Synched vs Desynched - a comparison

[Binx]

Synched vs Desynched a Comparison

I was going to write a character guide but then I realized it wouldn’t be as good as already existing guides. I still wanted to post some of the ideas I had that would have gone into my guide. Firstly a comparison of synched vs desynched ice climbers and the advantages that both situations bring. and a chain throwing list.

Section I – Synched ICs and what it brings.

When I first started the game of SSBM before I discovered advanced tactics I played maybe 2 games ever using ICs, my initial reaction is that randomly having nana act on her own was horrible and halved my damage bringing no real advantages of its own. I thought that the trick was to keep them together if at all possible so I could make full use of my damage and recovery.

Later on when I finally started really trying to learn and play ICs I came to the realization that desynching as often as possible was a better course of option because it brought with it ridiculous combos safer single smashes, more unpredictability as well as other advantages.

Though I think I might have been closer to right the first time around. You will see posts reminding people that the ICs are two characters all of the time, but I think that most IC players tend to forget that sometimes it is better to treat them as one character. Being synched has all kinds of advantages such as double the damage of single hits, making you hard to grab, leaving you more ready to use powerful grab combos, and keeping your recovery options more stable. Not to forget when synched you will stun shields 6 frames longer than normal on average and stun on hit for 6 frames longer than average leading to easier grabs. Its also easier to use them when synched leading to fewer mistakes. Nana becomes easier to protect because you know where she will be at all times. Learn when to stay synched it will help your game immensely, learn to pulsedash (wavedash back and run forward) instead of dash dancing or just wavedashing back and forth, this will help you do a dash dance type motion without desynching.

Section 2 – Desyched ICs when and why

Ice climbers are cheap with 2 characters. That’s like giving them another character beyond only one. – Freddy P.

You really do have 2 characters and while you now understand some reasons to keep them together lets look at a few times where it is advantageous to divide and conquer.

• During Grab Combos, this is the number 1 time to desynch. Grab combos of all sorts give you tons of bang for your buck and are relatively easy to pull off.
• When edge guarding, desynched edge guards are fantastic, desynching a charged smash and edge hogging at the same time, alternating smashes incase you misstime your guards are just a few examples.
• When playing against defensive opponents. Against very defensive opponents alternating your attacks can lead you into advantageous situations.

These are just a few good times to desynch but you should treat desyching like any other move in your arsenal, some are safe to spam some are easy to do, some are reliable, some get nana killed, some get you both killed, learn when it is appropriate to desynch and your game will improve much faster. Oh and just a tip its probably a lot less often than you think.

Chain Throws
All information taken from the video Avalanche

Down Throw Chain (can be done by a solo Popo)

Down Throw > Nana Forward Air

Down Throw > Down Air

Down Throw > Down Smash

 

[Genuine]

this is quite good and I will look to it for advice

 

[Kyu Puff]

IMO, while sometimes it isn't worth your while to desynch (most likely in a situation where you'll only have one chance to strike or make contact) it really doesn't bring many disadvantages. If you can desynch perfectly it will almost never weigh you down because of how easy it is to resynch (that is, if you don't Nanapult or something silly like that). If you are smashing with Popo and are being approached via aerial, you can still shield with Nana, and one Popo finishes his smash animation every option will be reopened.

Your recovery options aren't limited except when you've been seperated (which is completely different than being desync'd), and that can happen even when the two Climbers are synchronized. You are just doing different moves at different times, but it isn't as if Nana is leaving your side.

When you want to grab, being able to jab/d-smash before grabbing just adds extra damage and will most likely be easier to land. When you want to smash, although it may not be as strong, having the smash span time indefinitely with little openings definitely sounds like it has perks. Obviously you don't always want to keep a continuous desynch (or even worse, continuously have to desynch) but when you do, I don't see it ever being a burden.

On pulsedashing (never heard it called this before) I love it and use it all the time. Nana absorbs most projectiles just like if you would pivot away, and it makes their movement seem a lot more fluid. Such a good mind technique.

the exceptions being Samus and Puff

I think you're forgetting someone...

 

[Binx]

IMO, while sometimes it isn't worth your while to desynch (most likely in a situation where you'll only have one chance to strike or make contact) it really doesn't bring many disadvantages. If you can desynch perfectly it will almost never weigh you down because of how easy it is to resynch (that is, if you don't Nanapult or something silly like that). If you are smashing with Popo and are being approached via aerial, you can still shield with Nana, and one Popo finishes his smash animation every option will be reopened.

Your recovery options aren't limited except when you've been seperated (which is completely different than being desync'd), and that can happen even when the two Climbers are synchronized. You are just doing different moves at different times, but it isn't as if Nana is leaving your side.

When you want to grab, being able to jab/d-smash before grabbing just adds extra damage and will most likely be easier to land. When you want to smash, although it may not be as strong, having the smash span time indefinitely with little openings definitely sounds like it has perks. Obviously you don't always want to keep a continuous desynch (or even worse, continuously have to desynch) but when you do, I don't see it ever being a burden.

On pulsedashing (never heard it called this before) I love it and use it all the time. Nana absorbs most projectiles just like if you would pivot away, and it makes their movement seem a lot more fluid. Such a good mind technique.



I think you're forgetting someone...

When I am desynched and have to dodge an attack if nana gets hit it takes her a while to synch back up and during that time my damage is halved and my potential combos are limited. There are times to desynch but I think its less than most people who main ICs do it, watch chu or wobbles they rarely desynch. Well Chu desynch a lot versus people he can slaughter but you never see him do it against M2K or PC.

As for forgetting someone his only other counters are Marth and of course Peach, but I had that covered in that part on the top 5 where he is even with 2 (fox and falco) beats 1 (shiek)
and loses to two (marth and peach).

Thank you for the feedback, its well reasoned and I respect your opinion but in my experience desynching should be used less often.

 

[pockyD]

Match Ups
Taken from Phanna Chart

Assuming accuracy of the Phanna chart you can see that ICs go even against two of the top five characters, have the advantage against one, and have a disadvantage against the other two. Also note they go even with or better (in most cases slaughter) all but two other characters in the game, the exceptions being Samus and Puff, both winnable matches.

I honestly have no idea what this has to do with the rest of the post

i can tell you that jigglypuff does NOT **** ICs, especially not more than marth does

On the other hand, i'd say luigi has a clear advantage, falcon is even, and marth is stronger against them than reflected in that chart. young link also doesn't get ***** by ICs as the char tseems to suggest

phanna chart is outdated (wasn't the last update like 8 months ago or something) and wasn't that accurate to begin with (it was supposed to be a work in progress but that stopped) so it shouldn't really be referenced at this point

 

[Binx]

Thanks for the info Pocky, I have to agree with your Marth and Puff statement, I did think that puff was easier than Marth. I didnt know if there was some tactic or something I didnt know or.... Thank you though. Should I just go ahead and remove this bit then?

And the whole post were things I wanted to have somewhere in an IC guide if I made one, but I decided instead to just not write a guide and just write the sections out that would have been actually different.

 

[Binx]

Any other ideas? I would like someone who is good with ICs to set me strait if I am wrong.

EDIT: Whoops DP

 

[Mahjong]

this is great info xD

 

[Binx]

I've been trying to desynch more often to pressure people after grab combo's like while they are recovering or as soon as they get up from a tech or what have you, I find it kind of difficult to keep going and I am pretty convinced that it is usually better to just predict them with both ICs synched to improve damage output. I think desynching is still important, but I am trying to learn the times where it really is more beneficial, I think just doing something unexpected.

 

[Jam Stunna]

I keep my desynced IC as close to me as possible, because Nana has no DI and no ability to defend herself. Desyncing against a skilled opponent is like asking to have Nana killed. I agree that desyncing for grabs/edgeguarding is great, but things like the Nanapault and similar moves should be more for show than actual use in a must-win match. Desynced ICs should always be close enough to each other that you can save Nana if you have to.

Also, it halves your damage, shield stun, and knockback if you're desynced all the time. The ICs main advantage is two for the price of one. That should be obvious, but splitting them up too often completely defeats the point of them as a character. They should be treated as halves to a whole, not separate characters because they really aren't.

 

[N1c2k3]

Yep @ last 2 posts. I'm in agreeance. Desynching's nice in it's place, but it shouldn't be the main focus. Of course there's never a time when you shouldn't practice you're desynchs for when the opportunity arises, but I think it should be about 80% synched/20% desynch. Though, that could completely change based on your style of play, so really numerical values shouldn't be given, but w/e, just throwin that out there. Also, I don't like Phanna's chart at all. Not just the IC matchups (which I think he gives way too much credit to), but overall. This game is way more balanced than that, in terms of overall metagame, IMO. Everyone in the game, even Bowser, shouldn't be getting a 1 against anyone, save maybe Fox. But then again, he's got upB, counters everything! IC's def shouldn't be have a 9 against anyone of those, even Bowser, and ESPECIALLY not a 10 against Pichu. Like, I said, no1 in this game should be up a 10 on anyone. IMO no matchups would be in favor of anyone more than a 6 or 7, save maybe 1 or 2 of them. This isn't Marvel, ppl. Anyways, that's my skinny, I guess. Thoughts?...