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TFOB II (P:M and Melee) - July 20th, 2013 - Mishawaka, IN

KishSquared

Smash Master
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Jun 4, 2003
Messages
3,857
Location
Osceola, IN
The Flame of Bowser has been lost to time. However, in its wake lies none other than the TRUE FLAME OF BOWSER II!

July 20th, 2013
River Valley Church
55855 Bittersweet Road
Mishawaka, IN 46545

Schedule:
10am Venue opens, good times begin!
11am P:M Doubles
2pm P:M Singles
5pm Melee Singles
7pm P:M Crews??? Or Melee Doubles, depending on interest
10pm Cleanup and out!

Entry Fees:
Venue: $3 (waived if you bring a setup)
P:M/Melee Singles: $5
Doubles: $5 per person
Crews: Free!

Payout:
1st place: 60%
2nd place: 30%
3rd place: 10%


Ruleset (thanks as always to Sethlon for giving me a base for this, totally without his knowledge!):

1. 4 Stocks
2. 8 Minute Time Limit
3. Items set to “Off” and “None”
4. Buffer set to OFF (is buffer even still around?)
5. Dave’s ORIGINAL Stupid Rule: No player can counter pick a stage already played upon unless agreed upon by both players.
6. Controller mods are fine, I guess? Is this not a 2006 issue?
7. In the event of a match going to time, the winner will be determined by:
a. Whoever has more remaining stock left.
b. If stocks of both players are the same, the winner will then be determined by whoever has less percent.
c. If the match ends with both players dying at the same time or if time ran out with both players at equal percent, an identical rematch of the previous match will be played out. Same characters and same stage.
d. In the event of going to sudden death because of suicide kill move (such as Ganon's overB or Dedede's inhale), the player initiating the move will be declared the winner.
8. Sets will be best out of 3 games. Loser's Finals, Winner's Finals, and Grand Finals will be best out of 5.

Addendum for Doubles
1. Team Attack set to “On”
2. Life stealing is allowed. (Note that lifestealing in Project: M is done by pressing A+B, rather than start)
3. In the event of a game going to time, the winner will be determined by:
a. Whichever team has more remaining stock.
b. If both teams have an equal amount of combined stocks, then whichever team has a lower combined percent is declared the winner.

Character/Stage Selection Process
1. Blind Picks character selection.
2. Stage Striking: Players eliminate stages from the Starter Stage List until only 1 remains, and the players then play the first match on that stage. Players strike stages in 1 2 2 1 order.
3. The first match is played.
4. Winning player of the preceding match bans two stages.
5. The losing player of preceding match picks stage for the next match.
6. The winning player of preceding match picks character.
7. The losing player picks character.
8. The next match is played.
9. Repeat 4-8 for all consecutive matches as necessary until the set is complete.


Stagelist:
STARTERS:
Battlefield, Dreamland, Final Destination, Pokemon Stadium 2, Smashville, Yoshi's Story (Melee), Fountain of Dreams (Singles Only), Yoshi’s Island Brawl (Doubles Only)

LEGAL STAGES:
All stages on the front page, minus SSE Jungle, Norfair, and Skyworld


Melee Rules: FC rules in effect!

***STAGELIST NOT SET IN STONE!!!***
Feel free to debate stages!
 

KishSquared

Smash Master
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Messages
3,857
Location
Osceola, IN
This is primarily a P:M event, though you know there will be Melee action as well! I've posted it a tad early but I wanted to get it out there for everyone. Looking forward to seeing some Midwest smashers again!
 

KishSquared

Smash Master
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Jun 4, 2003
Messages
3,857
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Osceola, IN
Okay, we're 20 days out from the big(?) event! Anyone want to come??

EDIT: Looks like I messed up by posting this without a MIDWEST tag. Many apologies for my Smashboards-fail. Things have gotten so fancy since my hayday.
 

Solharath

[ZTD] CEO
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Aug 7, 2007
Messages
1,603
Location
North Muskegon, Michigan
This is a shorter drive for me than Ann Arbor... It's right after my vacation(to, amusingly enough, SE MI), so we'll see if I can justify the trip out.

Edit: Whoa, that stagelist is awful. And only two bans? I can't begin to ban a stagetype with that many stages and so few bans. It's a lose-lose situation across the board when it comes to counterpicking.
 

JTsm

Smash Master
Joined
Apr 19, 2010
Messages
3,230
Yeah I'll most likely come to this. Bringing a wii+P:M, but no tv.
 

KishSquared

Smash Master
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Messages
3,857
Location
Osceola, IN
Edit: Whoa, that stagelist is awful. And only two bans? I can't begin to ban a stagetype with that many stages and so few bans. It's a lose-lose situation across the board when it comes to counterpicking.
The stagelist is not set in stone. To be honest, I stole the rules from what Sethlon uses for his regular PM tournaments down south, lol. I'm definitely up for a debate! Let me know what you'd rather see.
 

Solharath

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The stagelist is not set in stone. To be honest, I stole the rules from what Sethlon uses for his regular PM tournaments down south, lol. I'm definitely up for a debate! Let me know what you'd rather see.
I'm usually with Overswarm in saying that it's much to early to be banning any stage, unless there is something inherently broken about it - That really only includes Castle Siege and the fact it rarely pulls someone under the stage during transitions. The rest usually see bans due to untested theories, such as SSE: Jungle(It's large horizontally, but the low ceiling makes it fantastic for some characters).

I usually see either three or four bans, in order to remove a stage type from play. Otherwise, only having two bans leaves too many stages a certain character may be able to excel on against your character that it becomes an exercise in futility to even have bans.

For example, I never want to take Falcon to a stage where a knee at 40% will kill me, and that's Yoshi's Story, WarioWare, and Green Hill. Usually Fountain too. I'm very aware Falcon wants to take different characters to different stages, but those stages are generally true for Bowser as well(except nix Fountain for Metal Cavern).

Sooo, I'd like to see the front page, as the Project M team intended, all legal, with four bans. Arguments can be made for Castle Seige, of course.
 

Maestro_

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Well I think SSE Jungle was intended only as a doubles stage and Metal Cavern only has a singles stage (which is why they're in the top corners of the page), but other than that, I 2nd that notion.
 

KishSquared

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Osceola, IN
I'll spend some time this weekend reviewing the stages. Overswarm learned stage theory from us (/old man rant), so rest assured we'll not hastily ban anything.

Just keep in mind that the PM team isn't the end-all for stage selection. If we did everything as the developers intended, we'd have starmen enabled (like we did at Snexus 2 in 2003... dang I'm old)!
 

KishPrime

King of the Ship of Fools
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I DON'T UNDERSTAND HOW TO RSVP.

Also this will be really fun. Between the two Kishes alone, I believe we have about 15 televisions and 4-5 setups for P:M and Melee, so we'll have whatever we need.
 

Maestro_

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I DON'T UNDERSTAND HOW TO RSVP.
Click on the yes where it says yes maybe or no at the top and click post. And write a comment if you want which shows up when you scroll onto the people's names on the RSVP list.
 

JTsm

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I DON'T UNDERSTAND HOW TO RSVP.

Also this will be really fun. Between the two Kishes alone, I believe we have about 15 televisions and 4-5 setups for P:M and Melee, so we'll have whatever we need.
God damn. I guess I'll bring a Wii+PM.
 

Solharath

[ZTD] CEO
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Messages
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North Muskegon, Michigan
I'll spend some time this weekend reviewing the stages. Overswarm learned stage theory from us (/old man rant), so rest assured we'll not hastily ban anything.

Just keep in mind that the PM team isn't the end-all for stage selection. If we did everything as the developers intended, we'd have starmen enabled (like we did at Snexus 2 in 2003... dang I'm old)!
Of course not, like the Music Man Maestro said, they "intended" for SSE Jungle to be Doubles only and Metal Cavern to be Singles Only, where as I find both stages to be very good on both fronts.

Also, building separate starters for doubles would be MOST appreciated. Doubles on Yoshi's and FoD is hella cramped. I'd recommend swapping those out for Skyloft and SSE:Jungle as starters. SSE: Jungle is different enough, yet stable enough to warrant being a started in 2v2, and Skyloft... well, I love it because it has different geography over every other stage in P:M, and makes a great starter because of it. You don't need to have 7 starters be homogenized into the same layout... hardly makes striking worthwhile.
 

KishSquared

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SSE: Jungle seems like far too large a stage for singles play, at least. But I obviously haven't tested it with tournament play yet. Should be fun to get some good data!
 

Strong Badam

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IMO both SSE:J and Metal Cavern are awful for both singles and doubles.
 

Solharath

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Well, then remove them from Page 1 and put in that sexy Summit stage I see floating around sometimes. I ain't the dev here, SB. =P

I just find removing stages - especially in a demo and it's limited lifetime, to be too constrictive. Allowing a lot of stages, and enough bans to remove a certain stage type, to be solid enough without resorting to simply banning due to taste. I still can't believe how often I see Norfair banned.
 

Scythe

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sse jungle is the worst stage i have ever played on in a doubles tournament. Rather play on laggy FoD in melee.
 

KishSquared

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Osceola, IN
I'm not seeing any reason to ban SSE:J, Skyworld, or Norfair. If anything I'd ban SSE:J, but again, we don't have the data to support it, and I'd rather not ban something prematurely.

Any other thoughts or opinions?
 

JTsm

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SSE is a terrible singles stage.

It's actually fun in doubles.
 

KishPrime

King of the Ship of Fools
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I hope by FC rules for Melee you mean "FC 2007 rules."

I don't know what any of these acronyms are I just play the game.

ALSO PEOPLE SHOULD TOTALLY COME.
 

KishSquared

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Osceola, IN
Why not very high? Very high maximizes the use of our time and efforts. I would hate to travel all the way to South Bend just to NOT see a battle swayed by the effects of a Starman.
 

IronSquid

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I feel like crying. I have $1 to my name and I just found out about this. I still remember P:M doubles last year. Y'all peer pressured me into entering and I didn't even bother to look at the screen during the matches.

I wanted to reclaim my dignity after getting embarrassed by a Bowser during friendlies last year, but it's doubtful that I'll make it.
 

KishSquared

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Messages
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Osceola, IN
Nooooo Iron Squid! Hopefully a miracle happens and Santa Claus jumps out at you on a street corner and stuffs your pockets with cash. Or maybe that's the BK King. Either way.

Sounds like we have some Chicago and Ft Wayne attendance planned, despite the lack of posts :) Hoping to hit some good numbers for this thing!
 

Overswarm

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I'll spend some time this weekend reviewing the stages. Overswarm learned stage theory from us (/old man rant), so rest assured we'll not hastily ban anything.

Just keep in mind that the PM team isn't the end-all for stage selection. If we did everything as the developers intended, we'd have starmen enabled (like we did at Snexus 2 in 2003... dang I'm old)!

And it has caused the East Coast much rage for an entire other generation.


As for the people complaining about stage bans, in my day we had ONE ban and we had to ban Fountain of Dreams if we wanted to play Captain Falcon because we could get it randomly and it'd throw off our whole set because we'd get taken to Rainbow Cruise or Pokefloats and we liked it!


But for serious, I never really got the new mentality of "Uh, my character isn't good against this other character on these stages, so can you give me enough bans to cover them all?"

Bans are for preference.
Stage list is for balance.

If you need two bans because otherwise you lose 100%, either you're playing a limited character who is destined to be bad unless the stage list is tailored towards them or the stage list needs to be revamped.


From my testing of SSE Jungle there have been no issues with the stage and circle camping isn't possible (except Sonic vs. Jigglypuff, in which case it totally is). Dunno about Norfair/Skyworld.

Castle Siege glitch / PS1 glitch where you fall through the floor can be remedied by jumping prior to the transformation if I recall correctly.


I miss the kishes and playing smash. :(
 

JTsm

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I honestly don't care about the stages for both singles and doubles.

If anyone wants to team up, hmu.
 

KishSquared

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Osceola, IN
Overswarm, where are you and why aren't you coming!?

Sonic vs Jigglypuff would be nasty on SSE:J. For now we'll leave it on, but we'll keep a close eye on it. It was on at FC and I never heard any major complaints (though Sonic was different in 2.1)

Woo, Smash!
 

Overswarm

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Overswarm, where are you and why aren't you coming!?

Sonic vs Jigglypuff would be nasty on SSE:J. For now we'll leave it on, but we'll keep a close eye on it. It was on at FC and I never heard any major complaints (though Sonic was different in 2.1)

Woo, Smash!

Northern Kentucky, nearly 5 hours away D:
 
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