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Super Speed and You: How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Bair

Thinkaman

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I previously predicted Palutena was the worst character in the game. Her neutral game seemed worse than Zelda's, and her d-throw combos don't work against people who DI. Auto-Reticule seemed underwhelming but felt mandatory, and her decent aerial options meant nothing if she had no way of getting opponents up there.

Then I discovered Super Speed. Or, more specifically, the things you could do out of it:

JC = Jump Cancel (press jump while grounded, do move before leaving ground)
AC = Air Cancel (press back or B before touching the ground)

Italicized options brake (all others retain momentum)

Attacks
  • Dash Attack (special hitbox wins all clashes, is not interrupted)
  • Tackle-Nair
  • Tackle-Bair (general best punish option)
  • Tackle-Uair (mid-high %s)
  • Tackle-double-Uair (mid %s, requires Lightweight active)
  • Tackle-reverse-DJ-dair (high %s)
  • Tackle-U-smash (mid-high %s, can be DI'd)
  • U-smash
  • JC Auto-Reticule (can be reversed, turnabout, or both ("wavebounce"))
  • JC Jump Glide (to fair)
  • JC Rocket Jump
  • JC Celestial Firework
  • All Aerials
  • AC aerial Auto-Reticule (can be reversed, turnabout, or both ("wavebounce"))
  • AC aerial Rocket Jump
  • AC aerial Celestial Firework
  • AC F-smash
  • AC Reverse F-smash
  • AC U-smash
  • AC Reverse U-smash
  • AC D-smash
  • AC F-tilt
  • AC Reverse f-tilt
  • AC U-tilt
  • AC D-tilt
  • AC Reverse D-tilt
  • AC Jab
  • AC Dash Attack
  • AC Auto-Reticule (can be reversed, turnabout, or both ("wavebounce"))
  • AC Jump Glide (to offensive Fair)
  • AC Rocket Jump
  • AC Celestial Firework
Note that the tackle options are unpunished by all defensive options in the game (including shield) except Counters and maybe rare ultra-fast OoS up-b counters like Dolphin Slash. Dash Attack (and Celestial Firework) beat almost any opposing attack, including melee-range projectiles.

The safe-on-shield-and-dodge tackle attacks are what make this more than just a "really good running state." The only thing she gives up from normal running is reverse f-tilt, which is irrelevant at this speed.

Grabs
  • Dash Grab
  • Shield-Tackle-Pivot Grab
  • JC Explosive Flame (can be reversed, turnabout, or both ("wavebounce"))
  • AC aerial Explosive Flame (can be reversed, turnabout, or both ("wavebounce"))
  • AC Standing Grab (momentum retained after grab)
  • AC Reverse Standing Grab (momentum retained after grab)
  • AC Dash Grab
  • AC Explosive Flame (can be reversed, turnabout, or both ("wavebounce"))
(Explosive Flame is mechanically a ranged grab; it ignores shield and beats dodges, while losing to most direct attacks) Note that Dash Grab does beat Counters if timed/spaced properly. (The tackle hitbox will not activate the Counter before you get in range)

Do note that with Super Speed's impact on her gameplay, taking the superior utility of Explosive Flame over the poor-man's-forced-approach Auto-Reticule feels a lot more reasonable.

Defense
  • Forward Roll (half normal distance)
  • "JC" Air Dodge ("triangle jumps" back into ground, has normal landing lag, loses only extra momentum)
  • JC Warp (any direction)
  • JC Jump Glide (to null Fair or evasion)
  • JC Counter (still jumps)
  • Air Dodge
  • AC aerial Warp
  • AC aerial Jump Glide (to null Fair or evasion)
  • AC aerial Counter (retains vertical momentum)
  • AC Shield
  • AC Spot Dodge
  • AC Forward Roll
  • AC Back Roll
  • AC Warp
  • AC Jump Glide (to null Fair or evasion)
  • AC Counter (converts momentum into a powerslide)

Forward Roll (to grab) also beats Counters, as well as any similar armored/invincible moves the opponent is forced to resort to. JC Counter beats any attack with a high enough hitbox. This might be a good time to remind everyone that Palutena's Counter is probably the strongest reliable counter in the game. (1.4x, 10% minimum)



The bottom line is, Palutena-in-Super-Speed is a fully functional character with all the necessary options. As long as you are mixing up your approach angle to avoid getting stuffed by whatever projectile coverage the matchup has, there's no single move in the game that just flat out always beats Super Speed. (Except maybe Timber Counter, which Palutena can deal with pretty well) You're just this momentary super-character that goes unpunished by defense.

It's also an edge-guarding catalyst like no other. You can suddenly be in your opponent's face off-stage, usually after a throw. You don't get bair, but fair, nair, uair, and dair are all good moves when you can apply them so suddenly and aggressively. Even Rocket Jump suddenly seems interesting in this context, since it comes out fast and (unlike dair) brakes.

It's also a solid recovery aid, since it makes recovering high variable and safe. It's like a Rollout that charges instantly, that you can air-dodge, double jump, aerial, or special out of. (Just beware, it doesn't grab ledges unless you immediately air-skid.)

The downsides? The game won't let you spam it, it doesn't beat projectiles head on, and you give up Reflect Barrier. That's pretty much it.

Now all you have to do is find a way to live without Angelic Missile. Somehow, I think hope will find a way.
 
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KuroganeHammer

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@M is really good with Super Speed as a move, I'd be interested in hearing his thoughts

I need to get better at using this move since I'm gonna be making the switch from Reflect Barrier to Super Speed except for certain matchups.
 

TsuKiyoMe

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I've been saying everything you have for a while now but it's fallen on deaf ears.

Thank you for at least putting it all into one post.

Slightly off topic: I'm still not sold on Explosive Flame just yet though. I've been trying and trying and have not really found a situation where it feels satisfying to land. Yes, it edge guards and yes it's unblockable but what do you get for your time? 4~8% and you can't follow up on it, effectively leaving you at neutral.

Nakat swears by it on his stream when he does play her, and all I see is him getting destroyed for even thinking about using it.
 

Thinkaman

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Slightly off topic: I'm still not sold on Explosive Flame just yet though. I've been trying and trying and have not really found a situation where it feels satisfying to land. Yes, it edge guards and yes it's unblockable but what do you get for your time? 4~8% and you can't follow up on it, effectively leaving you at neutral.
It's not a good move, it's just better than Auto-Reticule.

And while it doesn't lead to any direct followups, Palutena greatly prefers her opponents to be in the air rather than on the ground. It can also kill at very high %s, which is more than Auto-Reticule ever did for her.
 

TsuKiyoMe

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I dunno. I've been using AR to condition people.

Bouncing AR out of Super Speed has gotten me things like a grab before so you can't say it is entirely useless.

The more I argue with people over this move the more I feel like it's comparing apples to oranges. They're two entirely different things with two different purposes and since neither of them are really that good, you can just pick whichever fits your play style.
 
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Thinkaman

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The more I argue with people over this move the more I feel like it's comparing apples to oranges. They're two entirely different things with two different purposes and since neither of them are really that good, you can just pick whichever fits your play style.
HEAVENLY LIGHT OR BUST
 

TsuKiyoMe

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Oh right, I forgot to mention that there's basically two trajectories for Super Speed.

If you start up the move from roughly less than half of FD or closer, the target goes upwards. At more than half stage length or greater, the target goes outwards.

You can pretty much always get NAir on the upwards trajectory. Up Smash & Up Air require the outwards trajectory to hit. BAir seems to always be an option regardless of where you hit, just the timing is different. Rocket Jump is possible off of both.

A Note for those that run Rocket Jump: If you Super Speed into Up Air for a kill, you may die if you don't Rocket Jump within the first few frames of recovering from the Up Air as doing this puts you WAYYY off stage.

Edit: Obviously vectoring is not factored into this but you can get a much better idea of where they're going.
 
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Thinkaman

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The trajectory is always the same, but the damage and knockback varies based on how long you have been running. (0-7%)

You can do a u-smash at low %s if you got a long head start, or something like a nair even at high %s if you started close.
 

TsuKiyoMe

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That's what I was getting at. Distance seems to matter for knockback. Trajectory was not the right word in this case. So thank you for that.
 

M

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I can confidently affirm the hit of Super Speed can combo into a midair Rocket Jump for potential KOs. I will bring footage when I can remember to actually save replays and such for once. >< I'm going to have to look into it a bit more as vectoring and the length of the SS obviously plays a part, and different characters can result in different % where this is viable. BUT, given the right conditions this can easily KO earlier than Up Air.


On and on another note, my go to recovery option has become SS to below the ledge then double jump Nair. Nair being a good enough aerial as it is, but without the hassle of grabbing the ledge at all and Nair will either be safe on the edgeguarder's shield as you have the momentum to bypass them completely, and if it actually hits them.... well, it's all magic from there. :p


http://www.twitch.tv/hiyashaya/b/581505828
There's a meaty amount of me playing Palutena from 30mins onwards. Not necessarily the most serious of play, but I use the SS nair recovery quite a bit there to success, if anyone is unfamiliar with my second point.
 

Thinkaman

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I'm starting to really like Rocket Jump.

You can land it at high %s with an early backwards double jump. You can go for a dair too, but good luck.

Lightweight also opens up some better uair and Rocket Jump links.
 
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meleebrawler

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About not being able to spam it...

There's basically an approximately two second delay before you can re-use
Super Speed, as denoted by a sparkle that appears briefly (it's slightly bigger than
the fast-fall sparkle).
 

deepseadiva

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What is this nonsense about Fire Burst ignoring shields???
 

Thinkaman

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What is this nonsense about Fire Burst ignoring shields???
The last hit seems to be unblockable. This is true on humans.

Edit: They can, however, roll out of it after blocking the first 3 hits.
 
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rpgcaster

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I've been practicing with customs lately. How is everyone dealing with Projectile spammers and campy characters? I am having trouble against characters that have a lot of utility as I can't seem to get close.
 

TsuKiyoMe

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Palutena has a ton of ways to deal with Projectiles.

Palutena's Dash/Shield game is very very strong. Simply start a dash, hold that direction, then hit shield. Using this method you can run up, Shield, drop the shield and keep moving forward to advance through projectile spam until you get close enough to attack.

Dash Attack and Back Air completely nullify projectiles. Don't forget that! You can also straight up jab weak/slow projectiles like Mario's fireball to cancel them out and keep moving forward.

Auto Reticle beats most projectiles cleanly and in some cases punishes. You also have the reflector to reflect things. This is very useful against Lucario and Rosalina as you can score KOs very early against them.

With Customs, Lightweight should give you the speed to close the distance against anyone. Jump Glide is a very strong tool also against certain projectile characters as well. Grounded Jump Glide usually puts you just high enough to go over a projectile, allowing you to get in there with an aerial punish while they're in recovery animation for their projectile.

Lastly Super Speed also works due to it's Dive Kick like nature & the ability to Dash Attack out of it. Jump and use it to come in on them from a 45 degree angle above. The Dash Attack is just extra security to block a move. Not the safest option but you wanted but I figured I'd cover every way in that's not horribly unsafe.
 

rpgcaster

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Palutena has a ton of ways to deal with Projectiles.

Palutena's Dash/Shield game is very very strong. Simply start a dash, hold that direction, then hit shield. Using this method you can run up, Shield, drop the shield and keep moving forward to advance through projectile spam until you get close enough to attack.

Dash Attack and Back Air completely nullify projectiles. Don't forget that! You can also straight up jab weak/slow projectiles like Mario's fireball to cancel them out and keep moving forward.

Auto Reticle beats most projectiles cleanly and in some cases punishes. You also have the reflector to reflect things. This is very useful against Lucario and Rosalina as you can score KOs very early against them.

With Customs, Lightweight should give you the speed to close the distance against anyone. Jump Glide is a very strong tool also against certain projectile characters as well. Grounded Jump Glide usually puts you just high enough to go over a projectile, allowing you to get in there with an aerial punish while they're in recovery animation for their projectile.

Lastly Super Speed also works due to it's Dive Kick like nature & the ability to Dash Attack out of it. Jump and use it to come in on them from a 45 degree angle above. The Dash Attack is just extra security to block a move. Not the safest option but you wanted but I figured I'd cover every way in that's not horribly unsafe.
Yeah, I feel like I need to learn how to Shield Dash properly since a lot of the really good Palutena players seem to be using that over rolling and up right rushing in. I'm actually having trouble using Lightweight. I always overshoot or miscalculate the physics of Palutena when she has it active, and I'm not really sure what a good time to have it up is. Do I aim to have it up all the time or are there times when I should be using them and shouldn't.
 

Thinkaman

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I updated the op with all of the explict air-cancel followups, since it's important to realize that they exist. F-smash, sliding Standing Grab, Explosive Flame, Shield, Spot Dodge, and the crazy powershield Counter are the most important options.
 

Starbound

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I was playing against my friend's Palutena last night as Bowser Jr. and was able to hit through his Super Speed using Koopa Drift's spinning state (Jr's Side Special Custom 2). We were both pretty surprised by this as nothing else I was doing against his Palutena would interrupt Super Speed. We tried it a few times and Jr won the exchange every time. I'm not quite sure why this works but I wanted to let you guys know in case you have an explanation for it. I'll try some testing of my own and see what I can find about it.
 

TsuKiyoMe

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I believe when I was playing Ninjalink he said that certain versions of Bowser Jr.'s Side B have super armor. Feel free to test it. I don't play the character.
 

Green Spiny

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I'm very impressed with the super speed followups. At low-mid percents SS -> Dash Attack and SS -> Bair works, and high percents SS -> Uair appears guaranteed. Usmash is a bit trickier to land, but it's possible. And you can always mix it up with a grab if they predictably shield it... I know you listed more, but I've only tried a few. Very glad I came across this thread.
 

Starbound

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Do you guys have any tips for getting the jump cancel down?

I keep trying to get it but I'm never fast enough.
 

Zero Suit Senpai

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Mmk so I've been agreeing with the general sentiment that this character is not as garbage as people think. But wow this character becomes so legit with super speed. It really gives this character what she was missing -- a versatile offensive option.

The dash hit into bair is an amazing punish. Dash hit into uair is an amazing kill combo. Dash right into grab is an incredible mix-up. Combined with the already good defensive properties on her bair and dash attack, and her godlike jab, super speed really makes her a complete character. If custom tourneys become the norm, I'm excited to see how this character develops with super speed, which I imagine will be a must-have.
 

SullyJay

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I've played a little Palutena, and I decided to try out her customs. I just wanted to know is there a need for Lightweight if I'm running super speed

I am running Explosive Flame, Super-speed, and Lightweight.
 

Apple Jaxx

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I've played a little Palutena, and I decided to try out her customs. I just wanted to know is there a need for Lightweight if I'm running super speed

I am running Explosive Flame, Super-speed, and Lightweight.
Super speed is more for approaches. Light weight is for offstage pressure, grab combos that don't usually work at higher percentages, and just overall mobility. Super speed isn't affected by the increased speed from light so the two don't really compliment or work against each other.
 

meleebrawler

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Super speed is more for approaches. Light weight is for offstage pressure, grab combos that don't usually work at higher percentages, and just overall mobility. Super speed isn't affected by the increased speed from light so the two don't really compliment or work against each other.
Super Speed CAN help cope with the cooldown slowdown
of Lightweight, so there is that... unless you use the indefinite
Lightweight trick (which only works with platforms).
 

Apple Jaxx

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Yeah I was thinking of the indefinite lightweight trick. However super speed has it's own cool down too so you'll have to coordinate the usage of both moves.
 

Thinkaman

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Lightweight and Super Speed help cover the cooldowns of each other. Being in lightweight lets you superspeed deeper off-stage.

Just remember that unlike Monado Jump, Lightweight does not boost Palutena's up-Bs.
 

Super FOG

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After seeing this topic, I started to try Explosive Flame, Super Speed, Celestial Fireworks and Warp.

Warp is one of the best recoveries in the game, and it's also godly for mobility too, especially when Palutena is a huge target.

I liked Autoreticle, It was great to interrupt your opponent's edgeguard attempt and stop him in his tracks when he is far away, problem is, it's very easy to predict and defend, completely uneffective in small characters with projectiles (Olimar, Villager). Explosive Flame is not that better, but it's superior than Autoreticle and that's what matters, has great cover range, excellent edgeguarding move, punish rolling opponents, and it's a move made for racking up damage, something important for a character like Palutena with devastating smash attacks.

I'll start to practice all this Super Speed techniques, so I can't talk much about this, but previously I liked Reflect Barrier a lot, it pushes opponents, helping with spacing.

Celestial Fireworks is, in my opinion, what should be Palutena's actual Up Smash, the reason? Horizontal Range! It's mind boggling to me that the Up Smash has a so goddamn narrow horizontal range, and the worst part is that it only hits one side of the chatacter, I hate miss the up smash so much because the horizontal range is so freaking short as the light pillar she summons, Celestial Fireworks also hits one side but at least has some horizontal range, it doesn't KO at medium percentages but it's great for racking up damage just like the explosive flame. If wasn't for these things, I would stick up with counter, since this game is chockfull of counter-happy characters (f***ing Lucina and Shulk).
 
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