The Difference Between A GOOD Player and a GREAT Player

[kyoskue]

Today I've got a thread prepared to get everyone to think a little bit, especially those of you who are newly interested in playing games on a competitive level.
Rather than simply talk about our game's mechanics, today I'd like to hear anything that anybody has to say on the subject of US as a competitive community. This primarily concerns Smash and other fighting games, but with a little tweaking the contents should at least be somewhat applicable to most any competitive game or sport.
And one final disclaimer: This isn't meant to be some crazed outcry of Doomsday for competitive Smash or anything, its merely the perspective of a longtime gamer and fighting game enthusiast.

With all of that out of the way, onto the topic at hand:
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So I've been around the Smash Bros. and general fighting game community for the better part of 20 years now, and by this point I have noticed a few trends that have been exasperated by the vast dissemination of information available on the internet... and a number of them are not healthy for the growth of these games.
Thankfully they're all very similar and related to the same root cause, so they all share the same general vaccine:
Us as a community of competitive people becoming better at informing newcomers how and why to expand our game and get us out of our comfort zones, rather than simply being content to copy each other.

There have always been (and always will be) a large number of players choosing characters based solely on tier listings over their playstyle preferences; and while I personally wish that people would stay more true to themselves rather than "sell out" for a "better" character to increase their odds of winning, in the end its an individual's choice and I can respect that.
This is a perfectly valid (if somewhat misinformed) way to play, and easily spreads without the internet's help anyway.
Now what actually IS kind of a big problem are the people that are new to the scene that tend to do this in droves, flocking to higher tier characters while having literally ZERO idea of what the term tier means or WHY that character is high tier in the first place. Err, before I get myself into hot water; its not necessarily the players themselves that are the problem exactly, but rather the way in which they are going about and introducing themselves to the competitive scene. The way in which they learn to do difficult swimming maneuvers like the Butterfly Stroke before even getting their own feet wet, if you will.

What I mean here is that 90% (note: NOT an actual statistic) of newly competitive players simply look up information and videos online from superior players in order to better themselves with a shortcut (that may or may not work for them), rather than ACTUALLY learn the game themselves. Again, this isn't necessarily a bad thing so long as its coupled with training and the desire to steadily improve your whole game, except that its way too easy to replace legitimate self-improvement with merely mimicking other players.
Too often it becomes the player's sole source of improvement. The vast number of players that I have come across; both online and in real life, simply look up tutorials on how to do specific technical actions and they think thats good enough, but they never REALLY figure out the applications or limitations of said actions.
This is just an obvious example, but try going onto "For Glory" and 99/100 Luigis/Diddys will repeatedly run straight in for down throw combos. And they'll mess them up because they don't understand DI or how to read and anticipate other players. And they will cry foul and resort to low brow expressions of communication before quitting in a huff.
Sure; you can just laugh off their ignorance, but whether you actually consider them a part of the community or not you've still got to understand that they learned their tricks from us. They still popped their head in and got the wrong idea about what really matters in the game, and none of us bothered to correct them.
Even if its Luigi and Diddy's most reliable source of damage, simply fishing for the same couple of actions repeatedly will not yield you good results in the short term and in the long run EVERYONE is going to become accustomed to avoiding this, and all that you will have succeeded in doing in the end is make everyone even more aware of how to best avoid your character's greatest strengths.

Now don't get me wrong, its great that we live in an age where people can share strategies and techniques so quickly, but the ease in which players can learn these things is itself causing a form of stagnation.
Most players are simply sucking up what others find out without putting forth their own efforts into helping the community develop their character. The fanbase is essentially copying itself endlessly without actually putting anything new in, a snake devouring its own tail without end.
Introducing new blood into a game is supposed to keep it alive, to allow new players to come into the fray and take up the mantle of those whom came before them, each generation bringing its own unique improvements and techniques to the table.
In the past this was rarely an issue, but Smash's popularity is ever growing, and online play and multimedia tutorials are introducing a new age of younger players to these tricky concepts without really laying down any framework. All of these "lazy" players only take the time to learn techniques discovered by others, then endlessly practice them until sheer repetition keeps it in their skillset, rather than actually know what the heck they're doing.

Simply copying an amazing player DOES NOT make you a GREAT player. It doesn't even make you a GOOD player.
All that it does in the end is cause you to stunt your own potential growth, and turn you into a pale imitation.
It makes you lose sight of the most important aspects of the game: the fundamentals.
I see so many people online consistently Self Destructng in ridiculous ways or leaving themselves stupidly open in an obvious manner, yet having decent to great actual tech skill, They literally have NO IDEA how to ACTUALLY play the game, and are merely emulating something that they've seen win before without really understanding it.
As they say: All style, no substance.

A truly great player doesn't even really need to use combos to be successful.
They understand the game on such an intricate level that they can make the most amateurish mistakes constantly and STILL come out on top. Playing in counterproductive ways can actually be very useful at high level play because everybody has certain expectations of what is going to happen, and throwing those expectations out the window can itself be considered the ultimate mind game.
And in a deliciously ironic twist we essentially have the low and mid-level players trying so much harder to play at a "high level of play" than those that actually DO play at the top competitive level. At that ultimate level it is your ability to read your opponents and your uniqueness of play that separates you from the crowd of millions that are the real keys to success, rather than manual dexterity and strict memorization. That is why errors of miscalculation are responsible for many, many, MANY times more match outcomes than simple execution error.
Of course those other two play an extremely important role in the game as well, but its like knowing how to read music and play an instrument without knowing how to make YOUR OWN music.
Sure, you can maybe play pretty well, but you'll never make it big and you'll forever be known as that "one homage band out of hundreds" rather than the next big thing.
THAT is what you will lose out on when you dedicate yourself to becoming another's shadow:
You will ALWAYS be stuck behind them, simply coasting along on their coattails.

These halfhearted and misguided attempts to play on a competitive level really add nothing to the community, and it can even detract from it by making certain strategies become so prevalent that everyone becomes weary of them, and their lack of dedication often causes ridiculous outcry over simple matters.
Diddy Kong garners so much ire due to his ease of utility, but rather than try to help develop other characters to Diddy's level most players are content with either simply switching mains to him or brandishing pitchforks and decrying the game's balance.
We have too many people playing "follow the leader" in our community, and not enough people REALLY invested into developing the game. We have characters declared nearly unusable without thoroughly exploring their options, and the community is content to let these "bottom dwellers" rot.

I think that a big part of what causes this is everyone's suggestion to pick one or two characters and stick with them, rather than getting a taste for the entire game.
Obviously its a good idea once you've actually gotten good at the game to an extent and want to take yourself to the next level, but I think that most players choose to limit their options and specialize too quickly when they're still at a stage where they could learn significantly more by simply selecting random more often. Learn every characters' basics and how the engine affects them, and see if you can push the ones that you enjoy the most into new territory.
We need to step outside of our comfort zones from time to time, because if we never do this then the same characters will always dominate the top of the game and there will never be any real tier shake-ups. The game will stagnate along with the playerbase.
And for those of you who are afraid of setting out on your own path for fear of failure...
So long as you are exploring the game on your own, even if you end up "discovering" something that's already common knowledge or find a neat trick that nobody else cares about, don't sweat it. At least you gleamed some idea of the how and the why from personal experience, and thus gained a more intimate knowledge of the game.
And that's what really matters when it comes to bettering yourself as a player.

TLDR, the points that I'm trying to make are as follows:
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-Be your own player.
Learn from others, but develop yourself and the community through your own efforts.
-Experiment with the cast and see if you can mesh well with a more underdeveloped character.
Chances are pretty good that even if you can't master that character that you'll at least gain more wins through everyone's sheer unfamiliarity with them than if you were simply "Diddy Player #1652" anyway, and maybe YOU'LL be the one that sparks that character's development in the meta.
*Note: Please realize that I'm NOT saying that nobody should play with high tier characters.
I'm just saying to try giving those other guys a chance and maybe you'll end up pleasantly surprised.
-Don't be afraid to relax a bit on the consistent perfection when it comes to combos and techniques, especially when you're first learning them.
They'll become natural reactions over time through regular use and practice, there's no need to give yourself carpal tunnel syndrome by trying to cram a week's worth of experience into a single day. Besides, you could end up burning yourself out and losing interest in the game.
Instead, focus on outplaying your opponent and seeing if you can redefine the character that you play to fit into your own personal playstyle.
-Bring something new to the table.
Even if it doesn't stick in the end, maybe it'll be the start of something major for someone else.
-Lets try to invite people new to the game without first ostracizing them for their lack of skill.
No need to become Social Justice Warriors, but lets be civil, eh?

In closing, I love Smash Bros.
I think that we've got one of the (if not THE) best communities for ANY game series.
Many of us care for each other deeply and readily share our findings to better the community at large... but many more of us are content to just kind of hitch a ride without any real attachments.
While I'll admit that we're not currently seeing any massive amount of negativie impact because of the subject of my discussion, I'm still a bit worried that the influx of new players will lose themselves in the sea of information and miss out on what really matters with ANY game:
Having fun.

On that note, I hope that I've given even a few of you a moment of pause and food for thought, that I made you rethink the reasons that you play this game, if not games in general.

As for discussion on the topic, I'd like to see everyone's opinions of the community as a whole, not just the currently competitive, but the future ones that have yet to reveal themselves to us.
Any ideas for community projects that could help alleviate these things?
Are any of the things that I brought up here even problems that need tending to in the first place?
What can WE do on our end to ensure that Smash continues to grow as a game and a community?

Lets all hear you out.

 

[orochiwolf]

I'm glad you didn't bash any specific group and remained.......slightly neutral toward the group you weren't too fond of.

I, too, believe in creating a unique identity for yourself and making sure that identity is good enough to plow through the rest of the crowd. The thing about "Diddy Player #1652" is that he/she is winning, and is winning constantly; enough to believe that they are not just another Diddy player. I'm not sure if they even care if they can beat ZeRo or not because they consistently take top spots at their local tournaments using that character only.

At least, this is what I see in my local community (southern California). However, I also see those same people go up against professional players, like Larry Lurr, for example, and get absolutely demolished. I would think to myself, "Why is it that I lose against 'Diddy Player #1652' but he doesn't?" Granted, I could beat that player if he used any other character, but it's when they're Diddy is when I lose.

So I see that both they and I are both "good" players and not "great" players. We have no competition toward the likes of professional players and it motivates me to find out what I can do for myself to learn what the pros have learned. It is nice to watch their videos, like you said, and learn, but the true learning comes from practicing on your own, understanding why the techniques are effective, and creating your own flavor in outputting the techniques.

For example, everyone knows that Diddy can DownThrow --> UpAir, or that Megaman can DownThrow --> ForwardAir, or that Sonic can UpThrow --> Spring --> ForwardAir, but nobody will know our unique playstyles in approaching and successfully executing the combos. That's what many players need to strive for.

 

[kyoskue]

Thanks... I think?

Heh, I tried to remain completely neutral (obviously not possible, but ces't la vie) about the whole thing, and its not that I'm... not too fond of them.
I can see that a lot of these players are just starting out their career and they don't really know HOW to make more informed choices on the game. They see tier lists and high tier characters place well so they make what they think is an informed choice... but it merely acts as another obstacle forming part of a much larger barrier that the community needs to learn to work round.

I feel that more players need to realize that matchups and individual playstyle factor into any match's outcome significantly more than manual dexterity and repetitious training, and this horde of wannabe competitive players best exemplify this.

 

[Meek Moths]

great players can: predict spotdodge, punish spotdodge, perfectly perfect shield, tech

i think this is what sets apart good and great players, yes it's that simple.

 

[mega4000]

you don't need a big topic to tell the difference. The player doesn't need to study the game to be good, the only thing that matters here are results. If a player lose to crappy players, but wins against some pros then he is just a good player. A great player wins tournys some times, never lose against crappy players nor drop matches against players that aren't at his level. If you don't have results backing you, you can't be considered yourself a great player, so next time you are playing on public and you drop a game against a random shulk that just spammed counter or some stupid tactic like that, then stop playing yourself for 10 secs and tell yourself that you aren't a great player because a great player would never drop a game against crappy players.

 

[Nobie]

This video isn't about Smash Bros. specifically, but it has a great breakdown as to the difference between beginner, intermediate, advanced, and expert-level players.

To make a long story short, the difference between an advanced player and an expert player (in other words good vs. great) is that the advanced player knows what is optimal, and knows the game inside and out, but is less good when something strange is thrown their way. The advanced player is also somewhat ironically more vulnerable to to beginner and intermediate-level players who don't do what they "should," whereas the expert player can not only recognize these tendencies but also force mistakes from the opponent and take advantage of the fact that the advanced player is predictable by virtue of doing what's "best."

 

[mega4000]

This video isn't about Smash Bros. specifically, but it has a great breakdown as to the difference between beginner, intermediate, advanced, and expert-level players.

To make a long story short, the difference between an advanced player and an expert player (in other words good vs. great) is that the advanced player knows what is optimal, and knows the game inside and out, but is less good when something strange is thrown their way. The advanced player is also somewhat ironically more vulnerable to to beginner and intermediate-level players who don't do what they "should," whereas the expert player can not only recognize these tendencies but also force mistakes from the opponent and take advantage of the fact that the advanced player is predictable by virtue of doing what's "best."

this this this. Just throw a bunch of noobs who know how to play against a player and if he lose to one of them or is to hard to fight one of them then he can't be considered and expert player.

 

[HeroMystic]

This video isn't about Smash Bros. specifically, but it has a great breakdown as to the difference between beginner, intermediate, advanced, and expert-level players.

Alternatively, you can watch a ten minute video that gives the gist: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGtOnGVHtoI

As the topic itself, this just seems to be a thinly veiled attempt to say people hate bandwagoners. I somewhat don't care for it and I disagree with some of the information in the OP.

 

[kyoskue]

@ mega4000
I honestly DON'T think that individual results are "the only thing that matters".
The fact that SO many players are willing to create tutorials and guides to help others means that we're interested in strengthening the community as a whole, which is a good thing. It means that we WANT that new blood at the top, that we're trying to help elevate them. But I think that too many of them are taking shortcuts without actually looking at the long way around to see what else is there on the way.
But I digress, really I think that a recognizable player needs to do an in-depth tutorial video on the basics to stress just how important they are. Maybe a good video breaking down tiers with explanations of placement. That would help make a lot of these players more whole.

And while I mostly agree, "never" is a rather long time.
NOBODY has the capability to ALWAYS give 100%, we're not machines after all. Besides that, what LOOKS like a silly low-level cheese tactic could actually turn out to be making use of some really impressive reads and techs to back it up.
Even the cream of the crop occasionally take a Falcon Punch to the face from time to time.

@ Nobie
I would've commented more, but a lot of the things I said to mega4000 apply here as well.
Good video, and I appreciate your insight.

Alternatively, you can watch a ten minute video that gives the gist: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGtOnGVHtoI

As the topic itself, this just seems to be a thinly veiled attempt to say people hate bandwagoners. I somewhat don't care for it and I disagree with some of the information in the OP.

Fair enough, but I assure you that was never my intention.

While we are talking about potentially the same group, a bandwagoner is someone that literally hitches a ride on a game while its popular, and then drops it when things start to go downhill.
And certainly, a large portion of these new players are destined to fall under this banner... but I think that we as a community should work towards mitigating the... "casualties" of this effect.
We can help make the place more inviting than it already is, and I don't think that it would hurt if more of us were to work on expanding the tech skill of lower tiers to expand the professional scene in the long run, rather than focus on keeping the tier list the same by flocking to the same 10 characters.

I honestly don't see what good a tier list provides.
It doesn't tell you why these characters are better than others, it doesn't give matchup information, and in the end gives such limited insight into the game that it just gets abused.
When we say "these guys are good, these ones are bad" we are essentially telling new players to limit their playstyle in order to secure wins, but we're not even sure WHY these characters are considered better ourselves, We're not thoroughly exploring the game, we're basically playing by our own house rules (or at least suggesting them very heavily) and; purposely or not, end up keeping the tier lists solidly in place.
Maybe I'm wrong and the bottom of the barrel REALLY ARE utter garbage... but I don't think that its a bad idea to give them the effort to try and bring them up.
The community should be more interested in cultivating a desire to explore the game's depths rather than just laying down vague instructions on how to increase your win count. That may be the ultimate destination, but it shouldn't be the only goal.
I've always been a firm believer that those who measure their success by looking down at all of the people below them aren't doing it right. Being better than the faceless masses means nothing, and its not really a goal. You keep looking up and try to become better than the people that are above you or on your level. Its a more healthy take on self-improvement, and it gives you clear goals, and its something that a lot of these players are missing by just focusing on certain aspects of the game.

 

[Raijinken]

The OP sums up a lot of my feelings on the matter. Anecdotal support:

I've been playing every Smash game since each game's release, probably thousands of hours into each game, plus hundreds into Minus and PM. I don't regularly compete in tournaments, I don't make guides, I can't stream, etc etc I'm average. A friend of mine started getting into Smash (on the 3DS as it's the only system he has for it), and promptly started jumping into the pro strats, watching good players show off Palutena, Megaman, and Kirby. He learned the theory behind all sorts of cool tricks, but to date can't take a game off of me when I play random. He's got a solid grasp of technique, but whether it's my experience or his inexperience, I still come out on top relying almost solely on basics that I discovered on my own for each character.

Both types of mastery go a long way towards success, but ultimately, you can't make up for a lack of foundational skill with a surplus of tech skill and theory. Those are how you go from good to great, not how you get from nothing to good.

 

[ActionShot]

This is a great thread. I started playing smash seriously with the 3ds version, so I've only been at it for a few months, but I think something that's really helped me grow as a player has been my character choice. Instead of flocking to a high tier character, for months I played pretty much just Robin and Zelda. I really feel that because I played Zelda a lot it's helped me improve way more than if I chose a higher tier. Because of all of Zelda's flaws, I had to really improve my fundementals to get any results with her. Since I improved my fundementals by playing Zelda when I first started toying around with high tiers, notably Rosalina, it felt like training wheels had been taken off. I'm still applying the fundementals I learned by struggling with Zelda, but it's easier to get results.

I can't claim to be an amazing player by far yet, but I really feel like the months spent with Zelda made me into a much better player than I would be if I spent all that time with a high tier, and that's why she's still my favorite character to play.

 

[Purin a.k.a. José]

That was a great read! Your thoughts are quite similar to mine. I respect the "Play to Win" style, but I seriously can't get over how some players just go playing with the High Tier characters without knowing what to do with them. If those players try to play this way, with the Hoo-Haah and everything, they will become more and more predictable. Even the Higher-Level Players, in that regard. Now, for a controversial opinion: this actually makes the low-tier characters BETTER in a way. Let's see Mango. Jiggly was much less played back at the Melee meta in 2001-2008 (correct me if not, I'm not a veteran. Quite a newcomer). And then Mango came with her and Puffed everybody. Why? Nobody expected Jigglypuff. The results are that she become a Top-Tier character. Even Sheik at Melee 2001-2006. She was the Toppest Tier, but Fox was actually MUCH better, now being the Top-Tier along Falco. The "Lower"-Tier characters can be less predictable than the Best ones, because of their little presence.

 

[Pippin (Peregrin Took)]

I think you hit the nail on the head; learn from others but make it your own.

I learned from watching mew2king's melee peach how to take advantage of 3ds/wii u peach's aerials better but ultimately I never abandoned the way I normally played her because it worked for me. My other mains, dark pit and miis, don't have a ton of exposure (especially swordfighter) so I've had to think more about how to use them effectively and have actually learned to use them well.

 

[ChikoLad]

This video isn't about Smash Bros. specifically, but it has a great breakdown as to the difference between beginner, intermediate, advanced, and expert-level players.

To make a long story short, the difference between an advanced player and an expert player (in other words good vs. great) is that the advanced player knows what is optimal, and knows the game inside and out, but is less good when something strange is thrown their way. The advanced player is also somewhat ironically more vulnerable to to beginner and intermediate-level players who don't do what they "should," whereas the expert player can not only recognize these tendencies but also force mistakes from the opponent and take advantage of the fact that the advanced player is predictable by virtue of doing what's "best."

By that logic, I'm an expert Rosalina player, as I play Rosalina differently than everyone else and it tends to win me a lot of matches, particularly in match-ups that are perceived as "bad" for Rosalina, leading me to feel like these match-ups really are a lot more positive for her than people like to believe.

HOWEVER, I believe "expert player" just...SOUNDS like way too high a praise for me, especially since I currently can't play the game as much as I'd like nor have I ever had the ability to enter tournaments or anything.

I believe an expert player to be one who is skilled in the fundamentals of their game's meta, has consistently quick dexterity and cognitive power, and knows the optimal ways in which to use their characters of choice, but still thinks outside the box both in terms of innovating the characters they always use, and in terms of trying out new characters and seeing if they can add a new flavour to them to improve public interpretation of a character, leading to better players of that character all around.

 

[Meek Moths]

another thing "great" players do is that they dont make mistake when pressin buttons.

like me, i use pro controller and sometimes when i wanna do aerial i dont tilt the stick enough so i do fair instead of dair or uair. this could be prevented if i used the cstick for airials.oh welll

 

[kyoskue]

another thing "great" players do is that they dont make mistake when pressin buttons.

like me, i use pro controller and sometimes when i wanna do aerial i dont tilt the stick enough so i do fair instead of dair or uair. this could be prevented if i used the cstick for airials.oh welll

Is the Gamecube controller really that much better?
I've done this a few times, but its pretty rare and never cost me a match.

Still, I don't ever recall doing the wrong aerial in Melee/Brawl like I have here, so maybe.

 

[KFrosty]

The thing is, assuming that the only way to get good is by using only the tier list is where a lot of people go wrong. I still remember that when I fist played smash bros Melee, I used Fox, Marth, and Shiek without knowledge of the tier list, and hated playing as them. However, when I first started getting good in the game is when I learned Roy (Who iirc is like 4th from last on the tier list), even though I couldn't beat my friend's Falco, Roy taught me the basics of the game in general, because of how fun he was to play as. Eventually I gravitated towards Dr. Mario, and he ended up being my main, which when I fought my friend, was an even match for us.

If I had made the assumption that the only way to get good was playing the top tier characters, then I would've given up smash bros altogether! However, static tier list do help you understand how good your character is overall (as no matter what I did in Melee, my Melee Roy couldn't beat his Falco, but Project M did him right!). So my advice to any newbies is to just play the game and have fun! Once you feel like you're good enough, THEN look at the tiers.

 

[mega4000]

By that logic, I'm an expert Rosalina player, as I play Rosalina differently than everyone else and it tends to win me a lot of matches, particularly in match-ups that are perceived as "bad" for Rosalina, leading me to feel like these match-ups really are a lot more positive for her than people like to believe.

HOWEVER, I believe "expert player" just...SOUNDS like way too high a praise for me, especially since I currently can't play the game as much as I'd like nor have I ever had the ability to enter tournaments or anything.

I believe an expert player to be one who is skilled in the fundamentals of their game's meta, has consistently quick dexterity and cognitive power, and knows the optimal ways in which to use their characters of choice, but still thinks outside the box both in terms of innovating the characters they always use, and in terms of trying out new characters and seeing if they can add a new flavour to them to improve public interpretation of a character, leading to better players of that character all around.

If you don't enter to tournys, you can't consider yourself an expert player. People can beat their group of friends, or some random people on for glory, but competitive scene is another level completly.

 

[ChikoLad]

If you don't enter to tournys, you can't consider yourself an expert player. Sorry but nope, maybe you can beat your group of friends, or some random people on for glory, but competitive scene is another level completly.

Did you even read a word of what I said? If you did, you'd see why your post there was a bit unnecessary.

 

[mega4000]

Did you even read a word of what I said? If you did, you'd see why your post there was a bit unnecessary.

its not an attack. Read my pm, I'm not attacking you .
Edit: There, I edited it to sound less agresive.

 

[ChikoLad]

its not an attack. Read my pm, I'm not attacking you .
Edit: There, I edited it to sound less agresive.

But I literally said I'm NOT an expert player at this current moment and time (though I frankly don't think any Rosalina mains are right now). You're saying that I should challenge someone who is allegedly the fifth best Rosalina in a certain region, but I never made a claim that I was on some kind of regional level. My problem wasn't your tone, it's that you responded to me as if I said the exact opposite of what I actually said.

Normally I would accept the challenge regardless, but as I said in my original post, I really don't have the time to play this game right now.

 

[GdspdUblkprzdnt]

This is an issue I've more or less been trying to address as I've begun to run a small tourney series in my area. I make sure our events are more of a think tank than anything and always touch base with our "weaker" members, trying to make sure they're learning process is conscious, self monitored and organic. A community is only as good as its weakest members and if we let these flowcharties to run rampant through the streets instead of extending a hand then us in the "intermediate" range will have no one under us to push us outwards into the upper echelons.

 

[Meek Moths]

Is the Gamecube controller really that much better?
I've done this a few times, but its pretty rare and never cost me a match.

Still, I don't ever recall doing the wrong aerial in Melee/Brawl like I have here, so maybe.

i believe gc controller is better. many people also said that the pro one is more sensitive and i can confirm that.

it could also be caused by input lag. that happens seldom in 4glory.

 

[mega4000]

But I literally said I'm NOT an expert player at this current moment and time (though I frankly don't think any Rosalina mains are right now). You're saying that I should challenge someone who is allegedly the fifth best Rosalina in a certain region, but I never made a claim that I was on some kind of regional level. My problem wasn't your tone, it's that you responded to me as if I said the exact opposite of what I actually said.

Normally I would accept the challenge regardless, but as I said in my original post, I really don't have the time to play this game right now.

is not a challenge. Maybe I made a missinterpretation, but a sparring partner is a partner to train and share your knowledge. It doesn't matter if you lose, if you are good you will improve no matter what just by playing with a top player constantly and eventually manage to get games from him.

 

[Ffamran]

Note: I probably ended up restating what kyoskue said...

This reminds me of two things: one is the CQC codec from Metal Gear Solid 4: "The CQC soldiers are using nowadays is a pale imitation. They're learning from reading about it. I learned through doing, and there's a world of difference." So, sure, there's so many resources to find combos, techniques, and high level play, but there's two things you can't use resources to find: play style and experience. Replicating someone's play style only gets you so far and without experience, without drilling combo after combo, technique after technique, and learning the ins and outs of the game, it's not much compared to someone who took time to learn from those along with failures, victories, and more. Those two, you have to create for yourself.

Just because something works, doesn't always means it will, especially if people see it a lot and know how to respond: "When some guy comes at me using that cookie cutter imitations of CQC, my body just reacts naturally. That's all." If that's the only thing(s) you know how to do and you don't understand why it works or why it doesn't, then it's almost worthless. Take Fox's Jab cancel, as a hit confirm and knowing when to use it to kill or grab is one thing, but expecting it to always work or using it to build damage isn't using Fox to his full capabilities along with it being really predictable if someone notices that the player is constantly using Jab cancel which could just lead to punishes over and over.

Different play styles and what works or doesn't work with a player is one thing to consider and is part of Bruce Lee's Jeet Kune Do philosophy: "Use only that which works, and take it from any place you can find it". Take 6wX and Seagull Joe or any other players who main the same character and they will play differently. 6wX is an aggressive Sonic while Seagull is less so - he's almost more laid back while 6wX looks like someone owes him a ton of money and he's going to beat the snot out of them for an answer. Diddy's Dtilt to roll or back crawl depends on the player. Some might not even use it at all. It's how the player works and copying just hurts you since it's not your style; it's not your own decision where you know how and why works. It's limiting yourself to what others do and not what you do; from JKD: “Set patterns, incapable of adaptability, of pliability, only offer a better cage. Truth is outside of all patterns". Diddy's D-throw to Uair or Fair? Yeah, people know it works and people know how it works, but if you don't, then it's not going to work that well. Remember when Leffen? used U-throw to Uair to mess with people? That's his own thing which other Diddy players adapted to their play style. They took what he did, made it their own, or sometimes, they didn't even use it at all as they preferred other ways to fight like X using Banana Peels near the ledge to set up spaced Side Smashes or ZeRo using Diddy's Rocketbarrel Boost horizontally and making it a dangerous recovery to challenge. Luigi's D-throw can combo to many things which depends on the player. For example: Boss does D-throw to Dair or Super Jump Punch knowing when it works, so copying that means nothing without know why and when to use it, especially with Super Jump Punch.

With so many resources, we can find so much information and that information being made into your own is what matter; from JKD again: “All knowledge leads to self-knowledge.” Copying is a misuse of information and leads to hollow knowledge and little to no understanding of how the information can be used. People know all about D-throw to whatever with about 90% of the cast, but some characters can't or use D-throw different. Take Greninja who's D-throw isn't really used for comboing compared to U-throw or Falco whose D-throw can be teched or DI'd away or if against a floaty character, just misses leaving for a free punish on a Falco attempting to D-throw to Dash Attack. Let's also mention Dash Attack isn't the only option, but it is an option that should be used on certain characters and certain times. If someone misses a tech, then Dash Attack can be used, but if they tech, it might be better to just feint and then Dash Attack or something else like catching them before they reach the ground with a RAR Bair. Even then, Falco can U-throw to combo with along with F-throw at certain times. It's the understanding and how you play that makes a difference. Some people prefer U-throw over D-throw, some never use F-throw, and some would rather B-throw or F-throw to change stage control instead of comboing out of throws. Some people prefer Utilt over Up Smash, some love catching people with a well-read Side Smash, and some like using Down Smash out of shield. It all depends on the player and how they use their tools based on their knowledge of the game and characters.

 

[kyoskue]

Alright, so at least a few of us feel that we; as a community of intermediate to high level players, should do something to better acquaint this influx of new players with the spirit of the game and its fundamentals, yes?

So does anyone have any ideas for how we could go about doing that?

My own suggestion would be that we create an official Smashboards Youtube channel that collects every available tutorial video under one banner for ease of access. We should include early to intermediate tutorials, as well as videos on battle theory, videos explaining the difference between tier levels and matchups, and explanations of what tier levels actually mean and why these characters are currently placed as such.
Besides that, I feel that we could have more cross-forum communication on our board, I see a lot of users that mostly stick to one or two character boards and don't really know what tricks have been discovered for every character. I feel that we could use some kind all-inclusive hub of tech data for all characters. It would detail every tech and include the previously mentioned video tutorials for convenience.

All in all, I think these additions would be a great benefit to everyone.
No more lurking in your main's board to get the scoop on the latest techs, tournament rankings, or matchup information, as all of that stuff will be available in one easy to navigate space.
And while we're at it we could stand to update our wikis more often and make sure that information contained therein is correct (here's looking at YOU, whoever created that incredibly uninformed Dark Pit page that caused me to perform 2 weeks of research and topic dropping just to kill the false info... yeesh).

 

[KFrosty]

(here's looking at YOU, whoever created that incredibly uninformed Dark Pit page that caused me to perform 2 weeks of research and topic dropping just to kill the false info... yeesh).

I know right? I remember reading that the best aerial move a Little Mac user can utilize is his Uair. His UAIR?!? Are you BONKERS?!?!? It drove me crazy to think some newbie out there was convinced of never using his Nair or his B moves. Ughh...

 

[LunarWingCloud]

Great read. This likely explains why I was rapidly improving with Toon Link but my improvement with Pikachu slowed down. I was inventing my own style with TLink and improving because of that, but for Pikachu who I am proficient with but hit a wall, I got desperate and try to adapt other Pika players' styles into mine and forgot what was making me good as Pikachu to begin with.

I'm ready to continue climbing and improving with both :'3

 

[Raijinken]

Alright, so at least a few of us feel that we; as a community of intermediate to high level players, should do something to better acquaint this influx of new players with the spirit of the game and its fundamentals, yes?

So does anyone have any ideas for how we could go about doing that?

My own suggestion would be that we create an official Smashboards Youtube channel that collects every available tutorial video under one banner for ease of access. We should include early to intermediate tutorials, as well as videos on battle theory, videos explaining the difference between tier levels and matchups, and explanations of what tier levels actually mean and why these characters are currently placed as such.
Besides that, I feel that we could have more cross-forum communication on our board, I see a lot of users that mostly stick to one or two character boards and don't really know what tricks have been discovered for every character. I feel that we could use some kind all-inclusive hub of tech data for all characters. It would detail every tech and include the previously mentioned video tutorials for convenience.

All in all, I think these additions would be a great benefit to everyone.
No more lurking in your main's board to get the scoop on the latest techs, tournament rankings, or matchup information, as all of that stuff will be available in one easy to navigate space.
And while we're at it we could stand to update our wikis more often and make sure that information contained therein is correct (here's looking at YOU, whoever created that incredibly uninformed Dark Pit page that caused me to perform 2 weeks of research and topic dropping just to kill the false info... yeesh).

The only issue with that is, by nature of humans making videos about these techniques for tutorial, we're still influencing playstyle.

While I realize it may be very counter to the "prepare for competition" goal, to some people, honestly I find that a very good way to learn fundamentals is to play single player, ideally going after all of the challenges or whatever. Even something as simple as learning to avoid Master Core's attacks on high difficulties teaches players to look for certain animations and dodge (applies to every matchup, especially against heavyweights). They teach survival, teching, how certain attacks work, and all sorts of things. They also can provide a very distinctive checklist that can show how you're progressing - a player who beats 9.0 without dying, while maybe lacking the advanced skills to compete strongly, has at the very least mastered the basics of movement, safe attacking, and survival.

Of course, if "go play single player" is too anti-tryhard for people, we can still draw from that idea and make a checklist, or our own set of "tutorial challenges" as it were. Tying that to your video idea, we could basically make a checklist and then videos demonstrating each goal. Checklists could be general, as well as character-specific (not unlike, say, progression-based achievements). I'll write some examples below (obviously ideas of what constitutes an "easy" or "hard" technique will vary by player, this is just for example):

General:
Easy:
Spot-dodge an attack.

Medium:
Tech a spike while already on the ground.

Hard:
Perform a Perfect Shield

Expert:
Perform a Perfect Pivot


Character Specific - Link:
Easy:
Land both hits of your Forward Smash.

Medium:
Use the Hylian Shield to block a strong projectile. (This is one that's very easy to perform but requires character-specific knowledge of how Link works)
Use the Clawshot to hook an edge from a distance.

Hard:
Spike a character offstage with your down-air.

Expert:
Perform the Hyrule Jump (or Reverse Hyrule Jump) using Bombs.

The general skills would, ideally, be techniques and basic abilities that apply to everyone. The character ones would be more finnicky but would range from "here's how this move can work" to teaching character-specific (or rarer) abilities, such as wall-jumping or hoohah-ing. Character-specifics could also include side-goals for doing techniques with custom moves, etc.

Keeping things at this level, I think, would be useful as it would give people a tangible list of challenges to work on, and would be focused specifically on developing one's arsenal of moves, rather than demonstrating specific playstyles. One thing that kept me locked into meh skill for a long time was focusing on just a handful of moves that, to that point, had been sufficient. When I started trying to learn more tricks with the whole move arsenal, it opened up a lot of room for me to adapt and see new opportunities instead of just waiting for my enemies to open themselves up to an old trick.

 

[Fluidityt]

Today I've got a thread prepared to get everyone to think a little bit, especially those of you who are newly interested in playing games on a competitive level.
Rather than simply talk about our game's mechanics, today I'd like to hear anything that anybody has to say on the subject of US as a competitive community. This primarily concerns Smash and other fighting games, but with a little tweaking the contents should at least be somewhat applicable to most any competitive game or sport.
And one final disclaimer: This isn't meant to be some crazed outcry of Doomsday for competitive Smash or anything, its merely the perspective of a longtime gamer and fighting game enthusiast.
Lets all hear you out.

[DISCLAIMER: Very tired. Not trying to be mean or inflammatory *at all*. Sometimes text comes out wrong due to lack of connotation and inflection that is in oral communication. If it doesn't, disregard this disclaimer :D
]

Fun read! I too have thought about competitive gaming a lot, and in general, life, behavior, and society. (I'm a philosopher).

When one is in the top tier of players pretty much ensures that everyone is on relatively equal footing in regards to knowledge, technical ability, etc. The only thing that differs is how each player presses the buttons in response to the pictures and sounds. In competitive games, we notice patterns and perform trickery as these types of games have eliminated most randomly generated events (even playing field). But honestly, it still comes down to luck / probability (AKA mind games, reads, "covering options"). This is why good players can lose to less experienced players, assuming they still have the technical ability. Great players can still lose to them as well, but it's much less likely.

What you (kyosuke) have is a true passion for games and sport. In doing so, you have projected your own desires and wishes onto the FGC. This is fine, and commendable; we shape the communities and activities that we are involved in--its called living in society. However, you aren't taking into account the desires of all of the other players.

In my experience, people play games because they are fun. Losing games can be fun if you are really interested in it, but winning is typically always more fun versus a similarly skilled opponent. People continue to play because they 1) Do win 2) Know that they could win if they kept playing, 3) Simply enjoy playing regardless of skill/winning/lose (this group is less represented in the competitive scene).

It's basic psychology: games have a reward schedule, and if that schedule stops paying out, then the behavior of playing will become extinct. Everyone plays for their own reasons, and what keeps them coming back for more is also varied. Your post is mostly talking about somewhat poetic vision for the FGC, which I must say is indeed a very nice thing, but not everyone is interested in the games as much as you (and the many others that share your thoughts), or as passionate about them. People with passion for gaming and improvement will naturally veer off into wee hours in the morning trying new things out and improving. But this isn't a prerequisite to being a good (or even a great) player.

Any situation will never be ideal, but as a species we organize into groups of like mind and body to maximize our returns for investment, (or out of necessity). In the smash community, we choose to play with others because we know that they can provide what we crave: a payout. The reasons why someone logs onto FG, or sits next to you in front of that 20" CRT doesn't matter. This is why the scene will never die. Sure, it may get smaller, as we move on to new, novel stimuli, but as long as there are people who want to play Smash, Smash will be played.

It just may not be an ideal environment, with people who are as in love with the game and the process of improvement as others.


Peace and blessings!

 

[energyman2289]

This is a great thread.

 

[kyoskue]

[DISCLAIMER: Very tired. Not trying to be mean or inflammatory *at all*. Sometimes text comes out wrong due to lack of connotation and inflection that is in oral communication. If it doesn't, disregard this disclaimer :D ]

No problem, I'm a tough guy, I can handle it.
On a more important note, go take a rest or a nap or whatever. ;D

Fun read! I too have thought about competitive gaming a lot, and in general, life, behavior, and society. (I'm a philosopher).

When one is in the top tier of players (..) Great players can still lose to them as well, but it's much less likely.

Glad that you enjoyed it, It took a while to put words to my thoughts.

True enough.

What you (kyosuke) have is a true passion for games and sport. In doing so, you have projected your own desires and wishes onto the FGC. This is fine, and commendable; we shape the communities and activities that we are involved in--its called living in society. However, you aren't taking into account the desires of all of the other players.

Fair enough, but I'm not trying to say that we CAN or even SHOULD try to force new players to be competitive. Rather, I want us to help them help themselves make more informed choices on their choice of play.

The constant integration that is randomly matched online play means that any time that any of us play For Glory or whatever that we can be matched up against anyone of any skill level with whatever gaming philosophies they have. Whatever the case may be, all levels of our gaming community have overlap here, and thus I believe that those of us who are veterans of the series have an obligation to help these players follow in our steps.
As it is, a lot of them WANT to get better, but don't currently comprehend what it is that they are missing that allow better players to decimate them, so they look online and find out about tier lists and techs without having the prerequisite knowledge and skill level for these things to be truly applicable. I just want our community to lay out a general road map to better acquaint those who want to grow with a means to do so.
Its nothing more than that.

In my experience, people play games because they are fun. Losing games can be fun if you are really interested in it, but winning is typically always more fun versus a similarly skilled opponent. People continue to play because they 1) Do win 2) Know that they could win if they kept playing, 3) Simply enjoy playing regardless of skill/winning/lose (this group is less represented in the competitive scene).
(..) But this isn't a prerequisite to being a good (or even a great) player.

Sure, but I wasn't really saying that its necessary to play until "Dawn of the Second Day" or anything.
I'm saying that you naturally learn the FEEL of the game's engine through play, simply watching others play in videos will not give you the knowledge you need. By playing on your own you will naturally lean towards specific styles of play and preferred tactics, and simply emulating something that you saw online doesn't guarantee that you'll mesh well with it.

Any situation will never be ideal, but as a species we organize into groups of like mind and body to maximize our returns for investment, (or out of necessity). In the smash community, we choose to play with others because we know that they can provide what we crave: a payout. The reasons why someone logs onto FG, or sits next to you in front of that 20" CRT doesn't matter. This is why the scene will never die. Sure, it may get smaller, as we move on to new, novel stimuli, but as long as there are people who want to play Smash, Smash will be played.

It just may not be an ideal environment, with people who are as in love with the game and the process of improvement as others.

Again, I said it wasn't a "Smash Doomsday" post, but rather that I believe that there are a lot of players out there that took these shortcuts, and when emulating the best doesn't yield the desired results quickly they'll quit and move on to something else.
While not necessarily a bad thing, I feel that plenty of these players DO desire to play better and have the required drive, but not knowing how to get there throws them off.
I liken it to those that want to lose weight, but don't really know how to do so.
They try various exercises and diets, and maybe things work in the short term, but they don't know how to keep that ball rolling. Same concept here.

I want more indepth base knowledge to be more widely available to these newer players to help them make more informed decisions on where to go and how best to do it.
ANY of us here had the potential to drop out of this game series due to any number of reasons while we were learning, and although we kept at it despite anything that got in our way, there's no reason that a lack of introductory knowledge being widely available should count as one of those hurdles.

Peace and blessings!

And you too.
Now go to bed.

 

[Daybreak]

A great player is one that never stops improving, often times they will hit a wall and have to break through it. I remember the first time I was learning wavedashing back in melee and I can tell you it was no easy walk in the park. Eventually I started to grasp it and slowly it became second nature. These complex inputs would eventually become a cakewalk as you could 'wow' and outperform your opponent.

The perfect-pivot (which isn't used that often) and edge-trumping are good examples of great players in smash 4. There will always be new things popping up, even if it is just a new mindset. The moral of the story is never put down your textbook and challenge yourself to pass new tests.

 

[kyoskue]

A great player is one that never stops improving, often times they will hit a wall and have to break through it. I remember the first time I was learning wavedashing back in melee and I can tell you it was no easy walk in the park. Eventually I started to grasp it and slowly it became second nature. These complex inputs would eventually become a cakewalk as you could 'wow' and outperform your opponent.

The perfect-pivot (which isn't used that often) and edge-trumping are good examples of great players in smash 4. There will always be new things popping up, even if it is just a new mindset. The moral of the story is never put down your textbook and challenge yourself to pass the test.

While I was able to master Wave Dashing back in the day and can pull off Perfect Pivots consecutively through sheer determination, the physical tics caused by my Tourette's Syndrome makes doing these things in a tournament setting pretty much impossible, so I've come pretty close to hitting my LITERAL wall.
Hard to become a pro when you have to toss and catch the controller every 30 seconds or so.

 

[Daybreak]

While I was able to master Wave Dashing back in the day and can pull off Perfect Pivots consecutively through sheer determination, the physical tics caused by my Tourette's Syndrome makes doing these things in a tournament setting pretty much impossible, so I've come pretty close to hitting my LITERAL wall.
Hard to become a pro when you have to toss and catch the controller every 30 seconds or so.

You just need a sludge hammer to break down this 'literal' wall ( to make more room for an extra bathroom). I am currently visually impaired to the point to where I have a one dominant eye so I kind of know the feeling you're going through.

When I am playing in a competitive match I don't try to force those techniques out of me, and if I over-think it I often mess up and get punished by the opponent. It isn't easy, but by no means is it impossible.

The most important thing is to have fun, if it doesn't work don't force it.

 

[kyoskue]

Maybe you just need a sludge hammer to break down this 'literal' wall ( to make more room for an extra bathroom). I am currently visually impaired to the point to where I have a one dominant eye so I kind of know the feeling you're going through.

When I am playing in a competitive match I don't try to force those techniques out of me, and if I over-think it I often mess up and get punished by the opponent. It isn't easy, but by no means is it impossible.

The most important thing is to have fun, if it doesn't work don't force it.

Sorry to hear about your sight, but such is life, eh?
Oh well, maybe I can help others surpass my own skill level, I guess I'm good with that.

Agreed.

 

[Daybreak]

Sorry to hear about your sight, but such is life, eh?
Oh well, maybe I can help others surpass my own skill level, I guess I'm good with that.

Agreed.

Maybe that will help you surpass your level. I'm sure there are other smashers going through the same things as you. Poke around and ask for advice, forming a group would be pretty cool. You'd be surprised at how things can change, take some time off of grinding and be a teacher for a bit. Never stop improving.

 

[kyoskue]

Maybe that will help you surpass your level. I'm sure there are other smashers going through the same things as you. Poke around and ask for advice, forming a group would be pretty cool. You'd be surprised at how things can change, take some time off of grinding and be a teacher for a bit. Never stop improving.

How appropriate, I had an idea for starting a "Smash Dojo" training program on GameFaqs sometime ago, but life circumstances kind of got in the way.

Link for anyone that's interested:
http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/633202-super-smash-bros-for-wii-u/70044070

 

[HeroMystic]

The things I agree with in the OP.

-Every player should know the fundamentals first.
-We should always help newer players.
-Misinformation is bad.
-Every character should have their meta developed.

In general, I can see the point of the OP and the fantasy behind it. However, as stated before I don't quite agree with it. I'll explain further.

While we are talking about potentially the same group, a bandwagoner is someone that literally hitches a ride on a game while its popular, and then drops it when things start to go downhill.
And certainly, a large portion of these new players are destined to fall under this banner... but I think that we as a community should work towards mitigating the... "casualties" of this effect.
We can help make the place more inviting than it already is, and I don't think that it would hurt if more of us were to work on expanding the tech skill of lower tiers to expand the professional scene in the long run, rather than focus on keeping the tier list the same by flocking to the same 10 characters.

I honestly don't see what good a tier list provides.
It doesn't tell you why these characters are better than others, it doesn't give matchup information, and in the end gives such limited insight into the game that it just gets abused.
When we say "these guys are good, these ones are bad" we are essentially telling new players to limit their playstyle in order to secure wins, but we're not even sure WHY these characters are considered better ourselves, We're not thoroughly exploring the game, we're basically playing by our own house rules (or at least suggesting them very heavily) and; purposely or not, end up keeping the tier lists solidly in place.
Maybe I'm wrong and the bottom of the barrel REALLY ARE utter garbage... but I don't think that its a bad idea to give them the effort to try and bring them up.
The community should be more interested in cultivating a desire to explore the game's depths rather than just laying down vague instructions on how to increase your win count. That may be the ultimate destination, but it shouldn't be the only goal.
I've always been a firm believer that those who measure their success by looking down at all of the people below them aren't doing it right. Being better than the faceless masses means nothing, and its not really a goal. You keep looking up and try to become better than the people that are above you or on your level. Its a more healthy take on self-improvement, and it gives you clear goals, and its something that a lot of these players are missing by just focusing on certain aspects of the game.

There are players who want to enrich the community, and then there are players that want win. We all come in many different mixes and flavors. We don't want the same thing. In my scene, we're a pretty tight group, and I personally enjoy and love my scene and I look forward to meeting up and supporting them every week. Without them the game wouldn't be nearly as fun as it would be. Wi-Fi is a terrible substitute to personal interaction.

But there are many players, including myself, that want to go out there and win tournaments, and get money.

Tiers exist to define the current perception of the tournament scene. It does not define the game itself, but rather the metagame. It shows what characters players are using to win tournaments, and while that lacks the needed information, it lets the player know who we perceive as the best and worst of this game. Diddy is the best in the game because the hard data is there to prove it. Will a Diddy win every tournament? No. But, when a player chooses someone other than Diddy Kong, they have the right to know that they are, statistically speaking, lowering their chances to win a tournament and even getting into Top 8 by picking a lower tier character. If you want to prove the statistics wrong, you have to work for that.

I've met many players who start off with lower tier characters, then switch to higher tiers. They would play Dedede, Ganondorf, Bowser, DK, Marth, etc., and they would do so because they love the character or love the character's moveset. But after weeks and weeks of practicing, making hard reads, clutching wins, but ultimately losing their grip at getting Top 8 or Top 3, they're forced to make that choice every time to keep trucking with their character, or give up and switch to another an ultimately better character, or quit playing the game. To note, the majority of them switched to higher tier characters.

Personally, I started playing Smash 4 competitively with the goal of being the best Mario main in the US, which is why I have to become better as a player to make up for his disadvantages. I started this idea in Brawl as well back in 2008. Back then, Mario was and still is a low tier character. I went to tournaments and failed. I was merely decent at the game. Not horrible and not great. Probably a mid-level player. I could beat D3s and ICs, but as the player skill became higher and higher, it became tougher to constantly combat them against the disadvantaged MUs. So did I switch characters in Brawl? No. I quit playing the game and went on hiatus for four years until Smash 4 came out. Fortunately, Mario is a great character in this game, so this goal is more bearable.

The other problem with the perception of players only picking the top 10 is that it's simply not true. I personally train my Samus to be tournament viable but she is in no way going to be better than my Mario from statistics alone (even though I can certainly make her work), and other top players at the beginning of this game invested in characters believing in them, but later down the line figured out they aren't going to be the ones that will give them tournament wins. There are even players who invest enough time to train with every single character in the game (which is a huge feat considering there's 51 characters, and it only gets bigger with the upcoming DLC!), but in the end they'll pick the ones they feel comfortable enough will give them the win.

In summary, the big problem I have with this thread is it makes a lot of assumptions on how the metagame should work, rather than the reality of it. Tournament players make a lot of investment and they put a lot of time, effort, and pride into the game. Everyone wants the metagame to grow and develop, and everyone wants to see every character in tournament, but tournaments are an investment and you just have to realize that fighting games are a competition, and if you compete, you obviously want to win. Players, especially top players, have to decide if the investment is worth it.

 

[kyoskue]

Thanks for replying again HeroMystic.

I'll go into more detail on my points through your post.

The things I agree with in the OP.

-Every player should know the fundamentals first.
-We should always help newer players.
-Misinformation is bad.
-Every character should have their meta developed.

In general, I can see the point of the OP and the fantasy behind it. However, as stated before I don't quite agree with it. I'll explain further.

Cool, and thankfully these are my main points that I wanted addressed, so I feel that we see eye-to-eye for the most part.

There are players who want to enrich the community, and then there are players that want win. (...)
But there are many players, including myself, that want to go out there and win tournaments, and get money.

True enough.
My spiel on wanting newer players to put effort into trying to add to the community is more of a request than it is a declaration that all players should follow. Thankfully we have numerous top players that are willing to make videos and tutorials, but I think that the majority of the community could try to commit more time to better integrating new players into the scene.
Just look at the sheer number of entrants at APEX and other recent tournaments; its amazing stuff, and this massive spike in competitive interest should get us to better band together.

Tiers exist to define the current perception of the tournament scene. It does not define the game itself, but rather the metagame. It shows what characters players are using to win tournaments, and while that lacks the needed information, it lets the player know who we perceive as the best and worst of this game. Diddy is the best in the game because the hard data is there to prove it. Will a Diddy win every tournament? No. But, when a player chooses someone other than Diddy Kong, they have the right to know that they are, statistically speaking, lowering their chances to win a tournament and even getting into Top 8 by picking a lower tier character. If you want to prove the statistics wrong, you have to work for that.

I'd like to point out that for the better part of a decade that Gen of SF4 was considered to be pretty much garbage. Come one day that somebody decides to REALLY play Gen well and win a few tournies and he's suddenly bumped up over half the cast.
None of those characters in the tiers actually got better or worse in the meantime. The only thing that changed was that somebody gave a character a chance and REALLY pushed with him.

So far as I can tell, tier lists are more or less a representation of the players using the characters effectively rather than any indication of the actual strengths and weaknesses of the characters themselves.
When easy to use characters have good results then they tend to be high tier. They win more tournaments because of a combination of their skill gate and their effectiveness. Characters that tend to require more risk for less reward end up used less and thus become low tier.
The problem with this ranking system comes in when it basically becomes a list of recommended characters for success. Sure, these top characters have a lot more hard data backing up their credibility, but it is exactly this showcasing that causes more people to pick those characters.

Lets take a theoretical example here:
Mario and Luigi are literal 1:1 copies of each other, and are the only playable characters in the game. At some point a series of players choosing Mario win multiple tournaments in a row, and a tier list eventually forms with Mario as high and Luigi as low.
Now; statistically speaking, more people are likely to choose Mario over Luigi for that perceived edge (even though there really is none), which in turn means that more Marios participating increases his total odds of winning any given tournament.

I know that Smash is more complicated than that, and that different characters have different toolkits better suited to different situations, but its up to the players to make the best of those abilities.
By highly publicizing and referring to a list that essentially says "somebody somewhere does good with this character" it just enforces the tier list even more. It took Brawl players YEARS to see Olimar's potential, but once someone took him seriously he jumped like 15 slots on the tier list. The same thing happened in Melee with Jigglypuff.
If the tier list isn't concrete and only refers to the skill levels of individual players, does it REALLY have any real use to the community, or is it more like a general perception of what has transpired in the tournament scene lately?

I've met many players who start off with lower tier characters, then switch to higher tiers. They would play Dedede, Ganondorf, Bowser, DK, Marth, etc., and they would do so because they love the character or love the character's moveset. But after weeks and weeks of practicing, making hard reads, clutching wins, but ultimately losing their grip at getting Top 8 or Top 3, they're forced to make that choice every time to keep trucking with their character, or give up and switch to another an ultimately better character, or quit playing the game. To note, the majority of them switched to higher tier characters.

Just because someone originally chose a character that was low tier doesn't mean it suited their playstyle well.
I've had friends that love Zelda games so they picked Link originally. Turns out that switching between zoning and melee combat on a dime wasn't a suitable playstyle for them, so they ended up switching to Marth, Captain Falcon, and Zelda to better suit themselves.

Personally, I started playing Smash 4 competitively with the goal of being the best Mario main in the US, which is why I have to become better as a player to make up for his disadvantages. I started this idea in Brawl as well back in 2008. Back then, Mario was and still is a low tier character. I went to tournaments and failed. I was merely decent at the game. Not horrible and not great. Probably a mid-level player. I could beat D3s and ICs, but as the player skill became higher and higher, it became tougher to constantly combat them against the disadvantaged MUs. So did I switch characters in Brawl? No. I quit playing the game and went on hiatus for four years until Smash 4 came out. Fortunately, Mario is a great character in this game, so this goal is more bearable.

Admirable goal, but that's hardly the only difference between Brawl and Smash 4.
If you couldn't deal with Brawl's quirky engine then it doesn't matter WHO you picked, you weren't "really feeling it".

The other problem with the perception of players only picking the top 10 is that it's simply not true. I personally train my Samus to be tournament viable but she is in no way going to be better than my Mario from statistics alone (even though I can certainly make her work), and other top players at the beginning of this game invested in characters believing in them, but later down the line figured out they aren't going to be the ones that will give them tournament wins. There are even players who invest enough time to train with every single character in the game (which is a huge feat considering there's 51 characters, and it only gets bigger with the upcoming DLC!), but in the end they'll pick the ones they feel comfortable enough will give them the win.

Even the absolute best players don't learn or discover every potential tech lieing in each character's repetoire.
That's part of why I recommend people try the underused characters.

In the same vein that an infinite number of monkies slamming on keyboards can eventually produce a copy of Shakespeare, an army of newer players on an underdeveloped character can help find the secrets lieing within. The odds of discovering major game changers vastly increases by doing this.

In summary, the big problem I have with this thread is it makes a lot of assumptions on how the metagame should work, rather than the reality of it. Tournament players make a lot of investment and they put a lot of time, effort, and pride into the game. Everyone wants the metagame to grow and develop, and everyone wants to see every character in tournament, but tournaments are an investment and you just have to realize that fighting games are a competition, and if you compete, you obviously want to win. Players, especially top players, have to decide if it the investment is worth it.

Most of my post was about new players that want to get better, so I think that your views of my words were kind of a bit skewed this whole time anyway.
Glad that we could get that out of the way.