The Great Fairy Fountain Research Thread

[KayLo!]

The Great Fairy Fountain Research Thread

This thread is for researching and discussing the technical aspects of Zelda. If you have any ideas about techniques or would like to request for something to be tested, feel free to ask or contribute!

Credit goes to Kataefi, hotgarbage, NinjaLink, and others who have helped research, pull frame data, and further develop Zelda's metagame.

[COLLAPSE=Current Projects & Requests]- Shield Pokes (Kataefi/KayLo!)
- Nair vs. other aerials (AL)
- Move priority (3x)
- Jab infinite? (Mars)[/COLLAPSE]

TABLE OF CONTENTS
( To skip to a section, Ctrl + F and search for its 4-letter code. )
Section 1: Frame & Hitbubble Data [FRME]

1.1 Ground Moves [GRND]
1.2 Aerial Moves [AERL]
1.3 Specials [SPCL]
1.4 Ledge Moves [LDGE]
1.5 Tech & Trip Moves [TCHM]
1.6 Item Moves [ITMM]​

Section 2: Miscellaneous Data & Techniques [MSCL]

2.1 Dtilt Followups / Dtilt Lock [DTLT]
2.2 Landing Nair Followups [NEUA]
2.3 Love Jumping & Nayru's Momentum Cancel [NYRU]
2.4 Dthrow Spike [DSPK]
2.5 Grab Release Infinite (Wario only) [GINF]
2.6 Glide Toss Breakdown [GLDT]​

Section 1: Frame & Hitbubble Data [FRME]

*Visible Hitbubble Thread: http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=8904458&postcount=61

Hitbox Active: Frames during which an attack's hitboxes are active.
FAF (First Actionable Frame): First frame on which you can perform another move.
Invincibility: Frames during which Zelda will take no damage.
Fresh Damage: Fresh damage values for each hit.
Trip Rate: Chance, by percent, for a move to trip. Will only be noted for values higher than 0.
Landing Lag: Aerials only. Number of frames Zelda lags when she hits the ground during a move.
Autocancel: Aerials only. Frames during which Zelda can land without an aerial move's landing lag. (She will instead suffer normal jump landing lag.)
Advantage on Block: Frame difference between Zelda's FAF and the opponent's. Counted from first hit frame per damage value.​

1.1 Ground Moves [GRND]

Spoiler

Jab
Hitbox Active: 11, 13, 15 (3 hits)
FAF: 24
Fresh Damage: 2.1, 2.1, 2.1
Advantage on Block: -8, -6, -4 (normal shield drop) / -15, -13, -11 (jump/grab oos)

Dash Attack
Hitbox Active: 6-13
FAF: 38
Fresh Damage: 12.6/9.45 (frames 6-8), 8.4/7.35 (frames 9-13) (more damage closer to Zelda)
Advantage on Block: -25, -22/-23 (normal shield drop) / -32, -29/-30 (jump/grab oos)

Ftilt (all angles)
Hitbox Active: 12-14
FAF: 40
Fresh Damage: 11.55/12.6/13.65 (less damage closer to Zelda)
Advantage on Block: -16 (normal shield drop) / -23 (jump/grab oos)

Utilt
Hitbox Active: 10-24
FAF: 48
Fresh Damage: 11.55
Advantage on Block: -31 (normal shield drop) / -38 (jump/grab oos)

Dtilt
Hitbox Active: 5-11
FAF: 25
Fresh Damage: 8.4/7.35 (more damage closer to Zelda)
Trip Rate: 40%
Advantage on Block: -9/-10 (normal shield drop) / -16/-17 (jump/grab oos)

Fsmash
Hitbox Active: 16, 18, 20, 22, 24 (5 hits)
From Charge, Hits On: 6
FAF: 40
Fresh Damage: 1.05, 1.05, 1.05, 1.05, 13.65
Advantage on Block: -16, -14, -12, -10, -9 (normal shield drop) / -23, -21, -19, -17, -16 (jump/grab oos)

Usmash
Hitbox Active: 6, 8, 10, 12, 14, 16, 23, 25, 27, 29, 31 (11 hits)
From Charge, Hits On: 3
FAF: 57
Fresh Damage: 1.05, 1.05, 1.05, 1.05, 1.05, 1.05, 1.05, 1.05, 1.05, 1.05, 5.25
Advantage on Block (first 10 hits): -42, -40, -38, -36, -34, -32, -25, -23, -21, -19 (normal shield drop) / -49, -47, -45, -43, -41, -39, -32, -30, -28, -26 (jump/grab oos)
Advantage on Block (final hit): -20 (normal shield drop) / -27 (jump/grab oos)

Dsmash
Hitbox Active: 4-6, 12-14 (2 hits)
From Charge, Hits On: 3
FAF: 40
Invincibility: 4-14 (right leg and knee only)
Fresh Damage: 12.6, 10.5
Trip Rate: 30%
Advantage on Block: -24, -17 (normal shield drop) / -31, -24 (jump/grab oos)

Standing Grab
Hitbox Active: 12-13
FAF: 30

Dash Grab
Hitbox Active: 11-12
FAF: 40

Pivot Grab
Hitbox Active: 14-15
FAF: 36

Grab Pummel
Hitbox Active: 7
Fresh Damage: 3.15

Shield
Active On: 1
Shield Drop: 7 frames

Spotdodge
Invincibility: 2-20
Total Duration: 25 frames

Forward/Backward Roll
Invincibility: 4-19
Total Duration: 31 frames

Taunts
Up Taunt FAF: 80
Side Taunt FAF: 110
Down Taunt FAF: 100​

1.2 Aerial Moves [AERL]

Spoiler

Nair
Hitbox Active: 6-7, 10-11, 14-15, 18-19, 22-23 (5 hits)
FAF: 50
Fresh Damage: 2.1, 2.1, 2.1, 2.1, 5.25
Landing Lag: 12 frames
Autocancel: 1-5, 38-49
Advantage on Block: -36, -32, -28, -24, -22 (normal shield drop) / -43, -39, -35, -31, -29 (jump/grab oos) (does not include landing lag)

Fair
Hitbox Active: 8-12
FAF: 40
Fresh Damage: 4.2/21 (more damage at toe; sweetspot active on frame 8 only)
Landing Lag: 22 frames
Autocancel: 1-7, 25-39
Advantage on Block: -23/-33 (normal shield drop) / -30/-40 (jump/grab oos) (does not include landing lag)

Bair
Hitbox Active: 5-8
FAF: 36
Fresh Damage: 4.2/21 (more damage at toe; sweetspot active on frame 5 only)
Landing Lag: 22 frames
Autocancel: 1-4, 26-35
Advantage on Block: -22/-32 (normal shield drop) / -29/-39 (jump/grab oos) (does not include landing lag)

Uair
Hitbox Active: 14-16
FAF: 55
Fresh Damage: 15.75
Landing Lag: 22 frames
Autocancel: 1-13
Advantage on Block: -29 (normal shield drop) / -36 (jump/grab oos) (does not include landing lag)

Dair
Hitbox Active: 14-24
FAF: 45
Fresh Damage: 16.8 (frame 14), 5.25/4.2 (frames 15-24)
Landing Lag: 21 frames
Autocancel: 40-44
Advantage on Block: -24, -21 (normal shield drop) / -31, -28 (jump/grab oos) (does not include landing lag)

Jump
Jump Squat Duration: 6 frames (to short hop, hold jump for 6 or less frames; to full hop, hold jump for 7 or more frames)
Note: Jump squat frames can be canceled into a usmash or an up b.

Short Hop Air Time: 44 frames
Full Hop Air Time: 68 frames

Soft Landing: 2 frames
Hard Landing: 4 frames

Airdodge
Invincibility: 4-29
Total Duration: 49 frames​

1.3 Specials [SPCL]

Spoiler

Nayru's Love
Hitbox Active: 13, 16, 19, 22, 25, 28 (6 hits)
FAF: 60
Invincibility: 5-12
Reflects: 5-42
Fresh Damage: 1.05/2.1/1.05 (first 5 hits), 5.25/4.2/3.15 (final hit)
Advantage on Block: -39, -36, -33, -30, -27, -23 (normal shield drop) / -46, -43, -40, -37, -34, -30 (jump/grab oos)

Din's Fire
Startup: 22 frames
Max Hold Duration: 55 frames
Endlag: 34 frames
Hitbox Active: ?
Fresh Damage: ?
Advantage on Block: ?

Farore's Wind (Part 1)
Hitbox Active: 11-12
Disappears On: 34
Fresh Damage: 6.3
Advantage on Block: -13 (normal shield drop) / -20 (jump/grab oos)

Farore's Wind (Part 2)
Hitbox Active: 1-2
FAF: 30
Fresh Damage: 6.3
Advantage on Block: -19 (normal shield drop) / -26 (jump/grab oos)​

1.4 Ledge Moves [LDGE]

Spoiler

Ledge Grab
Invincibility: 1-46 (invincibility can carry over into ledge drop actions)
FAF: 24 (for ledge attack, roll, or jump) / 26 (for ledge drop or climb)
Note: Zelda must wait at least 30 frames after releasing the ledge before she can re-grab it.

Ledge Attack <100%
Hitbox Active: 27-32
FAF: 54
Invincibility: 1-25
Fresh Damage: 6.3
Advantage on Block: -17 (normal shield drop) / -24 (jump/grab oos)

Ledge Attack >100%
Hitbox Active: 34-37
FAF: 70
Invincibility: 1-37
Fresh Damage: 8.4/10.5 (less damage closer to Zelda)
Advantage on Block: -25 (normal shield drop) / -32 (jump/grab oos)

Ledge Climb <100%
Invincibility: 1-30
FAF: 34

Ledge Climb >100%
Invincibility: 1-55
FAF: 60

Ledge Roll <100%
Invincibility: 1-29
FAF: 51

Ledge Roll >100%
Invincibility: 1-52
FAF: 80

Ledge Jump <100%
Invincibility: 1-10
FAF: 11

Ledge Jump >100%
Invincibility: 1-20
FAF: 21​

1.5 Tech & Trip Moves [TCHM]

Spoiler

Tech
Invincibility: 1-21
FAF: 27

Tech Roll Forward
Invincibility:
FAF: 42
Roll Length: 48.79 (units unknown)

Tech Roll Backward
Invincibility:
FAF: 42
Roll Length: 48.8 (units unknown)

Flop
FAF: 27

Stand (Back/Stomach)
Invincibility: 1-19
FAF: 30

Get Up Attack (Back)
Hitbox Active: 17-19, 25-27 (2 hits)
FAF: 50
Invincibility: 1-27
Fresh Damage: 6.3, 6.3
Advantage on Block: -23, -15 (normal shield drop) / -30, -22 (jump/grab oos)

Get Up Attack (Stomach)
Hitbox Active: 17-18, 25-26 (2 hits)
FAF: 50
Invincibility: 1-26
Fresh Damage: 6.3, 6.3/8.4 (less damage closer to Zelda)
Advantage on Block: -23, -15/-14 (normal shield drop) / -30, -22/-21 (jump/grab oos)

Get Up Roll Forward/Backward (Back/Stomach)
Invincibility: 1-20
FAF: 36

Dash Trip
Duration:

Forced Trip
Duration:

Trip Get Up
Invincibility: 1-17
FAF: 22

Trip Get Up Attack
Hitbox Active: 19-20, 27-28 (2 hits)
FAF: 50
Invincibility: 1-8
Fresh Damage: 5.25, 5.25
Advantage on Block: -22, -14 (normal shield drop) / -29, -21 (jump/grab oos)

Trip Roll Forward/Backward
Invincibility: 1-10
FAF: 29​

1.6 Item Moves [ITMM]

Spoiler

Item Pick Up/Drop
Pick Up:
Drop:

Forward Toss (Ground)
Item Thrown On:
FAF:

Back Toss (Ground)
Item Thrown On:
FAF:

Up Toss (Ground)
Item Thrown On:
FAF:

Down Toss (Ground)
Item Thrown On:
FAF:

Dash Toss
Item Thrown On:
FAF:

Forward Toss (Air)
Item Thrown On:
FAF:

Back Toss (Air)
Item Thrown On:
FAF:

Up Toss (Air)
Item Thrown On:
FAF:

Down Toss (Air)
Item Thrown On:
FAF:​

Section 2: Miscellaneous Data & Techniques [MSCL]

2.1 Dtilt Followups / Dtilt Lock [DTLT]

When it connects, dtilt leads to one of three situations for the opponent:

- Grounded stun
- Trip
- Pop up​

Grounded Stun

At low-mid percentages, the opponent will go into a flinch animation when hit with dtilt. Various factors affect how long their hitstun will last, including their weight, their damage, and how stale dtilt is. (Lighter weight, more damage, and a fresher dtilt all lead to greater hitstun.)

On average, dtilt starts to give Zelda a usable frame advantage at ~50%.

Frame advantage for a fresh dtilt at 50%:
+4: Bowser; Donkey Kong
+5: Mario; Luigi; Yoshi; Wario; Link; Ganondorf; Samus; ROB; King Dedede; Wolf; Lucario; Ike; Snake; Captain Falcon; Ivysaur; Charizard
+6: Peach; Diddy Kong; Zelda; Sheik; Toon Link; Ice Climbers; Pit; Olimar; Falco; Marth; Ness; Lucas; Sonic
+7: Zero Suit Samus; Kirby; Meta Knight; Fox; Pikachu; G&W; Squirtle
+8: Jigglypuff

Good followup options at this point are:

- Dsmash (frame 4)
- Dtilt/Dtilt Lock (frame 5)
- Dash Attack (frame 6)
- Usmash (frame 6; from close range dtilt only)​

At around 50%+, you can begin to dtilt lock your opponent.* Dtilt stales as the other character's damage rises; the resulting balance gives you a continuous frame advantage that lasts until they begin to pop up. Keep in mind that they can still SDI away from you, which may prematurely end the lock (and makes the term "lock" a bit of a misnomer for this technique).

*Note: Samus and DK cannot be locked due to their flinch animations.

Trip

Zelda's dtilt has a trip rate of 40%, making it fairly reliable for setting up strong punishes. The frame advantage on an opponent's trip from dtilt is always +19 frames. Obviously this gives you a lot of options for followups:

Fsmash, dsmash, usmash, jab, dash attack, dtilt, ftilt, grab, part 1 of Farore's Wind, and Nayru's Love are all guaranteed on any tripped opponent.

Turnaround > platform drop > sweetspot bair is guaranteed on everyone on a platform.​

The following attacks are limited to specific characters:

SH sweetspot fair:
SH sweetspot bair: ​

You also have the option of reading your opponent's trip reaction (get up, roll, etc.), which gives you a chance to LK smaller characters.

Pop Up

At a certain percent (determined by weight and dtilt decay), characters begin to pop into the air from dtilt. This takes away Zelda's frame advantage, but it still leads into usmash/utilt fairly reliably. If the opponent DIs to the side, dash attack can usually reach them before they can attack or jump out of the way. Stale dtilts and larger/heavier characters are better for pop up followups, as the opponent will not be knocked as far and may still be frame trapped.

[COLLAPSE=Fresh dtilt pop up percentages for each character]Bowser: 88%
Captain Falcon: 81%
Charizard: 84%
Diddy Kong: 76%
Donkey Kong: 87%
Falco: 72%
Fox: 71%
Game & Watch: 69%
Ganondorf: 84%
Ice Climbers: 76%
Ike: 82%
Ivysaur: 79%
Jigglypuff: 66%
King Dedede: 85%
Kirby: 71%
Link: 82%
Lucario: 80%
Lucas: 77%
Luigi: 78%
Mario: 79%
Marth: 74%
Meta Knight: 71%
Ness: 77%
Olimar: 72%
Peach: 75%
Pikachu: 71%
Pit: 77%
ROB: 82%
Samus: 83%
Sheik: 73%
Snake: 85%
Sonic: 78%
Squirtle: 69%
Toon Link: 76%
Wario: 83%
Wolf: 81%
Yoshi: 83%
Zelda: 73%
Zero Suit Samus: 71%[/COLLAPSE]2.2 Landing Nair Followups [NEUA]

Nair is a multihit move with 5 hits, the first four having very low knockback and growth so that they send a grounded opponent at a guaranteed angle and distance every time. This means that at any given damage, with conscious positioning, you can rely on the first four hits of nair to put your opponent in a certain spot.

There are four possible trajectories from nair's initial hits:

• Low trajectory A
• Low trajectory B
• Straight up
• Straight down

The trajectory you produce depends on two things: how many hits of nair connect and your position relative to your opponent. It can be difficult to be consistent with these in a real match, but with practice, you can learn to anticipate your results more accurately.

Low trajectories come in two types, both of which are ideal. Type A launches the other player through your body horizontally, more or less parallel to the ground. It forces a hard landing and gives Zelda a +32 frame advantage. Type B sends the opponent at a low angle above your head; although it doesn't force a landing (they can jump or airdodge just before touching the ground), it gives Zelda a +28 frame advantage nonetheless.

Followups from low trajectories are guaranteed if you make the correct read. Favored options include usmash, dash grab, dash attack, dsmash, dtilt, and buffered LKs (on larger characters).

It is also possible to send the opponent straight up or straight down, the second of which is a weak spike. Unfortunately, little has been tested about how to force these trajectories. ​

2.3 Love Jumping & Nayru's Momentum Cancel [NYRU]

Love Jumping
Under normal circumstances, Nayru's immediately stops Zelda's momentum, but it can actually do the opposite when performed out of hitstun. Love Jumping is when you use the momentum of a jump out of hitstun to give Nayru's a significant vertical boost.

How to perform:

- As you leave hitstun, jump + perform Nayru's​

The result:

Zelda will perform Nayru's, but she will fly upwards while doing so.​

The benefits of using this technique are questionable, but note that it can be done with Farore's Wind and Transform as well. The size of the vertical boost changes with the special, but it can serve as a way to recover or transform more safely.

• Original reference thread: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=169987
• Video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8djTa_wHqtE (Note: the instructions in this video contain some errors.)

Nayru's Momentum Cancel
Because Nayru's reacts so strongly with momentum, it can be used as a method of momentum canceling, allowing Zelda to live slightly longer than usual without using her second jump. Note that improper execution of this technique can launch you past the blastzone, so if you're not sure you can do it right, it's better to not even try.

How to perform:

- As you leave hitstun, fastfall bair; then,
- B-reverse Nayru's Love (input Nayru's, then hold reverse direction with the control stick -- towards the blastzone -- by frame 4)​

The result:

Zelda will perform Nayru's in the opposite direction (facing towards the blastzone), and her momentum will reverse to push her slightly back towards the stage.​

The timing is fairly strict, but it's doable with practice.

• Original reference thread: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=240920
• Video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S6V4HDXpFIo

2.4 Dthrow Spike [DSPK]

Some characters can be spiked with dthrow on certain stages, though it requires that they are thrown from being held over the ledge. The reason it works is that, depending on the opposing character's body shape, dthrow knocks the opponent into the underside of the ledge and stage spikes or semi-spikes them.

The following stages have been tested, and the technique is confirmed to work on the listed characters:

Battlefield: (right ledge only), (right ledge only), (right ledge only), (both ledges)
Smashville: (right ledge only), (right ledge only)
Frigate Orpheon: (left ledge only, transformation with moving platform)
Castle Siege: (right ledge only, third transformation)​

The technique has been confirmed not to work on the following stages: Lylat Cruise, Pokémon Stadium 1, Yoshi's Island (Brawl), Rainbow Cruise

Though very situational and rather weak knockback-wise, dthrow spiking puts the characters it works on in a very disadvantageous position. Even if they tech, you will be able to edgeguard from a safe position; many times it is possible to land a dair spike.

• Original reference thread: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=242033
• Videos: Battlefield Demo 1 (Mario to Lucas); Battlefield Demo 2 (MK to PT); Battlefield Demo 3 (ICs to ROB) + additional testing; miscellaneous testing

2.5 Grab Release Infinite (Wario only) [GINF]

When Wario breaks from Zelda's grab, he's forced to air release unless he breaks during a pummel. On his air release, Zelda has a +21 frame advantage, during which she can do a number of things: sweetspot fair (the most popular choice), sweetspot dair, usmash, or any other action that takes 21 frames or less.

One viable option for this advantage is to walk forward a bit and grab Wario again, giving her a grab release infinite on him as long as there are no obstacles (platforms, major slopes, etc.) in the way. At higher percentages, a pummel per grab can be added for extra damage; however, this is not advised at low percentages, as Wario will ground release if he breaks during a pummel.

Besides the potential damage from pummels, walking with the GR infinite allows you to carry Wario closer to the edge of the stage, which can set up for a spike or earlier fair kill. Note that in most cases, it is probably more worth it to simply attack him out of the first grab release.

2.6 Glide Toss Breakdown [GLDT]

Glide tossing is a technique that allows you to slide a noticeable distance as you throw an item. Though Zelda can't spawn any items of her own, it can be useful in matchups where the other character can (Diddy, Peach, etc.).

How to perform:

- Input roll in the direction you want to slide; then,
- Input item toss in any direction on the appropriate frame

Throwing the item on frame 1 of Zelda's roll results in a super glide toss (~half the length of FD).
Throwing the item on frames 2-4 of Zelda's roll results in a short glide toss.​

The result:

Zelda will slide while throwing the item.​

Because you can vary both the direction you slide and the direction you throw the item, glide tossing is useful as a mixup and as a way to string into other moves from an item throw.

 

[KayLo!]

Lost motivation for the guide, so after partially finishing it, I dropped it off to Kataefi and moved onto what I honestly enjoy doing: research. Right now there's not much new stuff, but all of Zelda's basic moves (apart from Din's) have accurate frame data now, and the rest will be filled in over time.

A few changes off the top of my head:

- Fixed Nayru's IFs. It has invincibility from 5-12, not 5-11.
- Basic frame data for all her core moves are done. Except Din's Fire, because it's a ***** to figure out.
- "Autocanceled" nair combos are now called landing nair combos. Because nair isn't autocanceling, it just has low landing lag.
- Move elements added. Not important, but now you know what not to use against some of Oli's pikmin. =X
- I've been spelling Nayru's wrong since the dawn of time. -__________-

@Kata: I dunno what you decided as far as stickying this, but I don't think it's necessary.

& yes, I stole the picture I was gonna use for the guide. I have others if you wanna replace the guide one.

 

[Kataefi]

Aboot frikken time! Big thanks for doing this!

I will sticky this.

so fressshhh

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

I don't understand how come Nair doesn't auto cancel. Nair has 5 hits? right. I've land the move after the first hit and has had no landing lag isn't that the definition of auto cancel? There's a difference from land lagless from a characters aerial like a Wolf's fair as oppose to the move ending like Zelda's nair.

Other than that the new layout looks sweet. If you need any help with any testing just LMK and if I need to download codes just point me in the right direction.

 

[KayLo!]

Nair autocancels at the very beginning and the very end of the animation.... not while the hitbox is active. It just has very low landing lag, and the opponent suffers enough hitstun for you to follow up safely.

It might feel like it's canceling when you land during a hit, but it's not. A lot of people confuse low landing lag with autocanceling (like with Kirby's bair)..... common mistake.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

IDK kaylo it seems sketchy I'll check it out but I'm pretty sure her nair auto cancels. At no matter what point in the move you land. by this I mean hits. Here's a vid of HSS FF nair after 2 3 hits etc and it's canceling

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GHveYRodTrI

I don't see how it doesn't always auto-cancel.

 

[KayLo!]

It doesn't autocancel during the hitbox. I'm 110% sure about this, and I'll post a screenshot of PSA to prove it if it's that serious.

Download the codes and test it yourself: if you land during the hitbox, you can't shield until frame 13.

EDIT: Watched the vid, and you can tell visually that it's not autocanceling. Compare it to her normal 2- or 4-frame landing.

 

[-Mars-]

that zelda picture gets me excited

 

[KayLo!]

Gotta give people at least one reason to look in here. =X

 

[MrEh]

Seriously.


Also, I kind of want to see the guide. Just for kicks.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

It doesn't autocancel during the hitbox. I'm 110% sure about this, and I'll post a screenshot of PSA to prove it if it's that serious.

Download the codes and test it yourself: if you land during the hitbox, you can't shield until frame 13.

EDIT: Watched the vid, and you can tell visually that it's not autocanceling. Compare it to her normal 2- or 4-frame landing.

I just want to be certain. I could download the codes. Maybe I will.

that zelda picture gets me excited

Glad I'm not that only one.

 

[Half-Split Soul]

A video I helped to create gets posted in the first page, and still my name isn't mentioned in the OP? Preposterous!

Jkjk, the thread looks very good KayLo! Also, how much of Din's frame data have you figured out already? There's something I'd like you to confirm for me regarding the move.

Also also, if you want I could maybe make a short video about the infinite on Wario at some point for reference purposes.

 

[KayLo!]

Also, I kind of want to see the guide. Just for kicks.

If I remember (I'll probably get distracted as soon as I post this and forget x.x), I'll fwd it to you.

I just want to be certain. I could download the codes. Maybe I will.

Waste of time, but okay.

Also, how much of Din's frame data have you figured out already? There's something I'd like you to confirm for me regarding the move.

I've figured out a good bit already, and I know where all the data is. Mostly the loop stuff I gotta figure out. (Din's has three parts: the start animation, the loop when you're holding out the fireball, and the end when it's released.)

What about it do you need confirmed? I'll look into it again and get another Lab member to help/double check if necessary.

Also also, if you want I could maybe make a short video about the infinite on Wario at some point for reference purposes.

If you want, sure. Just make sure you're grabbing soon enough each time.... it's a bit harder than it seems when Wario is actively trying to jump out.

 

[-Mars-]

The Great Fairy Fountain App Thread. Iphone Exclusive

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

I don't like wasting my time so I'd prob just take your word for it. I don't need to be that thorough about it.

 

[Half-Split Soul]

What about it do you need confirmed? I'll look into it again and get another Lab member to help/double check if necessary.

Sorry for the late reply, school's been keeping me too busy to post lately.

Basically, I'd need you to check if the move always has the same amount of ending lag from the moment you let go of the B button regardless of how high in the air Zelda is. In other words, I'd need you to explode Din on the ground, in the air and finally just before Zelda lands and measure how long it takes until you regain control of Zelda after each one. Could you do this?

The Great Fairy Fountain App Thread. Iphone Exclusive

lol @ Kata edit.

 

[#HBC | Scary]

SHFF Uair autocancels but in an interesting manner.

If the full hitbox comes out, it'll never autocancel; however, if done correctly, you can see as much as the initial burst and hear the sound of the Uair. Also, you can buffer any move you want out of this. ANYTHING!!!

I found this maybe 2 days ago and didn't know if anyone knew so if anyone would like to give more testing, go for it.

 

[KayLo!]

I gotchu, HSS. Added it to the requests list.

SHFF Uair autocancels but in an interesting manner.

If the full hitbox comes out, it'll never autocancel; however, if done correctly, you can see as much as the initial burst and hear the sound of the Uair. Also, you can buffer any move you want out of this. ANYTHING!!!

I found this maybe 2 days ago and didn't know if anyone knew so if anyone would like to give more testing, go for it.

This is all true, but there's really no point to doing it except as a visual mindgame. You're screwed if you mess up the timing, though..... unless they run into the uair hitbox.

Might as well autocancel a nair or LK if you're going for the bait. Doesn't require strict timing, and it works just as well.

Btw, you can buffer out of any autocancel landing. Uair/Zelda isn't special as far as that goes. =X

 

[Half-Split Soul]

I gotchu, HSS. Added it to the requests list.

Thanks, you're the best!

 

[Kataefi]

When you reach the apex of Zelda's jump you can Fair and then buffer a FFDtilt with no lag. You can do this with Bair as well but the timing's stricter. But what I wanna know is whether the dtilt comes out sooner than if you were to just do Fair to another aerial? It seems like Fair>Dtilt/Dsmash can connect at later percents.

Also with kicks [inc.Dair], what's the blockstun? Does it decrease with decay? I have a few more questions but I'll go into overdrive =p

 

[KayLo!]

When you reach the apex of Zelda's jump you can Fair and then buffer a FFDtilt with no lag. You can do this with Bair as well but the timing's stricter. But what I wanna know is whether the dtilt comes out sooner than if you were to just do Fair to another aerial? It seems like Fair>Dtilt/Dsmash can connect at later percents.

?

I'm confused about what you're asking. When you buffer on landing, you're just making sure the dtilt (or whatever) comes out on the first possible frame after your landing lag..... so which aerial you use doesn't matter unless you're factoring in aerial landing lag.

Also with kicks [inc.Dair], what's the blockstun? Does it decrease with decay? I have a few more questions but I'll go into overdrive =p

Shield stun does decrease with decay; it's a function of damage. I'll get exact numbers for you.

Might as well ask your other questions so I can work through them all lol.

 

[KayLo!]

Shield Stun for Fair/Bair/Dair; Walking Dtilt Lock Deconfirmed; Din's Fire Frame Data

Fair/Bair/Dair Shield Stun (@Kataefi)

I got the shield stun numbers for you, Kata.

Shield stun for fresh fair/bair is 7 for the sweetspots, 1 for sourspots.
Shield stun for fresh dair is 5 for the sweetspot, 1 for sourspots.

For some reason, dair gives sweetspot shield stun even on grounded opponents. Dunno why that is.... I guess the game doesn't recognize someone as being truly grounded when they have their shield up (which isn't surprising since Brawl has some dumb *** coding sometimes).

To give an idea of how much staleness affects these numbers, a fully staled fair/bair sweetspot deals only 3 frames of shield stun.

Btw, the reason the OP says 1/1/1/6 for fair and bair is because those are the numbers using base damage. Fresh moves get a damage bonus, so they do slightly more stun. EDIT: Nvm, changed the formatting a bit.

Walking Dtilt Lock (@Kataefi)

Doesn't work against optimal SDI. They end up too far away, and since the frame advantage is only ~7-8 frames with a fresh dtilt, there's not enough time to walk forward as far as you need to.

EDIT #2:

Din's Fire Endlag (@HSS)

Din's always has 34 frames of endlag regardless of how it's detonated. If you start it in the air and land with it, the lag is the same.... it's just split between your air time and landing. Endlag is counted from when you release the B button.

I added this and a little bit more frame data about Din's to the OP. I've got its startup, endlag, and maximum hold length..... and I know the hitbox is out for 2 frames. But the fireball becomes active at different times depending on a few things, which I haven't totally figured out yet.

 

[Kataefi]

good **** kay - basically what I was asking you before was that when you do fair/bair > dtilt it doesn't look like she suffers any landing frames and she just swoops down into dtilt really fast. In a way it's similar or maybe the same as when Sheik does fair > dtilt. I wanted to know if for some reason the lag on fair becomes shorter than if she had ended Fair in the air and did another move there... if that makes any sense

Also I knew the walking dtilt lock didn't work in the way you described but I think at the time I meant when you factor in trips, it's 1 in every 3 dtilts that tend to trip, I was thinking in my head to maxmise the situation just walk over to them and re-initiate the 'lock' and hope they trip before they sdi back out again blah blah, but this isn't really testable frame-wise.

I'm tryna remember my other questions =D... which means they weren't very good. I'll post here when I remember.

 

[KayLo!]

You're autocanceling the kick, so you're still suffering landing frames, but it's just normal ones. Not fair/bair's landing lag. Uhh, I guess technically you're cutting off a little lag tho since you don't have to wait out the entire cooldown.

& they can SDI out of the lock in one hit, so no, it can't work that way. =X

 

[GodAtHand]

I used to do the Dtilt-trip-walk-continue dtiliting- etc. thing... but then people learned how to smash DI. >_<

So now I sometimes pretend I am going to do it once I get the first Dtilt trip I walk just a teeny bit so they think I am going to try it and start smash DIing(I hope) and then I just Dsmash them... and hopefully they have stupid DI and perish.

 

[Half-Split Soul]

If you start it in the air and land with it, the lag is the same.... it's just split between your air time and landing.

Okay, so I know that it's possible to control Zelda's fall in the air after Din when she's in her freefall state. However, if a part of Din's normal endlag is transferred to the landing lag when it's used in the air, doesn't that mean that you actually do regain control of Zelda a bit earlier than you would on ground? Or do you gain the ability to control her fall only after the 34 frames have passed and then experience the regular landing lag?

Spoiler

Not that it matters either way, I'm just curious.

Also, since I bet you're getting bored now that you've finished some requests, I have one more. Could you make the analysis of the invincibility frames on three situations:

1. Zelda grabs the ledge, immediately lets go, double jumps back on stage and uses Nayru's love
2. Zelda grabs the ledge, immediately jumps and then (quickly) uses Nayru's love
3. Zelda grabs the ledge, immediately lets go, double jumps back on stage and uses an aerial

Based on the frame data alone, she should be able to get on stage and attack with all of the aforementioned methods while still being invincible. However, if possible, I'd like you to double-check that. Thanks!

 

[KayLo!]

Okay, so I know that it's possible to control Zelda's fall in the air after Din when she's in her freefall state. However, if a part of Din's normal endlag is transferred to the landing lag when it's used in the air, doesn't that mean that you actually do regain control of Zelda a bit earlier than you would on ground? Or do you gain the ability to control her fall only after the 34 frames have passed and then experience the regular landing lag?

You can't control Zelda's aerial drift during Din's. So you're regaining control of Zelda at the same time whether you do Din's entirely in the air, while landing, or on the ground.

Also, since I bet you're getting bored now that you've finished some requests, I have one more. Could you make the analysis of the invincibility frames on three situations:

1. Zelda grabs the ledge, immediately lets go, double jumps back on stage and uses Nayru's love
2. Zelda grabs the ledge, immediately jumps and then (quickly) uses Nayru's love
3. Zelda grabs the ledge, immediately lets go, double jumps back on stage and uses an aerial

Based on the frame data alone, she should be able to get on stage and attack with all of the aforementioned methods while still being invincible. However, if possible, I'd like you to double-check that. Thanks!

Invincibility from a ledge grab only carries over into a ledge drop. (Other ledge actions -- roll, attack, climb, and jump -- have their own IFs, but they're over by the time you can do your next move.)

So in the first and third cases, your ledge grab IFs would carry over; in the second case, they wouldn't since you're ledge jumping as opposed to ledge hopping.

I don't know the exact numbers since I haven't done her ledge stuff yet, but that'll be the next batch of frame data I do. Zelda's double jump is balls, though, so I'm pretty sure her IFs wear off before or right around the time she gets over the ledge.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

can zelda do invincble nairs/bairs from a ledge drop ?

 

[MrEh]

can zelda do invincble nairs/bairs from a ledge drop ?

Technically, yes. Assuming you hit your opponent with the sweetspot of the Bair or the very first hit of the Nair. This also assumes that you ledgedrop on the first possible frame.

Bair
21-5 = 16 frames of invincibility left from a ledgedrop
Nair
21-6 = 15 frames of invincibility left from a ledgedrop


You can even drop down, jump, and then do an aerial. You'll still have invincibility.

Bair
21-5-6 = 10 frames of invincibility left from a ledgedrop+jump
Nair
21-6-6 = 9 frames of invincibility left from a ledgedrop+jump


However, if you miss, then you're vulnerable. Zelda is not invincible for the entire duration of either move. Her moves are way too slow.

Bair
25-36 = 11 frames of vulnerability if you miss
Nair
25-50 = 25 frames of vulnerability if you miss

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Hmmm, seems pretty risky. IDK if it's worth it.

 

[KayLo!]

Where'd you find those ledge frames, Eh? I had a feeling ledge stuff was already written somewhere, but I was too lazy to check lol.

 

[MrEh]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=267257


But yeah, getting the perfect 21 frames of invincibility is pretty hard. With human error, you'll probably get around 18 or 17. It's extremely risky for Zelda to go for these sort of things because of the terrible position you'll be in if you mess up. A gimp is almost guaranteed.

 

[KayLo!]

Thanks boo.

 

[Half-Split Soul]

You can't control Zelda's aerial drift during Din's. So you're regaining control of Zelda at the same time whether you do Din's entirely in the air, while landing, or on the ground.

That's what I thought. Thanks.

Invincibility from a ledge grab only carries over into a ledge drop. (Other ledge actions -- roll, attack, climb, and jump -- have their own IFs, but they're over by the time you can do your next move.)

So in the first and third cases, your ledge grab IFs would carry over; in the second case, they wouldn't since you're ledge jumping as opposed to ledge hopping.

I see. Could you then analyze for how many frames Zelda is vulnerable in the second case? I.e. the time between when the IF from ledgejump end and until IF from Nayru's love start? Preferably for both when activating Nayru's love causes her to instantly land on stage and when it causes her to drop down.

In case you don't understand what the hell I'm talking about:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vLQB8Et_890#t=5m46s

 

[MrEh]

Most ledge hops have IASA frames immediately after the invincibility wears off. However, there are some exceptions, and some character's IASA takes 1 or 2 more frames to kick in. We don't have the numbers for Zelda, so we can't really say for certain. However, we can estimate.

Naryu's invincibility kicks in on frame 5, so there's a 4 frame window where you can be hit during startup. We can't be sure if Zelda's ledgehop has a delay between the invincibility and the IASA frames though, so we can just say that there might be a 1 or 2 frame window to be safe.

So in the end, there's something like a 5-6 frame window of vulnerability. Not exactly safe, and very punishable.

 

[Kataefi]

I didn't know ANY of that ledge information!

@half-split from what I'm understanding of your post, are you questioning whether zelda can get on the stage and nayru's to keep invincibility and then drift back to the ledge /rinserepeat?

Also before I forget Kay I was gonna bring up that din's fire post where you listed the shield stun frames but I couldn't find it =( But from what I remember Din's has 10-16 shieldstun frames (10 for shortburst, 16 for maxburst) so that can be listed under the shieldstun section for that move.

Also, this applies to every character, but I was messing around with things and when you run and turn around, let go of the d-stick and tap the c-stick in the opposite diection. You do this really weird slide =/ Zelda's one is laggy and long, but I've seen a video where someone's doing an Fsmash slide from this. I wonder if it's possible to vary the sliding distance but I don't even know how to do it =?

 

[Half-Split Soul]

So in the end, there's something like a 5-6 frame window of vulnerability. Not exactly safe, and very punishable.

And when she lands on stage there's bound to be more vulnerability frames than that. I would still like to know the exact numbers however, since even if her time of vulnerability would be somewhere around 10 frames, maybe even slightly more, it could still be short enough to prevent punishment on reaction.

@half-split from what I'm understanding of your post, are you questioning whether zelda can get on the stage and nayru's to keep invincibility and then drift back to the ledge /rinserepeat?

Actually, I'm absolutely sure she can not safely do that nor use Nayru's to effectively plank. What I'm interested in is whether the invincibility NL offers is enough for it to became an usable ledge tool to get back on stage with reasonable amount of prediction.



Edit:

Also before I forget Kay I was gonna bring up that din's fire post where you listed the shield stun frames but I couldn't find it =( But from what I remember Din's has 10-16 shieldstun frames (10 for shortburst, 16 for maxburst) so that can be listed under the shieldstun section for that move.

I believe that was in the OP of sexy poses thread, which doesn't exist in the same form anymore.

Luckily, the info was preserved:
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=8000997&postcount=136
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=8001053&postcount=137
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=8001098&postcount=138

 

[Fuujin]

You can do rapid Din's fire from Delfino/Pirate ship with timing and aim.
It's situational/stage exclusive but it can prove somewhat helpful.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

You can do rapid Din's fire from Delfino/Pirate ship with timing and aim.
It's situational/stage exclusive but it can prove somewhat helpful.

What is rapid din's fire ?

Can someone look into Nair vs other moves. Like let's say my opponent is snake and he's doing Nair and i proceed to nair under him what happens? Can Nair beat out some non disjointed hit boxes?

 

[Fuujin]

What is rapid din's fire ?

Can someone look into Nair vs other moves. Like let's say my opponent is snake and he's doing Nair and i proceed to nair under him what happens? Can Nair beat out some non disjointed hit boxes?

Consecutive Dins fire.
Use Dins above water and the casting animations cancels out, like when she gets hit and the fire ball keeps flying.

Short hop, dins fire, aim it in an arch so it hits the ground where your opponent is (or if they're far enough just let it go straight) and repeat.

Can be done on Sonic's Spring too, but good luck finding it useful in that match up.