The Answer Lies in The Heart of Battle - Ryu MU Discussion - Revamp - Sheik

[WolfieXVII ❂]

The Answer Lies in The Heart of Battle

This thread is used to discuss Ryu's Matchups, and Matchup Impressions.
Each week we will discuss a different character, and see if we can get users from other character boards to help foster unbiased discussion.
During these weeks, the topic at hand is the only one which may be discussed. Off-topic discussion or nonsense discussion (such as discussing MUs outside the rotation ) will be treated as spam.
Now let's get some discussion started and see where everyone's favorite fighter belongs on the tier list!

Matchup Table
This is a work in progress. The numbers here represent the general opinion of the public and are subject to change.
-Basic Table-

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| ?:? | ?:? | ?:? | ?:?| ?:? | ?:? |?:?| ?:? | ?:? |?:?

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| ?:? | ?:?| ?:? | ?:? | ?:? | ?:? | ?:?| ?:? | ?:? | ?:?

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| ?:? | ?:? | ?:? | ?:? | ?:? | ?:? |?:? | ?:? | ?:? | ?:?| ?:?| ?:? |

| | | | | | | | | | |
| ?:? | ?:? | ?:? |?:? | ?:? | ?:? | ?:? | ?:? |?:?| ?:?| ?:?

|| | | | | | | | | | |
| ?:?| ?:? | ?:? | ?:? | ?:? | ?:? | ?:? | ?:? |?:? | ?:? | ?:?

what we should be doing is discuss every matchup in this topic not on a weekly manner, but in a way that we move onto the next MU as soon or as late as we feel comfortable. No point in setting a strict time window when it could mean we still have things left to cover or that we will be at a solid conclusion in two days and sit doing nothing for five. We should invite the respective character boards to join in on the conversations and archive those convos into this first post along with pros and cons, a matchup summary and a +/-1 type of system, and any posts not related to the subject we're discussing at a particular time should be strictly ignored, but any conversation related to the MU at hand at a given time is welcome, the relevant bits will be picked and compiled eventually. If no one is against this, we should get started as soon as we can.

With the method we'd be using it would be the most beneficial to focus on one character at a time, get it out of the way and move on to the next one instead of glancing over several characters at a time. We should probably start from ones that we have some serious insight on and who are also the most problematic.

Starting with
The Greninja MU thread is a direct inspiration for this, thx @Liberation ;p​

 

[Blade Knight]

Judging by the 7 hours of play I hammered out I feel like Ryu is particularly strong in this game. He's got great priority, large damage on most hits and great combo potential off of Jabs, Grabs, and almost any hit at all. He can struggle against opponents with longer range though his great hitboxes and priority help out a lot in my experience.

I played 66 matches today, of which I won 63 according to my Fighter Records. Most of the matches I played were against Ike, Roy, and Palutena with some Lucas, Mewtwo and Robin mixed in. Ryu doesn't stuggle noteably against any of these characters from what I can tell. Even Robin and Lucas, who have projectile advantage crumple entirely to Ryu's incredible priority and combo game. It takes only a few hits to get them into death range and we have plenty of KO moves at that point, plus our off stage gimping isn't horrible either with such a strong spike, back air, and forward air. Ryu's priority and long range on his aerial attacks, tilts, and generous smash attack all really help out against sword characters making them less of an issue than I would have anticipated. Focus attack specifically is astounding against Ike, Lucas, and Robin. I did play a little bit against Sonic, and that seems like a troubled matchup for Ryu, but far from undoable. His bevy of multihit attacks make focus attack all but useless in the matchup, but he still dies fairly quickly and is comfortably comboable. That'll be one to research more I feel.

Additionally, he can counter every counter in the game with quick poke->command shoryuken.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TmiZyfvFQK4

 

[WolfieXVII ❂]

Reserved for later reasonssss

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

http://smashboards.com/threads/character-competitive-impressions.367669/page-745#post-19422321

Based Dabuz seems to like Ryu so far

 

[Rizen]

This happened fast.

 

[WolfieXVII ❂]

This happened fast.

Well, I want us to start figuring out how Ryu does against the cast
It's a bit too soon, so we'll just do first impressions and stuff for the first run through
Then once we go over at least every character, we'll run it back and have serious MU discussion. Because by then Ryu won't be as new, and people will have an idea of how he plays.

 

[Solaris_Noid]

I main Lucario and while I haven't played any other ones with Ryu, on paper it sounds like it's even, maybe slightly in Lucario's favor cause of the usual stuff like Aura. Only thing off the top of my head that would give Ryu trouble is AS charge since his Focus Attack only armors one hit, but I'm sure you can FA the Force Palm flame and Lucario would be left wide open if you could.

 

[KevN くコ:彡]

Fighting Ryu as Little Mac is now one of my favorite match ups. We played around 6 or so rounds, each was a close game and even victories. It was so much fun. Can't speak for Ryu since I don't have him yet.

 

[.Shìkì]

I have a hell of a hard time against Link of all characters. Those disjointed hitboxes, multihitting smashes and loads of projectiles are sheer hell to deal with. I wish Input-Hurricane Kick would travel through projectiles/have invincibility on the lower body, because all Hadouken versions get wiped out by every single projectile in the game,

FE cast (didn'T play vs. a Robin yet) also can be tricky, but at least you can tank their smashes with a Focus attack and then go combo them...Link just takes the scond swing, and off you go at ~90 % (although i propably DI'd horribly).

 

[ArccJPO]

I have a hell of a hard time against Link of all characters. Those disjointed hitboxes, multihitting smashes and loads of projectiles are sheer hell to deal with. I wish Input-Hurricane Kick would travel through projectiles/have invincibility on the lower body, because all Hadouken versions get wiped out by every single projectile in the game,

FE cast (didn'T play vs. a Robin yet) also can be tricky, but at least you can tank their smashes with a Focus attack and then go combo them...Link just takes the scond swing, and off you go at ~90 % (although i propably DI'd horribly).

If fast enough, one can simply counter the second swing in Link's smash by parrying the first with Focus and instantly releasing it. May not go full power, but at least you are safe.

 

[.Shìkì]

If fast enough, one can simply counter the second swing in Link's smash by parrying the first with Focus and instantly releasing it. May not go full power, but at least you are safe.

Thanks, good to know! Now i just need to find a way to aproach the projectile-spamming variety without having to play the original Donkey Kong... (jk)

Well looks like it is Hadouken spam until the Link decides he gets bored of every projectile clanking, coming to rush in and then get combo'd. At least fot now.

 

[ArccJPO]

Thanks, good to know! Now i just need to find a way to aproach the projectile-spamming variety without having to play the original Donkey Kong... (jk)

Well looks like it is Hadouken spam until the Link decides he gets bored of every projectile clanking, coming to rush in and then get combo'd. At least fot now.

Try diving in. If too far, use the Hurricane kick, it has a bit of end-lag, but you can chain other hits after, even in the air. Just found it out in the lab.

Edit: I Used it against Master Hand while doing Classic. Dunno if I got hit after so I could chain, but I hardly doubt it. I'm at work, and unable to play, so, if someone could test it, please, post results.

 

[.Shìkì]

Try diving in. If too far, use the Hurricane kick, it has a bit of end-lag, but you can chain other hits after, even in the air. Just found it out in the lab.

Edit: I Used it against Master Hand while doing Classic. Dunno if I got hit after so I could chain, but I hardly doubt it. I'm at work, and unable to play, so, if someone could test it, please, post results.

The problem is even a slight gust of air knocks you right out of the kick, even the one used by SF input. Meaning the next arrow, bomb or storm boomerang will send you back to where you startet from >->

 

[ArccJPO]

Try FADC multiple times. Instead of releasing it, just dash foward. You will just absorb the hit, and slowly close the gap, while playing safe, without sacrificing your shield.

 

[PokemonyeWest]

Zelda has one of the most respectable Reflector type moves in the game. I would not recommend attempting to zone or exert pressure by usage of Hadoukens. Zelda struggles up close because none of her moves are necessarily good. Her Forward Tilt is potent as a "Get Off Me" move because it comes out reasonably fast and has good range. Her Forward Air and Back Air are Focus Attack food. Zelda's Neutral Air hits multiple times however and this is probably the move you'll encounter most from Zelda's in the air. Forward Air and Back Air have far too much landing lag to just throw out, but they are some of her best kill options as well. Her Teleport can also be absorbed with Focus Attack so if you think Zelda is going to try to hit you with it (Which, outside of setups, no Zelda player ought to be doing in the first place) just absorb + punish. Zelda's Phantom Slash can be Focus Attack absorbed but only the version that isn't fully charged, as the fully charged version hits twice. Destroying the Phantom makes her unable to use it for a brief period, about nine seconds (as seen by purple energy surrounding her hands).

I see this being an advantageous matchup for Ryu because of his superior damage output, speed, and KO potential. All Zelda has going for her in this matchup is her superb reflector, Nayru's Love, and her annoying (albeit not extremely effective) zoning and edge-guarding potential with Phantom Slash.

 

[PChron]

Zelda has one of the most respectable Reflector type moves in the game. I would not recommend attempting to zone or exert pressure by usage of Hadoukens. Zelda struggles up close because none of her moves are necessarily good. Her Forward Tilt is potent as a "Get Off Me" move because it comes out reasonably fast and has good range. Her Forward Air and Back Air are Focus Attack food. Zelda's Neutral Air hits multiple times however and this is probably the move you'll encounter most from Zelda's in the air. Forward Air and Back Air have far too much landing lag to just throw out, but they are some of her best kill options as well. Her Teleport can also be absorbed with Focus Attack so if you think Zelda is going to try to hit you with it (Which, outside of setups, no Zelda player ought to be doing in the first place) just absorb + punish. Zelda's Phantom Slash can be Focus Attack absorbed but only the version that isn't fully charged, as the fully charged version hits twice. Destroying the Phantom makes her unable to use it for a brief period, about nine seconds (as seen by purple energy surrounding her hands).

I see this being an advantageous matchup for Ryu because of his superior damage output, speed, and KO potential. All Zelda has going for her in this matchup is her superb reflector, Nayru's Love, and her annoying (albeit not extremely effective) zoning and edge-guarding potential with Phantom Slash.

Yeah I don't think zelda has any chance in that match up. Unless she really manages to zone Ryu out, he's gonna get in her face and combo her to death quite easily.

 

[busken]

PLEASE DONT DO IT THIS WAY. Making character specific threads is way better trust me I've been thier. People will make threads like "How do I handle Zelda" and stuff like that Im telling you! Make this a forum mu directory!

 

[PokemonyeWest]

PLEASE DONT DO IT THIS WAY. Making character specific threads is way better trust me I've been thier. People will make threads like "How do I handle Zelda" and stuff like that Im telling you! Make this a forum mu directory!

The best way to do it would be to a Detailed Matchup Table as seen here in the Greninja boards

 

[Steam]

It's way too early to accurately discuss ryu matchups. It's literally been one day.

 

[ZeroSnipist]

So are discussions and ratios allowed for the first 4 characters as of now?

 

[PokemonyeWest]

It's way too early to accurately discuss ryu matchups. It's literally been one day.

It's not like anyone has dissected a matchup and given it scrutinous analysis yet.

Though, after my post about Zelda, I do feel we should hold off on discussing character matchups and just stick to posting general stuff for now.

 

[ZeroSnipist]

It's not like anyone has dissected a matchup and given it scrutinous analysis yet.

Though, after my post about Zelda, I do feel we should hold off on discussing character matchups and just stick to posting general stuff for now.

General stuff as in what?

 

[PokemonyeWest]

General stuff as in what?

Impressions on who gives Ryu a hard time, what matchups are favorable

 

[ZeroSnipist]

Impressions on who gives Ryu a hard time, what matchups are favorable

Ok definitely will do in a little bit.

 

[ZeroSnipist]

This is all in theory and should be taken with a grain of salt since Ryu's playstyle will evolve overtime.

Characters with large hitboxes namely shulk, captain falcon, rosalina, and zss will outplayed Ryu just because of their fluidity in terms of combos. Zone-y characters like villager, link, ,toon link, robin, and duck hunt will also make sure to capatilize on Ryu's somewhat sluggish air movement I. Terms of approaching. Characters with multi hit moves will also punish FADC if used too much.
I say Zelda , yoshi, g and w, Kirby , Ness, Lucas, and olimar with his pikmin. These matchups are not neccessarily impossible, but should be careful of when crossed upon.
The one character that FADC will mostly affect imo is diddy. When diddy doesn't have multi hit air moves and his bannas will be somewhat useless against FADC armor. You'll have to be ready to let go of the FA when he comes grabbing for you.
Little Mac is also a match up that seems favorable due to FADC super armor which can beat Macs super armor.
I'll have more to write later when I get home.
And again I strongly encourage all readers to take this with a grain of salt and that it's all in theory.

 

[CatcherAndTheRai]

so i feel like characters that can combo like monsters (luigi, and sheik for example) can combo ryu even more. I have more trouble with these kind of characters than i do projectile based characters. but that might just me my style of play. I definitely think that if you aren't capitalizing EVERY punish to its fullest potential, you are losing the battle. they can just wrack up damage a lot easier/safer.

I have been using the FADC in the air as a sort of "Ganon float" if you are aware of Ganon in PM.
I will jump at the enemy with the FA, bait out something from them, and as soon as they commit, you cancel it backwards and punish their aerial. first thing I do when approaching a match up is 1. does the enemy have multi-hits? 2.how many? 3. what moves do they have lag on that i can punish them for, and i look to exploit them.

another point of reference a sweet spotted F-air or B-air destroys zelda's knight armor with one hit. which allows for a 9 second break from her walling you out with it.

EDIT: May I suggest that we start off by discussing all of the top tiers first since they will be the most notable ones seen in tourneys and such?? It's just a thought so it could be more beneficial to all tournament players.

 

[WolfieXVII ❂]

It's way too early to accurately discuss ryu matchups. It's literally been one day.

Read the bottom of the OP​

 

[Knife8193]

How do y'all find the Kirby matchup? Appraently he can duck under a lot of your moves.

 

[WolfieXVII ❂]

Well as a Kirby main I believe the MU isn't too bad, because we can duck most of Ryu's moves and we're hard to combo consistently.
But Ryu's power is something to look out for. Should be interestng.
I haven't played a Ryu as Kirby yet, but he doesn't seem that hard to edgeguard
Copying his neutral B is a must though
I'll edit in more things once I play a Ryu.

 

[warionumbah2]

Love the thread name but couldn't we wait a week at least? We gonna get a bunch of mains claiming to beat Ryu just to make themselves feel good . The biggest problem is that people will base it off FG, instead of other stages.

Alot of Ryu's can't even True SRK at will, don't Fair OOS against disjoint characters etc. Characters that are claimed to beat Ryu is down right silly. Like really? Robin? Lets chill folks.


I know its impressions but still.

 

[ArccJPO]

Kirby: Hey Ryu, may I duck your Hadouken?
Ryu: SURE YOU CAN!

Spoiler

Ha! OLD!

Enough jokes.

I'm really feeling Shulk x Ryu. Jump and Speed can mess Ryu so hard due the change of pace the battle takes, Speed can just ignore Hadoukens and FA, while Jump may bait Ryu into Shoryuken, or just avoiding Tatsu, while still gimping Ryu's mediocre off-stage game. Besides, all those multi-hitting smashes can just nullify Ryu's FA.

Although, Shulk's Normal Vision can be baited for a quick SHR in the chin. I just hope they don't patch it up. Another good idea is to Shoryuken away those air back slashes, as the inputed SHR is invicible during the rising animation.

I guess, but Smash /Buster/Shield ain't good options against Ryu, in almost all cases. He has massive damage and is pretty swift to combo away, besides the EX SHR sends OoS so easily. Smash will just make Shulk fly easier, while Buster will add up to Ryu's combos, and Shield will make Shulk a sitting duck, as Ryu is actually pretty quick.

For now, that's all the info I could get in a quick sucession with games against a fairly decent Shulk.

 

[WolfieXVII ❂]

Love the thread name but couldn't we wait a week at least? We gonna get a bunch of mains claiming to beat Ryu just to make themselves feel good . The biggest problem is that people will base it off FG, instead of other stages.

Alot of Ryu's can't even True SRK at will, don't Fair OOS against disjoint characters etc. Characters that are claimed to beat Ryu is down right silly. Like really? Robin? Lets chill folks.


I know its impressions but still.

Schedule for 6.22.15 - 9.14.15
lmao I was hype sorry

 

[Kaladin]

*posting here to watch the thread*

Just a thought- shouldn't we figure out how to Ryu before talking about character specific shenanigains?

 

[PChron]

*posting here to watch the thread*

Just a thought- shouldn't we figure out how to Ryu before talking about character specific shenanigains?

90% of figuring out how a character works is the matchup.
It's pretty clear what ideal usage of Ryu looks like - a lot of down throws, short hop nairs to extend combos. The only stuff left to discover can only be found through experimentation, and not discussion.
Match ups also pretty clearly show you the strengths and weaknesses of a character, making them more elucidating than any pure character discussions could be.
Whatchu wanna talk about? The frames? There's already a discussion of that.

 

[Kaladin]

90% of figuring out how a character works is the matchup.
It's pretty clear what ideal usage of Ryu looks like - a lot of down throws, short hop nairs to extend combos. The only stuff left to discover can only be found through experimentation, and not discussion.
Match ups also pretty clearly show you the strengths and weaknesses of a character, making them more elucidating than any pure character discussions could be.
Whatchu wanna talk about? The frames? There's already a discussion of that.

I would want to talk about Ryu ATs and setups that work on the entire cast. (I'm aware there's a combo thread, but it's rather incomplete.)

 

[PChron]

I would want to talk about Ryu ATs and setups that work on the entire cast. (I'm aware there's a combo thread, but it's rather incomplete.)

ATs and setups don't come that quickly, and even when they do, rarely significantly alter match up consensus. It's not like we're going to discover that Ryu can freaking waveshine.

 

[CatcherAndTheRai]

This weekend I'll be at a local near my hometown, and it will be strictly doubles play, so I will be playing ryu in doubles.
I think he super excels in it because you have that teammate to help you not get punished as hard and such, we should be doing a crew battle as well so I can report my findings as such. Also my friend mains zelda and robin so if we are doing match up discussions then i can contribute heavily in those aspect match ups!^-^

 

[ArccJPO]

I was finally able to play a few matches yesterday.

Played against a lot of Mewtwo, Roy and Little Mac.

As far I could see, Mewtwo ain't that great, specially against Ryu. His charged shot can be easily blocked with Focus, while all his smashes and skills are fairly weak. Played a total of 6 matches against it, losing just one out of cheer error on my part.

Roy is a heavy hitting Marth. And that's all. A slower Marth. Easily readable, Focus punishes Roy pretty hard, While Shoryuken can be safely used to protect the edge, as he will probably recover with sword dance, Shoryuken away is a nice way to deal with such a problematic multi-hitter. No problems so far.

Little Mac. The ground king. Played a few matches against, the only problem being his 1HKO, goes out pretty fast, and is damn hard to read. Couldn't parry it with Focus, if someone can lab it to see if it's possible, would be Awesome. The only other problem is Little Macs speed. Compared to him, Ryu is pretty slow. My best options were hard reading dash hits and his side B for a FADC > Shoryuken.

Oh, want to add up MM. I think Ryu will have one hell of a hard time with this Match Up. MM has a great zoning game, while Ryu lacks approaching game. Multi jab can screw FA, Jumps can be punished with dsmash and usmash due range. Hadouken loses the exchange in 99% of the time. MM's dash attack multi-hits. Fighting this dude was a complete nightmare.

 

[SevenYearItch]

Played some FG last night, main one was against a solid DHD:

Those smashes are dangerous. I had some problems while trying to avoid the can where I'd get behind it or knock it away then get bodied by a smash being careless. If you can get DHD off stage and gimp, you can control the match very easily I found as their recovery leaves them to kind of free float back down to the stage with no options but to just be there. Shoryukens for days if you can predict it. Uair if you catch it early. Might just be my janky Ryu, but the combination of the zoning tools and the kind of crazy hitboxes pose a problem. Not unwinnable by any means, but definitely forces you into a campier game of Tatsu's and Hadokens

 

[Splooshi Splashy]

I can definitely vouch for DH's Smashes being sneaky, since charging them boosts their range (most noticably his FSmash, which in terms of sheer KO power, is definitely his strongest one, but it's also his slowest one), and in the case of his F & D Smashes, they lower his profile as well, protecting him from certain punishes (Falcon's run-up grabs, for one, and possibly the tip of Ryu's FSmash, but I've not personally tested that yet). His run-up USmash is definitely legit, since it's 7 frames, but he'll have to wait a while before it'll actually KO you (130+%??).

As for traversing DH's arsenal, we do have:

• FADCs to handle Gunmen's shots and even Clays, but only if they're not shot-up. More likely, they'll be shot-up at seemingly the instant they're thrown out, and if/when that happens, try to FADC forward ASAP, otherwise the shots will catch you (and if DH's nearby, he can follow it up for a bigger punish). FADC-ing through default Cans is NOT recommended, since it's a multi-hit move that will cleanly beat your FA.
• Tatsu can beat Clays, but again, only if they're not shot-up. It'll also OHKO Gunmen (and hit DH if you catch him setting them up) and kick Cans if they're in the air. You'll sail over grounded Cans from a distance, but those can be B-pressed if you're directly over the Can to challenge your Tatsu.
• SRK-motioned DP will let you bypass everything, due to its invincibility, but its horizontal range is severely lacking. If a DH tries to approach you (from the air, even) with any of his arsenal out there with the intent to cover him, this COULD be a decent option.
• Hadoukens, even its weakest B button version, will OHKO Gunmen, clash with Clays, and push back Cans, but only if they're in the air.
• Red Hadoukens will let you pierce & KO Gunmen, and even hit DH if he just set one up. It'll also pierce Cans, possibly allowing you to hit DH as well if he's close by. Sadly for us, even Reds will clash with Clays.
• All Hadoukens, even the Reds, will sail right over any Cans lying on the ground if you chuck them from farther than point blank range.

We also have our traditional universal options (Parry-- er, powershields, (spot)dodging, jumping, rolling, etc.) on top of all this. It's pretty cool & fitting that an infamous Fireball+Uppercut trapper from Super Turbo and a pseudo-camper in SF4 would have ways to get in on camps as fortified as DH's (who would be most like... Remy from 3S if there were no Parries?? Area from the EX series?? Yatterman-2 from TVC?? A handful of characters with strong post-hard-knockdown okizeme like Frederica Bernkastel from Ougon Musou Kyoku Cross (the Umineko no Naku Koro ni 2D fighter), Komachi & Alice from Scarlet Weather Rhapsody (Touhou 10.5), and Kohaku/Hisui from Melty Blood???).

I play an aggressive rushdown DH, so I likely do half of Ryu's work in approaching me for him, much like how upclose rushdown characters like Yun & Cammy do half of Zangief's work in approaching them for him (which does partially explain why SF4!Yun struggles with Zangief, since he doesn't have parries to disrespect his moves with like what he could do to Hugo & Alex in 2I/3S...). However, DH does outrange some of our melee moves, like his FAir & UAir & FTilt. Some of his attacks are also pretty fast as well, like his 4 frame jab, his 6 frame DTilt & NAir, and his 7 frame FAir & BAir. Upclose is where FAs become more useful, since the only multi-hit moves he has upclose are his jab strings, UAir, DAir, Clays (if shot-up), Up 2, default Cans, and his Smashes. The amount of combo damage we can do to him generally exceeds what he can do to us, unless he can get Clay (shot-up) --> (tippered) FAir x? --> (Closeup sweetspot) NAir juggles going.

If DH gets to put on Customs, expect 3121 or 3122.

Zigzag Can is his anti-air that, if mashed & positioned well, can rack up 20+% in 1 go.

Duck Jump Snag is practically our DP, minus the invincibility. He loses recovery distance if he runs this, so he'll want to be at a walled Omega stage (his best stage, btw) to be able to wall-jump his way back to the stage. This will also challenge our upclose aerial edgeguards, and its multi-hits will body FAs.

Quick Draw Aces will basically be a faster Clay in terms of distant poking. So long as you don't KO these Gunmen, he'll be able to play footsies as well as you can. Since you have more anti-Gunmen abilities than some other characters, DHes may pick this to have a usable Gunmen whose shots will likely come out before getting KO'd.

Stages: Expect walled Omega stages if possible, since traversing his arsenal becomes more difficult without platforms. Try banning them ASAP, since DH can wall-jump off of them to boost his recovery (especially if he's running Up 2) and you can't (he never really could in any part of his series, could he? ). Smashville's single platform CAN make the difference in getting in on him, but its similarity to FD is troublesome. T&C is less similar to FD (until the transitions, that is), and its lower ceiling can help us KO him sooner.

As for stages to try to take him to, Castle Siege, Duck Hunt, Delfino, and Halberd would be good ideas, since the 1st 2 ruin the dog's projectiles (CS's 1st transformation, at least), and the latter 2 boosts our good KO power further. Lylat Cruise, Miiverse, and Dream Land 64 would be decent ideas at least, due to how closeby the platforms are.