The Expanded Minimum Stage Proposal and Countermeasure (U.S.A.)

[Radical Larry]

So it has now come down to this. The topic of what the stage list has always been unbalanced between our community, and recently it has become an unfathomably inane argument to where people have said that we should have less and less stages that are Tournament Legal in Super Smash Bros. for Wii U. However, after having posted smaller variations of the proposition on the Stage Legality Discussion, I have finally decided to give the ultimate proposition and ruling that stages need for this game. I cannot lie that even I think that the stage list going down to such abyssal numbers is horrifying and unbalanced to the game as a whole. But now I have the idea and countermeasure to counteract that, so please here me out on my proposition and poll, and while I am no professional, I believe this should at least be the utmost end-all argument to the minimum amount of stages in the game.

This however, needs to be put into its own topic of discussion as it talks about various things wrong with the current stage list, outlines many problems and intends to fix it, and even will give advantages listed.

This only affects the United States stage ruleset and has no effect over any other countries, but my proposition, the rule, is as follows for the stage list:

Article I [1]: Set a true minimum of stages.​

Let the true minimum of stages not be decidedly abyssal in the stage list, and as it stands right now, there are many people who indeed want around three to five stages as tournament legal. However, there needs to be more to provide prominent balance to the metagame of characters and the amount of stages listed, as well as expanded selection of a stage instead of restricting the guideline to 1-2-1 and forcing a player to essentially choose one stage out of two to play on. However, when people have wanted only three, this further exacerbates the problem by restricting the amount of stages further. To counteract these low stages, I have created a poll to ask how many stages we should include in tournaments, and there will be no selection below 6 stages, which is the lowest I will indeed allow for this poll or else the purpose of this is outright null.

Article II [2]: Balanced Stages and Variant Stages​

Let no stage that is otherwise balanced within the game be banned. By this, I know that I have seen many stages within the Super Smash Bros. Wii U U.S. tournament scene banned for very inane reasons that can be outright fallacious and wrong in many degrees or overly exaggerated to the point where it is almost insane. One very example is the stage of Wuhu Island, a transitional stage with absolutely no hazards and very few walk-offs; it was due to one very glitch that this stage was indeed banned. However, that glitch had been fixed, so this stage, which would otherwise be balanced, should be legal by all means; though this is not the case and it is not even counterpick. Another very prominent example are the "Battlefield Clone" and "Delfino Clone" stages, which will be put into other arguments below this:

IIa [2a]: The "Battlefield Variant" refers to any stage with a main platform and three-platform setup within the game, just merely skewed to a different size or with different elements.​

This ultimately refers to the stages known as Battlefield, Lylat Cruise, Dreamland 64, Miiverse and Midgar. However, as Midgar does have unbalanced parts of its stage, it will not be argued for. However, all of these stages have one very thing in common, as they are all dilated variants of the exact same stage. In Super Smash Bros. Melee, we have seen the same with Battlefield, Fountain of Dreams, Yoshi's Story and Dreamland 64, all of which are just dilated variants of the same concept, but all of them are tournament legal. So this points toward Smash 4 in a very ironic and outright hypocritical tone, as only Battlefield and Lylat are considered tournament Legal, with the latter being argued as to be possibly banned. However, why should we make ourselves look like hypocrites by simply allowing Melee's stage roster to have those four stages, which are again, dilated forms of the same layout, when we cannot even allow Dreamland 64, Miiverse and possibly eventually Lylat Cruise, to be legal? I will let you think about that for a second.

I will state however that I acknowledge Lylat Cruise is not a true Battlefield stage clone, but it does follow the standard 3 soft platform layout, albeit with different mechanics to its "cousin" stages. The only true Battlefield Clone is that of Miiverse, since both have the same concept that will be outlined in Article 6 of this.

IIb [2b]: The "Delfino Variant" refers to any transitional stage akin to the concept of Delfino Plaza, and this includes​

Delfino Plaza itself, Skyloft, Wuhu Island and Mario Circuit U. These stages are infamous for having walk-offs and being transitional, with Mario Circuit U having hazards, albeit predictable and easily avoidable at that. Should Delfino Plaza be tournament legal, why not the other stages? They are just the same variants, if not better than Delfino itself in terms of stage layouts. Mario Circuit U, despite having hazards, actually has the most balance of them all as it has the same platform throughout and has the least amount of walk-offs, having only two. Is it not being dishonest and unfair to Delfino Clone stages to not allow them, but simply allow only one if needed? That is not how it should work at all, as all of them are balanced in their own way and see no need to simply ban them. At the least, all would be counterpick at best, no?

Article III [3]: Problems with a Small Vocal Group​

This is one that legitimately bothers me. Why is it that we let a small amount of people merely dictate what should be public vote instead? Why let a small amount of people, who are either professionals or famous people within the Smash community, vote in how many or how little stages there should be? Many famous Smash 4 players have often called for the banning of otherwise balanced stages, which should not credit them, but it should have instead discredited them from giving arguments, since their arguments could merely be countered. But what is the problem? Why do we not do anything to stop prominent speakers of the Smash 4 community from dictating what stages we should and shouldn't have in tournaments? If anything, we need to legitimately discuss it as a community instead of letting certain amounts of people simply lower the amount of stages. I've talked with others who agree that we need a higher amount of stages, but I'm not above anyone when I say my sides of the argument, so shouldn't prominent Smash 4 players and speakers. Instead, let the people decide on what stages be legal and get a consensus going in the stead, but with a little moderation with minimum.

Article IV [4]: The Advantages of a Broader Stage List​

The advantages of a broader stage list (minimum) include allowing many other stages that would have otherwise been banned to be tournament legal or counterpick, it will increase the desire to go to a tournament, it will also increase the fun, gradual ratings of livestreams and best of all, balance of the game as a whole. The increase in desire to go into a tournament means that more people will be able to want to go to a tournament due to the selection of stages that could be legitimately played, and it will also increase the amount of fun as a result. Ratings would increase as the amount of stages having been increased will result in more action from the players and more strategies needed, which also balance out the game and even help some MUs of various characters who would otherwise be at a heavy disadvantage against certain characters due to a lower amount of stages. The additional strategies would also give characters more seen usage within the game as well, and would make players inevitably explore them more, and thus we will see more tournament usage and diversity for characters with the stages.

Article V [5]: Ensuring Survival of Super Smash Bros. Wii U's Competitive Scene​

It is imperative that we ensure the survival of this game's competitive scene, and banning stages left and right is NOT the way to do it whatsoever. This would, in turn of fact, if we do end up banning it down to only three stages legal, dwindle the competitive scene and would eventually make Super Smash Bros. for Wii U's competitive scene not only look like a joke, but also would gradually lose many people's interest for the game. Having a larger stage list ensures survival by the aforementioned Article 4, which had outlined the advantages of a broader stage list. We should not homogenize a smaller stage list, as it will ensure a quick death of the competitive scene, but instead make impromptu and diligent steps to provide survival with a larger stage list.

Article VI [6]: Sub-Selections of Stages​

As Article 2 may be controversial at best, I've decidedly come to the conclusion that we could have the possibility to include Sub-Selections of current stages such as Final Destination, Battlefield and Delfino Plaza. These stages are known as "Picks" in their respective category and have similar behavior, if not exact behavior as, their parent stages. These would include, but are almost limited to, Omega Stages (Wall, Semi-Wall and Platform) as the Final Destination Pick, Miiverse as the Battlefield Pick and Wuhu Island, Skyloft and Mario Circuit U as the Delfino Pick. This ensures no shortage or ban of stage variety as the stages would merely have corresponding options to pick from. As an example, should one player pick Battlefield, the players can discuss which variation of the pick should be taken, and both can either agree on Battlefield or Miiverse. As the stages are denoted as being almost the same exact stage, sub-selections merely increase variety and adopt a pseudo-Gentleman style selection rather than a banning selection.

Article VII [7]: Why the Six to Fifteen Stage Minimum Limit​

Originally I had intended for at least eight to nine minimum tournament legal stages (not including the Sub-Selections article, which would expand it much further), however, due to demand, there has been a step to make it six, but no lower than that as it would defeat the purpose of this. Someone had once asked for the "No Minimum" option; however, that too would defeat the purpose of the topic at hand. This thread was meant for discussion of a minimum, and going down to an amount of stages minimum that is already (albeit so far) the current minimum (5) would not work, as we at least need some more diversity in stages in order to create diversity in strategies and character usage. As outlined in Article 4, fun would be a niche should there not be a broadened option and minimum for stage selection.

Inevitably, I had to write this down as I had promised earlier in the Stage Legality Discussion, but it's saddening to see the dwindling amount of tournament legal stages, yet no entirely large argument to make a set amount of stages minimum or to actually try increasing tournament legal stages. Instead of waiting and letting it sit, I wanted to do something, I needed to make this so we can at least discuss and vote on a minimum instead of a small amount of stages voted on by a little amount of people.

 

[Omegaphoenix]

Mostly this is good, I just have a few problems with article 2a

First, just because Melee set the precedent doesn't mean that it needs to be followed. More importantly, Melee doesn't have a load of choices to select from. They had to have the similar stages, otherwise they wouldn't have any to play on at all. I don't think its really fair to compare the much more varied selection Wii U has to the unfortunately more limited Melee selection, which through over a decade of play, has cut down on a lot of stuff. Mute City, Rainbow Cruise, Peach's Castle, Pokefloats.

(Although in all honesty, the fact that despite having so much obviously ridiculous stuff, the early melee community still went through and tested so many stages really says something about the new Smash meta, when D1's BANNED is a meme)

Second, I wouldn't really consider Lylat in the same section as BF like stages. It does have three plats, but the orientation is barely similar, and the main plat has dips that do affect gameplay pretty noticeably. I don't think it belongs in that category of BF like stages.

Third: Is Dreamland banned often? It might just be my region (Northeast), but I've never had Dreamland banned in a tourney before. Counterpick because of some idiot TOs (my school for one) but never banned.

Fourth: Miiverse is, for all intents and purposes, a clone of BF. Same blastzones, same size, same plats. The only real difference is the underside, which basically turns this into the walled omega debate all over again, which, for the most part has been settled as if you're counterpicking FD, go nuts. I feel putting it as it's own stage would be a bad idea, given that its basically BF 2.0 (Although admittedly my school does do Miiverse as a fifth stage for starters, but we're ignorant Northeasters so we wouldn't know anything about picking stages anyway. Also, I've been trying to push for Dreamland to replace it for starters)

 

[Xermo]

Lylat isn't a battlefield clone. If a tri-platform stage denotes you to battlefield status, then I guess skyworld and gamer are bf clones too.

 

[Zareidriel]

I think I speak for many people when I say this.

There just aren't 9 usable stages in the game. I would like to have a broader stage list but it's just not possible.

In general I'm a supporter of a liberal stagelist. But when Sheik can Fair more than 3/4 of the cast to death, with the help of a walk-off, that immediately makes all four of them unusable. (IMHO)

Also every tournament I've ever been to, Dreamland and Lylat are perfectly legal.

I think we're pretty much stuck with a 7-stage stagelist. And anyone who has a problem with Duck Hunt or Lylat are just being silly.

 

[Radical Larry]

Mostly this is good, I just have a few problems with article 2a

First, just because Melee set the precedent doesn't mean that it needs to be followed. More importantly, Melee doesn't have a load of choices to select from. They had to have the similar stages, otherwise they wouldn't have any to play on at all. I don't think its really fair to compare the much more varied selection Wii U has to the unfortunately more limited Melee selection, which through over a decade of play, has cut down on a lot of stuff. Mute City, Rainbow Cruise, Peach's Castle, Pokefloats.

(Although in all honesty, the fact that despite having so much obviously ridiculous stuff, the early melee community still went through and tested so many stages really says something about the new Smash meta, when D1's BANNED is a meme)

Second, I wouldn't really consider Lylat in the same section as BF like stages. It does have three plats, but the orientation is barely similar, and the main plat has dips that do affect gameplay pretty noticeably. I don't think it belongs in that category of BF like stages.

Third: Is Dreamland banned often? It might just be my region (Northeast), but I've never had Dreamland banned in a tourney before. Counterpick because of some idiot TOs (my school for one) but never banned.

Fourth: Miiverse is, for all intents and purposes, a clone of BF. Same blastzones, same size, same plats. The only real difference is the underside, which basically turns this into the walled omega debate all over again, which, for the most part has been settled as if you're counterpicking FD, go nuts. I feel putting it as it's own stage would be a bad idea, given that its basically BF 2.0 (Although admittedly my school does do Miiverse as a fifth stage for starters, but we're ignorant Northeasters so we wouldn't know anything about picking stages anyway. Also, I've been trying to push for Dreamland to replace it for starters)

The only way I've compared Smash Wii U to Melee is by merely stating the obvious with the "Battlefield Clone" or as I should have called them, "Battlefield dilation stages", since the stages are merely skewed or stretched to make them different than Battlefield, but they fit the exact tri-platform and main platform concept.

Lylat is merely a vertical dilation of Battlefield that tilts around, but not a complete clone I admit.

Dreamland is considered to be prime for banning in some regions here in America, mainly due to stage listers wanting no more than one "Battlefield-esque" stage despite the stages having pretty much decent balance.

Lastly, Miiverse has nothing wrong with it, it's just a Battlefield clone, so what? So what if it is? It doesn't mean it's less balanced than Battlefield (when in fact, it's the opposite since it doesn't have some cheap stage spike shenanigans such as Link's foot on Spin Attack stage spiking an opponent); it just means that hey, maybe we can have a new rule set in place for "legitimate clone stages" like Miiverse and Omegas in which we can have a sub-selection of which ones we want to go to. I might make an article on that.

Lylat isn't a battlefield clone. If a tri-platform stage denotes you to battlefield status, then I guess skyworld and gamer are bf clones too.

However, there was a keyword that I have used in my stage statement, as Lylat is a "dilation" of Battlefield. It's more of, say, a very flat version of it vertically.

I think I speak for many people when I say this.

There just aren't 9 usable stages in the game. I would like to have a broader stage list but it's just not possible.

In general I'm a supporter of a liberal stagelist. But when Sheik can Fair more than 3/4 of the cast to death, with the help of a walk-off, that immediately makes all four of them unusable. (IMHO)

Also every tournament I've ever been to, Dreamland and Lylat are perfectly legal.

I think we're pretty much stuck with a 7-stage stagelist. And anyone who has a problem with Duck Hunt or Lylat are just being silly.

Let's see, it IS possible but you do not see that certain stages CAN be tournament legal and counterpick stages because you don't simply look at enough balance. Hear me out, here are examples of stages, which are otherwise balanced enough to be played, on a stage list, as an example:

Starters: Final Destination, Battlefield, Lylat Cruise, Smashville, Town and City, Duck Hunt, Dreamland, Castle Siege
Counterpicks: Delfino Plaza, Kongo Jungle, Pokemon Stadium 2, Halberd, Mushroom Kingdom U
Sub-Selections: Final Destination Pick (Omega Stages), Battlefield Pick (Miiverse) and Delfino Pick (Skyloft, Wuhu Island and Mario Circuit U)

Now if you go to the Stage Legality thread, there are arguments that point out many things right about the stages and arguments for the stages. All of these stages have a degree of balance to them that's been relatively ignored by a large part of the community, despite efforts into telling otherwise with legitimate arguments presented by facts.

There are 18 stages I just listed, which are completely usable by any means, and this includes the Sub-Selections (still would be 13 without them). So if you're saying that we can't use 9, you're missing the point of my argument and have not seen much of the Stage Legality Thread and the arguments supporting the stages, or any argument for the stages. If I can list off the top of my head up to 18 stages, then certainly we can have even remotely HALF of that.

 

[Zareidriel]

Then, just tell me about the thing I mentioned where Sheik can kill you with repeated Fairs on any walk-off in the game. This is my main problem with Castle Siege, Mario Circuit, Skyloft, Delfino, and Wuhu Island. If you could assuage my fears about that one thing, there would be 5 more stages I would support.

Is it true that Sheik can true-combo more than 50% of characters off of any walk-off in the game?

 

[Radical Larry]

Then, just tell me about the thing I mentioned where Sheik can kill you with repeated Fairs on any walk-off in the game. This is my main problem with Castle Siege, Mario Circuit, Skyloft, Delfino, and Wuhu Island. If you could assuage my fears about that one thing, there would be 5 more stages I would support.

Is it true that Sheik can true-combo more than 50% of characters off of any walk-off in the game?

You see, that would often be the case without certain amounts of DI or certain platforms on these walk-offs. On Castle Siege, if the opponent can DI upward from any of Sheik's true combos, they'll likely land on one of the two side platforms; on Mario Circuit U, there are only two legitimate walk-offs on the stage, literally, and yet even those walk-offs can take some time to get from one part to another, with one of them having different positioning and the other having a platform above to keep your character safe against some possible attacks from Sheik.

As with Skyloft, the walk-off portions are often enormous when they come or have platforms that can ultimately prevent such things from occurring, the one with the platform is the one with the walk-off that stays at the right, and the super massive walk-off is the one near the tower, which is a leftward walk-off. Delfino is somewhat the same with its walk-offs, although it has various objects and walls for two of its walk-offs that could potentially protect a character from a Sheik. As with Wuhu Island, the walk-off portions of the stage are actually massive overall, so Sheik would need to be really, really close to the edge of the stage for a 50% true combo to efficiently work. Furthermore, the bridge has bottom blast lines and the fountain has...a fountain that blocks Sheik's approach.

On certain walk-offs, there's nothing stopping Sheik from repeated F-Airs, but on most walk-offs on these stages, there can and will be something that might stop Sheik's F-Air stringing if we're talking about a non-DI type of game. If we include DI, that would be an awful lot more explanation.

 

[Tinkerer]

Why is there no option for "no minimum" or anything less than 9, 9 mostly being the current maximum ran at tourneys? If it really is a "vocal minority" wanting a smaller stageset, there's no real way of proving that here.

 

[Radical Larry]

Why is there no option for "no minimum" or anything less than 9, 9 mostly being the current maximum ran at tourneys? If it really is a "vocal minority" wanting a smaller stageset, there's no real way of proving that here.

Alright, alright, I'll edit the poll to include 6 and 7 stages minimum, but no lower to retain either balance or fundamental stage striking without going down as low as 5, let alone 3 or no minimum.

Edit: I've added 6 and 7. However, I'm not adding "No Minimum" to the options as you say because that defeats the entire purpose of this thread and will allow for a horrendously low amount of stages for the game.

Edit 2: I'm now wishing that I would have the ability to move these options or remove them. OCD is a cruel mistress sometimes.

 

[TheHypnotoad]

A lot of your information makes no sense. Only 5 legal stages? Every region I know of runs at least 6 or 7. Dream Land 64 and Lylat banned? The only region I know of which completely bans DL is Chicago, and some regions consider it the same as BF, while most regions have it fully legal. And I don't know of any regions which ban Lylat. Delfino being legal? Almost no tournaments still allow Delfino because we realized it was a crappy stage that isn't fit for tournaments.

You should get your facts straight before making an argument.

 

[Masonomace]

I just wanna say before reading the OP, I wanna mention that ever since my local scene has removed Castle Siege & Halberd from the stagelist, some tournaments have 7 or 8 stages for both Singles & Doubles. If Delfino Plaza isn't in the stagelist, then you're left with Battlefield/Miiverse, Final Destination/Omegas, Lylat Cruise, Town & City, Smashville, Duck Hunt, & Dreamland (64). So assuming that this kind of stagelist is quite common, I'd probably add another poll result being 7 stages. Although, I know that your OP's mission is to focus on having a larger stage minimum, yet the current status of scenes having a 7 stage ruleset may be something they're very content with (for now).

And oh, there seems to be a edit change voting for 7 now before actually posting this & not leaving it up. Cool at least that's done. I'll post something later about my thoughts to the OP.

 

[Radical Larry]

A lot of your information makes no sense. Only 5 legal stages? Every region I know of runs at least 6 or 7. Dream Land 64 and Lylat banned? The only region I know of which completely bans DL is Chicago, and some regions consider it the same as BF, while most regions have it fully legal. And I don't know of any regions which ban Lylat. Delfino being legal? Almost no tournaments still allow Delfino because we realized it was a crappy stage that isn't fit for tournaments.

You should get your facts straight before making an argument.

I just wanna say before reading the OP, I wanna mention that ever since my local scene has removed Castle Siege & Halberd from the stagelist, some tournaments have 7 or 8 stages for both Singles & Doubles. If Delfino Plaza isn't in the stagelist, then you're left with Battlefield/Miiverse, Final Destination/Omegas, Lylat Cruise, Town & City, Smashville, Duck Hunt, & Dreamland (64). So assuming that this kind of stagelist is quite common, I'd probably add another poll result being 7 stages. Although, I know that your OP's mission is to focus on having a larger stage minimum, yet the current status of scenes having a 7 stage ruleset may be something they're very content with (for now).

And oh, there seems to be a edit change voting for 7 now before actually posting this & not leaving it up. Cool at least that's done. I'll post something later about my thoughts to the OP.

Your scenes may run 6 to 8 stages, but what I'm trying to do is set a minimum to prevent the stages from ultimately dipping to the minimum likes of 3 to 5, which would be rather unfair due to the amount of balanced stages in the game that could be allowed. There's been talk about having stages removed to a very low amount, which is worrisome. But at the same time, there has been talk about bringing back completely balanced stages, which hopefully does happen in the end.

In the end, it's up for the people to decide on a low or a high minimum.

 

[deepseadiva]

Here is a theoretical proposal I brought up in the Stage Discussion thread. Maybe we should not be aiming to have a diverse stage list just by number, but rather a diverse stage list in playable terms:

Smash stages right now come in several duplicate forms: Final Destination and Omegas, Battlefield and Dream Land, Delfino and Castle Siege. These pairs have important differences but also conform to basic "archetypes". Flat, 3 platforms, transforming, etc.

I wonder if at this point in the game it might be beneficial to focus on simplifying the stage list and focus on including one of each archetype, instead of trying to decide which stages are "most neutral" (impossible, and filled with character bias) or trying to expand the stage list to include as many "usable" stages as possible (unpopular, clunky). If we can identify what makes stages special, we can loosely categorize them and create a stagelist that is diverse in playable terms, and not just diverse based on quantity.

For example we could categorize them like this:

Flat: Final Destination, Omega Forms, Smashville, Town and City
Platform: Battlefield, Dreamland 64, Miiverse, Lylat Cruise, Duck Hunt
Transforming: Halberd, Delfino Plaza, Castle Siege, Wuhu Island

In theory, we could have a diverse enough 3-stage-list by just choosing one from each category. Or two stages from each. Maybe even more radical of an idea: rotating the stages every single tournament...

Categorizing won't be an exact science, but there's no doubt the result of this kind of list would be both diverse and simple, a middle ground rarely seen in Smash. Again, just a proposal. Thoughts?

 

[Radical Larry]

Here is a theoretical proposal I brought up in the Stage Discussion thread. Maybe we should not be aiming to have a diverse stage list just by number, but rather a diverse stage list in playable terms:

Smash stages right now come in several duplicate forms: Final Destination and Omegas, Battlefield and Dream Land, Delfino and Castle Siege. These pairs have important differences but also conform to basic "archetypes". Flat, 3 platforms, transforming, etc.

I wonder if at this point in the game it might be beneficial to focus on simplifying the stage list and focus on including one of each archetype, instead of trying to decide which stages are "most neutral" (impossible, and filled with character bias) or trying to expand the stage list to include as many "usable" stages as possible (unpopular, clunky). If we can identify what makes stages special, we can loosely categorize them and create a stagelist that is diverse in playable terms, and not just diverse based on quantity.

For example we could categorize them like this:

Flat: Final Destination, Omega Forms, Smashville, Town and City
Platform: Battlefield, Dreamland 64, Miiverse, Lylat Cruise, Duck Hunt
Transforming: Halberd, Delfino Plaza, Castle Siege, Wuhu Island

In theory, we could have a diverse enough 3-stage-list by just choosing one from each category. Or two stages from each. Maybe even more radical of an idea: rotating the stages every single tournament...

Categorizing won't be an exact science, but there's no doubt the result of this kind of list would be both diverse and simple, a middle ground rarely seen in Smash. Again, just a proposal. Thoughts?

Mind giving reason as to why Smashville and Town and City are not in Platform, and why Duck Hunt isn't in Flat? Town and City is also a transforming stage since elements on it do indeed change time to time, and Duck Hunt is more flat than Platform, with the only platforms being the trees and the occasional Dog. I'd like to know that.

I do agree that a stage list can be diverse in playable terms and number, but remember that this thread is minimum at the least, numbering the least amount of stages applicable. Your categorization is indeed diverse and simple, though, I'll give you that.

 

[deepseadiva]

I did want to offer a challenge to this idea, that a minimum number could be as low as three, if the stages are diverse enough.

The categorizations can change. I just put Smashville and T&C in the flat category because that is there obvious feature, despite some moving platforms. Duck Hunt is the oddest stage, since its also mostly flat, but it has this weird out of the way platform that no other stage has.

 

[Wintermelon43]

Starter:Final Destination, Battlefield, Dream Land, Smashville, Town & City

Counterpick:Duck Hunt, Lylat Cruise, Halberd, Castle Siege, Delfino Plaza, Pokemon Stadium 2, Possibly Midgar,

No Miiverse because then the streams could be R rated and/or could spoil movies, books, other video games, etc.

 

[Drewthedude64]

No Miiverse because then the streams could be R rated and/or could spoil movies, books, other video games, etc.

Nintendo REALLY needs to view and filter those comments before allowing them on the stage. I've seen someone write nothing but "Anus Banana". And *****. Lots of *****.

 

[SuaveChaser]

I really hope there will be a few more stages in the future i really miss delfino.

 

[Xeze]

A stagelist with 8 stages would be ideal, imo. This would guarantee 2 bans during counterpicking, both in bo3 and bo5, and offers enough variety. I'm hoping that Umbra Clock Tower is good to be a legal stage. Otherwise a 7-stage list should be the minimum.

 

[Radical Larry]

A stagelist with 8 stages would be ideal, imo. This would guarantee 2 bans during counterpicking, both in bo3 and bo5, and offers enough variety. I'm hoping that Umbra Clock Tower is good to be a legal stage. Otherwise a 7-stage list should be the minimum.

Going by what Sakurai said, Umbra Clock Tower seems to be just a very flat stage that shows the scene and has a bit of floating platforms (if I remember correctly). Suppose there are floating platforms and that they aren't soft, but since they move, they'd be temporary caves of life. Temporary, not permanent, so they'd be balanced at least.

 

[Megamang]

Stages are ultimately up to the TO, a smashboards thread isnt going to somehow impose a minimum and prevent stage bans. We ban them when we realize they aren't conducive to good games. Halbard could be fun, but the focus on ceiling kills on the stronger half of the cast means it is super cheesy to actually play in tournament; nothing sucks more than being eliminated by boost kick at 20%, therefore im glad it is not allowed in my region.

If there were more stages conducive to good competitive games then i would love to play them. However, i dont want to play on lame stages for the sake of increasing the size of the stage list.

 

[Radical Larry]

EVO Time is coming everyone! I'm going to emphasize that we need to make a stand now for a good minimum stage list set! We need to join up with the Stage Legality Thread and share the importance of the stages like so!

 

[teluoborg]

I cannot lie that even I think that the stage list going down to such abyssal numbers is horrifying and unbalanced to the game as a whole.

Ok let's start with this : what are the proofs that a small stage list is correlated with the game being unbalanced ?

You've made a gigantic wall of text by assuming that your personal opinion is an objective truth.

 

[Megamang]

Indeed, and as a Link main you'd think he would fear circle camping more.

 

[snuffysam]

For that matter, why should the AMOUNT of stages truly matter? Let's say Character/Player A is best on stages without many platforms, and Character/Player B is best on stages with multiple platforms.

Let's start with a three-stage ruleset: Final Destination, Battlefield, and Dream Land. In this ruleset, B bans FD, A bans Battlefield, and they're left with Dream Land, which is in B's favor.

Now switch to a five-stage ruleset: Final Destination, Battlefield, Dream Land, Smashville, and Lylat. B bans FD, A bans Battlefield, B bans Smashville, A bans Dream Land, and they're left with Lylat, which is in B's favor.

Of course, this is an oversimplification of which stages whatever characters are best on and how banning works, but ultimately it comes down to the proportion of stage types, not the amount of stages. I'm not talking specifically about Battlefield deviations, BTW- this could easily swing the other way.

My point is, while having a larger stage list will change the meta somewhat, the change doesn't seem like it should really be significant.

(Even though, IMO, I think there should be a larger stage selection. But I don't think your argument quite justifies it.)

 

[Megamang]

I think ideally everyone would want a larger stage list if possible, but there arent many stages that dont promote a certain style of play.

 

[Radical Larry]

I think ideally everyone would want a larger stage list if possible, but there arent many stages that dont promote a certain style of play.

Mind naming around 10 that don't? Or are there less than that?

 

[Mario766]

We have 7 stages that are allowed at basically every US event.


We have a stage that has a chance to make the stage list become 8

5 Neutrals
2-3 Counter-Picks

With MDSR + 1 Ban that has to reset every win, this leads to having enough stages to allow a choice at any time.

First game is on Smashville. Player 1 wins
Player 1 bans Final Destination. Player 2 selects Battlefield
Player 2 Wins. Player 2 bans Duck Hunt. Player 1 can't play on Smashville so he picks Town and City.
Player 1 wins. Player 1 bans Dream Land 64. Player 2 can't play on Battlefield, so he chooses Lylat.
Player 2 wins. Player 2 bans Smashville.

It's game 5. Smashville is banned. Player 1 can't pick Town and City. There are now Final Destination, Lylat, Duck Hunt, Battlefield available, with the inclusion of the new stage, this list gets bigger. Melee survives on DSR + No Bans. This means the final game has only 4 choices as well. Two stages aren't allowed, DSR forbids it. If I'm playing Marth, and I've won on Yoshi's Story and FD, I have to go to either Fountain of Dreams, Pokemon Stadium, Battlefield or Dream Land 64. But in Smash 4, I can go BACK to my first stage I won on, which was Battlefield.

Melee survived with 6 stages

We can survive with 7-8.

 

[Radical Larry]

We can survive with 7 to 8, yes, but it'd be extra health to give us 10 to 12. And I actually can somewhat agree with you on the whole post.

But with Melee, it has 6 stages, but 2/3 of the stages are just variations of the same concept (Battlefield, Fountain of Dreams, Yoshi's Story and Dreamland 64), and the only two more unique stages are Pokemon Stadium and Final Destination.

If Melee can have dilated variations of their stages, this game, like I said before, should have the same.

 

[Routa]

*cough* FLSS *cough*

 

[Mario766]

Fountain of Dreams, Yoshi's Story and Battlefield are variations, yes, but they have differences that change things. Yoshi's has massively small blast zones, and also Randall. It also has wall jumpable walls all the way down,helping some characters more than others. Battlefield has ledges that would make a Wii U player cry more than our own Battlefield. Fountain of Dreams has platforms that rise and fall and also disappear, leading to trip-ups in combos that hurt and help depending on the height of them.

What stages can be added to the 7-8 that would make the stage list better?

Delfino, Castle Siege and Halberd were tried and decided to be removed to promote healthier play. Other stages were removed because they were too chaotic, and others had very little to no support because of how they would change playstyles if they were struck to.

 

[Radical Larry]

Fountain of Dreams, Yoshi's Story and Battlefield are variations, yes, but they have differences that change things. Yoshi's has massively small blast zones, and also Randall. It also has wall jumpable walls all the way down,helping some characters more than others. Battlefield has ledges that would make a Wii U player cry more than our own Battlefield. Fountain of Dreams has platforms that rise and fall and also disappear, leading to trip-ups in combos that hurt and help depending on the height of them.

What stages can be added to the 7-8 that would make the stage list better?

Delfino, Castle Siege and Halberd were tried and decided to be removed to promote healthier play. Other stages were removed because they were too chaotic, and others had very little to no support because of how they would change playstyles if they were struck to.

Alright, you got me on the first part, and I know about the differences; the main layout is basically the same, just with different elements.

As for the additional stages, a stage like Mushroom Kingdom U can be additionally viable without breaking anything. It only has two hazards within the stage, both of which can be defeated with ease or avoided. While Nabbit may be somewhat of a valid argument for banning, he is just part of an otherwise balanced stage.

Then there's Mario Circuit 8, which is the most balanced of all of the transitional stages due to having the most balanced walk-offs and a permanent main platform that doesn't switch positions. While it has a predictable hazard with the cars, the cars do not really disrupt play since they deal lower KB than normal.

Of course, I can argue about Kongo Jungle 64 if needed.

 

[Mario766]

Mushroom Kingdom U has multiple problems. The first variant that you start on is massive, slower characters will get circle camped by fast characters who feel like timing out. Rock Candy Mountain has both the water jets, and the urchin which kills decently early and can lead to random throw kills off Urchin. The jets lead to additional platforms and can extend combos if you're caught off-guard. You have screw-top Tower, which moves, having the same issue as the bottom platform in Peach's Castle, leading to the bottom section being vastly superior, and if the ledge is above solid ground, you can't grab it leading to some recoveries being gimped as they have to incur landing lag. The final variation has a huge gap, leading to people waiting things out, kinda like on Delfino Plaza or Pokemon Stadium in Melee. Nabbit is also just a nuisance that leads to the stage not being competitively viable.

Mario Kart 8 has massive amounts of variations, most with their problems. Most either have a gap in between, Shy Guys, walk-offs. Shy Guys do 10 percent and can kill at 135 on the Finish Line variation, which is actually rather big. There's also the random glitch through track into death which I think was fixed, but was big. You still have the track as a hazard, leading to combo extensions.

Kongo Jungle 64 has circle camp issues, but is a decent option. I'd argue for Halberd/Delfino first though.

 

[snuffysam]

Alright, you got me on the first part, and I know about the differences; the main layout is basically the same, just with different elements.

As for the additional stages, a stage like Mushroom Kingdom U can be additionally viable without breaking anything. It only has two hazards within the stage, both of which can be defeated with ease or avoided. While Nabbit may be somewhat of a valid argument for banning, he is just part of an otherwise balanced stage.

Then there's Mario Circuit 8, which is the most balanced of all of the transitional stages due to having the most balanced walk-offs and a permanent main platform that doesn't switch positions. While it has a predictable hazard with the cars, the cars do not really disrupt play since they deal lower KB than normal.

Of course, I can argue about Kongo Jungle 64 if needed.

Which two hazards are you talking about for Mushroom Kingdom U? The Ice, the Spikeballs, or Nabbit? Or are you counting Nabbit as separate? IMO, my main problem with the stage is the center-stage gap that appears on one of the forms and the outrageously high platforms that the vines create. Both temporary, but it certainly doesn't help convince people who want a conservative stage list. There's also the issue that, unlike Castle Siege, the order of the transitions is completely random. You can't really know what form you'll go to more than a few seconds in advance.

Everything you say about Mario Circuit 8 is correct, but you're neglecting something. Whenever I play on the stage (casually, mind you, so take this with a grain of salt), I find that the bigger issue is the ceiling section of the stage. When transitioning, the ceiling deals massive damage, and when stationary, it can be used as a cave of life. It doesn't ruin the stage, but I don't think it's as neutral as you say it is.

I don't see anything specifically wrong with Kongo Jungle though. It's pretty big, and it COULD make the game unbalanced, but I think it's worth a try at least once.

 

[ArikadoSD]

Fourth: Miiverse is, for all intents and purposes, a clone of BF. Same blastzones, same size, same plats.

nitpicking but miiverse has considerably wider platforms

for example a sheik sitting on the edge of the side platforms (towards centre stage) can sweetspot usmash someone standing on the edge of the upper platform, that doesn't happen on bf/dl.

for all other intents and purposes they're the same however.

 

[Radical Larry]

Which two hazards are you talking about for Mushroom Kingdom U? The Ice, the Spikeballs, or Nabbit? Or are you counting Nabbit as separate? IMO, my main problem with the stage is the center-stage gap that appears on one of the forms and the outrageously high platforms that the vines create. Both temporary, but it certainly doesn't help convince people who want a conservative stage list. There's also the issue that, unlike Castle Siege, the order of the transitions is completely random. You can't really know what form you'll go to more than a few seconds in advance.

Everything you say about Mario Circuit 8 is correct, but you're neglecting something. Whenever I play on the stage (casually, mind you, so take this with a grain of salt), I find that the bigger issue is the ceiling section of the stage. When transitioning, the ceiling deals massive damage, and when stationary, it can be used as a cave of life. It doesn't ruin the stage, but I don't think it's as neutral as you say it is.

I don't see anything specifically wrong with Kongo Jungle though. It's pretty big, and it COULD make the game unbalanced, but I think it's worth a try at least once.

The spikes that fall down and Nabbit of course; are there more?
And also, you actually get a good indicator of what the stage will change to depending on what the background has. And the vine and center part of the stage being missing aren't necessarily bad for the stage; the vine fences in the gap that the stage has, figuratively, because you can go on the platforms to just get to the other side, thus disallowing potential projectile camping and spamming.

I actually know a lot about the ceiling portion of the stage, but there's the fact that the ceiling (as a hazard) can be tech'd to avoid the damage and knockback. As a normal ceiling, it is actually so incredibly high that you will get a good chance for a horizontal or lower blast line KO, even though there is a "cave of life" with it. The "cave of life" isn't even much of a big deal because you still have parts of the stage that you can still KO your opponent with, and most KOs are side or lower KOs for this game. So even with the ceiling as a ceiling, not a hazard, the cave of life portion isn't that bad. It's also very temporary, so it is not like it will assign a specific style of play for opponents, since some characters like Bowser can still KO normally, even if they have U-Throw combos. Bowser is an example of a character who can still horizontally or meteor KO opponents even with the ceiling.

Meta Knight also has options outside the ladder of death leading into his Up B, so saying MK is going to be affected is also neglecting his other options. Same with Sonic, Sheik and ZSS, heck, even all other top tiers.

 

[Mario766]

The Urchins are also a pretty big factor, as they can be used for certain death if you can throw into them as they kill Mario around ~120

 

[snuffysam]

It's random which hazards appear on which section. If the Beanstalk appears on the Meringue Clouds section, yes, it will help, but it causes problems when it appears on other sections.

Also, pretty sure teching won't keep you from taking damage from stage hazards. Knockback, yes, but not damage.

 

[Radical Larry]

It's random which hazards appear on which section. If the Beanstalk appears on the Meringue Clouds section, yes, it will help, but it causes problems when it appears on other sections.

Also, pretty sure teching won't keep you from taking damage from stage hazards. Knockback, yes, but not damage.

Teching the top part of the stage in Mario Circuit 8 when it's at its ceiling hazard formation negates damage, since it is also a wall. It happens on the Great Cave Offensive, which is loaded with hazards, which are prime examples of techable hazards (even though the stage is banned, I'm putting it out).

 

[snuffysam]

Teching the top part of the stage in Mario Circuit 8 when it's at its ceiling hazard formation negates damage, since it is also a wall. It happens on the Great Cave Offensive, which is loaded with hazards, which are prime examples of techable hazards (even though the stage is banned, I'm putting it out).

Ah, ok then. Still, you didn't make a thread about why we need a more liberal stagelist. You made a thread about why we need more stages specifically. It still seems like your bigger concern is stage variety, not stage number.