The Green Lesbian is back! Learn sm4sh Samus from Brawl's best Samus player! Updated 2/19/2015!

[Xyro77]

Originally, I said I would not use Samus in Smash 4 because everything that made me the best Brawl Samus was removed in smash 4.

Ledge play nerf
Zair nerf
Missile cancel gone
Spike nerf
and more......

However, I feel that since most of Samus's worst enemies from brawl got huge nerfs (or flat out got removed...snake/ICs) in smash 4, She may be able to hold her own this time.

Having said that^ Id like this thread (if mods will allow it) to be a thread where we can all go to learn about Samus. I will be posting vids, tips and data concerning Samus in Smash 4 so keep checking back for more info as it becomes available.

Oh and if you have anything worthwhile to share (please no wifi matches/info unless it's truly legit stuff) post it in the thread/tag me and I'll put it on the OP and credit you. The more we combine our efforts and share ideas, the better our Lesbian will be!

____________________

Move-set damage %
(Updated on 11/21/2014)

All moves are uncharged (unless specified) and completely refreshed. Data compiled by @ Xyro77

Jab 1=3%
Jab 2=8%
Dash Attack (close)= 10%
Dash Attack (far)=6%
Zair (point blank 1st hit)=1.5%
Zair (fully extended 1st hit)=3%
Zair (fully extended 1st and 2nd hit)=4.5%
Pummel=1.2%
Uthrow=9%
Dthrow=6%
Bthrow=8%
Fthrow=9%
Ftilt (point blank)=6%
Ftilt (tipped)=7%
Ftilt up (point blank)=7%
Ftilt up (tipped)=8%
Ftilt down (point blank)=7%
Ftilt down (tipped)=8% (can tilt lock)
Dtilt=12%
Utilt (grounded)=13%
Util (air)=12%
Nair (1st hit)=8%
Nair (2nd hit non tipped)=6%
Nair (2nd hit tipped)=7%
Bair (tipped)=14%
Bair (non tipped)=9%
Uair (all hits)=11%
Dair (spike)=14%
Dair (no spike)=10.5%
Fair (all hits)=11%
Dsmash (1st hit)=10%
Dsmash (2nd hit)=12%
Fsmash (point blank)=12%
Fsmash (tipped)=14%
Fsmash up (point blank)=13%
Fsmash up (tipped)=15%
Fsmash down (point blank)=11%
Fsmash down (tipped)=13%
Usmash (all hits)=18%
Charge shot low=3%
Charge shot medium= 11.5%
Charge shot full=25%
Down B (point blank)=9%
Down B (tipped)=5%
Up B (all hits)=12%
Homing missile=5%
Super Missile=10%

____________________

Frame data
(Updated on 11/22/2014)

All frame data comes from here and was originally posted by @ R Rohins

1. BEGIN samus
2. **********
3. Jab1
4. Hits on frame: 3.0
5. Hitboxes end: 5.0
6. Max Hitbox BKB: 80
7. Max Hitbox KBG * Damage: 24.0
8. Max Hitbox Angle: 361
9. Jab2
10. Hits on frame: 6.0
11. Hitboxes end: 10.0
12. Max Hitbox BKB: 95
13. Max Hitbox KBG * Damage: 240.0
14. Max Hitbox Angle: 361
15. Dash Attack
16. Hits on frame: 10.0
17. Hitboxes end: 19.0
18. Max Hitbox BKB: 60
19. Max Hitbox KBG * Damage: 800.0
20. Max Hitbox Angle: 75
21. F-tilt (high)
22. Hits on frame: 8.0
23. Hitboxes end: 11.0
24. Max Hitbox BKB: 90
25. Max Hitbox KBG * Damage: 120.0
26. Max Hitbox Angle: 361
27. F-tilt (normal)
28. Hits on frame: 8.0
29. Hitboxes end: 11.0
30. Max Hitbox BKB: 90
31. Max Hitbox KBG * Damage: 105.0
32. Max Hitbox Angle: 361
33. F-tilt (low)
34. Hits on frame: 8.0
35. Hitboxes end: 11.0
36. Max Hitbox BKB: 90
37. Max Hitbox KBG * Damage: 120.0
38. Max Hitbox Angle: 361
39. U-tilt
40. Hits on frame: 15.0
41. Hitboxes end: 19.0
42. Max Hitbox BKB: 100
43. Max Hitbox KBG * Damage: 520.0
44. Max Hitbox Angle: 270
45. D-tilt
46. Hits on frame: 6.0
47. Hitboxes end: 9.0
48. Max Hitbox BKB: 48
49. Max Hitbox KBG * Damage: 960.0
50. Max Hitbox Angle: 80
51. F-smash release (high)
52. Hits on frame: 10.0
53. Hitboxes end: 12.0
54. Max Hitbox BKB: 100
55. Max Hitbox KBG * Damage: 600.0
56. Max Hitbox Angle: 361
57. F-smash release (normal)
58. Hits on frame: 10.0
59. Hitboxes end: 12.0
60. Max Hitbox BKB: 100
61. Max Hitbox KBG * Damage: 560.0
62. Max Hitbox Angle: 361
63. F-smash release (low)
64. Hits on frame: 10.0
65. Hitboxes end: 12.0
66. Max Hitbox BKB: 100
67. Max Hitbox KBG * Damage: 540.0
68. Max Hitbox Angle: 361
69. U-smash release
70. Hits on frame: 11.0
71. Hitboxes end: 29.0
72. Max Hitbox BKB: 135
73. Max Hitbox KBG * Damage: 300.0
74. Max Hitbox Angle: 80
75. D-smash release
76. Hits on frame: 9.0
77. Hitboxes end: 19.0
78. Max Hitbox BKB: 48
79. Max Hitbox KBG * Damage: 840.0
80. Max Hitbox Angle: 31
81. Nair
82. Hits on frame: 8.0
83. Hitboxes end: 23.0
84. Max Hitbox BKB: 100
85. Max Hitbox KBG * Damage: 320.0
86. Max Hitbox Angle: 32
87. Fair
88. Hits on frame: 6.0
89. Hitboxes end: 20.0
90. Max Hitbox BKB: 140
91. Max Hitbox KBG * Damage: 200.0
92. Max Hitbox Angle: 361
93. Bair
94. Hits on frame: 9.0
95. Hitboxes end: 15.0
96. Max Hitbox BKB: 98
97. Max Hitbox KBG * Damage: 588.0
98. Max Hitbox Angle: 361
99. Uair
100. Hits on frame: 5.0
101. Hitboxes end: 13.0
102. Max Hitbox BKB: 160
103. Max Hitbox KBG * Damage: 160.0
104. Max Hitbox Angle: 70
105. Dair
106. Hits on frame: 17.0
107. Hitboxes end: 24.0
108. Max Hitbox BKB: 85
109. Max Hitbox KBG * Damage: 350.0
110. Max Hitbox Angle: 270
111. Pummel
112. Hits on frame: 3.0
113. Hitboxes end: 4.0
114. Max Hitbox BKB: 100
115. Max Hitbox KBG * Damage: 0.0
116. Max Hitbox Angle: 361
117. F-throw
118. Hits on frame: 0.0
119. Hitboxes end: 0.0
120. Max Hitbox BKB: 55
121. Max Hitbox KBG * Damage: 0
122. Max Hitbox Angle: 42
123. B-throw
124. Hits on frame: 0.0
125. Hitboxes end: 0.0
126. Max Hitbox BKB: 55
127. Max Hitbox KBG * Damage: 0
128. Max Hitbox Angle: 40
129. U-throw
130. Hits on frame: 14.0
131. Hitboxes end: 16.0
132. Max Hitbox BKB: 70
133. Max Hitbox KBG * Damage: 0
134. Max Hitbox Angle: 90
135. D-throw
136. Hits on frame: 0.0
137. Hitboxes end: 0.0
138. Max Hitbox BKB: 50
139. Max Hitbox KBG * Damage: 0
140. Max Hitbox Angle: 80

____________________
Samus videos/techs
(Updated on 12/6/2015)


Smash 4 Samus Zair & Ledge Chronicles: PART 1 (read description before viewing)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oabC4iZ6fQ8

Smash 4 Samus Zair & Ledge Chronicles: PART 2 (read description before viewing)
http://youtu.be/4k4pDRk_vWU

6/11/2014 BestBuy E3 WiiU demo (Pro controller only) FFA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pimgQxlJ7tI
12/6/2014 Xyro (samus) vs Tyle (falco) 1 http://youtu.be/o5Lz-vIZNNE
12/6/2014 Xyro (samus) vs Tyle (falco) 2 http://youtu.be/tnzKg_6I9_Q
12/6/2014 Xyro (samus) vs Tyle (falco) 3 http://youtu.be/4MbICxyWJ-4
12/6/2014 Xyro (samus) vs Johnny Socal (Ike) 1 http://youtu.be/IqmOWYZ43oA
12/6/2014 Xyro (samus) vs Johnny Socal (Ike) 2 http://youtu.be/UqWr2axd3Zo
12/6/2014 Xyro (samus) vs Johnny Socal (MK) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uetY2qVt-X0
12/6/2014 Xyro (samus) vs Gaius (falcon) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ymrSJH3pH8
1/3/2015 Xyro (Samus) vs Krebs (shulk) $10$MM
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QSU0-LzS4Qk&feature=youtu.be
____________________

"Universal" techs that may help Samus
(Updated on 1/12/2015)

Perfect Pivot
http://smashboards.com/threads/the-return-of-wavedashing-perfect-pivoting-might-be-just-that.383292/

Perfect Pivot applications
http://smashboards.com/threads/watch-every-move-in-smash-4-perfect-pivoted.384123/

Frame Cancel
http://smashboards.com/threads/frame-cancel.386639/


____________________


Knowledge is power: The Deeper Aspects of Smash.
(Updated 2/19/2015)

Character weight chart
http://smashboards.com/threads/smash-4-weight-rankings.367479/

The "neutral" game
http://smashboards.com/threads/learn-more-about-smash-4s-neutral-game-from-keitaro-and-false.383968/

Zoning
http://smashboards.com/threads/smash-theory-tackles-zoning-in-smash-4.385789/

Reads
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uvTrJo3DNog


______________________

List detailing how a Fully Charged Charge Shot interacts with opposing projectiles. Data gathered by @Afro Smash
(Updated on 2/18/2015)



Lose (Charge Shot stops, other projectiles remains):

Gyro
PK Fire
Yellow Pikmin



Clank (both are neutralised):

Mecha Koopa
Cannonball
Bombs
Bombs
Grenade Pellet
Aura Sphere (from 56%)
Lloid Rocket
Pikmin (except Yellow)
Sun Salutation (Full Charge)
All Fruit
Side B Pellet
Bike
Charge Shot (Full Charge)
Clay Pigeon
Gunman



Pass Through (don't affect each other):

Water Shuriken full charge (anything less is beaten)
Thoron (Thunder is beaten)
Arcfire
F Smash
PK Flash
Laser
Laser
Laser
Needles
Din's Fire



Bounce Back (sends opposing projectile back towards user):

Can
Gordo
Volley Ball

*Every projectile not listed is beaten.

____________________

 

[The Seventh One]

I am really feeling it!

 

[Rohins]

Wifi match me bro

 

[Xyro77]

As soon as I get the console version I will. I refuse to buy the bad version so I only borrowed it for a week.

 

[the.tok]

I will be watching as I love playing with Samus, but she just seems to miss some tools. With your tips, we may get around her problems

 

[Los4Muros]

I hope you don't find me a stalker when I started to read your topics to see who you are. But after reading a bit I was a bit amazed with some of your conversations. I want to main Samus as well. After playing with her for a while, I think she has some potential. Just that now she fights with a whole new style. She's great in the air. Her Zair is still just as good as in Brawl when you get the hand of it. Missile Cancel isn't that important anymore and the lag produced from the missiles is less, so that's not much of a deal. But I'm sure you've heard about all this already.

Anyway, I'm looking forward to your videos and your discoveries with Samus. Most of the threads here have been abandoned or have few new information to be used as knowledge to the game. So I'm happy someone is willing to pick her up and teach the world how she's meant to be used. Personally I think she has a lot of potential and at the very least will become a Mid-Tier. And with patches confirmed to be coming, I think if she does need any adjustments she'll receive a few of them at the very least.

 

[Xyro77]

I hope you don't find me a stalker when I started to read your topics to see who you are. But after reading a bit I was a bit amazed with some of your conversations. I want to main Samus as well. After playing with her for a while, I think she has some potential. Just that now she fights with a whole new style. She's great in the air. Her Zair is still just as good as in Brawl when you get the hand of it. Missile Cancel isn't that important anymore and the lag produced from the missiles is less, so that's not much of a deal. But I'm sure you've heard about all this already.

Anyway, I'm looking forward to your videos and your discoveries with Samus. Most of the threads here have been abandoned or have few new information to be used as knowledge to the game. So I'm happy someone is willing to pick her up and teach the world how she's meant to be used. Personally I think she has a lot of potential and at the very least will become a Mid-Tier. And with patches confirmed to be coming, I think if she does need any adjustments she'll receive a few of them at the very least.

I guess ill use this as my "initial thoughts/rant pre-release of the game"


Missile canceling was pivotal to samus in both brawl and melee. It allowed for things like double missile, grabs, jabs, tilts, charge shots and more out of a very low lag missile move aka you could attack/grab/move almost immediately after a missile cancel (some tactics from missile cancels were dam near close to frame trap situations). In smash 4 that is gone so Samus firing a missile low or on the ground has very limited use for now (unless we find more things later). Remember, missiles can still be swatted away by many characters jabs/tilts and EASILY shield/ground dodged by all characters. Rolls in the game have been buffed to the max and thus most rolls are now faster than many character's run (obviously falcon/fox/sonic/speed shulk...etc are the exception) so missiles will play an even lesser role in this game....for now.

In brawl, my samus was famous for stay near and on the ledge. I developed ways to reduce/limit opponents options (except MK and GW) while i was near the ledge and thus won many matches i should not have. Fair or Uair from ledge lead to shield pokes to UP+B/jabs/ftilt/dsmash or a free escape route if the shield poke did not happen. In Smash 4, the new ledge mechanics (only allowing ONE ledge grab to be protected in invincibility) ruins that strategy that had worked for 6 years. So i am forced to play very dangerously near the ledge or stay away from it at all costs. This is a HUGE setback for me but i will over come it in time.

The few good things ive noticed is her jab 1 (2 still sucks but its usable), f-tilt, nair, UP+B and f-smash have all received an bonus when compared to brawl. Be it faster, more knockback or more range. Meaning she is more of a melee (hand to hand) character than the indirect combat character that she was in Brawl. This may also be an even bigger buff now that opponents cannot hold the L or R button as they land and power shield everything like they did in Brawl. Keeping fingers crossed on that.

Moving on, pivot smashes and tilts are game changers for some characters now. Samus may be one of them. I remember in brawl we tried to run away, shield and then buffer a turn around f-tilt.......yeah it didnt work too well but we were desparate to find SOMETHING lolololol. Smash 4 allows seamless pivot tilts so i THINK samus may get a small but tasty advantage from some well timed pivot tilts/fsmash with that C-stick.




As for initial advice on Smash 4, i throw out some basics that apply to every smash game including smash 4.

1. Take what you can get and dont be "greedy." If you land a grab, throw in 1-2 pummels and then throw. Don't try to get 4+ pummels because they could break out and punish you or escape. Meaning, dont try to be flashy because unlike sheik/greninja/diddy or any other current good character, you cannot afford to take the risk of messing up. Do what is safe and move on.

2. Play on EVERY STAGE that is tournament legal. If Brinstar is legal and you HATE it, play on it anyway. Playing on these stages will open up options for you that are not normally found on other "normal" stages. You can also learn to abuse stage hazards like lava (forces people to get to higher ground aka closer to the top blast zone so that you can kill easier) or the little bubble things/pillars (hit them to refresh your moves).....etc. Also, what if you HATE Jungle Japes but the opponent you are facing hates it more and it counters his character (water kills Olimar's pikmin for example). Why not take him to it? It could be the little nudge you need to take that game.

3. I will not be using custom moves and i recommend you do not either. TGC (my series), Ktar (keitaro's) and most likely Apex will be banning customs. Other series have already followed us and more will likely do the same. Learn "vanilla" Samus so that no matter what event you go to, you will be able to use Samus. I know many of you disagree with this but i strongly recommend it.

4. This sounds bad but please take what you have found/learned with Samus and share it with fellow Samus users. The more of us working on a character the more she will grow. I know many of us want to be "the best samus" but id much prefer to see Samus higher than low tier this generation. I think she is Mid mid tier or high mid tier but we will see.






Ill post more later but here is a bit^

 

[The Seventh One]

Hopefully there is no where to go but up from Brawl.

 

[n00b]

Welcome back

 

[EnGarde]

Hi! Would you be interested in some matches with a new player when the Wii U version comes out? Hmm, the skill imbalance will be pretty extreme, but I'm up to get squashed if it means I learn how to play more effectively.

I'll admit that most of the comparisons to prior Samus iterations fly right over my head. I've only ever played this version of Samus (3DS version), so I guess I'm lucky I don't know what I'm missing?

Since you haven't been playing the 3DS version, here's some things you maybe didn't know? Maybe these were in Brawl or whatever, but just in case...I'll share. ^_^ Nearly everything in this game has a visual or audio cue. Marth is a perfect example to test this with. When using his jab, there is a different sound effect used on hit when you land a sweetspot vs sourspot hit. So, the easiest way to test for sweetspots with a char is using your ears.

With Samus's F smash, there is a flame on the end of the gun, which represents the sweet spot. If you hit with that sweetspot, you'll know it, because your opponent will have a burning animation. That's another common cue I look for.

Morph bombs are an interesting example as well. I didn't realize this until my friend pointed this out to me yesterday, but the bombs actually start blinking when they become active (if your opponent hits the bomb while blinking, the bomb activates instantly, as opposed to just on timer). The animation is pretty subtle, but there; it's easier to see on the big power bombs.

Also, you can tell when the move you just used will guarantee a KO on the opponent, as the hit animation is slightly different than normal. There will be lines of black electricity in addition to the normal multi-colored animation of the hit. This seems to only apply when the char is not able to get out of hitstun prior to going off-screen, so gimps and chars like Little Mac that exit hitstun but have poor enough recovery that they can't get back to stage don't activate this animation.

That's all I can think of for now, apologies if you knew all this already! ^_^

EDIT: added whitespace to make it more readable.

 

[Xyro77]

Yes I'll play you (any of you) if the lag isn't too bad. I quit brawl wifi in year 2 because I couldn't stand it anymore.

The bomb thing is neat but I will be honest, bombs in brawl/smash 4 are EXTREMELY situational at best and I highly recommend not using them. You are left open for waaaaay too long when doing bombs.

And to be clear, I played the WiiU demo, 3ds demo and borrowed a 3ds for a week with the full version. Samus is held back greatly without a Z button and C-stick. Once I have those, I'll see what I can do.

 

[n00b]

Samus is held back greatly without a Z button and C-stick.

okay, it's not just me with these johns B)))

 

[EnGarde]

I thought bombs might have potential against big and slow chars in particular, as a defensive measure. What are your thoughts about this Japanese player's playstyle?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fC-NAuwq_4I
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G99HoeCbZoI

 

[Xyro77]

1. Lack of Samus MU knowledge.

2. Refusal to be patient.


Anybody who has ever played a brawl or smash 4 Samus knows that bombs are on a timer. Wait It out or simply move away. The vids you provide showed the enemy running in and Attacking while the bomb timer expired or simply did not know what to do with bombs.

 

[GdspdUblkprzdnt]

Welcome back Xyro. I got into smash about a year and a half ago through brawl and your input in the Samus forums helped me improve my game. I'm sad you doubted our lady initially but all's well that ends well.

On the topic of bombs, I'm experimenting with their use on the ledge. Planting one and charging an up smash covers every single ledge option your opponent has if timed right. This can be mixed up a number of ways. Dropping a bomb at your enemies roll distance and then short hopping to fair, uair, nair towards the edge may also work but isn't nearly as effective.

In the neutral, bombs are pretty much as limited as they were in Brawl though but I'll personally be on the look out for applications instead of being a defeatist about the downb.

 

[Sarix]

Glad to see you giving Samus a second chance Xyro. Out of curiosity, how do you feel about Samus's new Nair and its applications from what you've played?

This iteration of the character is definitely going to be more alien for her veteran players since she's less of a keepaway zoner and has to play a bit more like a hybrid with some rushdown now.

 

[Xyro77]

On the topic of bombs, I'm experimenting with their use on the ledge. Planting one and charging an up smash covers every single ledge option your opponent has if timed right. This can be mixed up a number of ways. Dropping a bomb at your enemies roll distance and then short hopping to fair, uair, nair towards the edge may also work but isn't nearly as effective.

In the neutral, bombs are pretty much as limited as they were in Brawl though but I'll personally be on the look out for applications instead of being a defeatist about the downb.

I'm not trying to be defeatist at all. However, since bombs turned out bad in ever smash game but Melee, it's hard to expect them to be anything but sub par. Most def test them but I recommend you use them sparingly because you are completely open to attack while dropping the bomb.

Glad to see you giving Samus a second chance Xyro. Out of curiosity, how do you feel about Samus's new Nair and its applications from what you've played?

This iteration of the character is definitely going to be more alien for her veteran players since she's less of a keepaway zoner and has to play a bit more like a hybrid with some rushdown now.

Samus's smash 4 version of Nair is far superior to the low knock back/low damage/short range Nair that she had in brawl. It will be useful in this game but I am unsure how to use it correctly as of now simply cause I do not have the WiiU version.

I gotta say though, the move I am most amped about is UP+B. It can kill and if it doesn't, it shoots the enemy far enough for you to be able to land safely every time. Also, People can't seem to DI it so that's an added plus. Over all it may be the best Up+B Samus has ever had in smash. We will see though

 

[GdspdUblkprzdnt]

I'm not trying to be defeatist at all. However, since bombs turned out bad in ever smash game but Melee, it's hard to expect them to be anything but sub par. Most def test them but I recommend you use them sparingly because you are completely open to attack while dropping the bomb.


Samus's smash 4 version of Nair is far superior to the low knock back/low damage/short range Nair that she had in brawl. It will be useful in this game but I am unsure how to use it correctly as of now simply cause I do not have the WiiU version.

I gotta say though, the move I am most amped about is UP+B. It can kill and if it doesn't, it shoots the enemy far enough for you to be able to land safely every time. Also, People can't seem to DI it so that's an added plus. Over all it may be the best Up+B Samus has ever had in smash. We will see though

I wasn't claiming you were, man. It's just a common sentiment I was addressing.

 

[DoubtComplex]

I definitely agree with the sentiment that samus is at worst a Mid+ character, her flexible tools/gameplans merit that much alone. In these games it always seems best to have 2-3 characters under your belt and Samus is always in the rotation for me cause she just always has the ability to shut down certain characters and stubborn players in general, i really only worry about getting overrun by speed/infighters as usual.

Anyway I hope to see a lot more when the wiiu version drops, if there's a simple way to get video from WIIU>PC i'll be posting more too.

 

[GdspdUblkprzdnt]

s

I definitely agree with the sentiment that samus is at worst a Mid+ character, her flexible tools/gameplans merit that much alone. In these games it always seems best to have 2-3 characters under your belt and Samus is always in the rotation for me cause she just always has the ability to shut down certain characters and stubborn players in general, i really only worry about getting overrun by speed/infighters as usual.

Anyway I hope to see a lot more when the wiiu version drops, if there's a simple way to get video from WIIU>PC i'll be posting more too.

Perhaps a little out of place but speaking of infighters, how do you feel about Cpt. Falcon? I have pretty awesome friendlies with a falcon main and he feels samus actually has the advantage in that one. Can't say I agree as I feel it's neutral at best for Samus.

 

[Beard Hawk]

I reckon Samus has the best ledge game in Sm4sh. She always has options on the ledge. If they are far away you can shoot them, if they are close you can use any of your air moves, screw attack surprises anyone who tries to stomp you off, if you want to return to the stage or continue shooting them you have the air-grapple to push them back (also destroys some projectiles). I recon Rosalina could also turn out to be a ledge-end.

Sometimes when I screw attack, the first hit connects, then the middle ones all miss, but then the last hit connects as well. Vectoring can only save them a few %, they still get the knockback.

I don't care if Samus is low on the tier lists. In fact, Samus has never attracted much attention and that helps keep her matchup in the dark. The less anyone is threatened by her on the tier lists, the more we can surprise them at tournaments.

 

[Dropkick Laser]

I've always been all for seeing low-tiers do well. So go for it! Show them why Samus can still fight with her clothes on!

 

[DoubtComplex]

s



Perhaps a little out of place but speaking of infighters, how do you feel about Cpt. Falcon? I have pretty awesome friendlies with a falcon main and he feels samus actually has the advantage in that one. Can't say I agree as I feel it's neutral at best for Samus.

Personally i think samus has the upper hand just because she wins or goes even in neutral and falcon only has one gameplan. Of course captain falcon isn't helpless or anything but if samus is playing low risk then cpt.falcon has to at least match the samus players patience to land hits. 6-4 Samus' favor imo.

I know this isn't the MU thread but i'd love to hear opinions on it, my experience is limited.

 

[Beard Hawk]

Personally i think samus has the upper hand just because she wins or goes even in neutral and falcon only has one gameplan. Of course captain falcon isn't helpless or anything but if samus is playing low risk then cpt.falcon has to at least match the samus players patience to land hits. 6-4 Samus' favor imo.

I know this isn't the MU thread but i'd love to hear opinions on it, my experience is limited.

Yeah, I agree with you. Samus isn't bad at close-quarters, so when Falcon finally gets in Samus can deal with him a bit.

 

[Uffe]

On a positive note, at least she can KO better this time around. I agree that the edge hog removal is stupid. I'm trying to use her.

 

[GdspdUblkprzdnt]

I reckon Samus has the best ledge game in Sm4sh. She always has options on the ledge. If they are far away you can shoot them, if they are close you can use any of your air moves, screw attack surprises anyone who tries to stomp you off, if you want to return to the stage or continue shooting them you have the air-grapple to push them back (also destroys some projectiles). I recon Rosalina could also turn out to be a ledge-end.

Sometimes when I screw attack, the first hit connects, then the middle ones all miss, but then the last hit connects as well. Vectoring can only save them a few %, they still get the knockback.

I don't care if Samus is low on the tier lists. In fact, Samus has never attracted much attention and that helps keep her matchup in the dark. The less anyone is threatened by her on the tier lists, the more we can surprise them at tournaments.

Haha what an awesome way to look at it. Having her matchup in the dark is a great upper hand.

 

[Xyro77]

Paid off my Smash 4+Controller+adapter+Amiibo bundle. I am ready

 

[camzaman]

Why the heck would people ban customs? That's just plain stupid. They help more characters to be viable. It's just lazy to ban them outright. Allow them and ban on a case by case basis if something is too imba (which I highly doubt)

 

[Xyro77]

Why the heck would people ban customs? That's just plain stupid. They help more characters to be viable. It's just lazy to ban them outright. Allow them and ban on a case by case basis if something is too imba (which I highly doubt)

Regardless of the reason (some good some bad) many many TOs, including well known ones, are banning them for now. Having said that, it's a safe move to use real Samus over custom Samus in case you attend a custom banned event.

 

[A2ZOMG]

1. Lack of Samus MU knowledge.

2. Refusal to be patient.


Anybody who has ever played a brawl or smash 4 Samus knows that bombs are on a timer. Wait It out or simply move away. The vids you provide showed the enemy running in and Attacking while the bomb timer expired or simply did not know what to do with bombs.

That's why Bombs are really good though. They discourage enemies from running towards Samus before they explode, which keeps your opponents where you want them to be, in mid range where Samus has many options to control the game. This is exactly how I saw the Samus player using Bombs. Either reactively to a commitment (very strong against aggressive juggle attempts for instance), or as a way to set up space for Z-air/Charge Shot pressure.

So when you say that the counter to bombs is staying away from them, you have to realize that this falls into other parts of Samus's gameplan.

I think the main problem with Smash 4 Samus is she's heavily reliant on a few specific good moves to be effective, and one of them is basically Charge Shot, and her Jab still isn't safe on hit at low percents without Bombs to cover it. Samus with a consistently safe on hit Jab would be really strong, imo.

 

[Xyro77]

None of that bomb stuff worked in Brawl and unless it's different in smash 4, Im not seeing it going to happen here. I hope I'm wrong though. I REALLY hope I am.

 

[Conda]

1. Lack of Samus MU knowledge.

2. Refusal to be patient.


Anybody who has ever played a brawl or smash 4 Samus knows that bombs are on a timer. Wait It out or simply move away. The vids you provide showed the enemy running in and Attacking while the bomb timer expired or simply did not know what to do with bombs.

That's the point though. (edit: @ A2ZOMG beat me to it )
Bombs force patience. It's like tossing an arcfire or fire arrow or can - you force a shield and patience. Most of those bombs don't hit - skip past the initial ganondorf fight and you'll see enemy players avoiding the bombs but being put in disadvantageous positions as a result, or backing off as a result. Both good for Samus.

Why the heck would people ban customs? That's just plain stupid. They help more characters to be viable. It's just lazy to ban them outright. Allow them and ban on a case by case basis if something is too imba (which I highly doubt)

It's only for the first few big tournaments, customs are on their way to be legalized afterwards. I'd get used to customs if that's what you like, unless you want to go to these specific bigger tournaments that are banning customs just due to the high number of setups and lack of complete unlocks on all of the setups.

That's why Bombs are really good though. They discourage enemies from running towards Samus before they explode, which keeps your opponents where you want them to be, in mid range where Samus has many options to control the game. This is exactly how I saw the Samus player using Bombs. Either reactively to a commitment (very strong against aggressive juggle attempts for instance), or as a way to set up space for Z-air/Charge Shot pressure.

So when you say that the counter to bombs is staying away from them, you have to realize that this falls into other parts of Samus's gameplan.

I think the main problem with Smash 4 Samus is she's heavily reliant on a few specific good moves to be effective, and one of them is basically Charge Shot, and her Jab still isn't safe on hit at low percents without Bombs to cover it. Samus with a consistently safe on hit Jab would be really strong, imo.

Good post, clear you've done some research and have knowledge about Smash 4 samus.

She has many Brawl-esque 'broken' moves, like uair and usmash, that simply don't connect all of the time and are not reliable. These moves have been fixed for the whole cast basically, except Samus. The dev team clearly sees her strengths are strong enough in other areas to warrant these flimsy setbacks to many of her moves.

Zair is likely part of that reason, charge shot another. They aren't amazing, but they are good in Smash 4's engine. Same goes for bombs - I think they are great. Not super powerful and not a move that alone makes Samus viable, but having a bomb out makes Samus safer than not having one out. This is partly why I like both the default and the large bomb - they have presence and you retain the movement mobility from the bomb drop. And that movement mobility from the drop is another super useful aspect of her bombs. Use it as mobility or a retreat and you'll realise that Samus has interesting movement options.

Yes, this is 'old stuff'. But she was balanced in a way that forces us to actually utilize these abilities to their fullest. No more missile cancelling, similar to how Falco can no longer rely on chaingrabs and short hop laser tricks. The devs are forcing us to use characters to their full potential, rather than find a few exploitable mechanics within them and make that their metagame. Samus may not be bulletproof in her design - she has many weak spots and weirdly flimsy moves. But she is solid if you adapt all of her options into your playstyle and use her to her actual full potential.


Her missiles suck, but we have to stop seeing projectiles in Smash 4 as 'they have to hit to be useful!'. They don't. Tossing out projectiles against aerial opponents forces either an attack or airdodge, and if they are close to the ground they will get endlag as a result most of the time (unless they kill your projectile with a low-landing-lag attack). You have to utilize this endlag.

Slow missiles are good for this reason, though the normal reasons are slow enough to still be useful and force reactions by your opponent. Yeah, that's what all projectiles do. It's not groundbreaking stuff, but it is a solid projectile. Yeah, it can be dodged and attacked and punished due to endlag if you use it too close - that's how basically all projectiles are in Smash 4. It doesn't mean it is not a useful tool. It simply makes us not rely on it. They are great for forcing approaches - heck, charging charge shot is good at forcing approaches. So get approached and deal with it by doing what Samus can do.

Drop a bomb and retreat, and react to your opponent's reaction. If they are VERY good, then they will bluff their reaction and react to your reaction. They will have to do this against a good Samus, yet it is a tricky thing to do since it's such a specific instance. Samus has the ability to put their opponent in awkward situations like this, similar to DH.

You can see the japanese player do this in the videos posted above (which are from a different thread in this forum). The western Samuses I've seen don't utilize things like uair OOS, or bomb retreats, or zair tether cancels, or whatnot. The reason is likely because there aren't many Samus mains here - many people play Samus as a side-character, and thus haven't fully integrated Samus's quirks into their playstyle. Instead they try conventional projectile play, or conventional approach play, or conventional punish play. Tossing around charge shots, haphazard zairs, missile spam, etc.

Samus' metagame is at it's infancy now. She has room to grow and be an adaptable low-weaknesses character due to her ability to pressure her opponents. The only difference now is she can't pressure by simply spamming missiles and the like, or even spamming zair. You've got to mix it up and be much more liquid and mobile.

 

[EarthBoundRules]

Wait, Samus is a lesbian?

 

[Xyro77]

Wait, Samus is a lesbian?

Yep. 110% confirmed.

 

[EarthBoundRules]

So I don't have a shot?

 

[Xyro77]

So I don't have a shot?

Sorry, man. Samus is not into males.



Edit: more and more "nerfs" are being found in smash wiiu. I wonder if Samus has gotten any?

 

[EnGarde]

1. Lack of Samus MU knowledge.

2. Refusal to be patient.


Anybody who has ever played a brawl or smash 4 Samus knows that bombs are on a timer. Wait It out or simply move away. The vids you provide showed the enemy running in and Attacking while the bomb timer expired or simply did not know what to do with bombs.

If one of the best Samus players tells me that bombs are useless, I'll defer to expert opinion. But before I do, I want to make sure we're seeing the same match. To be clear:

A bomb starts to blink. It is now active. If the opponent hits it while it is blinking, it will go off instantly, and not just on timer. Is this the same as in Brawl? Because based on the language used around the forum, I don't think it is. Please let me know. Not trying to be a jerk, just trying to understand.

With this in mind, when I see the matches I linked earlier, I see that many of the bombs activate early to punish the opponent going for attacks. Not the edge trap ones the Samus uses while the opponent is recovering, but the other ones, especially against bowser and ganondorf. Though, yeah, I could see that being a beginner's mistake when facing off against a good Samus for the first time. -.-

---

Also, has this made its way here yet? http://smashboards.com/threads/at-zledge-boost.378499/

 

[Xyro77]

This was settled in brawl and it appears to be the same in smash 4......bombs are on a timer. It's not proximity like it was in MELEE.



Let me be clear: I am not here to shoot down any ideas. I am simply coming from 2 years of Melee samus experience and 6 years of brawl Samus exp (4 of which was at the highest level).

In my 6 years of brawl experience, every time a foe was hit by bombs, it was because he or she was not familiar with the MU or was too impatient in regards to waiting for the bomb timer to expire.

Having played people who know the MU I can tell you that if they are smart they will stay slightly out of samus f-tilt range and thus if a bomb is ever dropped they can and will Attack during/after the bomb dropping animation AND wait out the timer because Samus does NOT have a tool that MAKES the foe approach after a bomb is out. Especially since power shielding/rolling is so strong in brawl/smash 4.

Some of you think dropping a bomb and forcing the opponent to wait is part of the "Samus plan" but realistically, it's totally not.......in brawl that is. The enemy is always at the advantage assuming he/she had the % advantave. But this is Smash 4 so If smash 4 is different, Id love to be proven wrong. I BEG you all to prove me wrong because at the end of the day we make Samus better.


As for the tech with Zair, I see little use for it other than freaking out the for for a second or two. Very cool though.

 

[EnGarde]

The bomb activates instantly on contact with screw attack, well in advance of the timer end, at 1:30 and 1:35. I tested this extensively with my friend playing as Marth, which sadly, he could swat the bomb with his blade and activate it without taking damage. The effect is even easier to see when used on the power bomb custom (down 3), since the timer is significantly longer than on regular bombs. Unfortunately, the replays were lost when I upgraded with the patch, but I'll get my friend to help me re-record footage post-patch to demonstrate the effect tomorrow.

I'll totally defer to MU and strategy knowledge, as I'm not a very good player yet. But I do know the basic mechanic of bombs, and this is that they explode when hit by an attack. Not by proximity, but strictly on hit. You're right, though: there's no way to force your opponent to actually USE an attack, so they can space themselves accordingly. I'm not sure how they could apply at higher levels of play.

 

[cox1121]

can someone please tell how to do the zair ledge canceling as shown in the video of the Japanese player that was previously posted. I've scoured a bit and can't find any info on it.....thanks in advance