Standardized Equipment Effects

[PHYTO-1]

There exist 3DS tools that allow for modified equipment with 0/0/0 stats.

Now what if --like custom moves, we standardized effects? Allowing certain effects to be equipped for certain characters? Most effects simply change the basic in-game physics (air speed, traction, weight, etc)

For example: We all know Little Mac has a terrible recovery, what if we allowed him to equip "Gluey Edge" / "Double Jump Boost" / "Floaty Jump" / "Pro Glider" ?

We could either buff/nerf characters as we see fit

nerf example: Tired of hoo hah? Give Diddy Low-Jump / Double-Jump Drag / Anchor Jump / Air Pushover etc.



or even have very different metagames like:

Aggressive Smash - less defensive gameplay:
- Shield Degenerator
- Dodgy Dodger
- the third one is up for debate.

Non-Item Centralizing Final Smash - like most 2D Fighters, this acts as a stronger comeback system
- Pity Final Smasher
- Smash Ball Clinger

Super Pity Smash
- Safe Respawner
- Unharmed Attacker
- Unharmed Speed Demon

not to mention you can basically make the idea of 'roles' in 3v3 or 4v4 more fleshed out.
Like Bowser as a tank with:
- No Flinch Smasher
- Meanderer
- Air Defender

http://www.ssbwiki.com/equipment#Known_equipment_effects

What do you guys think? What ideas can you come up with?

 

[Wulfy07]

JUST SAYING, sounds like too much.

Changing character moves to a generally similar move seems borderline, but probably okay. Not too different, at least if I know what customs are used before we start the match. BUT if I had to deal with "oh this tournament is on blah blah physics" I'm basically learning an entirely new game every tournament. I don't think people would wanna deal with that.

 

[BestTeaMaker]

I feel like equipment-based tournaments will be a side-event at best. The issue is that there are so many different combinations in equipment possibilities that trying to learn them all will be too much for competitive players.

 

[Teshie U]

It would be nice to see some nice research into these effects. Some of them do sound favorable for competitive play. I don't have much faith in this catching on, but I think its sad that they came up with all of these modifications and didn't just put them into special smash.

 

[PHYTO-1]

JUST SAYING, sounds like too much.

Changing character moves to a generally similar move seems borderline, but probably okay. Not too different, at least if I know what customs are used before we start the match. BUT if I had to deal with "oh this tournament is on blah blah physics" I'm basically learning an entirely new game every tournament. I don't think people would wanna deal with that.

First of all, why would you attend a tournament with a ruleset youre unfamiliar with. If you are interested in the new set, you would take the time to learn it at home, with your friends , etc.

I feel like equipment-based tournaments will be a side-event at best. The issue is that there are so many different combinations in equipment possibilities that trying to learn them all will be too much for competitive players.

Yes. A side event. Not trying to takeover anything. This is just like pokemon. They have hundreds of Metagames, all with millions of possibilities. If people are interested, they would simply take the time to learn it. There is no rush.

It would be nice to see some nice research into these effects. Some of them do sound favorable for competitive play. I don't have much faith in this catching on, but I think its sad that they came up with all of these modifications and didn't just put them into special smash.

The thing about special smash is that every effect would be on for every character. The equipment allows for certain characters to benefit from certain effects (which is the best part).

 

[Teshie U]

Special smash should have been fitted to be asymetrical this time anyway. We could have created our own events. Like invisible greninja vs giant metal bowser

 

[Teh Sandwich]

Why does everyone want to change the game so bad? It's balanced really well for competitive play as is... Maybe this would be fun with your friends.

 

[W.A.C.]

There exist 3DS tools that allow for modified equipment with 0/0/0 stats.

How can someone such as myself do this?

 

[Pyr]

Of course! Just got a third party tool and maybe void a few warranties... Worth it for a few side events that will never take off, right? =D

 

[W.A.C.]

What's the third party tool that would allow me to create equipment?

 

[Pyr]

Something mythical. A 3DS tool, of course! It's a tool! For the 3DS! That the OP didn't mention at all!

 

[PHYTO-1]

Why does everyone want to change the game so bad? It's balanced really well for competitive play as is... Maybe this would be fun with your friends.

its simply making something new of what we already have. like making up a new game with a chess board. i want to explore this overlooked mechanic in the game and make it fun.

Of course! Just got a third party tool and maybe void a few warranties... Worth it for a few side events that will never take off, right? =D

it doesn't have to be a side event or any kind of event at all. i dont know why everything has to be attached to tournaments. can we not explore and create new ideas just for the heck of it? people have worked together to make standardized itemplay a thing. the thought of it not being side-event worthy did not dissuade them.

Something mythical. A 3DS tool, of course! It's a tool! For the 3DS! That the OP didn't mention at all!

sorry, i wasn't sure if it was allowed to link to something like that specifically.

https://gbatemp.net/threads/deprecated-3ds-sm4sh-equipment-editor.380799/

 

[Pyr]

it doesn't have to be a side event or any kind of event at all. i dont know why everything has to be attached to tournaments. can we not explore and create new ideas just for the heck of it? people have worked together to make standardized itemplay a thing. the thought of it not being side-event worthy did not dissuade them.

Not trying to be a **** here or anything. This is the competitive forums. Thus, it's reasonable to assume that it'd be tied to an event or something that has competitive merits. If that's not the case, there are a few other places that might allow for a better discussion overall. Maybe more development.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

I was under the impression that the Wii U somehow "knew" which equipment was hacked and wouldn't let you use it as an import from the 3ds (to be clear, custom moves are just an unlock, and there's no problem with hacking them in). I don't really see the equipment effects as being anything but negative in the first place (I feel like that critical hit one was just designed to be the most broken thing in the game), but even if that weren't true, I don't think at the moment that this is technically feasible.

 

[PHYTO-1]

Not trying to be a **** here or anything. This is the competitive forums. Thus, it's reasonable to assume that it'd be tied to an event or something that has competitive merits. If that's not the case, there are a few other places that might allow for a better discussion overall. Maybe more development.

So if there is no event planned for it, I am not allowed to discuss it here? Are there any SLHG events? Why are they allowed to discuss it? I literally just came up with this idea on my own and you expect there to be events planned out? Then yes, there will be hundreds of side events.

I was under the impression that the Wii U somehow "knew" which equipment was hacked and wouldn't let you use it as an import from the 3ds (to be clear, custom moves are just an unlock, and there's no problem with hacking them in). I don't really see the equipment effects as being anything but negative in the first place (I feel like that critical hit one was just designed to be the most broken thing in the game), but even if that weren't true, I don't think at the moment that this is technically feasible.

Much like the standardized itemplay ruleset, luck based and overall irregular (meaning effects like vampire, trade-offs, unharmeds-- which introduce mechanics not seen during regular gameplay) effects are banned.

 

[Pyr]

So if there is no event planned for it, I am not allowed to discuss it here? Are there any SLHG events? Why are they allowed to discuss it? I literally just came up with this idea on my own and you expect there to be events planned out? Then yes, there will be hundreds of side events.

You may of came up with the idea independently. It's not a unique one. Just want to get that out of the way right now.

Those threads do something yours doesn't: Attempted to make a competitively viable idea. At first, really, it was more of an exploration for equipment for tournament play. It was appropriate cause the game was new. It's been tested and concluded: tournament-wise, it's unviable. RNG is one of the last things on the list of why something like this can't work. This belongs in general, or in one of the other threads, because the only new thing is a modification (which might be transitional) to stat weights of equipment. Let me break down exactly why:

it doesn't have to be a side event or any kind of event at all.

If there isn't an event, why go through the effort? For local friendlies? Better suited for the already existing threads or General.

i dont know why everything has to be attached to tournaments. can we not explore and create new ideas just for the heck of it?

When you post in the competitive forums, again, it's reasonable to assume that you're trying to find a competitive application for an item in a thread that you post. You can explore whatever you want. Doing it in the right area will advance things a lot better and faster. That's what my last post was about.

people have worked together to make standardized itemplay a thing. the thought of it not being side-event worthy did not dissuade them.

They have. In competitive, though, the thread was gearing towards finding a set that could be used for itemplay. Have you seen that OP's post? The one he submitted with the topic? He put in some WORK. Serious work. All you did was go "let's do this!" and expected people to hop on. Except all that work you're proposing? Nothing new at all. At least 2 threads exist for equipment. Ones much more fleshed out already. Your contribution of maybe eliminating stats is better suited in another area. That's my point. Toy got an idea you can run with. You're kind of ignoring the people already running on the same track.



ALL that said, you posted in competitive. I'm going to treat the topic at hand as such: It's unviable for competitive play. All this post really adds is a way to make the whole Smooth Lander thing a more viable option when making side events.

Again, assuming it allows you to move equipment to a WiiU. If Nintendo did their equipment checking like I think they did, it's probably not going to work at all. Before theorycrafting can be done, you have to make sure the thing you're theorycrafting for actually works.

Unless you want to keep it tied to the 3DS. If that's the case... I've no words.

 

[PHYTO-1]

You may of came up with the idea independently. It's not a unique one. Just want to get that out of the way right now.

OK.

Those threads do something yours doesn't: Attempted to make a competitively viable idea. At first, really, it was more of an exploration for equipment for tournament play. It was appropriate cause the game was new. It's been tested and concluded: tournament-wise, it's unviable. RNG is one of the last things on the list of why something like this can't work. This belongs in general, or in one of the other threads, because the only new thing is a modification (which might be transitional) to stat weights of equipment. Let me break down exactly why:

the point is to include effects while removing any and all aspects of RNG, luck, over-centralization, etc. (like Competitive Pokemon)

If there isn't an event, why go through the effort? For local friendlies? Better suited for the already existing threads or General.
When you post in the competitive forums, again, it's reasonable to assume that you're trying to find a competitive application for an item in a thread that you post. You can explore whatever you want. Doing it in the right area will advance things a lot better and faster. That's what my last post was about.

Competitive =! tournaments only.

At least 2 threads exist for equipment. Ones much more fleshed out already. Your contribution of maybe eliminating stats is better suited in another area. That's my point. Toy got an idea you can run with. You're kind of ignoring the people already running on the same track.

Sorry but aside from the SLHG thread, I couldnt find anything in the competitive forums in the same vein as my topic. My B if there already was one.

Again, assuming it allows you to move equipment to a WiiU. If Nintendo did their equipment checking like I think they did, it's probably not going to work at all. Before theorycrafting can be done, you have to make sure the thing you're theorycrafting for actually works.

It does work on the Wii U. Just modify the stats of the the equipment so that they all add up to 0 (ex: +10 atk / -10 spd badge with a -10 atk / +10 spd boots).


I'm sorry , but is there some sort of rule in which I cannot make posts that dont directly cater to the tournament scene? Competitive metagame exists outside of tournaments. Is this a rule or simply just 'your preference'?


Now, we can just agree to disagree.

I just want to discuss and analyze the use of effects with those interested. Discussion of why a specific effect should or should not be used, and not why we shouldn't use effects at all.

 

[Incomming 336]

Nerfing or buffing a specific character in a specific matter just because they are too strong/weak at it is a bad idea imo. For example little mac's recovery is bad because it's supposed to be bad. It is important that we keep character diversity.

But having a custom effect set that is the same for each character is actually a good idea. If this "trick" really works as you explained it we could easily give every character the smooth landing and the dodgy dodger effect while staying at 0/0/0 stats.

There are a few downsides though... You'll need a 3DS or someone with a 3DS + game to practice at home. And even if it would become the next big thing could we use this at tournaments that are sponsored by nintendo? I mean this is a hack... or not?

 

[PHYTO-1]

Nerfing or buffing a specific character in a specific matter just because they are too strong/weak at it is a bad idea imo. For example little mac's recovery is bad because it's supposed to be bad. It is important that we keep character diversity.

But having a custom effect set that is the same for each character is actually a good idea. If this "trick" really works as you explained it we could easily give every character the smooth landing and the dodgy dodger effect while staying at 0/0/0 stats.

There are a few downsides though... You'll need a 3DS or someone with a 3DS + game to practice at home. And even if it would become the next big thing could we use this at tournaments that are sponsored by nintendo? I mean this is a hack... or not?

Well it voids the warranty. Its not a hack in the truest sense as it is possible to get equipment at 0/0/0 stats. The Wii U hacking scene has also been making huge leaps in progress (see Youtube Channel : MrBean35000VR) so one could only hope.

Well I main Little Mac so I'm a bit biased, but his lack of aerial game is enough to keep him down and his piss poor recovery makes it worse. (neither of his recoveries auto snap, so a dsmash at any% is enough to kill him) but i digress



You mention Smooth Lander + Dodgy Dodger. Are those the only two you would recommend? Do you think there are other effects that would synergize with Smooth Lander

 

[W.A.C.]

Do you think there are other effects that would synergize with Smooth Lander

Pro Glider sounds great and Anchor Jump might be nice.

 

[Incomming 336]

Dodgy Dodger and Smooth Lander are really good because they don't make the game feel different. Nobody would ever say "Oh, I missed that hit because I'm not used to DD/SL.". Anchor Jump and Pro Glider are good too but you'd have to get used to it. I don't want customs to be like PM and change the game completely.

Quick Stopper might be another option but I don't know if that would do anything or if using shield to stop would still be quicker (I dunno, I main Luigi, I'm slippery as hell).

 

[W.A.C.]

Dodgy Dodger and Smooth Lander are really good because they don't make the game feel different.

I've never used Dodgy Doger, but Smooth Lander makes the game feel very different, so I have no idea what you're talking about.

 

[Incomming 336]

For example if you play with anchor jump then some people might actually SD when trying to meteor someone off-stage because they are not used to falling that fast. That is what I mean with a different feeling. SL/DD doesn't change the speed at which the character moves nor does it change the height of jumps or anything like that.

Like I said:

Nobody would ever say "Oh, I missed that hit because I'm not used to DD/SL."