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That's Not A Chin Up: Ledge Option Data and Coverage

⑨ball

Smash Ace
Joined
Oct 6, 2014
Messages
819
Ledge Roll

:4mario:

Total Frames|Endlag|Invincibility
49|17|1-32|

:4luigi:
Total Frames|Endlag|Invincibility
49|20|1-29|

:4peach:
Total Frames|Endlag|Invincibility
49|21|1-28|

:4bowser:
Total Frames|Endlag|Invincibility
49|23|1-26|

:4yoshi:
Total Frames|Endlag|Invincibility
49|28|1-21|

:rosalina:
Total Frames|Endlag|Invincibility
49|18|1-31|

:4bowserjr:
Total Frames|Endlag|Invincibility
49|18|1-31|

:4wario2:
Total Frames|Endlag|Invincibility
49|22|1-27|

:4gaw:
Total Frames|Endlag|Invincibility
49|22|1-27|

:4dk:
Total Frames|Endlag|Invincibility
49|19|1-30|

:4diddy:
Total Frames|Endlag|Invincibility
49|23|1-26|

:4link:
Total Frames|Endlag|Invincibility
49|22|1-27|

:4zelda:
Total Frames|Endlag|Invincibility
49|20|1-29|

:4sheik:
Total Frames|Endlag|Invincibility
49|16|1-33|

:4ganondorf:
Total Frames|Endlag|Invincibility
49|24|1-25|

:4tlink:
Total Frames|Endlag|Invincibility
49|24|1-25|

:4samus:
Total Frames|Endlag|Invincibility
49|25|1-24|

:4zss:
Total Frames|Endlag|Invincibility
49|23|1-26|

:4pit::4darkpit:
Total Frames|Endlag|Invincibility
49|23|1-26|

:4palutena:
Total Frames|Endlag|Invincibility
49|23|1-26|

:4marth::4lucina:
Total Frames|Endlag|Invincibility
49|22|1-27|

:4myfriends:
Total Frames|Endlag|Invincibility
49|23|1-26|

:4robinf:
Total Frames|Endlag|Invincibility
49|23|1-26|

:4kirby:
Total Frames|Endlag|Invincibility
49|25|1-24|

:4dedede:
Total Frames|Endlag|Invincibility
49|16|1-33|

:4metaknight:
Total Frames|Endlag|Invincibility
49|17|1-32|

:4littlemac:
Total Frames|Endlag|Invincibility
49|20|1-29|

:4fox:
Total Frames|Endlag|Invincibility
49|21|1-28|

:4falco:
Total Frames|Endlag|Invincibility
49|18|1-31|

:4pikachu:
Total Frames|Endlag|Invincibility
49|24|1-25|

:4charizard:
Total Frames|Endlag|Invincibility
49|24|1-25|

:4lucario:
Total Frames|Endlag|Invincibility
49|22|1-27|

:4jigglypuff:
Total Frames|Endlag|Invincibility
49|21|1-28|

:4greninja:
Total Frames|Endlag|Invincibility
49|20|1-29|

:4duckhunt:
Total Frames|Endlag|Invincibility
49|19|1-30|

:4rob:
Total Frames|Endlag|Invincibility
49|19|1-30|

:4ness:
Total Frames|Endlag|Invincibility
49|26|1-23|

:4falcon:
Total Frames|Endlag|Invincibility
49|24|1-25|

:4villager:
Total Frames|Endlag|Invincibility
49|22|1-27|

:4olimar:
Total Frames|Endlag|Invincibility
49|21|1-28|

:4wiifit:
Total Frames|Endlag|Invincibility
49|23|1-26|

:4drmario:
Total Frames|Endlag|Invincibility
49|17|1-32|

:4shulk:
Total Frames|Endlag|Invincibility
49|17|1-32|

:4pacman:
Total Frames|Endlag|Invincibility
49|19|1-30|

:4megaman:
Total Frames|Endlag|Invincibility
49|19|1-30|

:4sonic:
Total Frames|Endlag|Invincibility
49|18|1-31|

:4mewtwo:
Total Frames|Endlag|Invincibility
49|22|1-27|

:4lucas:
[No crying until the end.]

:4miibrawl:
Total Frames|Endlag|Invincibility
49|20|1-29|

:4miisword:
Total Frames|Endlag|Invincibility
49|22|1-27|

:4miigun:
Total Frames|Endlag|Invincibility
49|22|1-27|


  • I'll add Mewtwo soon
  • Lucas too when he arrives
  • I'll be adding in WFT specific data once I decide whether or not to port this as is to the competitive discussion forum
 
Last edited:

⑨ball

Smash Ace
Joined
Oct 6, 2014
Messages
819
Ledge Stands

:4mario:

Total Frames|Endlag|Invincibility
34|1|1-33

:4luigi:
Total Frames|Endlag|Invincibility
34|1|1-33

:4peach:
Total Frames|Endlag|Invincibility
32|1|1-31

:4bowser:
Total Frames|Endlag|Invincibility
35|1|1-34

:4yoshi:
Total Frames|Endlag|Invincibility|
33|1|1-32

:rosalina:
Total Frames|Endlag|Invincibility
34|1|1-33

:4bowserjr:
Total Frames|Endlag|Invincibility
34|1|1-33

:4wario2:
Total Frames|Endlag|Invincibility
34|1|1-33

:4gaw:
Total Frames|Endlag|Invincibility
34|1|1-33

:4dk:
Total Frames|Endlag|Invincibility
34|1|1-33

:4diddy:
Total Frames|Endlag|Invincibility
34|1|1-33

:4link:
Total Frames|Endlag|Invincibility
34|1|1-33

:4zelda:
Total Frames|Endlag|Invincibility
33|1|1-32

:4sheik:
Total Frames|Endlag|Invincibility
34|1|1-33

:4ganondorf:
Total Frames|Endlag|Invincibility
33|1|1-32

:4tlink:
Total Frames|Endlag|Invincibility
34|1|1-33

:4samus:
Total Frames|Endlag|Invincibility
32|1|1-31

:4zss:
Total Frames|Endlag|Invincibility
34|1|1-33

:4pit::4darkpit:
Total Frames|Endlag|Invincibility
34|1|1-33

:4palutena:
Total Frames|Endlag|Invincibility
44|1|1-33

:4marth::4lucina:
Total Frames|Endlag|Invincibility
32|1|1-31

:4myfriends:
Total Frames|Endlag|Invincibility
34|1|1-33|

:4robinf:
Total Frames|Endlag|Invincibility
34|1|1-33|

:4kirby:
Total Frames|Endlag|Invincibility
33|1|1-32

:4dedede:
Total Frames|Endlag|Invincibility
34|1|1-33

:4metaknight:
Total Frames|Endlag|Invincibility
34|1|1-33

:4littlemac:
Total Frames|Endlag|Invincibility
32|1|1-33

:4fox:
Total Frames|Endlag|Invincibility
34|1|1-33

:4falco:
Total Frames|Endlag|Invincibility
34|1|1-33

:4pikachu:
Total Frames|Endlag|Invincibility
32|1|1-31

:4charizard:
Total Frames|Endlag|Invincibility
34|1|1-33

:4lucario:
Total Frames|Endlag|Invincibility
34|1|1-33

:4jigglypuff:
Total Frames|Endlag|Invincibility
34|1|1-33|

:4greninja:
Total Frames|Endlag|Invincibility
32|1|1-31

:4duckhunt:
Total Frames|Endlag|Invincibility
34|1|1-33

:4rob:
Total Frames|Endlag|Invincibility
35|1|1-34

:4ness:
Total Frames|Endlag|Invincibility
34|1|1-33

:4falcon:
Total Frames|Endlag|Invincibility
32|1|1-33

:4villager:
Total Frames|Endlag|Invincibility
34|1|1-33

:4olimar:
Total Frames|Endlag|Invincibility
34|1|1-33

:4wiifit:
Total Frames|Endlag|Invincibility
33|1|1-32

:4drmario:
Total Frames|Endlag|Invincibility
34|1|1-33

:4shulk:
Total Frames|Endlag|Invincibility
34|1|1-33

:4pacman:
Total Frames|Endlag|Invincibility
34|1|1-33

:4megaman:
Total Frames|Endlag|Invincibility
34|1|1-33

:4sonic:
Total Frames|Endlag|Invincibility
34|1|1-33

:4mewtwo:
Total Frames|Endlag|Invincibility
34|1|1-33

:4lucas:
[There's a doorknob at your feet.]

:4miibrawl:
Total Frames|Endlag|Invincibility
44|1|1-43

:4miisword:
Total Frames|Endlag|Invincibility
44|1|1-43

:4miigun:
Total Frames|Endlag|Invincibility
44|1|1-43|
 
Last edited:

⑨ball

Smash Ace
Joined
Oct 6, 2014
Messages
819
Trump Distances

1:16 - Mario, Luigi, Peach
3:45 - Bowser, Yoshi, Rosalina
7:00 - Bowser Jr., Wario, G&W
9:15 - DK, Diddy, Link
11:36 - Zelda, Sheik, Ganon
14:25 - Toon Link, Samus, ZSS
17:03 - Pit, Palutena, Marth
19:35 - Ike, Robin, Kirby
22:09 - Dedede, MK, Little Mac
25:27 - Fox, Falco, Pikachu
28:25 - Charizard, Lucario, Jigglypuff
31:16 - Greninja, Duck Hunt, ROB
33:31 - Ness, Falcon, Villager
36:50 - Olimar, WFT, Dr. Mario
39:28 - Dark Pit, Lucina, Shulk
42:30 - Pac-Man, Mega Man, Sonic



Here is a list of highest to lowest arcs when trumped. If some characters identical or pixels apart, I've put them in the same group.

Fox
Pikachu/Greninja/Megaman
Sheik/Falco
Mario/Metaknight/Olimar/Dr. Mario
Bowser Jr/Charizard
Luigi/Kirby/Jigglypuff/Pacman
Wario/Toon Link/Duck Hunt/Ness/Villager/Rob
G&W/Sonic
Marth/Lucina
Yoshi/ZSS
Peach/Link/Diddy/Pit/Dark Pit
Robin/Mac/Lucario/Wii Fit/Shulk
Palutena
Bowser/Falcon
Rosalina/Zelda/Ike
Dedede
DK/Ganon/Samus

If your character has a wall jump and you get ledge trumped, you can cancel your ledge trump animation by inputting a wall jump on the first frame. You can buffer the wall jump command, too, so it's not hard to do. IASA on wall jumps appears to be Frame 1 (or very close to it), so you don't miss a beat and can punish opponents trying to ledge trump you or just get on-stage relatively safely.

EDIT: This appears to be both character-specific and stage-specific. I can't get it to work on Smashville at all, and Villager can't do it on the stage it initially happened on (Omega 75m), but Greninja and Falcon can.

EDIT2: I think I found the cause. Ledge trumps can be canceled by wall jumping, but most of the time characters' feet are too far away or you can't wall jump that high on a stage.

You can do it on Duck Hunt (the stage, not-Omega form) with Captain Falcon, Dr. Mario, Greninja, Little Mac, Lucario, Mario, Mega Man, Mii Brawler, Mii Gunner, Pac-Man, Samus, Sheik, Sonic, Toon Link, and Zero Suit Samus. (The characters that cannot are Diddy Kong, Duck Hunt, Falco, Fox, Mewtwo, Pikachu, Villager, Wii Fit Trainer.)

On Omega 75m, it appears that only Falcon, Greninja, and ZSS can do it. There are likely other Omega stages this works on, but I'm not going to test every single one.

EDIT3:
  • All of these characters are trump>bair ok but when it comes to the top 4 arcs your timing needs to be different
  • I'll very likely separate the time stamps into individual characters at some point
  • I don't plan on testing the other Omega stages either, but it might happen depending on how prevalent trump cancelling becomes.
Ledge Drops
Some ledge drop differences; not all ledge drops are created equally.
Can be hit by the average D-Tilt/D-Smash: Bowser Jr., Charizard, Donkey Kong, Dr. Mario, Duck Hunt, Falco, Greninja, Jigglypuff, Link, Kirby, Lucina, Luigi, Mario, Marth, Mega Man, Meta Knight, Mii Brawler, Mii Gunner, Mii Swordsman, Olimar, Pac-Man, Pikachu, R.O.B., Rosalina, Sonic, Toon Link, Villager

Can only be hit by moves hitting under the ledge: Fox, Ganondorf, Ike, Little Mac, Lucario, Lucas, Ness, Palutena, Peach, Robin, Roy, Sheik, Shulk, Wario, Wii Fit Trainer, Yoshi, Zelda, Zero Suit Samus

Basically cannot be hit by a grounded opponent: Bowser, Captain Falcon, Dark Pit, Diddy Kong, King Dedede, Mewtwo, Mr. Game and Watch, Pit, Ryu, Samus


Ledge Jump Vulnerability

 
Last edited:

⑨ball

Smash Ace
Joined
Oct 6, 2014
Messages
819
SO, what is all this razzafrazz and why the heck should you care?
This, my dear trainers, is a closer look at a portion of your advantage state. Consider it a study guide or a pre-match cheat sheet. Taking in this information combined with everything else we've covered thus far in her meta will help you capitalize on your advantage completely. To start us off, lets reacquaint ourselves with the ledge mechanics before we go into how to cover the options our opponents have:





    • When you grab the ledge you are forced to hold onto it for a minimum of 19-20 frames depending on your character



    • During your hold you will be granted a certain amount of invincibility depending on your %



    • If you attempt to grab the ledge again without first being hit or touching the stage, you will receive no invincibility



    • After the mandatory some odd 19 frames you can stand from the ledge, let go/drop from the ledge, roll, jump, or attack



    • You can not immediately re-grab the edge after coming in contact with it



    • If someone else grabs the ledge during these mandatory 20 frames with out any button inputs, you are shoved off and unable act for some time (not sure on the exact frames)



    • If you press a button however, it will buffer the corresponding option into the first available frame after the hold preventing any ledge trumps

Essentially~

You have to hold the ledge for a 1/3 of a second after grabbing no matter what
Trump>Ledge Climb and Ledge Release
Roll, Jump, Attack >Trump
Regrabbing the ledge without touching the stage of getting hit means you are vulnerable for 20 frames

Ledge Trumps
If you are still not incorporating ledge trumps into your game you need to start. Having this option work so well with WFT's frame 5, 13-15(db)% killing bair is pretty healthy. Having this also work with instant ledge hops to setup dair spikes and dsmash is powerful. Having the fear of being trumped bait your opponent into buffering 1 of 3 options that can result in a kill far below 100% is the apogee of fitness.

If you can't gimp or kill you should be constantly looking to maximize your damage and extend your advantage without reaching too hard. Letting opponents know that you can and will kill them if they slip up is how you condition them into making fast decisions that are just as terrible for them. Speaking of which...

Ledge Roll
This is the most popular option to buffer against the fear of ledge trumps and for good reason as it's generally the safest option, putting some distance between you and your opponent with a reasonable amount of invincibility to cover your travel. As a WFT player you should be ecstatic when players buffer rolls against you, because ledge rolls are the greatest opportunities you can force to land a FFnair and as you know this can lead to anything from a simple 25%+ punish, a bair/header reset of your edgeguard, or KOs as early as 60% with no rage.

With the lowest endlag being 16 frames (Sheik and DDD) you're guaranteed plenty of time to punish hard on the entire cast as long as you're in position to do so and not flailing about in midair trying to predict where they'll stop. There's is nothing that will encourage your opponent to get ledge trumped more than KOing them for buffering.

Ledge Jump
A rarer option for sure but not completely unheard of and it tends to be more common amongst certain characters and playstyle than others. It's the fastest option from the ledge at 12 frames with invincibility all the way through. However, it's not common as it puts you in the air above your opponent, a naturally disadvantaged in most fighting games with Smash being no exception.

SS can sometimes catch this option as it leaves the ledge but honestly you'd be better off holding it for a landing trap and trying to juggle them as they try to land. Constantly killing against the other options can make this option more likely to be used, in which case feel free to use header. It's long active frames will make short work of it and be be extremely satisfying. Be sure to look for it against characters with tether recoveries(ZSS, Link, Samus) and characters with strong disadvantage states (Diddy, Sheik, Pikachu).

Ledge Climb
The most popular option in competitive play. With the way trumps, buffering, and ledge climbs work, in most cases players opt to simply retain their stage control and advantage state rather than attempt something that can beaten so easily making ledge climbs with their insanely safe 1 frame of vulnerability the obvious choice for anyone looking to recover safely. For an option that looks so punishable, there's very few normals/aerials you want to risk catching that 1 frame with. Our longest active normal is usmash at a pityable 9 frames which has an abysmal horizontal hitbox, and even sadder recovery time (57 frames). Alas, what is a poor trainer to do?

One option I don't see nearly enough is simply shooting SS. During the climb they are sitting ducks, and if you're in position to punish this, you most likely did not attempt to edge guard for one reason or another in which case, you should have either gone for deep breathing or charged SS. It's already excellent at catching airdodges, as long as you know the general amount of stand time (beware Palutena and the Miis) you shouldn't have any trouble landing this for an unstaled 18% and edgeguard reset/KO. However, SS for all it's utility and safety is fairly weak as a KO move killing from the default training positions on omegas around 130-140, the same as her ftilt.

This is why an alternative option requires us to revisit some older tech. For those that remember this guide, we touched on header cancels and their utility. In this case we're looking at the hitbox extending properties that occur when hitting header. Not only does this work with header as is, letting you catch the 1 frame and combo into SS for the kill at later percents, it also works when canceled and attacked, letting you use much riskier moves like Fsmash and Dsmash to go for kills or much harder punishes. Obviously things like header cancel>ftilt and jab work as well for faster options that require much less precision for good damage while retaining your SS charge too.

Finally, it's also worth it to take another look at Solar Wind. A more reactive option than the others for a trade of less commitment, charging SS just in front of opponents will push them if they attempt any option that isn't shield letting you counter grab or punish with SS on reaction to grounded offensive and defensive options. This position also affords you easy access to OoS bair against rolls and a burst option should they be wary and remain in shield.

All different yet powerful in their own way, use them make it very clear that making it back to the ledge against WFT does not mean you have recovered.

Ledge Release
[to be completed] A lot of players avoid this because of the same reasons as ledge jump with the added possibility of having to regrab the ledge without invincibility but it happens from time to time and is more common from characters with solid disjoints like Villager.


Putting it all Together
[to be completed] Covering multiple options, kill percents, ect.
 
Last edited:

Lord_Espurr

Smash Cadet
Joined
May 17, 2015
Messages
54
NNID
Wheresthetoilet
3DS FC
5129-1941-8904
It seems to me that feigning a legde trump and punishing the get-up with the header could be a thing. It covers every option except ledge releasing.
 
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