The Grapple Beam-Cancel

[Yuna]

I made a thread in the general Brawl section but it'll probably get lost in the spam and I wanted to alert the players of the characters involved in general, which is why I'm making separate threads for the character specific sections. The mods are free to lock them if they feel them unnecessary, but I thought it important to in particular inform the people who intend to play as Lucas, Toon Link, Link and/or Samus.

The new broken technique is here!

I already mentioned it in a thread, but I think it's important enough to warrant its own thread.

Every single character with an Aerial Z ledge-grapping technique can cancel it! How? It's simple, simply land while doing it and the beam/hook/snake will simply disappear, leaving behind zero lag (except for the four frames of landing animation).

It's just like the Float Cancel, only, you know, without the float!

Indeed, Link, Toon Link, Samus and Lucas players should all rejoice. You're no longer wide open should you accidentally do an aerial Z. Lucas doesn't gain that much from this as the others, though, since his snake doesn't have a hitbox when performed in the air. The others' attacks do, so they could throw it out for a quick shield pressure, cancel it and then go from there.

We need a collective name for it, though. Any votes?

 

[ZodiacDragon1014]

Grapple Cancel? Cancel Grapple?

 

[NOVA1106]

how about Z cancel?

 

[phanna]

As I pointed out in the original thread for this, this is not a cancel, it is a basic gameplay mechanic. It's good to observe that there's no extra landing lag on a landing grapple like there was in Melee, but that's it.

 

[CaliburChamp]

How about we name it... quick whip. Or Whip cancel, or Quick Whip Cancel. Its kind of catchy since quick and whip rhymes. Im in favor with quick whip cancel. QWC for short. What do you guys think?

 

[GotACoolName]

How about just Grapple Cancel...? Or how about nothing, considering it's essentially useless anyway (unless the move actually does some considerable damage now, which I doubt)?

As I pointed out in the original thread for this, this is not a cancel, it is a basic gameplay mechanic. It's good to observe that there's no extra landing lag on a landing grapple like there was in Melee, but that's it.

It's no less of a 'cancel' than float canceling.

 

[phanna]

It's no less of a 'cancel' than float canceling.

No.. in Melee, float cancelling would cause the Peach's aerials, which in that game have a certain landing lag, to have LESS landing lag. It has cancelled lag.

In Brawl, if someone discovers a technique to do a landing grapple and get EVEN less lag than what is being discussed here, THAT would be cancelling more lag. This is a simple mechanic. In your analogy, this move is Peach's non-cancelled aerial (simply landing).

 

[GotACoolName]

Okay, here's a different analogy. By landing in the middle of using the Grapple Beam, you cancel what lag it would have had left had you not touched the ground. The situation is the same for missile canceling: Landing on the ground in the middle of shooting a missile will cancel the lag that you otherwise would have needed to endure. Float canceling has the same effect, removing whatever lag remains from an attack by touching the ground.

 

[Pi]

It's just a Zair, then...or a whatever you press to preform it. It's just a move you preform in the air and the landing lag is 4 frames. Fair, bair, dair...

 

[W.Jr]

hhhhhhhhhmmmm sound very interesting

 

[Yuna]

No.. in Melee, float cancelling would cause the Peach's aerials, which in that game have a certain landing lag, to have LESS landing lag. It has cancelled lag.

In Brawl, if someone discovers a technique to do a landing grapple and get EVEN less lag than what is being discussed here, THAT would be cancelling more lag. This is a simple mechanic. In your analogy, this move is Peach's non-cancelled aerial (simply landing).

No, Float Cancel would cancel all of Peach's landing lag off of an aerial. She'd go into her Neutral Landing Lag which every single character goes into from simply landing without doing anything, an animation which lasted 4 frames.

Likewise, the Tether Cancel will cause you to go into your Neutral Landing Lag consisting of how many frames it now consists of. This is exactly like Peach's Float Cancel, only Peach could only do it with A-button aerial moves from a float and Tether Cancel can only be done through jumping and doing a Z-tether move.

Please, educate yourself on Float Canceling and Tether canceling before passionately arguing how very wrong I am and ignoring my responses to your arguments.

 

[phanna]

No, Float Cancel would cancel all of Peach's landing lag off of an aerial. She'd go into her Neutral Landing Lag which every single character goes into from simply landing without doing anything, an animation which lasted 4 frames.

Likewise, the Tether Cancel will cause you to go into your Neutral Landing Lag consisting of how many frames it now consists of. This is exactly like Peach's Float Cancel, only Peach could only do it with A-button aerial moves from a float and Tether Cancel can only be done through jumping and doing a Z-tether move.

Please, educate yourself on Float Canceling and Tether canceling before passionately arguing how very wrong I am and ignoring my responses to your arguments.

Imagine if in Melee, whenever Peach landed, even while performing an aerial, she only had 4 frames of lag. Besides being awesome, nobody would distinguish landing an aerial from a float versus just falling to the ground while performing an aerial, because the result would be the same. It would be a simple game mechanic, the way it was programmed: peach's landing aerials don't add to her normal empty landing lag. Doing it from a float or otherwise would not be called "cancelling" because nothing would be cancelled; there would have to be some lenghthier version you are avoiding, whose time you are cutting down on through a technique (float cancelling).

So if you can show me how Samus can land while grappling and have EXTRA lag than what is NORMAL, then you could call this a cancel, of that lag.

Edit: As for the missile cancelling analogy, I can understand why this might be a point of confusion, but the reason why missile cancelling is special is because most projectiles have full lag, even when performed while landing. For the Brawl side of that analogy, it would have to be something like Link and Olimar experienced longer landing lag if they tethered while landing, whereas Samus did not - then yes, there would be a reason to call hers something special. But they don't, they're all the same. If fireballs, pills, PK fire, electric shock, etc. all had normal landing lag in Melee, there wouldn't be a term for Missile cancelling or Fox/Falco's projectile ground cancel, because it would be the norm.

You can call this Tether Cancel if you want, but I'm going to stick to calling moves as to what they are. For Samus, this is a landing grapple. Generally speaking, it is a landing tether.

Again, in your mind, you're only cancelling the lag you would expect from Melee. You're expectation-cancelling. Unless there is a way for Samus to experience longer or shorter landing lag on her grapple, or for her tether land to be distinctly different from other characters, then there is no cancel being performed.

tl;dr: If I say "landing grapple" in Brawl, it's self-explanatory. Nobody will ask if I cancelled it or not, and if I referred to it as some sort of cancel, someone might ask what, exactly, I was cancelling. Since it's not a reduction in the normal landing grapple time for Samus, or for tethering characters in general, there would be no answer.

On a side note, I'm glad to see you've become quite the Brawl optimist, from what had seemed like quite a pessemist. Keep up the inquisitive spirit for Brawl though, I'm sure you'll bring forth some more interesting and useful things.

 

[Pi]

Also, the moves act differently depending on weather or not it's on the ground or in the air. While on the ground it grabs the opponent, in the air it just hits them. I'd be willing to say that the two situations are different moves, one is a grab, the other is a ZAIR :D. I mean look, you press fox's grab on the ground, he grabs, you press it in the air, he does nair.

 

[0RLY]

Phanna's words sound better than ever! =P However, "Zair" has a certain ring to it. I do believe I will start using it now! =3

Quick question... Does anybody like my sig? =3

 

[GotACoolName]

tl;dr: If I say "landing grapple" in Brawl, it's self-explanatory. Nobody will ask if I cancelled it or not, and if I referred to it as some sort of cancel, someone might ask what, exactly, I was cancelling. Since it's not a reduction in the normal landing grapple time for Samus, or for tethering characters in general, there would be no answer.

Except that when someone says 'missile canceling', I see it as they're not referring to landing while using a missile canceling lag that is still present when using other projectiles; they're referring to landing in order to cancel lag from shooting a missile that would be present had Samus not landed at all. Grapple canceling is the exact same concept. Landing in the middle of the grapple cancels lag from it that would be present if Samus had not landed at all. If grapple canceling isn't a cancel, then neither is missile canceling.

Okay, maybe you consider missile canceling a cancel for a different reason than I do (and what I've always assumed is the reason most people do), but either way, the point of view I am explaining makes sense, yes? Then referring to the move as a cancel is still valid at least by using this train of thought.

 

[Dew Rag]

Missile canceling, you have to time it for it to cancel

"grapple canceling" there is no real timing involved, it always "cancels" weither it be landing in the middle, end or beginning of grapple

"grapple canceling" is just a built in game mechanic where it is automatic, no skill involved like how there is "up b canceling" when performing up b to catch the edge, it's automatic

I think phanna wants to distinguish the difference between why it is called a cancel or not. Missile is a cancel because there specific timing involved whereas grapple and up b are just automatic things in the game

I think i got phanna's point of view, but if not, explain more or something

 

[Pi]

I get what people are saying about missle canceling, but no matter where you shoot the missle; air or ground, it's the same thing you're doing. I'm trying to say that in the air the grapple does not act the same as in the air, ya know? It's like comparing a jab to a nair...they are different moves.

 

[Ares And Enyo]

rofl at phanna's up hill battle

but why can't we call it canceled?

 

[squarez]

Because technically no lag is canceled, but you can call it whatever you want. Z-air seems the most logical choice.

 

[The_Woebegone_Jackal]

in the Link forums they are calling it TACTICS... I thought that was a fun name

player 2: "how did you beat me?!"

Player 1: "Its all in the TACTICS baby"

 

[verditude]

Does the grapple have air lag if you don't land during it? If so, landing in the middle could be considered a cancel. Assuming that landing cancels air lag, I move we call the move a Zair and landing during it a Z-cancel (as a throwback to SSB64) or Zair cancel.

Anyway, the real important stuff: Hylian has suggested that this stops (almost) all of Marth's approaches cold. Who else can we shut down with the air grapple? I'm thinking anyone without projectiles or weird special approaches could be stopped (I'm thinking Bowser, Captain Falcon, DK, Charizard, Jiggs, Wario? I'm sure there are more, I just can't think right now)

 

[Snakeee]

Man, I really wish ZSS had a Z-air
Edit: Well her Side B is better actually lol.

 

[Boolossus]

We could call this technique the ZLAG.

Zero
Lag
Aerial
Grapple

 

[Psydon]

Does the grapple have air lag if you don't land during it? If so, landing in the middle could be considered a cancel. Assuming that landing cancels air lag, I move we call the move a Zair and landing during it a Z-cancel (as a throwback to SSB64) or Zair cancel.

Anyway, the real important stuff: Hylian has suggested that this stops (almost) all of Marth's approaches cold. Who else can we shut down with the air grapple? I'm thinking anyone without projectiles or weird special approaches could be stopped (I'm thinking Bowser, Captain Falcon, DK, Charizard, Jiggs, Wario? I'm sure there are more, I just can't think right now)

1. The Zair has no pre-lag (from what I can see) and almost no end-lag. If you use it, it doesn't put you into a freefall state like in Melee, but you can only use it thrice before you touch the ground. If you land during any part of its animation it cancels all lag. Otherwise it'll be a normal land.

2. You can stop anyone's approach with the Zair, air or ground, as long as it touches them. It can be effective no matter who you use it on. It's only limitation (which essentially balances it) is that your aim has to be spot-on or it's useless.

Boo, that's actually pretty clever, and you could also have ZLAG stand for Zero LAG. But I think people are pretty settled in with Zair.

 

[THE RED SPARROW]

This is all a circle of semantics, but logically speaking Phanna is correct, it's a normal mechanic preprogrammed for this effect.

 

[Boolossus]

Boo, that's actually pretty clever, and you could also have ZLAG stand for Zero LAG. But I think people are pretty settled in with Zair.

Darn, I wanted to change the world.

 

[Pi]

Darn, I wanted to change the world.

It's just a Zair, then...or a whatever you press to preform it. It's just a move you preform in the air and the landing lag is 4 frames. Fair, bair, dair...

Sorry mate! This one's mine! :D

 

[FS Fantom]

Man, I really wish ZSS had a Z-air
Edit: Well her Side B is better actually lol.

ZSS has a tether grab, why doesn't ZAIR work for her like the others?

 

[ph00tbag]

ZSS has a tether grab, why doesn't ZAIR work for her like the others?

I'm fairly sure her grab doesn't tether. Only her overB and upB.

 

[FS Fantom]

Oh...It's only 'extended' grabs that ALSO tether.

I thought it was all of the 'extended' grab moves.