tiny range buff would be nice.
Increased shield damage on down angle forward smash: The move is Mac's only move (Well, reliable anyways) that does significant shield damage, but it doesn't feel enough. The move is meant to punish anyway, made to be a move that punishes overly defensive play for a character who struggles against it. Giving it some extra damage so it breaks shields more reliably would help out a lot against defence.
Consistent KO punch hitbox: Not a buff, but just a change to make it so the visual matches the hitbox. I swear this move misses so much when it looks like it should hit. Oh yeah, and
REMOVE KO PUNCH WINDBOX: It doesn't need it, at all.

GreenMonkey · Dec 18, 2015

Lag Chan said:
Guess I'll give this a shot. I'm no pro so feel free to berate me to hell. Since Dedede got covered nicely I'll focus on other characters:

Glass Cannons deserve better
Increase grab range: Mac's second biggest weakness is how poor his options are against shield, and having a terrible grab game as a whole doesn't help. Mac's grabs themselves are fine, they're not great but they don't need to be. Having actually decent grab range on the other hand, is a must. Mac's meant to be great on the ground, so give him a grab he can actually connect with.
Side B DOESN'T go into special fall: Side B is a decent move, it's not perfect but it does decent damage and it's a decent approach option too. But the infamous sui-side b keeps it from being "good", and really the move is unsafe enough on shield, plus it would counter act the nerf it got at least if Mac could follow up with a up B after, plus it would still have the same end lag as before. A strange change but it wouldn't break Mac.
Fix an issue with forward smash: Seems like there's some odd problem where sometimes if you use Mac's forward smash too close to someone, it won't hit and Mac simply goes right past the opponent, which ultimately ends up making you a sitting duck for attack. Having this changed would be nice.
Slight Buff to the range of up/down angle forward smash: Seems like these both just barely miss every single time, so just a tiny range buff would be nice.
Increased shield damage on down angle forward smash: The move is Mac's only move (Well, reliable anyways) that does significant shield damage, but it doesn't feel enough. The move is meant to punish anyway, made to be a move that punishes overly defensive play for a character who struggles against it. Giving it some extra damage so it breaks shields more reliably would help out a lot against defence.
Consistent KO punch hitbox: Not a buff, but just a change to make it so the visual matches the hitbox. I swear this move misses so much when it looks like it should hit. Oh yeah, and
REMOVE KO PUNCH WINDBOX: It doesn't need it, at all.

Woah woah that is a very long list with only buffs and no nerfs whatsoever to balance your suggested upgrades. Little Mac has many tools in his arsenal, and it would only be unfair to the other characters if they were ignored and Mac receives layers and layers of improvement. However, some buffs would indeed be appreciated to round him out.

With Side-B's free fall, I think instead of completely removing the special fall, Little Mac should be stopped on the ledge if he uses it on the ground similar to the Space Animals' Side-B. This way, the move wouldn't be too improved, but the chances of amateur SD's would be way lower. And believe me, I'm sick of seeing Macs diving off the stage to their deaths, too.

With Mac's smashes, I feel like they're fine as it. All three are very strong with high damage and knockback, and they even give him super armor during the charge. More range or shield damage would make them very difficult to avoid or punish, respectively.

With the KO Punch, I suggest D-Tilt into Punch to land it more consistently. Also, keep in mind that Mac takes a step forward before throwing the punch. Taking that extra distance into consideration may help you.

Mr.Seven · Dec 19, 2015

L9999 said:
PK Fire is atrociously laggy, It's predictable and has abysmal startup. The moment he starts it, SHIELD. It's not like he can move afterwards because the endlag is abysmal as well. After shielding punish it. If you Get hit, DI upwards, jump, roll, JAB, there are.many options. And PK Thunder is powerful because it is an abysmal recovery. Just throw yourself out, get hit and tech the wall, Ness dies. There is a reason top Ness players don't use PK Fire very much. It's because it kinda sucks.

Even though it can be predictable. There is no way it's laggy. I just can not believe that. I've seen it spammed way too many times to believe it's laggy. It's not. It's the number 1 most spammed move I've ever seen.

LunarWingCloud · Dec 19, 2015

BUFF
-Change knockback on down throw and/or up throw to better allow other moves to follow up, as it stands they don't give much opportunity to combo after
-Slightly reduce ending and/or startup lag on a few moves such as forward smash

BUFF
-Slightly increase sword size, giving them slightly more range overall

BUFF
-Reduce startup lag on a few moves to improve his offense a little, such as reinstating the swiftness of his down aerial from Brawl

Only characters I use that I can currently think of anything decent for. I honestly don't think many characters need much of a nerf, except for characters with moves that can chain into themselves having those moves be adjusted slightly to disallow that, depends though, I don't think it'd be that necessary overall but it's just a minor annoyance.

StraightUpSquared · Dec 19, 2015

I've decided that I want in on this, so here are a few buffs I have in mind.

Kirby
While the new patch was very helpful for kirby, there are still quite a few buffs he could use to make him competitively viable.

Decrease startup for forward and neutral aerials: A common misconception about Kirby's aerials is that that they are fast, they just aren't, kirby's only aerial faster that frame 10 is his b-air, and for a character with airspeed and approach game as bad as Kirby's, that's confusing to say the least, so I believe a 4 frame cut to forward air(10->6) and a 6 frame cut to neutral air(10->4) would be perfectly reasonable.

Increase knockback on up-air: One of Kirby's bigger problems is his relatively low amount of reliable kill moves and lack of kill setups, a much stronger up air with increased damage(9->13) would greatly help this, as it could open new opportunities for kill setups and 50/50s out of up tilt.

Increase knockback and damage on dash attack: Kirby's dash attack really is a lost cause with next to no reward on hit, because of its low damage output, long statup and atrocious combination of high base knockback and very low growth, this move serves next to no purpose in a match other than beating spotdodges and rolls, so I believe this attack would be much more useful if it was a kill move, because it would help create threatening situations at high percents due to its ability to beat out dodges.

Increase airspeed from 0.8 to 1.0~1.05: For Kirby to properly put these buffs to use and form a much more flexible and threatening neutral and combo game, an airspeed buff would be immensely useful.

The (almost) perfect penguin

Decrease startup, endlag and increase damage output on damn near EVERYTHING

It's common knowledge at this point that DeDeDe is among the worst characters in the game and possibly the worst heavy, why? A complete lack of safety in everything he does, he HAS to approach, he cannot deal with projectiles or pressure of any kind due to his downright terrible mobility and frame data. And once he does get in you'd be surprised by his low damage output(for a heavy) and wildly inconsistent kill power, with many of his kill moves being either hilariously unsafe(DA, forward smash) or not that strong at all(Usmash, Utilt). If I were to discuss every aspect of DDD that needed changing, this would take forever to read, so here's a "changelist", take it as you will, and if you have any questions about my decisions, I will gladly answer back.
~
Global changes

Increase airspeed from 0.658 to 0.8.

Ground moveset

Increase damage on ftilt from 11/9% to a more consistent 12%, and decrease cooldown slightly.

Make jab harder to SDI out of.

Decrease cooldown on Utilt and make it KO at 120~130%.

Make hitboxes match animations on up-smash, increase damage(14%->18%) and decrease startup(17->14).

Revert down throw to its 1.0 form.

Aerial moveset

F-air: Decrease startup(13->10), increase damage(12%->14) and knockback growth, reduce FAF frames(42->38) and reduce landing lag(30->20).

D-air: Increase hitbox sizes, increase damage(15%->18%), decrease startup(22->18) and reduce landing lag(30->25).

U-air: increase damage(12%->15%).

B-air: Make hitboxes better match animations and decrease startup(17->13).

Specials

Increase hitbox sizes on jet hammer and make a fully charged hit break shields.

Increase Gordo reflection damage from 2% to 5~6%

Wintermelon43 · Dec 19, 2015

As it's the 19th: (Sorry if I had to wait for the 20th, I wasn't sure)

Non top and high tiers:

Zerp · Dec 19, 2015

Sorry that I haven't explained how to do the list yet, I was in the middle of a few errands so I'm a bit late (and by a bit I mean it's 5 PM here, so I'm very late). Sorry about that.

Wintermelon43 said:
As it's the 19th: (Sorry if I had to wait for the 20th, I wasn't sure)

Non top and high tiers:

Nah, you didn't have to wait for the 20th, your right, it's the 19th

.

So, up until Dec.26th, we're going to be voting on the characters you think aren't high tier. All you guys have to do to vote is just list every character you think isn't a high tier character like Wintermelon did correctly right above this post. It doesn't have to be in order or anything either, and you can even just list all the high tier characters just make sure to tell me to count that vote as if it was everyone you didn't list, if that's easier for you

.

For example this is my vote:

Your of course still welcome to discuss what balance changes you want, this is just a way for us to whittle down our batch of characters for the actual buffs-nerfs phase of voting.

LunarWingCloud · Dec 19, 2015

Picking between "high" and "mid high" was really hard. That's a really hazy line. Roy and the Pit bros are are on a fine line but I ultimately put them in mid high which relegated them here.

Furret24 · Dec 19, 2015

Okay then.

MarioMeteor · Dec 19, 2015

For the sake of saving space, I agree with the previous two lists, sans Roy and Lucario. As for balance changes:

- The Queen of Salt herself -

Increase the range on all of her tilts.
Increase forward tilts knockback.
Decrease down tilt's starting and ending lag.
Decrease up tilt's knockback scaling and increase the size of the hitbox.
Decrease up smash's starting and ending lag.
Decrease down smash's starting lag, increase the damage, range, and knockback.
Increase forward air's shield pushback.
Make it so that down air spikes and autocancels.
Sync back air's hitbox with its animation.
Increase up air's range and speed.
Make forward throw a semi-spike, akin to Melee.
Decrease down throw's base knockback and knockback scaling.
Dramatically increase up throw's knockback scaling.

/

- The Hero-Kings -

Decrease up tilt's ending lag. (Both)
Increase down smash's knockback. (Both)
Decrease neutral air's ending lag. (Both)
Decrease forward air's ending lag. (Marth)
Increase the spike hitbox on down air (Lucina) and make it so that tipper down air will always spike (Marth).
Decrease forward throw's base knockback and knockback scaling. (Both)
Do the same with down throw.
Decrease back throw's ending lag and make it a semi-spike. (Both)
Readjust Marth's tipper hitboxes. Or at least make them not ****ty.

- Get Some -

Give jab infinite an extra hit to make sure floaties can fall out of it.
Increase up smash's knockback scaling and decrease the ending lag.
Do the same for down smash and get rid of that stupid sourspot.
Slightly increase up air's scaling.
Decrease Blaster's ending lag.
Make Falco's body the hitbox on Falco Phantasm.

- Dr. Doom -

Increase down smash's damage from 10% front and 14% back to 13% front and 17% back.
Increase neutral air's damage from 5% early and 8% clean to 8% early and 11% clean. Dramatically increase the knockback scaling, too.
Remove forward air's sourspot and cut off 3 starting frames.
Increase up air's hitstun and decrease the ending lag.
Increase the distance gained on Super Jump Punch.
Decrease down air's ending lag, landing lag, and increase the number of hits.
Increase Dr. Tornado's damage from 8% to 12% and increase the distance gained.
Increase back throw's knockback scaling.

- Best Clone Ever -

Decrease forward tilt's starting lag.
Give up tilt a consistent hitbox behind Mewtwo.
Increase up smash's grounded hitbox.
Decrease down and up throw's ending lag.

GreenMonkey · Dec 19, 2015

My vote!

/

L9999 · Dec 19, 2015

Balance stuff. If I go too far please tell me.

Go the Lucas route. For starters, TL's grab is bad. His grab barely has any range, it's too laggy, and if you get one, it does jack other than stage control and a situational BThrow that you forget about it most of the time. Speeding up his grab so it isn't completely terrible is the first step. Then giving TL an actual combo throw so he can have an easier time racking up damage.

Repurpose her entire existence. Reduced landing lag so she can pressure with something like Fair, because currently Lucina can't threathen anyone with anything. Next is giving her throws that at the very least are good for playing mindgames or getting 50/50s. And finally, fixing the atrociously animations in relation to their hitboxes. Lucina has bad range already and bad animations and blindspots make it worse.

The mindgame throws I mentioned earlier. A thing I would love to see is that his animations in relation to the tipper hitbox actually matched. And a fixing of animations and hitboxes in general. How can Sheik's Fair outrange Marth's when it doesn't look like it still boggles me.

Another character that needs a Repurpose of life...Number 1 is her Bair. Either it has more active frames or it has a better hitbox. Or both. Next is giving Utilt better range, giving Dtilt a purpose like trip to Resto, make it faster I don't know, bring back Melee USmash, Brawl Rollout, Brawl Pound, and Brawl Dair.

L1N3R1D3R · Dec 19, 2015

HIGH/TOP TIERS:

(possibly

and

)

So anyone I haven't listed is mid-high or lower.

+ Make speed faster in general
+ Make tomes not run out as quickly
+ Make Thunder charge more quickly
- Make Nosferatu not heal as much damage

+ Make up smash a scooping move
+ Make aerial moves a bit less laggy
+ Make F smash more powerful
- Reduce the percentage of cargo up throw to 7% (after all, 10% is kinda ridiculous for a combo throw)

+ Make Sing better
+ Make all aerials have more range
+ Make Rest have a slightly bigger hitbox and kill slightly earlier

+ Make his attacks safe on shield

+ Make up air have longer-lasting knockback
+ Make up B go higher
+ Make down B not have as much end lag

+ Make him heavier
+ Make down throw have less end lag

+ Make non-LB up B be slightly better at recovering and snap to the ledge

+ Remove free fall after side B and down B
+ Make up B have a much earlier FAF (for steering left and right)

+ Revert his aerial side B back to its slightly better 1.0.2 form in terms of aerial distance

+ Make down throw have less end lag

+ Remove a couple frames of lag on all moves

+ Make boomerang come out faster

+ Make non-aura form not quite as weak
- Make aura form not quite as broken

There's bound to be more I'm forgetting.

FamilyTeam · Dec 19, 2015

If I were to say who I think are Low/Mid tier, I'd probably save myself quite a lot of time and do it like the guy above me did and list who I think is High and Top tier instead.
So, these are the people that I think are Top and High tier, and pretty much almost in this order:

The first four are very good characters with a lot of potential and not that many weaknesses. The following others are characters almost as good, but with weaknesses far more pronounced (Respectively: Not many kill moves; lack of specialty and average recovery; almost the same things as his brother, but he's somewhat reliant on chance and perfect timing to be really effective; predictable recovery, somewhat laggy kill moves on the ground and is combo food; even more of combo food, even more predictable recovery; average recovery, somewhat laggy, hilt is harder to hit than a tipper for me, probably has untapped potential; no recovery at all, lose your double jump and you're dead, doesn't feel as versatile as the others). Something tells me this is not the thread to discuss this, but if I was going to say who was going to be considered Top and High Tier and who wasn't, it'd only be fair to explain my stance as to why.

I think the rest, then are Mid and Low Tier.

,

and

were characters I almost considered including on that list. For Cloud, I'd give him more time, maybe people will find out neat stuff about him and he'll atleast be really low on High Tier. As of now, I'd say the best he's getting is upper Mid Tier.

valakmtnsmash4 · Dec 20, 2015

FamilyTeam said:
If I were to say who I think are Low/Mid tier, I'd probably save myself quite a lot of time and do it like the guy above me did and list who I think is High and Top tier instead.
So, these are the people that I think are Top and High tier, and pretty much almost in this order:

Why. Why is Roy in that list?
But you are right about the reasoning for his downfall as a character. however, I don't think that Roy is among the likes of fox and yoshi.

I'll post my characters that I want buffed in greater detail at a later point

FamilyTeam · Dec 20, 2015

valakmtnsmash4 said:
Why. Why is Roy in that list?

The sole reason he's there is because I feel people can probably still turn him into something else. He's an OK character right now, but maybe someone will someday rise and show us their moves with Roy.
If that never happens you can place him right in front of Marth, IMO.

The Unofficial Super Smash Bros Balancing Committee- Anything and everything!

Formerly "ZeroSoul"

Attachments

Smash Apprentice

Smash Apprentice

Deleted member

Guest

Peace and love and all that jazzmatazz~! <3

Deleted member

Guest

Smash Journeyman

This strength serves more than me alone.

Smash Journeyman

Smash Lord

Smash Apprentice

Smash Rookie

Smash Rookie

This strength serves more than me alone.

Smash Apprentice

This strength serves more than me alone.

Smash Apprentice

Asking mum how to talk to a lady

Smash Champion

This strength serves more than me alone.

Smash Master

Deleted member

Guest

Smash Rookie

Smash Apprentice

Fastfall Nair Everyday

Smash Apprentice

Smash Journeyman

Smash Lord

Smash Rookie

Smash Champion

Formerly "ZeroSoul"

Smash Lord

Smash Master

Smash Hero

Smash Apprentice

Smash Champion

Smash Lord

This strength serves more than me alone.

Smash Ace

This strength serves more than me alone.

Information

Network