The Custom Laboratory -Nayru's Rejection

[Fernosaur]

This is a thread to list To-Do's in order to further the research on Zelda's custom moves. So far we know her customs appear to be greatly inferior to her default moveset, but new discoveries might prove our initial impressions wrong, so let's all get our lab coats on and try to bring our princess back from the bottom of the well!

Right now we are researching Nayru's Rejection. ​

Thanks to wonderful new information found by @ 「 Derk 」 and complemented by @ BJN39 , we have found possible new uses for this custom move. Nayru's Rejection has a unique windbox and also has more intangibility than Nayru's Love.
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Possible Applications
Nayru's Rejection is Zelda's second Side-B special. It substitutes Nayru's Rejection speed with a bunch of potential follow-ups, and adds a cape effect. Due to the low knockback, it enables Zelda to get free grab combos. It also is a free reset to neutral. It also can help Zelda create opportunities due to the cape effect able to make opponents moves whiff.

It is not a substitute for a oos option. It is used as a kill or combo set up. Due to its slower frame data, it isn't usable as a oos option.
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Frame Stuff

Starting frames of Nayru's Rejection.

First frame of intangibility. She gains intangibility when she extends her leg back.

Reflector actually acts like a reflector now! Pretty sure intangible frames end at this point.
Its intangibility is about 5 frames longer than Nayru's Love making it an interesting approach or counter. For example sometimes if a character is about to throw out a smash, if Zelda throws out Rejection at the right time. She will avoid the smash while still getting the hit in.
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Windbox
It has a very weird windbox, sometimes when it whiffs. The windbox will push your opponent away so you'll be safe.
In some multihitting moves, if you already throw out a Rejection and they hit you have the intangibility frames. It might pop out of the move. Like Zelda's Jab for example.
Also if you Love jump, Love boost, or stand on a moving platform, the windbox and crystal will separate. That needs more testing.

Love Jumping Nayru's Rejection.

Regular Nayru's Rejection for comparison.
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Other
If timed right it will avoid some moves like rest or the K.O Punch. This could be useful but needs more testing

Previous Research

Din's Blaze​

Spoiler: Din's Blaze

TBA

Farore's Squall​

Spoiler: Farore's Squall

Thanks to wonderful new information found by @ 「 Derk 」 and complemented by @ BJN39 , we have found possible new uses for this custom move in order to escape combos. Farore's Squall has a windbox that starts on frame 1, meaning that it could potentially halt advances and stop combo strings. Not only this, but the windbox might be good for gimping and aiding your partner in doubles.

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Possible Applications
​

Farore's Squall is Zelda's second Up-B special. It substitutes Farore's Wind hitboxes with a bunch of potent windboxes, and adds a great length of travel range to the move. Due to these immediate windboxes, Farore's Squall has the ability to push away opponents even as they are attacking Zelda and interrupting the move. This means that she can basically escape from most multihit attacks in the game by attempting to use Squall in the middle of being hit.

​

It must be made clear that the use of Farore's Squall is nearly 100% defensive. While it can be used to gimp certain recoveries and there are some set ups that can net you a guaranteed u-air kill out of Squall, the move itself has a very considerable amount of start up and can be very easily read by other players. This, however, is by no means a substitute for Farore's Wind raw kill power as an OoS option. Squall's capabilities lie in blocking attacks, stopping enemy momentum, and releasing pressure from Zelda, which is something that is impossible for her to achieve by using her vanilla moveset. By using Squall OoS, Zelda can freely push opponents away while retreating to a safe position herself. This is almost impossible to punish because the endlag on Squall is much shorter than Wind. Additionally, due to Squall's windbox coming out on frame 1 and stayin in place until Zelda disappears, a lot of aerial approaches can be halted, interfered or displaced by using Squall in midair and teleporting to the safety of the ground. As we all know, Zelda is very prone to being juggled heavily due to her lackluster aerial options. By researching more about Squall and mastering its defensive uses, we might be able to give her a good option against juggling, pressure, and aerial strings, which are very prominent in this game, specially in the match-ups that are unfavorable for Zelda.

Squall Cancelling and Squall Shield​

Here's a video showing @ 「 Derk 」 's findings on how Squall can be used to interrupt rapid jab combos. It also shows that, when interrupted by getting hit by an attack, Zelda can buffer other moves after the windbox pushes the opponent away. The example provided is a Squall cancelled Phantom Slash.

This is additional information provided by @ BJN39 on the move's technical aspects:

* It still can't exactly be overlooked that it has almost a 45 frame startup. If I'm reading the data correctly though the windbox will last pretty much the entire 45 frames. So an edgeguard attempt might be easily stuffed by the windbox. Of course, the windox doesn't have the same horizontal range as FW standard.

* The initial windbox is literally instant. There's no timers or anything saying what frame it comes out it is actually at the top aside the frame speed modifier.

* Since Standard FW actually uses a frame speed modifier to make its reappear animation SLOWER, and squall doesn't, squall has noticably less endlag (Judging by the multiplier difference, roughly 20% faster.) Combined that with that the reappear hit-box on squall has the same massive range as FW, yeah it may do no damage, but if you hit them with it you should be guaranteed safe.

Match-Up Specific Uses for Squall Cancelling and Shielding
​

After a bit of testing with Squall's frame 1 windbox, we realized it's actually possible for Zelda to escape combos and aerial strings from certain characters that are originally a bad MU for her. The list of characters whose aerial strings have been tested are listed below:

• Diddy's Hoo-Haa can be interrupted by Squall, however, she will still get hit by a bair and fair coming directly from a d-throw. The windbox will still push him back enough for him to be unable to follow up with another bair or fair. At higher percents, using Squall to escape Diddy's d-throw combos is preferable than an airdodge because the initial windbox will prevent him from getting close and Squall's lower cooldown will make it safeish if the Diddy in question tried to take to the air for an u-air. You have to be careful about being read and baited into teleporting to the ground, though. Remember that Squall will make your teleport very visible.
• Ness's fair strings are stopped almost completely by Farore's Squall. Due to the smaller hitboxes on Ness's aerials being dependant on his mobility for strings, Squall can almost nullify his aerial game by pushing him away. While Squall can make connecting some aerials harder for Ness, it won't completely nullify his airgame. Fair strings still have a good chance of comboing at lower percents. The only answer to them is using Squall in a very specific timeframe that could push Ness away to make Zelda retreat safely. This is a bit hard to do but more testing could prove otherwise.
• Peach's shield pressure coming from d-air and n-air can be interrupted by using Squall OoS, however, Zelda must always teleport away from Peach. Squall will push her upwards while she is floating, so if Zelda isn't careful Peach will still be able to get to her and use any aerial as a punish on reappear
• Zamus's UpB can be interrupted and pushed away from Zelda before Zamus can land the final hit, which is her most powerful KO option, both OoS and as a follow up from D-smash and her aerial chains. Using Squall against her will nullify her most reliable finisher. This is exemplified in the following video:
  Spoiler: Squall Shielding against Zamus

These are the tested characters against which Squall cancelling didn't manage to do anything outstanding:

• Sheik's fair strings were nigh unaffected by the windbox, as they seem to be too fast for Zelda to react on time. This could need more testing, but it seems Squall won't really do much against Sheik save for interrupting her rapid jab.
• Rosalina's u-air pressure is entirely unaffected by Squall, due to the initial windbox not affecting Luma in any way. It also doesn't stop her rapid jab if Luma is close to Zelda because of the same reason. It seems to be better to keep Farore's Wind against Rosalina for the killpower against both Rosa and Luma.

Squall Shielding against Special Attacks
​

As mentioned above, the frame 1 windbox will force some attacks to whiff. @ 「 Derk 」 tested out the effects of Squall when opposing all of the roster's special attacks (save for Miis) and their jab combos.

Spoiler: List of Squall's effects on character specials

Cape: It is impossible to cape Farore's Squall. The wind box out-ranges it instantly
Super Jump Punch: Farore's Squall pushes it away before it can connect.
Jab combo: Farore's Squall can escape it.


Green Missile: Can block it at any time. Idk about misfires, didn't check them.
Super Jump Punch: Farore's Squall pushes it away before it can connect.
Luigi Cyclone: Can push away at any time, but to fully block the move you need to be in intangible frames.
Jab combo: Farore's Squall can escape it.


Peach Bomber: Can push away at any time, but to fully block the move you need to be in intangible frames.
Parasol: Can block it at any time. Squall out-ranges it instantly.


Whirling Fortress: Can block at any time. Squall out-ranges it instantly.
Flying Slam: Can block at any time. Squall pushes it away before Bowser can grab.
Bowser Bomb: Very difficult to block from the front, you would need perfect timing and prediction. Easily blocked from behind.
Jab combo: Zelda can push Bowser away before he can land his second hit.


Egg Lay/Tongue move: Can block at any time. Squall will push it away before the command grab can activate.
Yoshi Bomb: Very difficult to block from the front, you would need perfect timing and prediction. Easily blocked from behind.
Egg Roll: Farore's Squall can push it away but it's impossible to stop without taking damage. Too much momentum for it to cancel out.
Jab: Zelda can push Yoshi away before he can land the second hit.


Launch Star: You can freely push it around since it is a non-damaging attack.
Jab: You can push Rosalina away but Luma is unaffected. Impossible to break out of her jab combo when Luma is present. Same goes for her specials.


Clown Kart Dash: Can push away at any time, but to fully block the move you need to be in intangible frames.
Mechakoopa: You can freely push it away with the start up of Squall but if you remain in the same spot it will hit you. If you push it away with the start up then teleport towards it slightly you can blow it away completely. This could see some usage in doubles with Zelda + Bowser Jr to deliver bombs across the stage instantly.
Abandon Ship: Can block at any time. Squall pushes Bowser Jr but not the clown kart.
Jab combo: Farore's Squall can escape it.


Chomp: Zelda can push it away before the command grab can reach her.
Wario Bike: Zelda can block it, but only during the intangible frames.
Waft: Can block it at any time. It instantly out-ranges the move.
Corkscrew: Can block it at any time. It instantly out-ranges the move.


All specials bypass Farore's Squall unless you are in intangible frames.


All specials bypass Farore's Squall unless you are in intangible frames. Monkey Kick can be blocked on startup with perfect spacing but the command grab is un-blockable.
Jab combo: Farore's Squall can escape it.


Hammer: Can block at any time. Squall out-ranges it instantly.
All other specials are either non-damaging or reflected by Nayru's Love. You can freely push them around.


Rising Uppercut: Seems to come out instantly. Squall can block it at any time, but the start up only beats it if you can activate it first (prediction based levels of input timing.)
Jolt Haymaker: Can only block it during intantgible frames.
Straight Lunge: Can block it at any time unless it is fully charged. It's impossible to punish once fully charged.
Jab combo: Farore's Squall can escape it.


Spin Attack: Can block at any time. Squall out-ranges it instantly.
Bombs: Farore's Squall can reflect them back at Link
Jab combo: Farore's Squall can escape it.


Bouncing Fish: Depends on your timing. You need to be in your intangible frames or use the second wind box.
Grenade: On startup or during intangible frames. Can also block with the ending wind box.
Jab combo: Farore's Squall can escape it.


Warlock Punch: Can block at any time. Squall out-ranges it instantly.
Flame Choke and Wizard Foot: Can only block with the intangible frames.
Dark Dive: Can block at any time. Squall out-ranges it instantly.


Screw Attack: Can block at any time. Squall out-ranges it instantly.
All of her other attacks are ranged based so Nayru's can deal with them.


Boost Kick: The first hit can still land but as long as you activate Farore's Squall it prevents the killing hit from landing.
Plasma Whip: Can push it away but due to the range of this move it is impossible to avoid without the intangible frames.
Flip Jump: Only blocks during intangible frames or the ending wind box. It sends ZSS flying high in the air lol.
Jab combo: Farore's Squall can escape it.


Upperdash Arm: Can block at any time. Squall out-ranges it instantly.
Power of Flight and Guardian Orbitals: Non-damaging attacks so you can freely push them around.
Jab combo: Seems harder to escape compared to most jabs but it's possible.


Reflect: Can block it at any time. Squall out-ranges it instantly.
Teleport and Counter: Non-damaging attacks so you can freely push them around.
Jab combo: Extremely easy to escape.


Dancing Blade: Farore's Squall can escape after the first hit.
Shield Breaker: Can push it away but due to it's range you can only block it completely with intangible frames.
Dolphin Slash: Due to the speed of this move you can only block it if you activate Farore's Squall first (Prediction based reaction time required).


Quick Draw: Farore's Squall can only stop this move towards the end due to the momentum this move has at the beginning. Intangible frames can stop it at any time.
Aether and Eruption: Can block it at any time. Squall out-ranges it instantly.
Jab combo: Farore's Squall can escape it.


Elwind: Can block it at any time as long as you are above them. Squall out-ranges it instantly
Other specials are ranged based and handled by Nayru's Love.
Jab: Easily escaped before the fire or wind hit can activate with good DI and buffering.


All specials are ranged based and easy to deal with using Nayru's Love. Recovery is non-damaging so you can easily push it around.
Jab combo: Farore's Squall can escape it.


Inhale: Can block it at any time. Squall out-ranges it immediately.
Flip Hammer: Can block it at any time. Squall out-ranges it immediately.
Final Cutter: Can push it away but the wind blade can still hit you on stage. Offstage it is easy to push away.
Jab combo: Farore's Squall can escape it.


Inhale: Can block it at any time. Squall out-ranges it immediately.
Jet Hammer: Can block it at any time. Squall out-ranges it immediately.
Super Dedede Jump: Can block it at any time as long as you are not under it.
Jab combo: Farore's Squall can escape it.


Drill Rush: Can only block with intangible frames.
Mach Tornado: Can only block with intangible frames.
Shuttle Loop: Can block at any time. Squall out-ranges it immediately.
Jab combo: Farore's Squall can escape it.


Fire Fox/Bird: Can block the start up at any time. The movement part of this move can only be blocked with intangible frames.
Phantasm: Can block the ending at any time. The beginning of this move can only be blocked with intangible frames.
Jab combo: Farore's Squall can escape it.


Skull Bash: Can push at any time but this attack has too much momentum to cancel. Can only block with intangible frames.
Quick Attack: Can block the start up of this move but the movement's damage can cancel Farore's Squall.
Thunder: Can push it away but thunder will still hit you. Can avoid thunder with intangible frames.
Jab combo: Farore's Squall can escape, but its harder than most jabs because of how quick it is.


Flare Blitz: Can only block during the ending of this move due to the large momentum at the beginning. Can block it at any time with the intangible frames.
Fly and Rock Smash: Can block it at any time. Squall out-ranges it instantly.
Jab combo: Farore's Squall can escape.


Extreme Speed: Can push the beginning away but the higher Lucario's rage the harder it is to push the movement portion of this move.
Force Palm: Can only block it with intangible frames due to the range.
Jab combo: Farore's Squall can escape it.


Rollout: Can only block during the intangible frames.
Pound, Rest, and Sing: Can block at any time. Squall out-ranges it immediately.


Shadow Sneak: Depends on your timing. If you see Shadow Sneak coming you can easily block it with intangible frames.
Hydro Pump: Can push the beginning but the movement portion of this attack has too much momentum to block.
Jab: Farore's Squall can escape it.


Arm Rotor: Can block the entire move using the start up and ending wind boxes.
Gyro: Can block it using the intangible frames only. However, you can freely push it around the stage with Farore's Squall at any time.
Robo Burner: Non-damaging attack so you can freely push it around.


Pk Thunder: Extremely gimpable recovery. Farore's Squall coming into contact with Ness makes it very hard for him to recover.
Other specials are magic based and easy to deal with using Nayru's Love.
Jab combo: Farore's Squall can escape.


Raptor Boost: Can block at any time. Squall out-ranges it immediately.
Falcon Kick: Can only block it using intangible frames.
Falcon Punch: Can block at any time. Squall out-ranges it immediately.
Falcon Dive: Can push the start up away but will not cancel the command grab if Falcon is still in range.
Jab combo: Farore's Squall can escape it.


Balloon Trip and Pocket: Non-damaging attacks so you can freely push them around.
Jab combo: Farore's Squall can escape it.


Winged Pikmin and Pikmin Order: Non-damaging attack so you can freely push them around.
Other specials are ranged based and easy to deal with using Nayru's Love.


Header: Only blockable with intangible frames. It will reflect the ball vertical
Super Hoop: Can block at any time. Squall out-ranges it immediately.
Deep Breathing: Non-damaging attack so you can freely push it around.
Jab combo: Farore's Squall can escape.


Air Slash and Back Slash: Can push it away but will still hit you due to the range. They are only 100% blockable with the intangible frames.
Monado Arts and Counter: Non-damaging attacks so you can freely push them around.
Jab combo: Farore's Squall can escape.


Super Jump Punch: This move is extremely quick. Farore's Squall can block it as long as you activate it first (requires prediction levels of input).
Cape: It is impossible to cape Farore's Squall. The wind box out-ranges it instantly
Dr. Tornado: Can push away at any time, but to fully block the move you need to be in intangible frames.
Jab combo: Farore's Squall can escape it.


Power Pellet: Only blockable with intangible frames.
Pac-Jump: Farore's Squall can block it as long as you activate it first and dodge the hit box.
Jab combo: Farore's Squall can escape it.


Rush Coil: Non-damaging attack so you can freely push it around.
All of his other attacks are ranged based and easily deal with using Nayru's Love.


Spin Dash: Impossible to block without taking damage. This includes using intangible frames.
Spring jump: Non-damaing attack so you can freely push it around.
Homing Attack: Only blockable with intangible frames.
Jab combo: Farore's Squall can escape it.

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Ledge Shennanigans​

After testing, we determined that, whenever a character is hanging from the ledge but has already lost invincibility, either from hanging on the ledge too long or from coming back after releasing, Squall's reappearing windbox will pop them up enough distance for Zelda to follow up with an u-smash, u-tilt or f-air. It might be possible that the popped up character in question will be able to air dodge, however, so more time in the lab is needed for this application.

Ledge Cancelling​

@ Lavani here exemplifies how Squall could be used in conjunction with ledge cancelling to get guaranteed follow ups and possible KOs

it's k gorl, yew get a flashy new elevator!

Another example of Squall's utility when used in conjunction with ledge cancelling (be mindful that this is just testing, since Captain Falcon would have normally been able to shield the traversing windbox).

Spoiler

The conjunction of a ledge-cancelled Squall with an u-air finisher is what we affectionally call the Squallator. @ Macchiato here compiled a list on the %s this combo will kill all of the cast.

Spoiler: Squallator Kill Percents

Character|Percents
Jigglypuff|76%+
Game&Watch|80%+
Kirby|83%+
Rosalina|83%+
Pikachu|86%+
Olimar|86%+
Fox|86%+
Meta Knight|89%+
Zero Suit Samus|89%+
Falco|89%+
Little Mac|89%+
Sheik|87%+
Zelda|89%+
Peach|87%+
Marth|95%+
Lucina|95%+
Duck Hunt|96%+
Palutena|89%+
Diddy Kong|97%+
Toon Link|92%+
Ness|93%+
Greninja|91%+
Pac-Man|93%+
Sonic|95%+
Robin|94%+
Pit|96%+
Dark Pit|96%+
Wii Fit Trainer|92%+
Luigi|92%+
Villager|94%+
Mario|97%+
Dr. Mario|97%+
Lucario|99%+
Mega Man|104%+
Shulk|100%+
Yoshi|98%+
Link|102%+
Captain Falcon|104%+
R.O.B|102%+
Wario|103%+
Ike|104%+
Samus|100%+
Ganondorf|106%+
Bowser Jr.|103%+
Charizard|102%+
DeDeDe|118%+
Donkey Kong|113%+
Bowser|107%+

Tested on Final destination with no DI or Rage

Be mindful, though, that even though the Squallator is a kill move, it is far from reliable. Every opponent can shield Squall's traversing windbox and not be affected by it. Due to Squall's very laggy start up, it is almost impossible to catch your opponent off-guard in order to take them towards the ledge. You would need them to be in a particularly awkward position, like charging a laggy attack or having been shield-broken or helpless. The closer to the ledge they are, the easier it will be for you to pull this out without them shielding.

More uses should still be investigated to determine is u-air is the only possible follow up.

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Gimping​

With a windbox as massive as Squall's, it's only natural for the move to be used as a gimping tool against characters with particularly bad or predictable recoveries. This is only reinforced by the move having incredible reach in all directions, which means Zelda can go DEEP when trying to edgeguard without having to worry about making it back onstage. The move's initial windbox is also pretty handy for stopping edgeguard attempts that don't have hugely disjointed hitboxes.

Here's a video by @ 「 Derk 」 showing possible uses of Squall against a variety of the cast.

​

Here is a list of characters that get gimped by Squall through different uses:

- : His Up-B can be pushed away from the stage when he's recovering low, and his Side-B can be halted midair if Ike's not careful and tries to recover high instead of snapping the ledge. Here's a video by @ S.F.L.R_9 showing possible ways to gimp Ike's recovery (with a super hilarious gimp in the end that showcases the massive windbox on Squall's reappear).

Spoiler: Git Gimped Ike

- : Predictably, Ness's recovery can be completely destroyed by the use of Farore's Squall. Windboxes have always been things the psychic kid dislikes, and this one might give the rest of them a run for their money. The start up windbox on Squall is enough to push Ness away from his PK Thunder, making it miss or launch him towards undesired directions.

- : Rosalina's recovery is mostly unaffected by Squall's windboxes, save for making her shoot way higher than she intended, thus forcing her to land on stage and become more vulnerable. If Zelda teleports to where Rosalina will fall, she will get an easy punish. This, however, is a big hard to achieve and shouldn't be considered an actual advantage against Rosaluma for this MU.

- : Diddy's recovery can actually be messed with and/or gimped by Squall in some circumstances. Either that or it can put him in a very awkward place to recover. By using Squall in conjunction with Nayru's Love or Rejection, Diddy's recovery being easily gimped is actually a relative reality for Zelda if she manages to catch him off-stage.

-: If Mac's recovery wasn't already incredibly easy to gimp, Squall actually makes it even easier for Zelda. Since Squall's windboxes won't actually activate Mac's Counter, the option of him using counter to get back on-stage is nullified. Also, the reappearing windbox can stop and push both of Mac's recovery specials, since they don't sweetspot the ledge. This means that simply having Max off-stage can mean a stock in Zelda's favor if Squall is used intelligently.

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Squall Boosting​

By using Squall's windbox in doubles, Zelda can actually aid her team companion by pushing them towards enemies while using particularly slow attacks or charged Smashes. It also seems that Squall's traversing windbox can push certain projectiles like Phantom with it, which makes Villager, once more, a very interesting team mate for Zelda.

Additionally, Squall's traversing windbox can carry and push certain onstage projectiles, such as 's Gyroids, 's Mechakoopas and 's Phantom.

This is another video by @ 「 Derk 」 showing the potential uses of Squall in doubles with as a partner.

Spoiler: Squall Boosting in doubles

The move needs more testing, but it's looking like it can have a ton of utilities.

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TO DO's for Farore's Squall:​

I will keep adding new possibilities for this move in this list. Once tested, the information will be added to the OP's repository (which will be more organised later) and the To-Do will be striked.

• Test if it can stop or interrupt aerial chains and combos such as Sheik and Ness' fair strings, or Diddy's follow ups from d-throw. Same with Palutena's Lightweight combos and other characters with which Zelda has a hard time handling pressure.
• Test what Squall can do against Sonic's specials and approaches.
• Test what the effects of Squall's windboxes have on bananas and on-stage items.
• Test the strength on the windbox with the purpose of gimping character recoveries from off-stage.
• Test how Squall can affect Ness's recovery in all of his customs.
• Test if there are any kind of follow ups from a non-ledge cancelled reappear.
• Test what other follow ups could be possible from a ledge cancelled reappear besides from U-air.
• Determine the exact points from which Squall can be ledge cancelled on at least all the starter legal stages.
• Test what Farore's Squall can do to Luma both on disappear and reappear.
• Test what Farore's Squall can do against Mac's smashes and KO punch.
• Test what Farore's Squall can do against Peach's pressuring aerials.

 

[Fernosaur]

reserved because everyone does it

 

[Macchiato]

Yew can buffer it into moves like the phantom, that's something note worthy.

 

[BJN39]

So should I like, eventually make a spotlight on Squall like I have planned for FW in the Fairy Fountain? Because I definitely don't mind having spotlights for ALL of her customs and specials that have interesting archetype stuffs, and would benefit from a spotlight. Because there's always more than just the data.

Speaking of this, I ought to put this one together and put it in the Fairy Fountain considering all the current hype and curiosity around iT.

Also, just leaving this here, courtesy of D3RK~

 

[Fernosaur]

Thanks BJN, I added that to the OP as well as some new To-Do's

 

[Macchiato]

Imagine if this beat diddys uair. Immediate high tier.

Also lavani said that if your opponent is on the ledge, if yew squall at them and pop them up, it true combos to Usmash.

 

[BJN39]

Oop, just thought of something. This would be murderous against a recovering Ness. Like, if you catch him al ALL during PKThunder, you can whoosh him away from his thunder, kind of like Nairo has done with Pit/D.Pit's orbituars.

 

[Fernosaur]

Oop, just thought of something. This would be murderous against a recovering Ness. Like, if you catch him al ALL during PKThunder, you can whoosh him away from his thunder, kind of like Nairo has done with Pit/D.Pit's orbituars.

Added to To Do's . I dunno if this thread should be stickied? I honestly dunno what should be an what shouldn't.

 

[S.F.L.R_9]

So, about edgeguarding...

Who needs 60% elevator kills when you have 0% Squall kills?

This also works with Ike's upb, but it wasn't really worth recording. What really needs to be tested is what recoveries this will work on and if it can work on people recovering under the stage (like.. with their upb). Tbh I'm sick right now so I don't feel like trying to control two controllers at once so if anyone else wants to take on finding out who this works on I'd greatly appreciate it.

 

[BJN39]

So, about edgeguarding...

Who needs 60% elevator kills when you have 0% Squall kills?

This also works with Ike's upb, but it wasn't really worth recording. What really needs to be tested is what recoveries this will work on and if it can work on people recovering under the stage (like.. with their upb). Tbh I'm sick right now so I don't feel like trying to control two controllers at once so if anyone else wants to take on finding out who this works on I'd greatly appreciate it.

I lost it at the end. Did NOT see coming. xD

 

[Lavani]

Unfortunately the windbox is pretty weak, I couldn't even stop C.Falcon's recovery when I was testing it earlier in the day.

It's probably just the usual suspects that are vulnerable to this; Ike, Shulk, Mac, maybe Meta Knight (strictly upB), and characters like Mario/Marth that upB too close to the ledge and don't ledgesnap.

 

[S.F.L.R_9]

Trading the elevator for Squall in those matchups might not be too bad of an idea. Since Ike, Shulk, and Mac are tall enough to consistently land LK's on, the kill power of the elevator might not be necessary and the gimping capability of Squall could be used instead.

 

[Macchiato]

Unfortunately the windbox is pretty weak, I couldn't even stop C.Falcon's recovery when I was testing it earlier in the day.

It's probably just the usual suspects that are vulnerable to this; Ike, Shulk, Mac, maybe Meta Knight (strictly upB), and characters like Mario/Marth that upB too close to the ledge and don't ledgesnap.

It's also good for characters with rapid jabs and good juggle ability. Sheik I feel will be an easier MU because it stops his rapid jab, possibly stops fair strings, and stops bouncing fishes

 

[Lavani]

It's also good for characters with rapid jabs and good juggle ability. Sheik I feel will be an easier MU because it stops his rapid jab, possibly stops fair strings, and stops bouncing fishes

I was strictly speaking in regards to what recoveries it gimps. Naturally it has its uses in other areas against other characters.

 

[Fernosaur]

Trading the elevator for Squall in those matchups might not be too bad of an idea. Since Ike, Shulk, and Mac are tall enough to consistently land LK's on, the kill power of the elevator might not be necessary and the gimping capability of Squall could be used instead.

Ike can be gimped through the use of Phantom as well, though, and I'm not sure but possibly Shulk as well. However, with their laggy jabs, Squall might be useful to punish them for using it and putting them in awkward positions.

 

[S.F.L.R_9]

Ike can be gimped through the use of Phantom as well, though, and I'm not sure but possibly Shulk as well. However, with their laggy jabs, Squall might be useful to punish them for using it and putting them in awkward positions.

Squall is so much flashier and sassier though
You can also gimp with Squall's disappearing windbox offstage. I feel like there's a lot that can be done with that that we haven't tested yet.

 

[Lavani]

Squall is so much flashier and sassier though
You can also gimp with Squall's disappearing windbox offstage. I feel like there's a lot that can be done with that that we haven't tested yet.

That's the very first thing I was testing when Squall was brought up in the social earlier today. I couldn't get anything notable done with it, at best I managed to just stall Falcon in place for a bit while I returned to the stage; at worst, he fell in front of me before I teleported and I ended up ledge trumping myself with him.

If this can actually gimp certain characters, it'd have to be ones with awful air speed and probably only at high percents.

 

[Fernosaur]

That's the very first thing I was testing when Squall was brought up in the social earlier today. I couldn't get anything notable done with it, at best I managed to just stall Falcon in place for a bit while I returned to the stage; at worst, he fell in front of me before I teleported and I ended up ledge trumping myself with him.

If this can actually gimp certain characters, it'd have to be ones with awful air speed and probably only at high percents.

It might pay off to try and use the long lasting hitbox from start up to disappear and see if we can interrupt ledge snaps by abusing the 1 frame vulnerability before they actually get the ledge., particularly thinking about teleports like Warp and Vanish.

 

[S.F.L.R_9]

That's the very first thing I was testing when Squall was brought up in the social earlier today. I couldn't get anything notable done with it, at best I managed to just stall Falcon in place for a bit while I returned to the stage; at worst, he fell in front of me before I teleported and I ended up ledge trumping myself with him.

If this can actually gimp certain characters, it'd have to be ones with awful air speed and probably only at high percents.

Well..that sucks. It seems we're back at square one with Squall only being useful for escaping jabs and doubles shenanigans. If we're going to move on from gimping, we should try getting out of combos like Sheik's fair strings or the hoohah. If it could get us out of those somehow, it'd be worth using just bc of that.

 

[Lavani]

It might pay off to try and use the long lasting hitbox from start up to disappear and see if we can interrupt ledge snaps by abusing the 1 frame vulnerability before they actually get the ledge., particularly thinking about teleports like Warp and Vanish.

Ledgesnaps aren't affected by windboxes.

 

[「 Derk 」]

That's the very first thing I was testing when Squall was brought up in the social earlier today. I couldn't get anything notable done with it, at best I managed to just stall Falcon in place for a bit while I returned to the stage; at worst, he fell in front of me before I teleported and I ended up ledge trumping myself with him.

If this can actually gimp certain characters, it'd have to be ones with awful air speed and probably only at high percents.

You can go offstage and use the first part of Squall to push opponents away then warp to the edge of the stage to get your jump back. Then you can jump back offstage and push them away again if needed. A lot of recoveries can be gimped this way. Samus, Ness, Link, Bowser Jr, Mario, Mega Man, Robin, and Yoshi are some examples.

Edit: Ness is extremely easy to gimp by pushing him away from his PK Thunder trail lol. You can literally go bump into him with your wind box and its a guaranteed kill.

 

[Macchiato]

Wait can the end of it kill? If they opponent were in the air in a position where a Squall would hit, could it kill?
Also I think that the "Squall Elevator" should have a different name

 

[Fernosaur]

Ledgesnaps aren't affected by windboxes.

That's the kind of info I was requesting How effective.

Wait can the end of it kill? If they opponent were in the air in a position where a Squall would hit, could it kill?
Also I think that the "Squall Elevator" should have a different name

I'd call it the Squallator

Geddit.

Cause it's an escalator.


Nvm.

 

[Nammy12]

This custom is HILARIOUS
Windboxes are too much fun.

 

[S.F.L.R_9]

...Crazy super situational idea but whatever:
Combine this with Phantom Breaker. Break their shield, and get them close to the edge of the stage. Farore's Squall in place, and laugh at the demise of your opponent :^)
Maybe if we find other uses for Squall that won't be such a crazy idea since you'd already be running Squall for other reasons.

 

[BJN39]

Another random thought; you can technically/theoretically do this [wind-box] like, frame 2 JC OoS. I hadn't though of any specific situation where this would be particularly useful, but perhaps to get some pressure off of your shield?

 

[Fernosaur]

Another random thought; you can technically/theoretically do this [wind-box] like, frame 2 JC OoS. I hadn't though of any specific situation, but perhaps to get some pressure off of you?

Squall is basically a free reset to neutral in any circumstance in which Zelda is being pressured too much. We have to test it in actual combat but the windbox coming on frame 1 makes it a relatively viable OoS option for you to escape opponents that managed to get too close for our comfort.

 

[S.F.L.R_9]

Squall is basically a free reset to neutral in any circumstance in which Zelda is being pressured too much. We have to test it in actual combat but the windbox coming on frame 1 makes it a relatively viable OoS option for you to escape opponents that managed to get too close for our comfort.

So it's basically a substitute for OOS Nayru's. Does that mean we could possibly play around with Nayru's customs if we're going to run Squall...? I doubt it'd be worth looking into them but who knows.

 

[BJN39]

So it's basically a substitute for OOS Nayru's. Does that mean we could possibly play around with Nayru's customs if we're going to run Squall...? I doubt it'd be worth looking into them but who knows.

Well, neither Nayru custom really KOs at an effective percent, so I at least don't see any merit to look around there for a replacement for the loss of FW.

You could go Nayru's Rejection and run two obnoxious ultra reversal moves. But seriously why not if it really does get near frame 1 intangibility.

 

[Fernosaur]

So it's basically a substitute for OOS Nayru's. Does that mean we could possibly play around with Nayru's customs if we're going to run Squall...? I doubt it'd be worth looking into them but who knows.

Passion might actually become a viable substitute in a match up in which strong projectiles aren't an issue. The damage output isn't super shabby and it can serve to get people off the stage, I guess. If we're actually going for a super defensive and gimp-dependant build against these characters, then it might be a good pick.

There's also Rejection's weird flips and apparent intangibility. Seriously her customs seem to be 100% defensive.

Edit: Ninja'd :C

 

[Macchiato]

Wow, the two customs we thought was useless are actually really good. This makes me wonder how much is hidden in her other customs too

 

[Fernosaur]

The one thing none of Nayru's customs can do, though, is be a combo follow up, nor can they punish rolls too greatly.

Well, I dunno about Passion, but I'm guessing Love is better at it.

 

[S.F.L.R_9]

The one thing none of Nayru's customs can do, though, is be a combo follow up, nor can they punish rolls too greatly.

Well, I dunno about Passion, but I'm guessing Love is better at it.

Maybe you can use Passion to kinda sorta gimp due to the increased knockback...? Idk, I'm just trying to salvage it in any way possible lol

Oh btw, so about the Breaker + Squall combo...

Why the hell do these windboxes save people whose shields are broken? I'm almost positive this is like the only windbox in the game to do this. I tested the reappearing windbox too and it just does the regular thing that pushes them up -sigh-

 

[Fernosaur]

Maybe you can use Passion to kinda sorta gimp due to the increased knockback...? Idk, I'm just trying to salvage it in any way possible lol

Oh btw, so about the Breaker + Squall combo...

Why the hell do these windboxes save people whose shields are broken? I'm almost positive this is like the only windbox in the game to do this. I tested the reappearing windbox too and it just does the regular thing that pushes them up -sigh-

Well, that one is crossed out I guess our best option on a shield break is trying to land a bair or something.

 

[BJN39]

^Have you already tested pushing them while they're tumbling down before hitting the ground post-shield break? Iirc that's when you're supposed to do the pushy lol KO moves.

 

[Fernosaur]

^Have you already tested pushing them while they're tumbling down before hitting the ground post-shield break? Iirc that's when you're supposed to do the pushy lol KO moves.

Yeah I was gonna suggest exactly this. Break their shields and try to teleport towards them ASAP in order to push them while they're tumbling down!

 

[S.F.L.R_9]

^Have you already tested pushing them while they're tumbling down before hitting the ground post-shield break? Iirc that's when you're supposed to do the pushy lol KO moves.

Ooh good idea, thanks. Booting up my Wii U again rn lol. Be back with the results in a min or two

edit: Ok so there's literally no interaction at all between the windbox and the other character during the falling down animation. Strange. I tried teleporting over and using the reappearing windbox, running up and doing an aerial teleport with the disappearing windbox, but nothing at all.

 

[Fernosaur]

That's very disappointing And weird to boot too. Why would this windbox in particular behave like this? Or maybe it's a matter of all windboxes?

 

[S.F.L.R_9]

That's very disappointing And weird to boot too. Why would this windbox in particular behave like this? Or maybe it's a matter of all windboxes?

I just tested some others to make sure and Rosalina's Luma recall does the same thing as well as Palutena's fsmash and dsmash. I just tried pushing Zelda to another part of the stage with Palutena's fsmash and she didn't go back to normal. So, it just seems to be a general mechanic for pushing people with broken shields off of ledges.

 

[Macchiato]

If someone can test the hoo hah at percents it's no longer a true combo which are the higher percents.

Nairo saw it and he says he might test it and stuff. He thinks it might be an alternative to wind.