The Secret Tier List and Match Ups (Explanations included)

[Yobolight]

Actual Tier List:
Top:
pika
kirby
fox

High:
falcon

Mid:
mario
yoshi
ness
puff
dk
link

Low:
luigi
samus

Actual Match Ups:
Rat = Kirby
This might be controversial, but I think that the rat's uair chains don't give him the advantage even considering that they work pretty well on Kirby. Kirby can out range a good deal of Pikas stuff.
Rat > Fox
Rat is a gimp machine
Rat > Doug
Rat is a gimp machine
Rat > Mario
Rat is a gimp machine
Rat > Yoshi
Rat is a gimp machine
Rat > DK
Rat is a gimp machine
Rat > Jiggly
Rat is a gimp machine
Rat >> Ness
Rat is a super duper gimp machine
Rat >> Link
Rat is a super duper gimp machine
Rat >> Luigi
Rat is a super duper gimp machine
Rat >> Samus
Samus is too floaty

Kirby > Fox
Gimp city for both, but that utilt just does it
Kirby > Mario
He just wins
Kirby > Doug
Combos + Gimps
Kirby > Yoshi
Yoshi can't compete
Kirby >> DK
Kirby just needs to not get grabbed and not
Kirby > Jiggly
If Kirby knows to stay in the air all the time Jiggly is shut out
Kirby >> Ness
Ness get ****ed up
Kirby >> Link
Outside of Hyrule link can't really do much against a Kirby that is competent.
Kirby > Luigi
At least Luigi doesn't get utilted that hard and can sometimes recover, but it is definitely in Kirby's favor
Kirby >> Samus
Samus is too floaty

Fox = Doug
Combos and gimps for both
Fox > Mario
Fox does most things Mario can do better
Fox > Yoshi
Yoshers at least can exploit Fox's weight, but Fox is **** so it doesn't matter
Fox > DK
Laser camping
Fox >> Jiggly
Jiggs dieing at like 20% here
Fox > Ness
Ness can actually do some good comboing here, but fox is just better. When the Fox laser camps I usually just run really far away and down B or hide till it gets bored and stops on Hyrule.
Fox >> Link
Game over for Link
Fox >> Luigi
Luigi can not approach
Fox >> Samus
Samus is too floaty

Doug = Mario
Fireball approaches keep it even
Doug > Yoshi
They both combo each other really hard
Doug >> DK
gimp, gimp, gimp
Doug = Jiggly
Jiggly is harder for falcon to combo and is zero-death from one forward throw by Jiggly
Doug = Ness
They both combo each other really well and get gimped by each other brutally
Doug >> Link
Just ban Hyrule and link is already done
Doug > Luigi
I sometimes feel like a campy luigi can sometimes win
Doug > Samus
Samus is too floaty

Mario = Yoshi
They are even.
Mario > DK
Fireball approaches = DK's end
Mario >> Jiggly
Upsmash is too good and
Mario >/>> Ness
Ness has a hard time edge guarding and is generally worse in every way. A DJCed Uair at zero ususally brings Mario's death though.
Mario > Link
Moar projectiles
Mario > Luigi
Anything Luigi can do Mario can do better
Mario >> Samus
Samus is too floaty

Yoshi > DK
Yoshi really destroys DK here.
Yoshi = Jiggly
Yoshi doesn't have any particularly good out of shield options
Yoshi < Ness
Ness can combo Yoshi, while Yoshi struggles to return the favor
Yoshi > Link
Yoshi just wins
Yoshi > Luigi
This one is actually fairly close, but Yoshi's approach carries the day
Yoshi > Samus
Samus is too floaty

DK > Jiggly
Jiggly is just soooo light and DK hits soooo hard
DK = Ness
Ness combos DK into oblivion, but DK out ranges so it is a wash
DK >> Link
Those arms....
DK = Luigi
The monkey has issues near the ledge
DK > Samus
Samus is too floaty

Jiggly > Ness
Her ability to shut down Ness's approach entirely is huge here
Jiggly > Link
Rest Combos
Jiggly << Luigi
This matchup just sucks for Jiggly
Jiggly < Samus
Samus is too floaty, but she outranges jiggly and her moves hit hard.

Ness > Link
Link can't evade forever
Ness > Luigi
Luigi is one of the few characters Ness can really approach well
Ness > Samus
Samus is too floaty

Link > Luigi
Link has the range and attributes to win here
Link > Samus
Samus is too floaty

Luigi = Samus
Samus is too floaty, but so is Luigi so it really comes down to a float-off.

I will fill in the description as I feel

 

[Battlecow]

Now this is just getting annoying

 

[Yobolight]

Now this is just getting annoying

Prove me wrong then.

 

[Korrupshen]

Oh Jeez......

Yoshi < Ness

explain more plz...

Yoshi has super armor, his shield doesn't go down like the rest of the characters but instead turns red, he can parry, and he as more aerials that'll make shield breaking & pressuring a lot more easier compared to Ness. Now explain how does Yoshi struggle ?

 

[mikeduncan23]

how can anyone "prove" a tier list right or wrong? A lot of it is dependent on playing styles and the person controlling the character.

 

[Yobolight]

Oh Jeez......

Yoshi < Ness

explain more plz...

Yoshi has super armor, his shield doesn't go down like the rest of the characters but instead turns red, he can parry, and he as more aerials that'll make shield breaking & pressuring a lot more easier compared to Ness. Now explain how does Yoshi struggle ?

Yoshi's uptilt and Uair sends Ness too high, whereas Ness's utilt and uair send the opponent just right. Yoshi can't edge guard Ness quite as well as most of the cast because he can't return to the stage after disrupting an attempted PK thunder sweetspot. They both shield break on demand so I don't know what your shield breaking bit has to do with anything.

how can anyone "prove" a tier list right or wrong? A lot of it is dependent on playing styles and the person controlling the character.

Highest level play only bro

 

[Battlecow]

Yeah dude, I could say a lot of things about each of those claims. I can't "prove" anything by theorycraft over the boards. This is a good place to share thoughts and ideas about matchups, but discussion is not a substitute for experience with high-level play.

The list itself isn't annoying, it's OK. What's annoying is you creating this thread and calling it the "secret real tier list." And saying things like "yoshi just can't compete" or whatever "proves" a matchup either way is just... silly.

 

[Korrupshen]

The whole point of a tier list is to see who has more opportunity and advantage over who at the highest level of play.

And Yobolight your talking as if Yoshi gets wrecked in this MU.

 

[Yobolight]

The whole point of a tier list is to see who has more opportunity and advantage over who at the highest level of play.

And Yobolight your talking as if Yoshi gets wrecked in this MU.

Wrecked = >> or <<.
> or < is just advantage

 

[Korrupshen]

This is what I got from you

"Yoshi struggles to return the favor"

Yoshi doesn't really struggle. And I'm pretty sure Yoshi's aerials have better range which already gives him the ability to outspace ness. "Correct if I'm wrong".

And most of these explanations aren't even valid arguments to why who is better than who

 

[Yobolight]

This is what I got from you

"Yoshi struggles to return the favor"

Yoshi doesn't really struggle. And I'm pretty sure Yoshi's aerials have better range which already gives him the ability to outspace ness. "Correct if I'm wrong".

And most of these explanations aren't even valid arguments to why who is better than who

Ness getting outranged is par for the course. I didn't think i needed to say that. The explanations are WIP it would take a long time to do.

 

[WOTG]

I just wanna say, that saying things like, "Samus is too floaty" is not even a logical disadvantage...

The explanations are too simple and vague, not detailed enough for this thread to be taken seriously.

 

[asianaussie]

i sorta liked when you were posting constructively and tentatively, but this?

play better yoshis please, better dks too

wtf is a 'float-off'

 

[ballin4life]

it's dumb to limit matchups to only =, >, and >>. IMO you need a >>> so that there are 3 levels of advantage. Otherwise you wind up with things like Falcon < Pika and Falcon < Kirby, when I think one is clearly much more of a counterpick (same for Yoshi's matchups against Pika/Kirby too and I'm sure you could find many other examples).

Also it just wouldn't be a ballin4life matchup chart post without me loling at Fox > Mario and Fox >> Jiggs

 

[The Star King]

i sorta liked when you were posting constructively and tentatively, but this?

This. I tried to like you bro, I really did. It feels like you're just trolling now.

You can't "prove" match-ups. And especially not in the way you've posted about them.

Luigi > Pikachu
Luigi kills Pikachu off the top sooner
prove me wrong

^That's what you're doing

 

[M!nt]

jiggly = falcon?

do a lot of people think that?

 

[SheerMadness]

My Yoshi would dominate your Ness.

How's that for proving you wrong?

 

[ballin4life]

My Yoshi would dominate your Ness.

How's that for proving you wrong?

looks like this noob doesn't know how unpredictable Ness's DJCs are

 

[WOTG]

I'll take that challenge, Sheer, whenever we get a chance to p2p.

I'll accept any challenge, who want it?

 

[Yobolight]

it's dumb to limit matchups to only =, >, and >>. IMO you need a >>> so that there are 3 levels of advantage. Otherwise you wind up with things like Falcon < Pika and Falcon < Kirby, when I think one is clearly much more of a counterpick (same for Yoshi's matchups against Pika/Kirby too and I'm sure you could find many other examples).

Also it just wouldn't be a ballin4life matchup chart post without me loling at Fox > Mario and Fox >> Jiggs

That is a really good idea Im going to do that.

This. I tried to like you bro, I really did.

Haters gonna hate.

My Yoshi would dominate your Ness.

How's that for proving you wrong?

I only have a mac laptop so I don't know if I can play online with that + I do not wanna learn how to play on a keyboard. I am recording a bunch of matches right now that I will probably put on YouTube. You can offer criticism if you want.

 

[WOTG]

>>> is WAY too much, no character beats another THAT badly

I'm thinking >> is too much as it is, if you get beat that badly, that's your problem.

 

[Yobolight]

>>> is WAY too much, no character beats another THAT badly

I'm thinking >> is too much as it is, if you get beat that badly, that's your problem.

I think that he means that because the there are three levels that they would each be revalued

> = Slight advantage eg. Yoshi > Mario
>> = Moderate Advantage eg. Ness >> Luigi
>>> = Large advantage Pikach >>> Ness

 

[WOTG]

That wasn't the original intention, ">" is in favor, ">>" is largely in favor.

 

[SheerMadness]

We've already played plenty Yoshi vs Ness WOTG.

So I'm not sure what you mean by challenging me.

 

[Yobolight]

That wasn't the original intention, ">" is in favor, ">>" is largely in favor.

That was the original intention, but there is a case to be made that the old system is too vague to be truly representative of the actual match up. The space between = and > and >> is too vague.

 

[Battlecow]

I only have a mac laptop so I don't know if I can play online with that + I do not wanna learn how to play on a keyboard. I am recording a bunch of matches right now that I will probably put on YouTube. You can offer criticism if you want.

I have a mac. Bootcamp. it works.

 

[WOTG]

We've already played plenty Yoshi vs Ness WOTG.

So I'm not sure what you mean by challenging me.

Yeah but I was playing bad.... I told you that. It'll be different this time, I promise. Plus its a fun match-up, don't you think?

That was the original intention, but there is a case to be made that the old system is too vague to be truly representative of the actual match up. The space between = and > and >> is too vague.

I don't think so. We also use numbers.... for example Falcon = Yoshi but 55/45-Falcon.

 

[Battlecow]

the = > >> were supposed to replace numbers

 

[Yobolight]

I think that numbers are impossible to quantify and laughable because of it. I also think the five levels of distinction is too imprecise so I think there should be seven.

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

highly informative and well written OP

 

[The Star King]

Haters gonna hate.

Except I'm not a hater, because if you remember, I was the one who sort of defended the plausability of your claims (well, OK, maybe not as much as I did in my mind because I never finished a large post I was typing). I can't do that anymore though because you decided to portray yourself as someone not to be taken seriously.

Oh, and I like how you ignored the rest of my post that basically exemplifies what a joke the OP is

 

[mikeduncan23]

Highest level play only bro

Thanks "bro", but if your talking "highest level play only" can you explain Isai making it to the finals of Apex using link against numerous top tier characters?

 

[SheerMadness]

Meh have you ever "played well" vs me WOTG?

I'll I ever hear when we play is that you're playing bad. Every single time we play. Ever.

lol

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

>>> is WAY too much, no character beats another THAT badly

I'm thinking >> is too much as it is, if you get beat that badly, that's your problem.

Pikachu vs Samus says Hi.
potentially Fox vs. Samus

Spoiler

(Lasers evryday)

or Falcon vs. Samus for similar reasons

What are you guy's opinions on Luigi vs Jiggs also I find that this might be that bad..might

 

[WOTG]

Meh have you ever "played well" vs me WOTG?

I'll I ever hear when we play is that you're playing bad. Every single time we play. Ever.

lol

Nope, only sometimes.... If you're serious you just have bad memory.

Pikachu vs Samus says Hi.
potentially Fox vs. Samus

Spoiler

(Lasers evryday)

or Falcon vs. Samus for similar reasons

What are you guy's opinions on Luigi vs Jiggs also I find that this might be that bad..might

So if I used Pikachu, Fox, or Falcon vs your Samus, you're gonna lose badly everytime? That's the faith you have in yourself?

Luigi's favor but not by very much.

 

[kys]

Eh, I don't buy the whole, "I wasn't playing well." It happens, but it discredits the other guy. What if he was playing really well, and it wasn't really about you playing poorly? What if you won a bunch of matches but he felt like he was playing poorly, so it caused you to think you were playing well?

It's bull**** to say, "When I'm playing well, then I'll pwn you." Not that you were saying that, I'm just bringing it up. Why can't you play well all the time then? No, meds aren't a john. Step it up.

Results are results man. No johns.

 

[WOTG]

Funny, people that say "no johns" act like they never johnned before.

If you know your maximum potential, you can tell how well you're playing or not.

Spoiler

I can john if I want to, I don't even care if people john if I play them, people that care so much just take the game(or competition) too seriously.

 

[The Star King]

obligatory "Luigi vs Puff isn't that bad

Spoiler

you morons

" post

also why don't you guys just use +1 through +5, we switched to those for the very reason of just two levels of > and >> being not specific enough remember >____> (apparently everyone completely forgot -_________- unbelievable)

 

[asianaussie]

i just assume most of us don't care enough about matchup specifics to bother with anything more than 'even', 'small advantage', or 'advantage' (maybe 'huge advantage' for like, fox link on hyrule)

im totally going to enjoy debating whether mario vs luigi is +2 or +3 or +4

 

[The Star King]

Dude we already used those numbers for a bit though, those number arguments already happened and apparently we cared enough to use them

Holy ****ing ****

You people's memories can't seriously be this bad. My mind is being blown right now. Am I the only sane one in this community?