Official Talk is Cheap - Ryu Match Up Thread

[HoodedAltair]

IMPORTANT*** - THE MU THREAD IS BACK AND HERE TO STAY

MY name is Hooded and welcome to Ryu's Matchup Thread. I have been with Ryu since release and have found and documented the most tech and strategies with him than anyone else. I also place very well in the tri-state region giving me merit to control this thread. Big thanks to Trifroze over on the falcon boards for this MU thread setup. From the system, to the paragraphs below, this is a direct copy of the post but I think the most solid of any MU thread. I will be extremely attentive to this post as this will ideally serve as a one stop shop to see any MU and know how to play, what maps to pick, ie. whenever you run into said character in tournament. Please contribute and enjoy!

I think what we should be doing is discuss every matchup in this topic not on a weekly manner, but in a way that we move onto the next MU as soon or as late as we feel comfortable. No point in setting a strict time window when it could mean we still have things left to cover or that we will be at a solid conclusion in two days and sit doing nothing for five. We should invite the respective character boards to join in on the conversations and archive those convos into this first post along with pros and cons, a matchup summary and a +/-1 type of system, and any posts not related to the subject we're discussing at a particular time should be strictly ignored, but any conversation related to the MU at hand at a given time is welcome, the relevant bits will be picked and compiled eventually.

With the method we'd be using it would be the most beneficial to focus on one character at a time, get it out of the way and move on to the next one instead of glancing over several characters at a time. We should probably start from ones that we have some serious insight on and who are also the most problematic. The top tiers are probably the most important ones to discuss, however that is also precisely why we shouldn't discuss them unless we have players with truly sufficient experience versus said characters. I have quite a lot of experience versus generally all of them so I will always have my writeup for each character as I encourage yours as well.

Summary:

- One character at a time
- Start from biggest threats, but avoid ones we have no decent experience against
- Move on to another character when we feel ready, but try to keep this active
- Invite respective character boards to the conversation in this topic
- Archive said conversations into this post along with pros and cons, a matchup summary and a +/- system

Spoiler: Sheik (0)

Discussion:
Start
End

Summary:
Ryu must respect Sheiks ability to out range him. Her fair, nair, and bair all out range him if spaced right on shield. Ryu can however easily trade with her in the air and rack up damage through this if not combo. Both characters can combo each other with ease. Decent hurtbox sizes and good weights for each other to work with. Utilt locking plays a tremendous key in this MU taking a sheik from 60% to 75% for a shoryuken kill. Ryu loses at far range consistently. Sheiks needles outrange everything he has at a distance. Ryu can do well up close and personal if he invades her area of spaced aerials. His frame 2 tilts and jab 1 are faster than all of sheiks immediate moves making close up scary. Ryu can potentially win the air game if enough pressure and thoughtfulness is applied. This coupled with the fact that if he lands the first kill on sheik in a 2 stock scenio, the game is near entirely in his favor as sheik will have a rough time killing him. The same alternatively goes for shiek since she can play very safe. This MU will come down to which character can land the first kill. Ryu can kill sheik very early with shoryuken but landing the kill can be tricky. Sheik alternatively works much harder for the kill and needs to gimp Ryus mixup recovies or have a good smash read. It should be noted that sheik can punish Ryu's tatsu recovery very hard with bouncing fish if Ryu is left in that situation usually after losing a jump.


Details:
Utilt locking is so ridiculously useful here. Sheik is a fastfaller so by nature she will be true combo'd utilt1 for 5+ hits 50% or above reguardless of SDI. If Ryu can effectively follow the correct utilt lock DI (up and away) by moving forward with sheik, than Ryu can combo her to 78% and finish her wish a TSRK. Below 50% and shiek can SDI down and shield to escape. Combo starters to utilt like sour fair, dair, nair, FA2/3 should all be considered heavily for use.

Sheik is the safest character in the game. The match will be an endless struggle of sheik perfect spacing aerials and mixing up with tilts and grabs. Ryu mustn't get grabbed or he will eat a hefty punish. Ryu needs to control space and pressure sheiks immediate area while being careful as not to get grabbed. If either character lands a hit on the other, they will convert it to a high damage combo, difference being Ryu can kill both earlier and easier from combo. If you can sneak a walk in, you can potentially force sheik to mis space an aerial and punish with utilts.

At 80%, sheik will be SCARED. Use this to your advantage and use a shield break combo or Hftilt. She thinks our grab is trash (which it is) so show her the alternative!

Shakunetsus and Hadokens should be very useful in this MU. Since Sheiks needle range was nerfed, she will be less hesitant to use them at a range where hadoken and shakunetsu can stuff a jump or run in from her. Both of these fireballs should be used to rack up unsuspecting damage and condition sheik to react to it as an option.

Sheik will most likely not kill Ryu until high percents. If Ryu mixes up his off stage recovery than he can return safe. Tatsu is easily punishable by bouncing fish so play more around FADC, hadouken, and shoryuken.

As said in the summary, we can potentially beat sheik in the air. Our fair has incredible range and will trade 15% for 4% if we clash with sheiks aerials. Spaced Bairs will have the same effect as well as being safe on shield. Nair is risky but followup potential is worth the risk occasionally. Sheiks frame data is still much better than us meaning reads will need to be made. Hjab and Hutilt both work well as anti-air for stopping a SH Fairing sheik.

Focus Attack in this MU is most valued when catching a landing sheik. Universally, sheik is conditioned to try to land while throwing out a bair, fair, or nair. Ryu's focus can cover all of this. Use in the air depends on the opponent as some sheiks will use Uair to beat it or just evade the move entirely. FADC still has a various number of uses in this MU and works as a great mixup.

An easy way to cover sheiks ledge vulnerability off of vanish is to run off stage and tatsu into the lip. Hold down while doing so as not to grab the ledge. The move will heavy stage spike sheik and should be untechable

Pros
-Easy utilt locking
-Faster options close range
-Aerials will often trade
-High damage output vs. light character
-Use of Hadokens/Shakunetsu for mid range conditioning
-Sheik has trouble killing except for a few 50/50 setups at high percents or edge guarding

Cons
-Shiek wins far range
-Ryu is easy to combo
-Recovery exploitable
-Besides close range tilts, Ryu's moves are slow and telegraphed
-Winning neutral game requires more reads from Ryu than sheik
-Sheik can beat FA through use of quick moves or Uair

Stages to ban:
-Smashville - Sheik can use the smashville platform to extend and convert combos to kills as well as platform camp and charge needles
-Final Destination - No platforms for Shoryuken platform cancels and sheik has a lot of room to work with

Stages to pick:
Battlefield - Ryu's best stage for many reasons. Platforms ideal for Ryu, close space to keep sheik close range, a lot of off stage space to mixup recovery. High ceiling to live usmash and uair kills from sheik. Minimally effects TSRK
Town and City - One of Ryu's better stages. Good for both but Ryu still has good platforms, a low ceiling, and a tiny but decent amount of room to work with. Low ceiling vs. high ceiling between 2 maps dependent on the sheiks main killing tool

 

[HoodedAltair]

Reserved for potential reasons

 

[HoodedAltair]

This is my synopsis of the shiek MU. Feel free to quote me or add at your discretion. This is also close to general format that will be put in the OP once a thorough amount of data is collected....the conversation will also be archived

Summary:
Ryu's combo and punish game hurts Sheik a lot more than Sheik's hurts you due to higher damage output and more dangerous finishers, however the real danger for Ryu is getting carried offstage since it can lead to gimps which Sheik excels at. DI away from her fair strings and always watch out for Bouncing Fish, Needles and stage spikes when offstage, and always mix up your recovery. Punish Sheik's up b ledgesnap vulnerability with tatsumaki to ledge whenever possible. Sheik's long range game is better due to her needles and her approaches are safer due to her great range and low lag. Her needles even go under haduken making it pretty useless on stage unless you try to trade it. Ryu has an amazing punish game though so capitalizing on any mistake on Shiek's part is vital. Ryu is much slower than Shiek so it can be hard closing space and finding spots to punish. However Sheik's main weakness is her lack of kill power which Ryu excels at while also being much heavier than Sheik, so this evens it out quite a lot. The matchup is considered to be a disadvantage for Ryu, but not unwinnable by any means.

Pros:
+ Higher damage output can put shiek in kill percent with a few good hits
+ Hjab outranges her immediate SH options
+ Ryu's Fair is good for trading against Shiek's fair
+ Shoryuken kills exceptionally early

Cons:
- Offstage is extremely dangerous and Sheik has combos to get us there
- Close range is worse due to Sheik's faster jab and tilts that combo or lead into above combos
- Sheik's mid range isn't bad either due to her high speed and dash attack
- It can be hard to find openings in neutral with Sheik's frame data, range and low landing lag

Stages to ban:
-Final Destination, Duck Hunt: long flat maps for shiek to needle camp

Stages to pick:
-Halberd: Low cieling = early shory kills (watch for shieks uair)
-Smashville: Small map = closing in shiek is easier and forces openings

 

[AdaptiveTrigger]

The one Sheik I played in For Glory mode made effective use of needles against my Ryu. It pretty much nullified my usage of Hadokens.

 

[HoodedAltair]

The one Sheik I played in For Glory mode made effective use of needles against my Ryu. It pretty much nullified my usage of Hadokens.

Yeah I believe we tested that needles go under haduken so seems it nullifies us to take an approach option.....and we don't have any safe ones so it means committing to something unsafe on block or controlling space to get out of needle zoning and into Ryu's burst range.

My sheik friend Walnut believes the same thing and found needles easy to use. Ryu is slow so if that distance is given, there's little to no risk on sheiks side to throw needles out. We want to try to stay mid range in this MU it seems. Far range and we get recked by needles and close range shieks speed with tilts, aerials, grab will destroy us hard. Staying in a good range where we can use shakunetsu as well as control shieks aerial approaches with hjab anti-air or use our own appraoches in the golden range. We refer to this as Ryu's burst range, or the area in which we force our will onto the opponent where they fear all of our immediate options. This is a must in the shiek MU and mid range is that golden distance we need.

 

[AdaptiveTrigger]

Your explanation matches with my thoughts. It puts on a lot of pressure on Ryu since he loses at two ranges, and roughly goes even with Sheik in one range. One mistake can put Ryu in a bad position in this match up.

I think maybe you should add a note about Sheik's needles in the "Cons" section.

 

[HoodedAltair]

Your explanation matches with my thoughts. It puts on a lot of pressure on Ryu since he loses at two ranges, and roughly goes even with Sheik in one range. One mistake can put Ryu in a bad position in this match up.

I think maybe you should add a note about Sheik's needles in the "Cons" section.

Definitely. Like others, shiek can keep Ryu at bay with needles if we let the distance become too great which is why maps like duck hunt seem worse than smashville here. I'll add it in the final cut. What i posted was just my thoughts. Final cut looks similar but it will just be a culmination of everybody's thoughts and what we agree on

 

[PapaJ]

Yeah I believe we tested that needles go under haduken so seems it nullifies us to take an approach option.....and we don't have any safe ones so it means committing to something unsafe on block or controlling space to get out of needle zoning and into Ryu's burst range.

My sheik friend Walnut believes the same thing and found needles easy to use. Ryu is slow so if that distance is given, there's little to no risk on sheiks side to throw needles out. We want to try to stay mid range in this MU it seems. Far range and we get recked by needles and close range shieks speed with tilts, aerials, grab will destroy us hard. Staying in a good range where we can use shakunetsu as well as control shieks aerial approaches with hjab anti-air or use our own appraoches in the golden range. We refer to this as Ryu's burst range, or the area in which we force our will onto the opponent where they fear all of our immediate options. This is a must in the shiek MU and mid range is that golden distance we need.

Ok, one big thing everyone has to realize. Sheiks needles are transcendent. This means that the hitbox of a transcendent attack will never register or collide with a hitbox. It will only ever register a hurtbox, a player for example. This makes our hados somewhat useless unless we time it to hit shiek. Even then we have to make sure the shiek isn't fully charged otherwise we'll just take 7%-11% damage and basically get nowhere.

We might beable to float over needles with a Tatsu but I'll need to test that when I can. This means we're locked out of our projectile and focus attack loses alot of it's effectiveness. If Tatsu is not effective we are left with our T.SRK as our only reliable special move.

This being said our weak Tilts are faster then all of shieks moves, minus her jab but she can't get much out of that. This means we can actually attack faster then shiek. granted it's only by roughly about two frames but hell that helps especially because we can combo into our kill move with it.

Nair and Fair combos are still really effective on shiek but we need to be sure to cross up Nair and Fair once in a while to prevent grab attempts, or make ourselves less punishable. Due to our large hitboxes and long active frames for our aerials we might be able to beat shiek in an air to air match. Although we can rack up damage we still need to land a kill move so that's gonna be our main issue. We cannot let her survive any longer then she should. Mostly because if we need to recover horizontally we are screwed due to Ryus aerial tatsu forcing him to do 3 spins. We can easily get hit by a bouncing fish or hit with a bair, nair or fair.

With all this side we might have the advantage for the fact we can deal alot of damage per hit and he does have some combos. Shiek, however, can Gimp us and combo us pretty easily dealing high damage. It will all be down to who can get the killing move first. Which in that department I feel Ryu might have a slight advantage

 

[Nexin]

A lot of people forget how unsafe Sheik's needles are at close range. Sure, they may be too fast to react to, but if you predict when Sheik is going to throw them and successfully shield them, he is extremely vulnerable.

Generally, whenever I play this matchup, I try to keep the fight within poke range and figure out when my opponent tends to use needles. I don't try to focus as much on Shakunatsu pressure since Sheik is still safely able to use his needles. Once you download your opponent's needle habits, then I feel that this matchup is potentially in Ryu's favor.

 

[PapaJ]

A lot of people forget how unsafe Sheik's needles are at close range. Sure, they may be too fast to react to, but if you predict when Sheik is going to throw them and successfully shield them, he is extremely vulnerable.

Generally, whenever I play this matchup, I try to keep the fight within poke range and figure out when my opponent tends to use needles. I don't try to focus as much on Shakunatsu pressure since Sheik is still safely able to use his needles. Once you download your opponent's needle habits, then I feel that this matchup is potentially in Ryu's favor.

That'd be great...except Shiek is faster then us and a good shiek isn't using needles too close. They can simply reposition themselves and make it safe. You seem to banking on the idea that Needles are the only good thing about her. Keep in mind only 2-3 of Ryu's attacks are faster then sheiks. all of sheiks aerials have excellent frame data on them. While her smash attacks are meh she can still combo us for quite a bit of damage.

Also due to her speed if a shiek is at T.SRK kill percent they will do anything to stay out of it's range. Meaning more needles, more running, more nair and bair poking. Just her speed alone is bad enough for us unless we make the hardest read of our life on her movements.

 

[HoodedAltair]

That'd be great...except Shiek is faster then us and a good shiek isn't using needles too close. They can simply reposition themselves and make it safe. You seem to banking on the idea that Needles are the only good thing about her. Keep in mind only 2-3 of Ryu's attacks are faster then sheiks. all of sheiks aerials have excellent frame data on them. While her smash attacks are meh she can still combo us for quite a bit of damage.

Also due to her speed if a shiek is at T.SRK kill percent they will do anything to stay out of it's range. Meaning more needles, more running, more nair and bair poking. Just her speed alone is bad enough for us unless we make the hardest read of our life on her movements.

Which is why I believe. Staying midrange is best. We have to be in the position to punish as well as make reads. Take needles out of the equation in this range but hadukens are still viable to use....potentially a good anti-air on her SH? I also want to test Hjab and maybe Lftilt as our poke moves against her many hops or SH pokes. I think this in particularly is a MU where FADC will not be very useful since shiek can absolutely dominate us in the air despite the mind games we try to play. Remaining grounded mostly, closing space (no needles for shiek), and punishing any miscalculation on shiek's part with our combos is the way to play it. We want to set a wall up but still be able to aggressively combo her if we get an opening. If either shiek or Ryu loses Ryu, it will result in a lot of damage on the other and in our case, even death. This is why we have to be as safe as our opponent. Not too much over commitment approaching and not too much aerial commitment.

So here's some things I want others thoughts on
-Ryu should stay grounded mostly (ie. we get destroyed in the air due to our terrible aerial mobility and shiek's fast aerials regardless if we FADC or not)
-use moves like Hjab, Lftilt, or SH Shakunetsu as anti-air moves since shiek's like to SH aerial or empty hop a lot

 

[Emblem Lord]

Tell Walnut I look forward to our next bout. I have gotten much stronger since our last match.

I wont comment on this fight just yet. Just wanna say Ryu can u-tilt lock Sheik so any mistake and she either dies or takes a TON of damage. Yes she can SDI but if you pay attention that will not end the combo. Just follow her DI.

 

[HoodedAltair]

Tell Walnut I look forward to our next bout. I have gotten much stronger since our last match.

I wont comment on this fight just yet. Just wanna say Ryu can u-tilt lock Sheik so any mistake and she either dies or takes a TON of damage. Yes she can SDI but if you pay attention that will not end the combo. Just follow her DI.

That's a great point. utilt locking fast fallers is something I overlooked. This is a great option vs shiek and one that can punish her to death for a tiny mistake

I've made a quick unlisted video showing some utilt punishes among other things.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bp_-mIAJH9U&feature=youtu.be
Point is we can capitilize on sheiks mistakes well if we close distance and get our utilt punishes

 

[PapaJ]

Which is why I believe. Staying midrange is best. We have to be in the position to punish as well as make reads. Take needles out of the equation in this range but hadukens are still viable to use....potentially a good anti-air on her SH? I also want to test Hjab and maybe Lftilt as our poke moves against her many hops or SH pokes. I think this in particularly is a MU where FADC will not be very useful since shiek can absolutely dominate us in the air despite the mind games we try to play. Remaining grounded mostly, closing space (no needles for shiek), and punishing any miscalculation on shiek's part with our combos is the way to play it. We want to set a wall up but still be able to aggressively combo her if we get an opening. If either shiek or Ryu loses Ryu, it will result in a lot of damage on the other and in our case, even death. This is why we have to be as safe as our opponent. Not too much over commitment approaching and not too much aerial commitment.

So here's some things I want others thoughts on
-Ryu should stay grounded mostly (ie. we get destroyed in the air due to our terrible aerial mobility and shiek's fast aerials regardless if we FADC or not)
-use moves like Hjab, Lftilt, or SH Shakunetsu as anti-air moves since shiek's like to SH aerial or empty hop a lot

I mean shiek is faster then us and her moves don't have that much commitment. She controls the pace of the game in this MU. We can try and close her off using stage control but given her absurd amount of movement tools that looks like an uphill battle.

Hadokens somewhat long recovery means if she reads us once she can go in with bouncing fish or just jump over it. Her mobility options are plentiful and we must keep this in mind. H jab isn't a bad poke especially when she is recovering from off stage and towards the ledge. Other then that once we use Hjab we are committed to that move for 33 frames just keep that in mind.

FADC is still useful. due to Ryus high air friction we can FADC if we realize we made a bad jump in choice. best case we tank a hit worse case we get hit out of Focus attack.

You are right about closing space since Shiek is either going to have to rack up alot of damage and land a strong move to KO us or gimp us offstage to kill us. On the other hand we can KO reliably earlier.

Also terrible air mobility? his air speed is tied for 12th. It's only his Air friction that makes jump in options riskier.

Im suprised you didn't mention strong U tilt or tatsu as an Anti air. It's really effective especially if you mix up your speeds.

Edit: Im not saying we can't stay mid range im just saying it's going to be alot of work and one misstep means we have to start closing the gap all over again.

 

[HoodedAltair]

I mean shiek is faster then us and her moves don't have that much commitment. She controls the pace of the game in this MU. We can try and close her off using stage control but given her absurd amount of movement tools that looks like an uphill battle.

Hadokens somewhat long recovery means if she reads us once she can go in with bouncing fish or just jump over it. Her mobility options are plentiful and we must keep this in mind. H jab isn't a bad poke especially when she is recovering from off stage and towards the ledge. Other then that once we use Hjab we are committed to that move for 33 frames just keep that in mind.

FADC is still useful. due to Ryus high air friction we can FADC if we realize we made a bad jump in choice. best case we tank a hit worse case we get hit out of Focus attack.

You are right about closing space since Shiek is either going to have to rack up alot of damage and land a strong move to KO us or gimp us offstage to kill us. On the other hand we can KO reliably earlier.

Also terrible air mobility? his air speed is tied for 12th. It's only his Air friction that makes jump in options riskier.

Im suprised you didn't mention strong U tilt or tatsu as an Anti air. It's really effective especially if you mix up your speeds.

Edit: Im not saying we can't stay mid range im just saying it's going to be alot of work and one misstep means we have to start closing the gap all over again.

ehhh strong utilt anti-air sounds decent but a sheik would not let herself get that close....and tatsu sounds like an awful over commitment. I'm talking about when we're grounded and suspect a SH from sheik.

Air friction is what i meant. We can't afford to be in the air much...even with FADC sheik can safely poke it with little risk.

Emblemlord brought up a great point on that utilt1 locking for punishes is pretty optimal whether for racking up damage or comboing into the kill

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

Good God, Ryu does terrible against Duck Hunt. FSmash whiffs over him, Duck Hunt's Fair/Bair outrange everything else he has, his projectiles trade your Hadokens, and his multi-hit attacks make your FADC-Shoryuken useless unless you're really damn good at timing.

 

[HoodedAltair]

Good God, Ryu does terrible against Duck Hunt. FSmash whiffs over him, Duck Hunt's Fair/Bair outrange everything else he has, his projectiles trade your Hadokens, and his multi-hit attacks make your FADC-Shoryuken useless unless you're really damn good at timing.

Sorry but please save MU insights for when we are actually discussing said MU. Input on DH MU will not help now and messes up the archive of the shiek MU conversation. Please stay relevant

 

[Emblem Lord]

Good God, Ryu does terrible against Duck Hunt. FSmash whiffs over him, Duck Hunt's Fair/Bair outrange everything else he has, his projectiles trade your Hadokens, and his multi-hit attacks make your FADC-Shoryuken useless unless you're really damn good at timing.

I feel so opposite of this its not even funny.

Like I'm literally not afraid of anything this character can do. Hadoukens nullify all his stuff free. He cant run away forever. If we trade it favors me. Ryu lives forever. Random smashes will get duck hunt killed and he has no reliable kill set-ups.

And all his long range tools have very punishable recovery time.

Fundamental Ryu craps on this character imo. But lets save that for when the time comes.

 

[HoodedAltair]

I feel so opposite of this its not even funny.

Like I'm literally not afraid of anything this character can do. Hadoukens nullify all his stuff free. He cant run away forever. If we trade it favors me. Ryu lives forever. Random smashes will get duck hunt killed and he has no reliable kill set-ups.

And all his long range tools have very punishable recovery time.

Fundamental Ryu craps on this character imo. But lets save that for when the time comes.

Again. Please disreguard any off topic characters. It makes the archiving of MUs difficult to follow. Please respect this rule

 

[Dsull]

I am by no means a pro player, i consider myself around a 6 on a 10scale with 10 being Mew2King level (best name i could think of off the top of my head, not sure if hes still top dog so you get my idea lol). But i have around 80 games with Ryu and a sickeningly number of them have been against Shiek, with mostly positive results for me.

Its hard to approach her since her rolls are so fast and she has next to no recovery delay*, but a good read leads into a ton of damage from jab combo into Tatsu/Hadoken/Fair chains.
Biggest threat ive noticed is her juggling potential. If she gets me above her i find it really difficult to get back down since her Uair and other moves outreach my Dair or multihit through Focus Punch. In any other situation though, i seem to interrupt any of her combos with ease.

This is coming from a normally DK main, whose absolute worse matchup is Shiek. Transitioning from cringing when i see a Shiek when i play DK to not caring as Ryu is an amazing feeling lol

*Edited

 

[PapaJ]

I am by no means a pro player, i consider myself around a 6 on a 10scale with 10 being Mew2King level (best name i could think of off the top of my head, not sure if hes still top dog so you get my idea lol). But i have around 80 games with Ryu and a sickeningly number of them have been against Shiek, with mostly positive results for me.

Its hard to approach her since her rolls are so fast and she has next to no recovery delay*, but a good read leads into a ton of damage from jab combo into Tatsu/Hadoken/Fair chains.
Biggest threat ive noticed is her juggling potential. If she gets me above her i find it really difficult to get back down since her Uair and other moves outreach my Dair or multihit through Focus Punch. In any other situation though, i seem to interrupt any of her combos with ease.

This is coming from a normally DK main, whose absolute worse matchup is Shiek. Transitioning from cringing when i see a Shiek when i play DK to not caring as Ryu is an amazing feeling lol

*Edited

I'd say ZeRo for 10.

Based on simple damage per hit Ryu comes out on top. Shiek needs to land...what 4-5 Fairs to get 16 damage? We can do that with one fair. Basically all our moves either combo into big damage or deal alot of damage by themselves. Shieks KO power is also a bit on the weaker side she needs to gimp us or land a BF when we are offstage for the Kill, which we can Focus absorb thank god.

We can KO with T.SRK at 78%, no rage no freshness and Ryu's omega stage. Shiek probably isn't killing us until Triple digits at least, barring Gimping.
Because of this all we need to land is ~7 hard hitting moves which include Fair, Dair, Bair, Fsmash, Heavy Jab, Jab combo, Dsmash, Usmash, Strong Utilt, T.Tatsu, and T,srk. After that all we need is one Weak Utilt, Weak Dtilt, or first hit of weak Jab > T.SRK. That's our KO. From there we can try and rack up extra credit so if we do lose a stock we just need maybe 2 more hits and fish for the combo starters.

Of course we need to becareful of Dthrows > Up B or Uair, Up-B raw, Sweetspotted Usmash, Fsmash, Bair stage spikes, Needle pressure and possibly some jank grenade kill/setups

This being said because we can start fishing for the KO earlier we can even out any potential damage differences because we can get the KO earlier. Also since it's has Invul Frames we might be able to do a raw T.srk and get the Kill.

Edit: If you are ever above shiek use Ryu's Focus attack and dash around this will make it much harder for shiek to Uair you. Once you are parallel to shiek you should be able to tank any of her hits as only her Uair is multihit.

 

[HoodedAltair]

I can say with out a doubt that utilt locking is and will be a huge part of MU discussions revolving around fast fallers....so I want to provide a brief synopsis of my understanding of it. If anyone knows more, please elaborate or correct me.

utilt locking a fast faller doesn't start until around 30%. At ealier percents they can DI down and escape by shielding. I think this might be preventable if you use the button to utilt spam them up and off the ground but haven't tested on human yet.

Once you have the locked, you want to tap rhythmically up with your c-stick while lightly holding forward on your directional stick. This is so you can follow they're DI should they choose to go up and away.

You they DI up and in, you'll notice them start to get close to your body....at the right time, you can simply turnaround and utilt lock the other direction

Once you get your opponent to the right percent (usually 75-85%), then go for a jab input shoryuken which true combos from the utilt.

If you take your opponent to the lip of the stage, they will get out.Once you get there, it's best to end the lock with a Hjab which might kill if the percent is right.

I believe the only way to get out of this is if you, yourself mess up the lock. Someone correct me if they know more or different of this. This is what I've gathered from fast faller friendlies with my mate the other day

 

[Sgt-Sol]

Good God, Ryu does terrible against Duck Hunt. FSmash whiffs over him, Duck Hunt's Fair/Bair outrange everything else he has, his projectiles trade your Hadokens, and his multi-hit attacks make your FADC-Shoryuken useless unless you're really damn good at timing.

The Ryu Struggles

 

[Sgt-Sol]

@ HoodedAltair Can you give me some tips on the Pikachu MU .

Cause it seems to be his worst MU for me , cause a good pikachu is always moving and alot of Ryu attacks whiff Pikachu , Nor can ryu keep up with him

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

@ HoodedAltair Can you give me some tips on the Pikachu MU .

Cause it seems to be his worst MU for me , cause a good pikachu is always moving and alot of whiff Pikachu , Nor can ryu keep up with him

That's bad considering I discovered what a terrible matchup Pikachu is for Roy as well.

 

[HoodedAltair]

@ HoodedAltair Can you give me some tips on the Pikachu MU .

Cause it seems to be his worst MU for me , cause a good pikachu is always moving and alot of whiff Pikachu , Nor can ryu keep up with him

Please stay on topic with the matchup at hand; sheik. Other match ups well not.be discussed. If you want personal MU tips either

1.) ask in the Skype chat
2.) private message me on the boards

That's bad considering I discovered what a terrible matchup Pikachu is for Roy as well.

I gave you a warning before Rango so please stop. It can't be tolerated as it messes up the archive

 

[Emblem Lord]

My verdict still out on Sheik. Thus far the only sheiks that beat me are straight up better players then me. A sheik that challenges me that is my equal gets destroyed. I'm still not done hammering out my gameplan vs her in my head.

 

[AdaptiveTrigger]

With Sheik getting a nerf, we should probably experiment and see if anything has changed with this match up.

 

[HoodedAltair]

With Sheik getting a nerf, we should probably experiment and see if anything has changed with this match up.

I haven't heard much except that her needles have less damage at range? Regardless I'll test the MU with my sheik friend next week

 

[meleebrawler]

I haven't heard much except that her needles have less damage at range? Regardless I'll test the MU with my sheik friend next week

Only thing I've heard is a tiny nerf on fair damage. Nothing that significantly changes the matchup.

 

[AdaptiveTrigger]

I haven't heard much except that her needles have less damage at range? Regardless I'll test the MU with my sheik friend next week

I was going off of something I read about Sheik's Fair having 1~2 more landing frames. Apparently that was an unconfirmed change and has since been removed from the list. None of the Sheik changes would have an impact on the match up now, so never mind.

 

[HoodedAltair]

I recently lost to DKWill's sheik in tourney 1-2 and I had many friendly practice matches against Shippo's sheik....Without a doubt, you CANNOT get flustered playing against this character. She hardly does any damage so if you're getting combo'd work on DI and resetting the neutral. Fair is fantastic this MU as it will outright trade and beat sheik's own fair. If sheik mis-spaces anything, make her pay for it with an utilt lock.

This MU boils down to landing clean hits on her, getting out of her combo's, and landing shoryuken once you get her past 72%. Just need a good read which can be easy against a defensive or aggressive sheik. Both will slip up

 

[Gangsta_inc]

In my personal experience I haven't taken much Issue with shiek, I'm not all too fearful of her toolset as previously stated she can be killed rather fast with dragon punch, and a underestimated tatsu will net an early grave for a shiek going way to bold.

I try to stuff bouncing fish on reaction with DP, have a pretty okay sucess rate, but it is better to lead it out of them.

But overall I'd agree, clean hits and a quick kill leave us sitting pretty.

 

[Ridel]

I used to think Shiek was one of Ryu's worst MU's just because she just has the toolkit to counter Ryu. After some observation and experimentation I actually think it's not to bad, but the Ryu player needs to put in a lot of work compared to Shiek which does make the MU frustrating as hell.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Trust me. She needs to be just as on point as Ryu.

I actually lost to my boy Shippo last night at a small local, but one wrong move and she just dies. Ryu can take alot of punishment. On average I was living till 130% or higher. She dies around 80%. His damage also can't be ignored. Shippo hit me about 7 times at the start of one game. I hit him 3 times. I was winning. He can also disrespect her strings with a well timed dragon punch and make her think twice. Her main advantage is needles and edge guarding. On stage during footsies Ryu overall wins, you just gotta react to her choices correctly.

I guess it's write-up time.

Long Range

This is her domain. Needles while they are not scary, do well as a long range disruption tool/poke. They will force an approach, but be smart. SH FADC forward, walk and block and full jump fast fall are nice fairly safe ways to close distance. Don't worry if you eat a needle or two. It's negligible damage and Ryu can easily make that up.

Mid Range

Hadoukens can see work here but its risky. She has tons of options. She can crawl under them. SH Bouncing Fish. Plus the usual powershield, jab, attack them with an aerial. Needles go through them as well. However unless she has full charge on Needles when throw, an input hadouken will win the trade in terms of damage. Same for Shakunetsu of course. This isnt really where you wanna be since her speed can overwhelm you easily and it can be hard to react to. FADC movement and empty jump baits are good to draw her in commit to something unnecessary that you can punish.


Footsies/Boxing Range

This is where you wanna be. Generally this range is between Ryus max d-smash range and his max dash grab range. Here Ryu has good poke options, whiff punishes and dash grab to threaten with. Success here depends on Ryus reactions. Ryus buttons > Sheiks buttons in terms of raw damage and priority. They are about equally fast. She can punish d-smash and u-smash on block so you can't poke with them much. Hard Jab is fairly safe as is max spaced hard utilt cancelled into FADC backdash or light tatsu away. If she SH's Ryu can hard utilt to blow through fair or hard jab. Another option is if you see her sh you can quickly dash and roll behind her. This is just to be tricky but can throw off her rhythm. Empty SH into dash grab is strong for both chars. Be on your guard for that. If you see her jump OUTSIDE of your hard jab range, then it is most likely an empty sh.


Dealing with pressure and traps

Ok so SH fair on block. When not spaced well its a free DP OoS for Ryu. Remember that. Otherwise remember to angle your shield up so she hits your shield sooner and thus gets more disadvantage on block. After you block it, it's a guess. Either keep shielding, spotdodge, roll right, roll left or shield drop and try to hit her if you expect another SH fair. Generally if she spaces well she can just wait. If you read that then shield drop dash grab will beat that. F-tilt on shield is quite safe when spaced well. Same options with blocked fair but she has greater disadvantage so its a bit easier to deal with.

When you are in the air and she is below I find b reverse FADC to be invaluable. However Ryus buttons have great hitboxes so you COULD challenge an Uair with his Dair if you see it. If you whiff though you will be punished so keep that in mind. Air dodge is the universal go to option when in disadvantage, but remember Ryus airdodges are overall the worst in the game so doing a predictable air dodge is free damage for Sheik and its even easier to punish compared to the rest of the cast. When caught in fair strings know that they are NOT real. You can disrespect with an SRK. But if you not feeling bold then focus on SDI away from her and try to regain your footing. Go for the ledge.

When coming back to the stage be as unpredictable as possible. Sometimes come in high and other times come in low. Ryus recovery when he tatsus is exploitable so keep that in mind. Distance wise he can come back from virtually anything, but he is wife open when he tatsus. Coming in low puts him at risk of getting hit by needles and Bouncing Fish. Generally you Want to save your jump, just in case you get hit. When far away trying using FADC first then tatsu is generally the way to go. If you are coming in very high then you can tatsu first and remember if you are in tatsu or just did it and you get hit, you can tatsu again. Very important to surviving when you get interrupted during your recovery.


Punishing

This is key guys. You NEED to punish hard. If you hit a cross up fair then go for ultilt x 2, jab, SRK or utilt x 2, grab pummel and throw. The grab is mainly for positional advantage and b throw will do 12%. This is only if she is below 30ish%. If she is above 30% and you see a punish opportunity or you hit a cross up fair then you need to go for that u-tilt lock combo into jab, SRK for a kill. You will need to get EXTREMELY lucky to get a FA crumple but if you do get one its possible to take her from a low percent to high enough where you can lock. FA crumple, SH Dair, utilt lock will work when she is above 15% or so. If she is lower then that you can still do it but it would need to be a level 3 crumple. If she around 50% or more and you get a crumple then SH Dair to, jab SRK will end it unless she pulls some god level DI and/or input SRK has been staled heavily.

Edgeguarding

Sheik can always come back from pretty much anything. One of the best methods vs her is the tatsu edgeguard. This works if she has to Vanish to grab the ledge. Run off the side of the stage and tatsu towards the ledge while holding down, Ryu will sort of hover right beside the ledge. After you hear the load whirling noise the tatsu makes the second time, let go of down and Ryu will grab the ledge. Ryu has a hitbox on tatsu for those two spins so that audio cue is huge for us making sure we optimize this edgeguard technique. If this hits she may get stage spiked, blown back out, or knocked almost straight up. It depends when and where Ryu hit her with which hitbox as well as he DI.



I will probably post more later and edit this post if I think of anything else. This match is about 6/4 Sheik. Even if you lose you will make her sweat. Its not free for Sheik by any means.

 

[Strong-Arm]

So its been a week. Can we start a new MU discussion? Possibly over Rosaluma, Pikachu, or Luigi?

 

[SapphSabre777]

Hello, guys! The Kirby Boards just recently voted to start discussion on the Wandering Warrior, Ryu! If you could, please give us your input on what the match-up is like, the pros/cons, et cetera, on THIS link right here. Thank you very much, guys. Our thoughts for your Ultra meter going up as the meta goes on!

 

[HoodedAltair]

So its been a week. Can we start a new MU discussion? Possibly over Rosaluma, Pikachu, or Luigi?

Soon, we have had zero sheiks give insight on the MU which is a problem, I'll invite them over again and hopefully they're ready with they're point of view now

 

[HoodedAltair]

http://youtu.be/O5SWUEeGkMg

Here's a good set between me and Cptn (a good sheik). It shows off some nice things and reflects my thoughts earlier on the MU

 

[Emblem Lord]

You made a few questionable choices during footsies in the early game but it seems to me you recognized those errors and cleaned up your play.

I detect...some of MY Ryu in your Ryu. :D

We Megaman now?!!?! We DOWNLOADIN?!?!?!

You got much better from when I last saw you play.

It came down to your strong punishes as I said before. Make those count and get that stock lead. It's extremely vital. You want Sheik input though correct?

@ShippoFoxFire I SUMMON YOU!!!