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Meta Swordfighter Matchups. Zero Suit Samus

san.

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Fox can beat swordfighter badly, but Fox can get janked so hard by swordfighter's gimmicks. Because of Fox's gravity, swordfighter can dthrow to dair at low percents. Dtilt is somewhat good to throw out vs Fox, but a perfectly timed dash can punish even the tiniest bit of lag. Fox can die to dthrow->uair on stages like town & city and halberd somewhat easily.

Sheik is very difficult since she is so fast on the ground, in the air, and with her attacks. The only thing Swordfighter can do is maximize the reward whenever he does get a hit in. I recommend power thrust since if you're chained offstage, you can quickly use it as a recovery option. If you DI perfectly, you should be living to somewhat high percents. Unfortunately, swordfighter doesn't receive much of a benefit from rage outside of grounded hero's spin which will kill early when hit at the cost of being super punishable. Swordfighter has trouble killing Sheik around the 115-130% area since dthrow combos stop and you can only rely on the stronger attacks. Sheik's gravity makes it so that jab1/2 to hero's spin is unreliable and only jab1/2 to grab is really guaranteed. Swordfighter can punish Sheik's whiffs pretty well if he sees it coming. He can also abuse Sheik's ledge vulnerability with dair, but Sheik can still come back if you can't get the footstool after the dair. Swordfighter has quite a few kill setups from the 70-100 range, and that's the time where you want to set those up with dtilt, grabs, and jab cancels.

Edit: nevermind. I learned that jab scales with the opponent's %, so there may be better followups at high %.
 
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Antonykun

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Fox can beat swordfighter badly, but Fox can get janked so hard by swordfighter's gimmicks. Because of Fox's gravity, swordfighter can dthrow to dair at low percents. Dtilt is somewhat good to throw out vs Fox, but a perfectly timed dash can punish even the tiniest bit of lag. Fox can die to dthrow->uair on stages like town & city and halberd somewhat easily.

Sheik is very difficult since she is so fast on the ground, in the air, and with her attacks. The only thing Swordfighter can do is maximize the reward whenever he does get a hit in. I recommend power thrust since if you're chained offstage, you can quickly use it as a recovery option. If you DI perfectly, you should be living to somewhat high percents. Unfortunately, swordfighter doesn't receive much of a benefit from rage outside of grounded hero's spin which will kill early when hit at the cost of being super punishable. Swordfighter has trouble killing Sheik around the 115-130% area since dthrow combos stop and you can only rely on the stronger attacks. Sheik's gravity makes it so that jab1/2 to hero's spin is unreliable and only jab1/2 to grab is really guaranteed. Swordfighter can punish Sheik's whiffs pretty well if he sees it coming. He can also abuse Sheik's ledge vulnerability with dair, but Sheik can still come back if you can't get the footstool after the dair. Swordfighter has quite a few kill setups from the 70-100 range, and that's the time where you want to set those up with dtilt, grabs, and jab cancels.

Edit: nevermind. I learned that jab scales with the opponent's %, so there may be better followups at high %.
abouit jab cancels did you know swordfighter has two different hitboxes for his first jab: one that pops the opponent into the air and one that makes them slide? It makes jab cancels annoying at times
anyhows since the week is ending, I'm going to begin asking for new characters to discuss
I really want to tackle rosalina as she is a relevant character and her boards will be discussing us in 3 days
 

Antonykun

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All righty i posted everyone's discussions on the OP, time to start a new week with new characters to discuss.
This time around we are doing Rosalina and Luma, Captain Falcon, and Pikachu. Also I will write my points BEFORE summoning the players that way they have at least something to fact check.
 

Mario & Sonic Guy

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Rosalina is now analyzing the Mii Swordfighter at her match-up analysis thread. If you have anything to say about the Rosalina vs. Mii Swordfighter match-up, the Mii Swordfighter will be analyzed until the end of 5/20.
 

Moderate skill

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Hello guys, I haven't really posted here but I do play swordfighter often.

My opinions:
Rosalina: We lose, of course. But it's not all bad because we still have tools that work well against Rosaluma. Ftilt (bair/fair?) is good at knocking luma away, which is much easier than waiting for it to die from damage. Of course, it's still really laggy.
Respect those aerials hardcore or you will die. Up-air is very good at getting janky early kills. If they try to recover onto the stage, you can usually get a hit in. Rosalina has larger attack hitboxes than you for some reason so you have to be careful.

Captain Falcon: I think I don't know how to play this matchup, because it seems really awful. Hopefully one of you has fared better. There are a few offstage gimping shenanigans we can do but onstage it's so miserable you'd think we were Portuguese.

Pikachu: This one is also kinda hairy. Quick attack is a serious move and pikachu can't be escaped. Tornado is good for beating thunder jolt and enjoying a moment of not being comboed. I've had an unusually successful time fsmashing Pikachu near the ledge, but that could just be the other player.
 

Antonykun

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ok time for my analysis
:rosalina:
Luma is what makes this MU dangerous. The star is capable of being in our personal space while also having better frame data is certainly not something we enjoy. I personally believe that they key to victory lies with outspacing luma rather Rosalina, f-tilts and d-tilts should win against Luma with luma being sent flying by an f-tilt followed by a d-tilt. since she's floaty jab-1 jab locks into Hero's Spin/Grab. Up Air will kill at some borderline unreasonable percents against her so make good use of up-tilt set ups. Due to the passive nature of her recovery D-Air into footstool is very effective at dealing damage if not outright gimping the mother of the stars. Its very important to make use of Dash attack due to the moves luma killing properties. All in all take very small victories against Rosalina until you can defeat luma.

Customs to bring
Shuriken of Light- a projectile that can bait Gravitational ull due to its relatively low endlag.
Blurring Blade- Capable of killing Luma
Aerial Assault- Capable of killing Luma while also having a strong recovery.
Stone Scabbard-Frame 4 invincibility move capable of dodging Luma down air
Hero's Spin-Best move in Swordfighter's arsenal
Power Thrust- Burst movement and defeating Luma.

:4falcon:
Falcon is very Similar to Fox in how he wants to get to you. Falcon's mobility is certainly top tier and coupled with his strong (and oddly disjointed) attacks he is very much capable of zone breaking you. His smahes are strong and fast meaning that one mess up can end the entire stock for swordfighter. none theless due to his weight and height Falcon is very susceptible to combos and because of his poor recovery D-air gimps are certainly a proablity if he gets hit by a down smash

Customs to bring
Shuriken of Light as fast projectile against someone who doesn't hhave a projectile
Chakram-Slow Chakram has some rather interesting combos on Falcon

:4pikachu:
Pikachu is annoyingly fast and zone breaker with his fast almost disjointed moves. Expect to get gimped at least once due to swordfighter's unfortunately exploitable recovery. Pikachu's Spacing is certainly strong and his projectiles are disruptive meaning that it can be difficult to land a good hit on him. Jab lock into hero's spin is very effective if you can land it.
 

Antonykun

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Unknownkid

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before anyone gets mad at him
Why will anyone get mad? I find it hilarious. It can be true for all I care. But be warn, Pikachu mains. Quick Attack into a blade is dangerous. Even if that blade was only made to cut and spread butter.
 

GeneralLedge

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Is anyone going to attempt Mii Sword at EVO tho? Trela? No? Anyone?

I mean I can see players who often use the first round to read their opponent trying it, at least. It's doubly perfect since the MU will have zero involvement in this scenario due to the mythical magical universal Mii Sword matchup ignorance(tm).
 

Lanzoma

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Hey guys, Falcon player here.

I know absolutely nothing about Swordfighter. Is anybody interested in playing online (best thing available sadly) to get a feel for the MU?
 

Antonykun

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i would be but I'm afraid I am limited to my 3DS
 

Moderate skill

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Hey guys, Falcon player here.

I know absolutely nothing about Swordfighter. Is anybody interested in playing online (best thing available sadly) to get a feel for the MU?
I can play you on Wii U, unlike Antonykun; I am not very good against Cfalc, also (hopefully) unlike Antonykun. But if you just want to get used to SF's moveset I'll we could hopefully both get used to each other's character.
 
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Antonykun

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I can play you on Wii U, unlike Antonykun; I am not very good against Cfalc, also (hopefully) unlike Antonykun. But if you just want to get used to SF's moveset I'll we could hopefully both get used to each other's character.
In my (theoretical) defense i have yet to play a good captian falcon as Swordfighter.
 

Lanzoma

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I'm up for both things, different players lean for different options so it's better that way :) I have not played on the 3DS in months, but I hope I'll still be able to put up a good fight.

Feel free to add me on skype @ andres.fc so we can arrange these matches!
 

Antonykun

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I'm up for both things, different players lean for different options so it's better that way :) I have not played on the 3DS in months, but I hope I'll still be able to put up a good fight.

Feel free to add me on skype @ andres.fc so we can arrange these matches!
ah sorry I missed my opportunity to respond but life happened so unfortunately my computer can't handle Skype...


updated Pikachu Discussion.
:4pikachu:
As stated earlier, Pikachu is so fast in both mobility and frame data that neutral belongs to him. Therefore, Swordfighter has to really try his hardest to hit Pikachu. Swordfighter can make good use of Pikachu's reliance of his ground game and overall lack of long range normal means that Swordfighter can Wall Pikachu out with jabs, down tilts, and, for the brave, up tilt. It is surprising to see how easy it is for Swordfighter to deal with thunderjolt. Jab can cancel out the projectile with minimal endlag while gale strike utterly destroys it. We have the means to intercept Quick Attack on a read. Up tilt can hit if Pikachu QAs close is to the ground while Up air can hit Pikachu when he's higher up, I would not recommend Upsmash instead of Uptilt due to the moves poor range and speed. Be warned that Pikachu's F-air beats everything we do so bar an up tilt so be very careful. Pivot F-Smash out ranges everything we do and can kil so be wary of that when trying to space ut pikachu

Customs to bring
Gale Strike to destroy Thunderjolts and because he should be hit by SoL very often
Aerial Assault for recovery, you'll need it against a gimp god
Stone Scabbard for the potentially ungimpable recovery
Hero's Spin for jab cancels
Counter to send a message to an overly attak happy Pikachu
Power thrust for an extra kill option

(here's hoping @Soul. sees this I couldn't have done this with out his help)
 

Antonykun

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Hush, I have college and I've been having a bad week:glare:
its cool anyways, I left an analysis from greninja's viewpoint and i urge any Swordfighters to look at it and fact check it
 

Antonykun

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Alrighty the week is over.
this time around I was hoping of pooling with forums who are friends of ours/have knoledgable players about Swordfighter and their main
How does Zelda/Ike/Villager sound?
 

Moderate skill

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Sounds alright.
What do you think of those matchups? I have little experience against Ike and Zelda (as Mii BKF at least).

For villager:
In this matchup I used reversal slash and it seemed to work pretty well. Make sure he doesn't pocket reflected rockets, and if he does please don't get hit.
If you think he will use fair/bair you can use reversal slash, because his two aerials (like mii gunner's fair) are reflectable. The same goes for his dash attack, but I've never succeeded at reflecting it.
If you don't have reversal slash it seems preferable to jump around Lloid rockets instead of being pressured.
Dtilt and utilt are your friends when villager gets in your face. Most of your moveset has high cooldown so villager can actually get in your face and kill you there as well.
Villager's up-B is slow and hitbox-less so he's prone to aerial harassment. Just remember not to SD. If you're hit offstage, watch out!
You should be more careful around the edge
 

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Antonykun

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Sounds alright.
What do you think of those matchups? I have little experience against Ike and Zelda (as Mii BKF at least).

For villager:
In this matchup I used reversal slash and it seemed to work pretty well. Make sure he doesn't pocket reflected rockets, and if he does please don't get hit.
If you think he will use fair/bair you can use reversal slash, because his two aerials (like mii gunner's fair) are reflectable. The same goes for his dash attack, but I've never succeeded at reflecting it.
If you don't have reversal slash it seems preferable to jump around Lloid rockets instead of being pressured.
Dtilt and utilt are your friends when villager gets in your face. Most of your moveset has high cooldown so villager can actually get in your face and kill you there as well.
Villager's up-B is slow and hitbox-less so he's prone to aerial harassment. Just remember not to SD. If you're hit offstage, watch out!
You should be more careful around the edge
I let life get the best of me and not update this thread. allrighty I'll do so before today ends
 

GeneralLedge

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How will we get hit by a bowling ball if we're recovering mid-high with Aerial Assault though? 8^)
 
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Antonykun

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[Just a thing to help me find this at a later time] Villager vs Swordfighter with more thought :4villager::4miisword:
Yeah, a lot of Swordsman's moves seem quite laggy and their projectiles/reflector don't seem that threatening either so... And a counters a counter, be wary of it, but yknow, have gyroids backin you up as usual.
I still think Swordfighter is potential combo food with no real "get-off-me" options or you could go against them defensively and they should have a hard time getting through your walls. Off-stage should be easy too as all the Miis' recoveries seem pretty weak.

I dunno, that footage sounds really awesome and hopefully it gets to youtube or something soon, but it sounds like they fought mostly other characters with no projectiles that they could out-range? (Sonic, Marth, Z-Suit is the hardest to imagine haha) but for right now I'll just say... 60:40? Maybe even 55:45, but I dunno, we definitely have better tools, I just dont know Swordfighter's full potential.
All i could really find on Swordfighter vs Villager anything else can be reexamined here
How will we get hit by a bowling ball if we're recovering mid-high with Aerial Assault though? 8^)
in my experience as Villager recovering high is really difficult for me to punish
 

GeneralLedge

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IMO the matchup is annoying for both players involved. Villager is an annoying character to fight in any MU, but Sword has at least a few tools to mess with Villager without actually making the fight less frustrating, but instead giving Villager a hell of a time actually doing anything, such as killing.

I feel like it's a 50:50 at least, but both sides struggle rather than it being moot. Maybe we can call it 40:40.
 

evmaxy54

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Zelda just shields and punishes the whole match done.
I'm pretty sure that statement goes both ways hun

I personally need more experience with this MU, but BK's Default UpB seem like a really good edgeguarding tool when Zelda is aiming for the ledge (& can kill quite early as well if she doesn't land on the stage)
 
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S.F.L.R_9

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Sorry but I can't really contribute. Even though I've played Phil and Maxy's Swordfighter a few times I feel like if I made an analysis it would go down in flames LOL. All I know is that Swordfighter has to be really careful since his/her moves have some lag so Zelda can punish easily with the elevator.
 

Antonykun

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for the record (and why i wanted to be the one to summon everyone) we have a player finder thread. Go there and have some requests, if they are on the 3ds then I will personally accept.
 

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I can play anyone on request. I don't know how to discuss match ups myself but anything to help.
 

san.

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Vs Ike:

Both want the same things on the ground mostly: Ground launchers such as dtilt and combo throws on the ground. Both get blown up a bit when successfully hit, since neither can defend against the other that well in the air. Ike is susceptible to jab cancel and tilt mixups. Swordfighter cannot directly challenge Ike in the air outside of covering his blind spots with uair.

Swordfighter has the advantage on the ground with superior walking speed and acceleration because dtilt's range is similar. Ike has the advantage in the air with aerial spacing and air->ground and ground->air mixups. Ike's jab can also outspeed and punish swordfighter at close range.

At long range, Ike has trouble punishing gale strike unless the swordfighter player completely screws up. The best punish is to time a roll then punish with a dash grab, but it'll be somewhat difficult with his sluggish rolls. Ike definitely does not want to approach linearly through the air, either.

Dair can only gimp Ike if you can fast fall it into a footstool, otherwise it's a little too weak. It's better off not challenging it too much since his aether deals a lot of damage if you fail.

There will be a lot of exchanging of %, but Ike lives significantly longer due to his weight. There's nothing fundamentally challenging for each player to deal with. Swordfighter has to slightly outplay the Ike for him to keep up due to the weight difference. If it's vs custom Ike, swordfighter will have a tough time dealing with Ike's close combat custom side B and is vulnerable to every eruption custom.

I've only ever fought SF vs Ike, never the other way around just yet, so I can only infer what it's like for the other perspective.
 

Fernosaur

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I've only played against SF like once, and I think I never did it using Villager, so I'm not sure how to answer this... If you guys are up to it I can play some matches and give some insight! I also play Zelda, though not as well as most of the gorls that were summoned here.

But yeah I can try and help.
 

Zylach

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I heard my name. Unfortunately, I have to answer with: I have no experience with this MU. I've played Swordfighter a few times against friends but never on a competitive level. What I experienced was a character with some mildly laggy aerials (Probably on par with Ike?) which means Zelda will want to take advantage of that as much as she can since Swordfighter isn't among the best sword spacers out there (I'm looking at you, Monadoboy). Zelda doesn't do too bad against sword spacers as long as the Zelda player is patient. It's fast rush-downs and hyper-campers that she has trouble with and Swordfighter is neither of those. I'm not sure on Swordfighter's kill potential compared to Zelda but I'm willing to bet Zelda beats SF in this respect since can kill the majority of the cast earlier than they can kill her (excluding heavy-weights). The only recovery moves I've seen on Swordfighter are the clone of Link's and the one that swings up then lands with a helmcleaver. The former is easy to gimp/spike but I'm not sure on the latter.

Lack of experience mixed with optimism tell me that this MU should be :4zelda:55:45:4miisword: but take that with several grains of salt as my lack of experience makes this a mind-numbingly subjective and biased ratio. I also don't know anything about Swordfighter's customs. I've literally never seen some of them.
 
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