Technicals and you.

[PaperstSoapCo]

I was practicing with ganon and I noticed the only real techniques that I didn't have an easy consistant method for executing were Reverse LD and pivot tilts. This of course effects my play style since RLD can kill you if you do it early and getting the wrong input from any pivot tilt/jab attempt can ruin the timing for quick spaced attack. I tend to use ledge hop run offs often because certain stages are too difficult to execute RLD on.

With all the techniques ganon has what's stoping a ganon main from applying them in every match? How can you apply techs that you have a hard time pulling off without the opponents pressure?

I had fun messing with pivot set ups cause I finally learned a sure way to get them out every time and it was surprisingly easier than I initially thought. The secret is learn how to dash dance without smashing the sticks to their threshold and as soon as you move the control stick to the center (time the attack with your hand movement not what ganon looks like on screen)press 'A' multiple times fast. Jabs is same method just flick to turn. Just like in jC grabs make the conscious effort in pressing 'A' after you have just pressed the joystick to the side. Pivot tilts couldn't be easier.

Ganon has tons of tech tricks. It would be cool if we could compile some of Ganon's more difficult looking techs and broke down the easiest way to execute and practice them. I putt up pivots as an example of a hard tech that doesnt become viable till you learn the easy method to pulling it out consistently.

I'll fix up the first post in the next few days with some techs and tricks that look harder than they are. Till then you guys are more than welcomed to post on any techs.

*Work in progress*
Reverse ledge dash-
Run off dj platform dash-
Infinite invincibility ledge hop-
Jump canceling chain grabs-
Pivoting smashes-
Multiple ledge canceled aerials-

 

[Superspright]

I can do pivot jabs easily and consistently either way (but I argue that it's not very useful because human reaction isn't as good as a TAS video), and I am currently working on pivot dtilt and pivot ftilt. Pivot uptilt is thankfully useless for us, but it is near impossible to do it.

I usually try your method that you are explaining, but it's very hard to get the timing down because you need to be able to do it without thinking at all. A lot of pivot stuff requires some thought, and thought is what gets us killed. We have to be fairly fluid to get our licks in on our opponents...opponents like peach or falco/fox have a macro game to rely on that is pretty much bread->butter->toast->profit!!

The way I do pivot jab is I flick left, then when I flick back I release immediately after the flick and then hit A. It returns to neutral at that timing. I am still having problems with ftilt though because my hands are not good at 'finesse' stuff but are good at twitchy things like DDing and PSing attacks, teching, etc.

 

[PaperstSoapCo]

That's the thing, it hasn't been explored so people still see it as a tight reaction time move.

I was practicing WDing out of shield then dash out some more then pivot. It's the best way to create pressure and get more room.

Dtilts shouldn't be so hard but honestly I was too happy with faults to try and switch it up with down tilts. Would be cool to dash away dtilt.

 

[Superspright]

To win with Ganon you gotta be like a kung-fu master. You have to have all the options and be able to use them based on what your opponent does. It's hard to be DDIng and then go to a pivot jab/ftilt without expecting their option. It's always easier to react with uair/retreating fair since it doesn't require much thought to put out a massive wall or a quick aerial.

If Ganon's wanna win something again we gotta be able to do all the fundamentals to the point they are easy to us. No one so far has been able to put everything together all at once. It's possible for Ganon to win--it's just absurdly hard. No one is going to try as hard as us though to get little things down besides low-tiers.

Plus, no Ganon has been able to perfect the chaingrab the way Armada perfected his. If anyone could do that, and incorporate good fundamentals into their game we may see Ganon winning a national again--but I'm not betting on it.

 

[PaperstSoapCo]

I hear that. Techs are so important for ganon. I forgot to mention that when dash dancing and readying a pivot I'm conscious about when the stick goes past the center. Once im dding and i feel the stick go to the center thats when I mash A if that helps any.

I do have a few sweet set ups for pivot ftilt that I've been using a lot and that's dthrow/uthrow (uthrow mostly) to pivot ftilt when your opponent decides to DI in place. Mostly using it to stay grounded while hitting the opponent off stage.

I use a lot of run canceled moves but pivots are great rhythm breakers.

What's Gannon's tech game looking like recently?

 

[Superspright]

I hear that. Techs are so important for ganon. I forgot to mention that when dash dancing and readying a pivot I'm conscious about when the stick goes past the center. Once im dding and i feel the stick go to the center thats when I mash A if that helps any.

I do have a few sweet set ups for pivot ftilt that I've been using a lot and that's dthrow/uthrow (uthrow mostly) to pivot ftilt when your opponent decides to DI in place. Mostly using it to stay grounded while hitting the opponent off stage.

I use a lot of run canceled moves but pivots are great rhythm breakers.

What's Gannon's tech game looking like recently?

His tech game is very defensive and CCing all the time. I think it's wrong honestly, because it just doesn't get far into bracket. It's not the player's fault per se...we just don't have a good game theory for him yet. Armada had a knack at making a so-so character look like an unstoppable force. We have that ability as well, but it's harder to get. The main thing that a pro-ganon needs is the chaingrab on the spacies/shiek. If that was perfected he'd see a lot more openings, and certainly that Ganon player would clean up everyone in the lower end of the bracket because they can still get shield-grabbed and baited for grabs.

 

[Bl@ckChris]

shield drops would be useful, but they're not easy until you learn the trick. if you use a quarter circle down motion after just putting your shield up, it's not particularly hard. i'm pretty sure i use it in the sets that should be uploaded soon, and it can be used to put hitboxes in unexpected places at unexpected times.

edit: nowadays, i think rockcrock is the go to ganon on the shield drops, as his most recent combo video is centered around them, and they look rather effective.

 

[Superspright]

If you can shielddrop effectively you can turn battlefield into final destination in terms of the aerial game. You can just drop uairs/bairs like crazy. No one really talks about the snap-bair on battlefield. When you do it perfectly you can FH but not go through the platform and hit people on it. I've always liked it because it's good for tech-chases because you don't commit so fully that you can't catch the reaction.

Shield-dropping is the #1 tech that Ganon needs right now. He's trash on platforms without it, and it speeds him up considerably.

 

[Divinokage]

To win with Ganon you gotta be like a kung-fu master. You have to have all the options and be able to use them based on what your opponent does. It's hard to be DDIng and then go to a pivot jab/ftilt without expecting their option. It's always easier to react with uair/retreating fair since it doesn't require much thought to put out a massive wall or a quick aerial.

If Ganon's wanna win something again we gotta be able to do all the fundamentals to the point they are easy to us. No one so far has been able to put everything together all at once. It's possible for Ganon to win--it's just absurdly hard. No one is going to try as hard as us though to get little things down besides low-tiers.

Plus, no Ganon has been able to perfect the chaingrab the way Armada perfected his. If anyone could do that, and incorporate good fundamentals into their game we may see Ganon winning a national again--but I'm not betting on it.

Ya but even if you have all that, it doesnt change the fact that as soon as you get hit.. you'll likely get damaged very hard. You still have a crappy recovery, that's why sometimes you either have to change your down-B timings going to the stage or simply not to use it at all in an attempt to recover... and even then.. you still die off-stage too easy. You'd have to play too perfect to win.

 

[-ACE-]

shield drops are so boss, if you frame perfect fair afterward that punishes someone standing on the platform next to you.

 

[Superspright]

You can also edge-cancel dair->fair/uair/bair. I also wanna do the triple dair on BF, or the double edge-canceled dair -> fair.

No one is doing anything cool anymore. These things are impractical but possible. I think every Ganon should know the percents and damages for edge-cancelled dair into utilt. I think every Ganon should learn his chaingrab...etc. All of his frame perfect techs aren't developed yet for anyone. I don't like to hate on Kage or Linguini or whoever, but you guys need to get the chaingrab. It breaks any matchup you can score a grab in.

 

[-ACE-]

You can also edge-cancel dair->fair/uair/bair. I also wanna do the triple dair on BF, or the double edge-canceled dair -> fair.

No one is doing anything cool anymore. These things are impractical but possible. I think every Ganon should know the percents and damages for edge-cancelled dair into utilt. I think every Ganon should learn his chaingrab...etc. All of his frame perfect techs aren't developed yet for anyone. I don't like to hate on Kage or Linguini or whoever, but you guys need to get the chaingrab. It breaks any matchup you can score a grab in.

Triple dair on BF? Yeah I'd like to see that too. I can show you a triple bair or uair though with one edge cancel (same way tipman does it).

EDGE CANCELLED DAIR INTO UTILT?!?!?! You seriously are flirting with the epitome of the definition of situational. I happen to know 57% for falco on lower platforms from watching that one magus vid, and yes I do keep that in mind, but have I ever landed it? Hell no.

His chaingrab on the other hand is very important, Ganons have been neglecting it for years and that **** should be second nature. But everyone just doesn't want to or isn't good enough. Grabbing Falco when he's at 70% or above on FD should mean death for falco (dthrow to down-B at 140%). And on levels with platforms, you get free techchases out of dthrow. It's guaranteed damage, and usually a vital component of delivering maximum punishment from a grab.

btw I say 70 for falco because that is about where I personally draw the line with going for the chaingrab. I know ganon can cg falco from like 20-death or something but let's face it it's ****ing tough as balls at low%. Against fox I can't even think about doing it until he's at a % where I should just bair him for the ko instead lol.

 

[FrackinKraken]

another tech I'd like to add (maybe it's just me finding difficulty with it) is ledge drop/jump/wave land back on stage. I see you top level players doing it all the time, but whenever I try I always end up in a shield back on stage, instead of wave landing.

 

[DarkMagicX2]

another tech I'd like to add (maybe it's just me finding difficulty with it) is ledge drop/jump/wave land back on stage. I see you top level players doing it all the time, but whenever I try I always end up in a shield back on stage, instead of wave landing.

If you're shielding instead of wavelanding you are probably just trying the waveland too late. Also unfortunate is if you try it too early, you end up airdodging into the ledge and dying. I've been practicing ledgedashing for months now as well. It gets better with each practice session. If you have access to Project M I would suggest trying the technique there as Ganondorf seems to have a higher midair jump in that game. Also what do you do for the ledgedrop->midair jump? Because stick6: -> :stick7: -> :stick1:+:rtrigger: or :ltrigger: (assuming you're on a right ledge) is the best option for this manuver I believe.

 

[Uncle Daniel]

If you have access to Project M I would suggest trying the technique there as Ganondorf seems to have a higher midair jump in that game. Also what do you do for the ledgedrop->midair jump? Because stick6: -> :stick7: -> :stick1:+:rtrigger: or :ltrigger: (assuming you're on a right ledge) is the best option for this manuver I believe.

Weird. I do the ledgedrop by tapping away on the control stick, and then jump with Y. I have no problem ledgedashing from the right side, but SD doing it from the left all the time. I suspect that much of my problem with that is mental, though.

Also, I've found that Project M's Ganon only makes my tech skill worse in Melee, because of how much easier it is to ledgedash.

 

[PaperstSoapCo]

Because stick6: -> :stick7: -> :stick1:+:rtrigger: or :ltrigger: (assuming you're on a right ledge) is the best option for this manuver I believe.

When you ledge dash this is one of the easier methods but you don't hold diagonal down ever. Basically once you get your ledge hop off with diagonal up/forward just hold forward and air dodge. Your ledgedash will go way farther.

Is there any trick for shield dropping? Just wondering if there's a better way to do it than how in doing it now.

 

[DarkMagicX2]

When you ledge dash this is one of the easier methods but you don't hold diagonal down ever. Basically once you get your ledge hop off with diagonal up/forward just hold forward and air dodge. Your ledgedash will go way farther.

I know not to hold down-diagonal, but I thought you had to hold just barely below forward to get max distance, and holding forward would make you airdodge onto the stage.

Edit: Never mind, you're right.

 

[PaperstSoapCo]

Darkmagikx2: same goes for platform dashes and land dashes (jump, before landing air dodge straight across). Sorry if I was a bit redundant on the land dashing.

 

[PaperstSoapCo]

Sorry for the double post in advance.

I was playing a friend of mine yesterday (synikal) and he has also been the most technically talented players I've known. I was discussing pivoting with him and this guy was pivoting tilts like nothing. A-mazing. The ease and 100% consistency he did it at opened my eyes to a new play style that's obtainable through some practice. Not to mention he barely plays so for him to just pivot with ease shows his know how on the tech. If I could get him to drop a line here itll help everyone interested in learning.

An other little tech I've been just goofing around with is ledge hop, dash dance, edge hog. Basically if you ledge hop and DI forward just a little so you're barely landing on the stage you can just press bck and forward real fast and you'll grab the edge again.

 

[FrackinKraken]

I can still seem never get up high enough when trying to ledge dash. I always seem to airdodge into the ledge, with my knees about at ledge level. Any tips on getting up all the way above the ledge before airdodging?

Is there any trick for shield dropping? Just wondering if there's a better way to do it than how in doing it now.

I always think about "slightly out, mostly down" As in, move the control stick slightly away in the direction your facing, and then down (but not all the way to the edge) and that's the point where I find I can shield drop most consistently when I move control stick to it.

Also I seem to prefer dashing then shield dropping, cause you don't have to be as precise as where to move your control stick. It's just dash. shield, then press down and you'll shield drop if your timing is right.

I do understand that the dash shield drop (does it have a name?) isn't as applicable though when you're being pressured in your shield on a ledge, but I do find it easier to do :3

 

[-ACE-]

For ledgedashes, you have to be very close to frame perfect. Throughout all the inputs, I think you can drop a maximum of 2 frames and still make it work. So, between dropping and jumping you can lose 0-2 frames, but if you lose 2 you must DI toward the stage and hit R at the perfect peak of your dj to make it. This means you want to be hitting jump as soon as you drop. And this is most likely where you're losing frames. Can you ledgehop 100% of the time? Try your hardest to do it faster. Even if your finger misses a button lol. Train yourself to be faster because that seems to be what's limiting you. The rest will come with practice.

Shield dropping, you have to find the sweet spot in the partial down input that will make you drop instantly. It's a little different for every controller. I try to sorta rotate, or at least move the joystick sideways some once it's halfway into the down position (or maybe a little more than halfway). Works fairly well...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qQA7vbttZkQ

 

[PaperstSoapCo]

Practice ledge dashes on Hyrule temple. If you miss you can just keep practicing without having to keep respawning.

 

[FrackinKraken]

Can you ledgehop 100% of the time? Try your hardest to do it faster. Even if your finger misses a button lol. Train yourself to be faster because that seems to be what's limiting you. The rest will come with practice.

I can ledgehop roughly 90% of the time. And your assessment is probably pretty accurate. I didn't know that the window for ledgedashing frame-wise was so unforgiving. I seem to just end up ledgehopping, and landing in a shield. This seems to be because I'm not quite getting the jump after the drop quick enough. Thanks for the advice! Will report back with any improvement (or questions!)

Practice ledge dashes on Hyrule temple. If you miss you can just keep practicing without having to keep respawning.

Good idea. Will do!

 

[-ACE-]

If you're landing in shield you're hitting R too late from being nervous. But you might be waiting on the R input because you didn't jump in time and you have to, for all I know. Many people like to use C-stick away to drop from the ledge and eliminate the chance of a fast fall, but imo you have to hit jump so fast it doesn't matter. I use down to drop, and jump immediately as I roll the joystick to forward haduken style. Holding forward helps a little bit. This is a crucial tech so keep practicing. If I had a dollar for every time I practiced ledgedashes back in the day.... Let's just say I'd have a lot of dollars.

 

[PaperstSoapCo]

I use c stick back but only so when I ledge hop I get a strong forward DI. For a regular ledge dash any form of input is fine just gotta get that jump out early. For RLD you need that forward DI to be almost imidiate. But that's two steps ahead.

Don't let executing technicals ruin your fundamental game. If there is a faster effective option use i (i.e. ledge hop ftilt > ledge dash ftilt when the first one is garenteed.

 

[-ACE-]

Yep, RLD was kinda weird for me to learn at first since I'm hitting down, then immediately to forward (usually without losing a frame), then snapping to backwards and hitting R lol. But after a while even the most technical stuff becomes muscle memory. It IS Ganon after all, lol.

 

[PaperstSoapCo]

Yeah muscle memory is a big part. Run offs are a great sub for RLDs. Trick to RLD is when you wd backwards Gannon's second jump (the ball) has to be over the stage itself before you can wd. On stages like brinstar and dk64 the wall on the edge of the stage doesn't exist. Letting you DI forward (jump through the stage) easily ensuring you'll be on the stage in time for a wd. Stages like fod actually make it harder since the lip is higher making the technique need more precision. Battlefield though has a odd edge that gives it slight properties of an edge without a wall. Making no wall edges> battlefield> leveled edges> fod. Yoshis is kind of odd too.

 

[-ACE-]

RLD on YS... Seems like there is either 1 frame or absolutely no room for error on that one. I do not RLD there in tourney lol. Only stage. FoD can bring it on.

 

[PaperstSoapCo]

FoD actually has the tightest frame window.

 

[-ACE-]

I don't believe it!! That slant on YS makes it pretty damn tough. I definitely have the RLD down, I could do it 10+ times in a row without playing in over 6 months just a few weeks ago, FoD just always seems like a piece of cake, YS is the only one I SD on.

 

[PaperstSoapCo]

Actually ace fod is the hardest stage as far as smallest window goes. The angle on yogis is different from the rest. My source is AR.

 

[-ACE-]

Strange, FoD is unbelievably easy for me.

 

[PaperstSoapCo]

Can anyone with AR check at what frame do you double jump after a ledge drop for the infinite invisibility? If I remember correctly there should be like 2-3 frame window for the regrab before the invis wears off.

 

[-ACE-]

I thought you had AR? I think you're right, it's either 2 or 3. I'd want to lean towards 2.

 

[PaperstSoapCo]

I had it years ago. It was all I used to play on at one point so I could just get used to the hitboxes.

 

[FrackinKraken]

Hello all, it's been awhile! My ledgedashing game has improved considerably, I'm now working on getting to the point where I can do it in a tourney match without fear of ending up with a SD. It really ended up being a combination of two things. If I did the doublejump too late, I would wait a longer time to tap R for the dash. This would result in the "air dash into the wall, fall to death" scenario. However, when I got the dj right, I would be so used to waiting a longer time due to the previous failed attempts, that I would press R too late, resulting in the ledgehop to shield. So, not surprisingly, the key is to find that balance!

Now, I wanted to pose another question. I was playing against a friend the other day, and he pointed out I don't seem to ever jump-cancel my grabs on ganon. I turned around and said that at least on ganon, there is no really discernible advantage to jump canceling his grabs. Now, I was kinda speaking out of my ass, because I don't know frame data, but at least as far as I can tell, when you do a dash grab, then a jump canceled dash grab, they look the same! Am I wrong to think this?

 

[PaperstSoapCo]

Jump cancel grabs are the only way youre gonna grab any character you can chain grab with dthrow when they DI behind you.