Meta Stage Legality Discussion Thread: Round II

Ulevo · Nov 27, 2015

With Smash Wii U being out for more than a year, and with recent majors utilizing more conservative stage lists, it is time for us to shift our focus of discussion to specific topics regarding stages.

With the previous thread we explored the potential legality of a wider variety of stages. Now that the meta has developed, this thread will serve as the public discussion for the following topics:

• Should Halberd be considered legal for tournament play?
• Should Delfino Plaza be considered legal for tournament play?
• Should Castle Siege be considered legal for tournament play?
• Should Wuhu Island be considered legal for doubles? Possibly singles?
• Assuming five stage strike, should Lylat Cruise or Dreamland 64 be used as the 5th stage?

Important: Provided below are the links to each relevant stage, their research threads, and their blast zone data. Blast zone data for Wuhu Island is currently unavailable.

Stage Research:

Stage | Research

| Battlefield Research

| Final Destination Research

| Smashville Research

| Town & City Research

| Dreamland 64 Research

| Duck Hunt Research

| Delfino Plaza Research

| Lylat Cruise Research

| Halberd Research

| Castle Siege Research

| Wuhu Island Research

Stage Blastzone Data:

| 59 ft | 45 ft | 170 ft | 59 ft | 31 Units

| 55 ft | 45 ft | 164 ft | 49 ft | 34 Units

| 55 ft | 45 ft | 144 ft | 49 ft | 27 Units

| 52 ft | 45 ft | 150 ft | 49 ft | 32 Units

| 55 ft | 59 ft | 170 ft | 59 ft | 30 Units

| 55 ft | 45 ft | 170 ft | 49 ft | 37 Units

| 55 ft | 32 ft | 150 ft | 49 ft | 31 Units

| 55 ft | 39 ft | 144 ft | 49 ft | 27 Units

| 52 ft | 32 ft | 130 ft | 39 ft | 38 Units

| 42 - 52 ft | 32 ft | 144 ft | 39 ft | 38 Units

| 52 ft | L 32 ft | 118 ft | - | -

| 42 ft | 59 ft | 144 ft | L 39 ft, R 42 ft | -

| 49 - 52 ft | 45 ft | 144 ft | 36 ft | 40 Units

| 55 - 62 ft | - | 124 ft | - | -

| 45 - 55 ft | - | 136 ft | - , R 26 ft | -

| 55 - 45 ft | - | 124 ft | - | -

Platform Height Data:

Stage | Side Platforms | Top Platform

| 49 ft | 42 ft

Stage | Side Platforms | Top Platform

| 49 ft | 42 ft

Stage | Moving Platform

| 42 ft

Stage | Side Platforms | Top Platform | Middle Platforms

| 36 ft | 26 ft - 39 ft | 39 ft

Stage | Side Platforms | Top Platform

| 45 ft | 36 ft

| 42 ft | 32 ft | 32 ft | 29 ft | 26 ft | 22 ft

Stage | Platforms

| 42 ft ~

Stage | Platform 1 | Platform 2

| 36 ft | 32 ft

| 45 ft | 39 ft | 42 ft | 52 ft | 32 - 42 ft

Stage | Middle Platform | Upper Platform

| 42 ft | 36 ft

Stage | Middle Platform | Side Platforms

| 32 ft | 42 ft

Stage | Middle Platform | Side Platforms

| 39 ft | 45 - 39 ft

Stage | Left Platform | Right Platform

| 42 ft | 39 ft

| 45 ft | 36 ft | 26 ft | 29 ft | 36 ft - 32 ft

| 36 ft | 26 ft | 16 ft | 13 ft | 22 ft

| 42 ft | 19 ft | 32 ft | 32 ft | 29 ft

Stage | Transition Base | Transition 2 Middle Platform | Transition 2 Side Platforms

| 36 ft | 13 ft | 22 ft

Stage | Transition 3 Middle Platform | Transition 3 Side Platforms | Transition 4 Left Platform | Transition 4 Right Platform

| 19 ft | 26 ft - 22 ft | 26 ft | 22 ft

| 39 ft | 22 ft | 29 ft - 26 ft | 29 ft | 26 ft

| 45 ft | 45 ft | 36 ft | 26 ft | 36 ft | 32 ft

| 42 ft | 32 ft | 22 ft | 32 ft | 29 ft

| 45 ft | 36 ft | 26 ft | 29 ft | 36 ft - 32 ft

| 36 ft | 26 ft | 16 ft | 13 ft | 22 ft

Ulevo · Nov 27, 2015

I will start off my thoughts.

Halberd: Out of the three stages that have been getting the axe lately in certain regions and in majors, I feel Halberd is the worst offender and has no business being considered as tournament legal. Without getting into a very in-depth thought process about it, my stance on it is simple. The hazards are not the issue, the ceiling is. As a Meta Knight main I am well accustomed to how abusive this stage can be. To illustrate exactly how significant the low ceilings on this stage are, Sheik will typically die to Meta Knight's Shuttle Loop on the ground at 109% on Battlefield with optimal DI accounted for. On Halberd's 2nd transformation, Sheik dies at 79%. This difference does not even consider rage, which normally accounts for a 25-35% difference in kill power. This is simply too much. Players will often complain about Delfino Plaza for its infamously low ceilings during transitions, but these instances present counter play. Halberd's conditions are static, and are much more similar to walk offs than traditionally low ceilings. It makes match ups volatile, skewing the risk reward on hit confirms to a degree that does not properly represent player skill, and this becomes even more exacerbated with characters that can utilize this stage's potential, such as Meta Knight and Zero Suit Samus.

Delfino Plaza: I have mixed feelings on this stage. I see the legitimacy behind the complaints players have. Looking at the data for the blast zones, 13 ft with platforms on some transformations is simply too low. However, this only happens for a short duration and presents counterplay in the instances where it can become abusive. I feel that most players who complain about this stage are largely uncomfortable playing on it because they are not cognizant of the transformation patterns, where the blast zones are low, and the important time windows that top players need to be familiar with if they want to succeed here.

Castle Siege: Within a 6 minute match, each transformation will last 45 seconds. This means that the 2nd transformation, the primary concern regarding this stages status, will be present at 5:15, 3:00, and 0:45. In most cases, this transformation will only occur twice a game, comprising 1 minute 30 seconds of the clock. While this may seem like a lot, it does not mean that 1 minutes 20 seconds will involve degenerate play. There is a lot of value provided by this stage in specific match ups that is not present with Halberd or Delfino Plaza. It is one of the only stages to have average sized ceilings with narrow blast zones, and the 1st transformations slopes, 2nd transformations pillars, and 3rd transformations tilts offer projectile protection. Other complaints accompanied with this stage include players dying during the transformations by falling off screen, but this is attributed to stage ignorance, not paying attention to the clock, and lack of awareness rather than instances where the death was unavoidable. I definitely feel this stage deserves to be legal. 7 legal stages is very small with DSR and 1 ban, and the stage list could benefit from having this available.

Wuhu Island: There have been players who feel that Wuhu Island should be considered for legal tournament play in singles. I have most commonly seen Wuhu Island legal in doubles format, but this trend has not carried on to most majors. While I still feel this stage is not legal material for singles format due to the relative stage size, if it were to ever become legal in singles, legalizing it in doubles would be a good place to start.

Lyle Cruise/Dreamland 64: Lylat Cruise is not a common favourite among Smash players due to its tendency to disrupt combos, interfere with projectiles and favor certain recoveries over others thanks to the stage tilts. However, while I think Dreamland is a more tolerable stage, Lylat should be considered as the 5th stage for tournament striking assuming full list striking is not being used. Dreamland, while different than Battlefield due to its lower ceiling, deeper floor, wider platform distribution and wind, presents significant redundancies in the stage list when playing against characters that effectively utilize the tri-platform layout. Playing against character like Zero Suit Samus in this format often affords them the luxury of choosing between Smashville, Final Destination or Town & City game 1 because the opponent is forced to ban Battlefield and Dreamland together.

teluoborg · Nov 28, 2015

just before I make a big post is it the place where we talk about stage selection process (flss/cp) or should I make another thread ?

Ulevo · Nov 28, 2015

teluoborg said:
just before I make a big post is it the place where we talk about stage selection process (flss/cp) or should I make another thread ?

Another.

teluoborg · Nov 28, 2015

Ok.

Halberd : Banned.
Most people will talk about the low ceiling but what baffles me on this stage is that there are 2 hazards that target one of the players completely randomly. Just like tripping in Brawl it may or may not have an influence on the outcome of the game but when it does well the outcome of the match feels frustrating and doesn't reflect which player is the most skilled.

Delfino/Wuhu : depends.
On one hand walkoffs, water, blastzone deformation are all things that can be considered toxic and overcentralizing from a competitive viewpoint.
On the other hand those are the only stages with a pass through platform, something that isn't undesirable competitively speaking.
It all depends on how much weigh the negative points in regard to the positive point, with imo Wuhu's balance being more favorable than Delfino's.

Castle Siege : Banned.
Walkoffs are overcentralizing and only tolerated because they are temporary. A walkoff that is present 33% of the game time is way over the "tolerable" bar in my book. Sure both players can play like it doesn't exist but really there is no reason to not abuse it if you want to win.

Lylat vs Dream Land : no opinion.
I'm one of the people that see the differences between DL and BF and wouldn't play the same matchups on one or the other but I can understand the redundancy and the need for people to have a diverse starter list, so really it can be one or the other.

Ulevo · Nov 28, 2015

teluoborg said:
Ok.

Castle Siege : Banned.
Walkoffs are overcentralizing and only tolerated because they are temporary. A walkoff that is present 33% of the game time is way over the "tolerable" bar in my book. Sure both players can play like it doesn't exist but really there is no reason to not abuse it if you want to win.

Actually players in the lead are much more likely to abuse the flags here to avoid potential walk off deaths. It does not make sense for either player to go near the walk off blast zones because the player with the lead risks losing the lead they have while the player trying to come back risks falling further behind or losing the game. The only time I have ever known for players to use these walk offs is if their opponent makes a grave mistake or if a lesser skilled player knows they need to land a walk off kill in order to win.

LiteralGrill · Nov 28, 2015

I'll take a slightly different approach. Instead of talking about the stages themselves, I'll talk about player politics and how they influence everything.

Which means with Genesis 3 incoming and basically every major using a certain set now, that Delfino, Siege, and Halberd will not be widely legal. Wuhu Island doesn't even stand the SLIGHTEST chance, not even in doubles. If we have five stages it'll likely be Dreamland simply because people don't like Lylat.

Rulesets these days are sadly not very much decided by logic. Instead, people decide them by feeling. This generation of Smashers in Sm4sh do this even moreso. If the top players don't like it, it's NOT gonna be legal.

Ghostbone · Nov 28, 2015

Starter lists are kind of arbitrary anyway and whether you pick Dreamland or Lylat you're still favouring different characters.

Really the 7 stage lists should just be striking from all 7 stages, people are just so used to their 5 stage starter lists and hate change.

Ansou · Nov 28, 2015

SmashCapps said:
I'll take a slightly different approach. Instead of talking about the stages themselves, I'll talk about player politics and how they influence everything.

Which means with Genesis 3 incoming and basically every major using a certain set now, that Delfino, Siege, and Halberd will not be widely legal. Wuhu Island doesn't even stand the SLIGHTEST chance, not even in doubles. If we have five stages it'll likely be Dreamland simply because people don't like Lylat.

Rulesets these days are sadly not very much decided by logic. Instead, people decide them by feeling. This generation of Smashers in Sm4sh do this even moreso. If the top players don't like it, it's NOT gonna be legal.

Sad but true. It's extremely frustrating to try to discuss things like this, because it feels like it really doesn't give any results. Honestly, if the Back Room would publish a ruleset, I would maybe accept it regardless of how it would look simply because I'm pretty tired of discussions leading nowhere. Even still, I don't think we should just stop the public discussions.

Now out of the stages discussed in this thread, I would be completely fine playing on all of them. However, I have always considered Halberd to be borderline okay. I would much rather have Skyloft, Kongo Jungle 64 and Wuhu Island than Halberd. In my own rulesets, I would keep it legal in a 13 stage list, but in a more realistic global ruleset, I have a really hard time seeing this stage as legal.

Delfino Plaza is really being banned just because people are being salty because they were in a bad position at the wrong time and they want to blame it on the stage. I think this stage should be legal in all competitive rulesets.

I'm slightly on the border with Castle Siege as well, because as

teluoborg says, 45 a walkoff lasting for 45 seconds is a bit much. But on the other hand, even if someone would camp for a whole 45 seconds, which is i bit unlikely, enough things should happen in the other transformations for the match to not be decided by walkoffs. Many kills on the walkoff transformation will probably happen at lower % than normally, but it's not really low enough for it to be unfair unless a player has really poor positioning.

Wuhu Island is a very nice stage in which I don't see many flaws at all actually. I would prefer it before all of the other stages discussed in this thread. However, its chance of becoming globally legal is very low solely because people are not used to it and they don't really want more dynamic stages.

ParanoidDrone · Nov 28, 2015

Ulevo said:
• Should Halberd be considered legal for tournament play?
• Should Delfino Plaza be considered legal for tournament play?
• Should Castle Siege be considered legal for tournament play?
• Should Wuhu Island be considered legal for doubles? Possibly singles?
• Assuming five stage strike, should Lylat Cruise or Dreamland 64 be used as the 5th stage?

I'm an unabashed stage liberal so my answer to the first four questions is "yes" in all cases. (EDIT: Although I see the merits in making Wuhu doubles-only so people can get used to it. An interesting idea.)

For the last question, I believe Lylat Cruise is better suited as a starter in a 5-starter list, assuming the other 4 are Battlefield/Final Destination/Smashville/Town & City as seems to be pretty standard by now.

Instead of writing a small essay, I'll simply say that BF/DL, while not so similar as to be considered the same stage (see: Miiverse), are still pretty damn similar and having both on the starter list is biased towards characters that like that particular layout. Lylat is flatter, and now that the ledges don't make you sweetspot or die, I think it's a vastly preferable option to round out the starter list.

(That said, I think the distinction between starters and counterpicks is outdated and only worth considering if you have a fundamentally un-strikable number of legal stages like in Melee, in which case you move exactly enough stages to counterpick status to reach a workable number, no more and no less.)

Illuminose · Nov 28, 2015

dream land and battlefield really don't play that similarly. I mean yea they have the tri platform layout, but the increased platform height, wind, and slightly different platform lengths/spacings make the stages play differently enough. furthermore the blastzones are significantly closer and the ledges favor different characters. lylat as a stage is more polarizing b/c of the tilt and often becomes a burden ban because neither player wants to play it.

I frankly don't really see why flss is worth fighting for. the starter/cp distinction is heavily ingrained and generally liked by the community. there isn't actually a reason to change it, especially because we can do simple, efficient striking with a 5-stage starter list that is common and intuitive (1-2-1 striking).

Chrome Kingfisher · Nov 28, 2015

Not sure if this makes sense or not, but what about making all 6 starters and doing 1-3-1 bans?

Pazx · Nov 29, 2015

Duck Hunt should be added to the OP as a discussion point as certain regions are considering removing it, it's already gone in some places.

IMO the disputed stages from most worthy of being legal to least worthy of being legal go something like this and it's up to TOs to draw the line after a certain number, preferably a number that gives us an odd number to strike from. I would personally draw the line after either Halberd or CS, I 9 stages works out overall much better than 8 stages even without FLSS so the benefits of that is enough for me to want to give CS the nod. Delfino is probably the most "jank" stage on this list and has the highest chance of extremely low percent kills and likely increases variance more than any of the others.

7. Duck Hunt
8. Halberd - two entirely separate Australian regions have decided to BAN Duck Hunt and use Halberd instead as the 7th and final stage.
9. Castle Siege
10. Skyloft - although I think it might possibly be ahead of CS
11. Wuhu Island
12. Delfino Plaza

There's no reason to choose between Lylat and DL64 when you can strike from 7 stages.

teluoborg · Nov 29, 2015

Ulevo said:
Actually players in the lead are much more likely to abuse the flags here to avoid potential walk off deaths. It does not make sense for either player to go near the walk off blast zones because the player with the lead risks losing the lead they have while the player trying to come back risks falling further behind or losing the game. The only time I have ever known for players to use these walk offs is if their opponent makes a grave mistake or if a lesser skilled player knows they need to land a walk off kill in order to win.

Yes if someone is standing near a walkoff the other person is most liekly to stand between the statues or on the highest platforms, thus creating a stalemate. That indeed is the correct way to play this transformation if you want to avoid stupidly high risks.
Now the question is why would a stage that promotes inaction for a third of the game time be considered competitively viable ?

Ansou said:
Delfino Plaza is really being banned just because people are being salty because they were in a bad position at the wrong time and they want to blame it on the stage. I think this stage should be legal in all competitive rulesets.

Let's be real here for a moment : Delfino (and all transforming stages for that matter) drastically change how the game is played. From paying attention to the movement of one or two platforms you have to pay attention to the movement of the whole stage, memorize the stage's traveling pattern and pay attention to the stage's landing and take off timers as well as know extensively the quirks of each transformation. This is a dramatic increase in the amount of stage knowledge required compared to any other viable stage. So yeah people have a legitimate reason to be salty when they get blastzone janked.

Ulevo · Nov 29, 2015

teluoborg said:
Yes if someone is standing near a walkoff the other person is most liekly to stand between the statues or on the highest platforms, thus creating a stalemate. That indeed is the correct way to play this transformation if you want to avoid stupidly high risks.
Now the question is why would a stage that promotes inaction for a third of the game time be considered competitively viable ?

Let's be real here for a moment : Delfino (and all transforming stages for that matter) drastically change how the game is played. From paying attention to the movement of one or two platforms you have to pay attention to the movement of the whole stage, memorize the stage's traveling pattern and pay attention to the stage's landing and take off timers as well as know extensively the quirks of each transformation. This is a dramatic increase in the amount of stage knowledge required compared to any other viable stage. So yeah people have a legitimate reason to be salty when they get blastzone janked.

Regarding Castle Siege, players are not always going to be playing that way on that transformation. Particularly on the first run at 5:15 where both players have not quite secured a lead yet.

"Jank" is not a legitimate argument, or something to be salty about. It's a childrens word. Adults should not be making excuses for why they lose. As a competitive player you should be aware of the specifics of the stages you are playing on. It isn't even like most of this stuff is complicated either.

teluoborg · Nov 29, 2015

They're not always going to be playing that way but it is the optimal way to play on that transformation. It doesn't matter if you have the lead or not, if someone is stand near the edge you take huge risks approaching him while waiting makes the risk go away on its own.

Ulevo said:
"Jank" is not a legitimate argument, or something to be salty about. It's a childrens word. Adults should not be making excuses for why they lose. As a competitive player you should be aware of the specifics of the stages you are playing on. It isn't even like most of this stuff is complicated either.

Well please tell me with a straight face that when you get sent flying on Delfino, survive through good DI and then die because it was the exact moment when the blastzones of the terrain change size the player deserved his death.
"You just had to know the travel pattern of the stage, identify the exact timing of the change and not get sent flying at that exact moment" will be your response I guess.
I agree that people overuse the term jank, but that exact situation is a perfect example.

PS : it's normal to use children vocabulary when playing a children's video game. Adults should not be playing Smash Brothers seriously :yeahboi:

ParanoidDrone · Nov 29, 2015

teluoborg said:
They're not always going to be playing that way but it is the optimal way to play on that transformation. It doesn't matter if you have the lead or not, if someone is stand near the edge you take huge risks approaching him while waiting makes the risk go away on its own.

Well please tell me with a straight face that when you get sent flying on Delfino, survive through good DI and then die because it was the exact moment when the blastzones of the terrain change size the player deserved his death.
"You just had to know the travel pattern of the stage, identify the exact timing of the change and not get sent flying at that exact moment" will be your response I guess.
I agree that people overuse the term jank, but that exact situation is a perfect example.

PS : it's normal to use children vocabulary when playing a children's video game. Adults should not be playing Smash Brothers seriously

*raises hand*

I took a Meta Knight to Delfino as Rosalina, hoping I could use the blast zones to secure some early ceiling kills. It happened to me instead and I had no one but myself to blame. After all, I picked the stage for that exact reason, it would be beyond absurd for me to get upset over it actually happening, even if it happened to me instead of my opponent.

ChefKef · Nov 29, 2015

Going to throw in my hat for a bit, and start off by saying SmashCapps is 100% correct.

First, for a little story. I have a group of 5 friends that play Sm4sh with me, and they consider me to be the best in the group. (Says a lot about their skill, but hey.) However, far too many times when I play with a different character will the #2 in the group, who devotedly watches many top players' YouTube, ridicule me for not using the few moves that ZeRo touched upon in a thoughts video. When you get down to it, the legion of players that need to git gud will look to top players instead of testing something with their own character on their own time. This impressionability of top players will make up the minds of those large amounts of players, which in turn will falsely develop the meta.

But, in hopes to change that, these discussion posts need to have lots of development. So in that case, here is my stance.

Halberd: Halberd should be legal, which would make there a total of 7 stages to pick. Yes, Halberd has stage hazards, but yes, they are easily avoided and used to your advantage. This specifically could give you an edge over other players, while still testing your skill. No debate in my mind. Halberd should be legal.

Delfino: Once again, Delfino should be a counterpick, and tests the players skill, not luck. However, the issue of walk-offs is big. So we need to come to a decision. Walk-offs; Yay or Nay? While they can be avoided, they do cause a lull in play if avoided entirely. That is why I say Delfino should not be legal, due to walk-offs.

Castle Siege: Walk-offs. There has been talking about 'only 33%' of the match. Think about it this way. Instead of 45 consecutive seconds, the 33% was spread out across the entire match. Everything your character did was 33% slower. This would mean instead of Ganondorf's up tilt taking 1.3 seconds to come out, it would take nearly 2 seconds to activate. Also, walk-offs benefit characters like Rosaluma, who have time to recover, and possibly time out. They harm rush down characters such as C. Falc, who cannot do their main playstyle for 45 seconds. Castle Siege should not be legal due to walk-offs.

Wuhu Island: Wuhu Island in total has 6 walk-offs. And due to the seemingly random cycle of transformations, you could get these, spread out over 4 transformations, over and over again. The fact that the platform comes from the bottom could also save a player who would've been dead otherwise. Not to mention the yacht transformation that if a player touches the bottom of that boat, they will instantly die. Even at 0 percent. There is a reason why Mute City isn't legal, Wuhu Island should not be legal.

And I believe that there shouldn't be a 5 stage selection, but if there had to be, Lylat. Greater stage variety, and a stronger counterpick.

Ulevo · Nov 29, 2015

One question I have is why are people willing to opt out of stages like Delfino and Castle Siege exclusively because they have walk offs present during a fraction of the time, when Halberd essentially has a ceiling that mimics a walk off blast zone 100% of the time. You can have an entire debate over the hazards themselves, which I personally am fine with, but the ceiling on that stage is far too low. Most of the characters in the game that are on the upper end of the tier list have excellent vertical kill potential already, and bringing players to Halberd makes killing players at 20-30% a regular occurrence.

PoptartLord · Nov 29, 2015

teluoborg said:
Well please tell me with a straight face that when you get sent flying on Delfino, survive through good DI and then die because it was the exact moment when the blastzones of the terrain change size the player deserved his death.

Okay. When you're playing on Delfino and get sent flying, and you DI optimally, and you die due to a blastzone transition, you deserve the death.

Your perspective is skewed. It's not that you died due to the stage; it's that in the interaction in question your opponent outplayed you and the reward was a KO. It's the same as if the opponent had done a walk-off -> back air -> stage spike for a KO at 30%.

And yes, I have had something very similar happen to me in tournament. Instead of Delfino it was on Gamer. Someone finally let me gentleman there (yay!) for Game 1, but this took place in Game 2 for his counterpick back there. I was at ~120%, he was ~60%, and Mom had jumped in through the window. He stood in the light path, grabbed me, and held me there. We both got hit but only I lost a stock. It was an amazing decision (read: I got outplayed *hard* in that one interaction). My exact response: "Hah! Nice".

Ulevo said:
One question I have is why are people willing to opt out of stages like Delfino and Castle Siege exclusively because they have walk offs present during a fraction of the time, when Halberd essentially has a ceiling that mimics a walk off blast zone 100% of the time.

My guess is that it's because you can camp next to horizontal walk-offs while you can't camp next to the vertical blastzone. And that even allowing the potential for the option of camping sets people off.

-PoptartLord

ParanoidDrone · Nov 29, 2015

ChefKef said:
Wuhu Island: Wuhu Island in total has 6 walk-offs. And due to the seemingly random cycle of transformations, you could get these, spread out over 4 transformations, over and over again. The fact that the platform comes from the bottom could also save a player who would've been dead otherwise. Not to mention the yacht transformation that if a player touches the bottom of that boat, they will instantly die. Even at 0 percent. There is a reason why Mute City isn't legal, Wuhu Island should not be legal.

Wuhu follows a pattern in which locations you stop at. The second in each cycle of 4, in particular, is never a walkoff although all options there do have water. For the remaining 3 stops, the odds of each one having a walkoff is 25%. (The last one will always have a walkoff, the first and third are 50/50.)

If you're interested in more numbers...

Delfino Plaza:
9 possible transformations
4 with a walkoff
5 with water
2 with completely solid ground
1 with none of the above

Skyloft:
11 total transformations
5 with a walkoff
0 with water
3 with completely solid ground
6 with none of the above

Wuhu Island:
9 total transformations
4 with a walkoff
3 with water
2 with completely solid ground
2 with none of the above

Interpret these as you will. Note that a transformation can fit into more than one category, which is why the sums add up to more than the total. Also, these do not include the flying platforms that carry players around.

Pazx · Nov 30, 2015

Despite all of the evidence to the contrary, the Smash community at large has decided that Skyloft is the worst of the 3 travelling stages. Heavy days.

teluoborg · Dec 1, 2015

Yeah just because the terrain has hitboxes everywhere placed in such an unconsistent way that you need a 10 minutes video to show every place that is and isn't safe, all the while demonstrating that there is no logic to what can and can't hit you and when platforms do and do not spawn, people deem this stage to be the least competitive of the 3.

HOW DARE THEY

PS : it's baffling how few people defending the viability of their precious stage actually do research on it. Probably because actual objective documentation always results in showing why the stage should be banned.

Dastardly Ridleylash · Dec 1, 2015

I never liked Delfino as a competetive stage, even in Project M. Honestly, it's just not that enjoyable considering that it has pretty much all of the traditionally insta-ban stage issues except for a stage boss; walkoffs, wonky blastzones and water. It's not as bad as some other Smash 4 stages, yes, but that doesn't make it viable.

Saying Delfino is competetively viable is honestly like saying that Pyrosphere is competetively viable; it's just not, no matter how we try to prove it. The stage gimmicks are too disruptive for it to be viable in any capacity (though Omega Pyrosphere could be a good counter-pick stage, IMO).

ParanoidDrone · Dec 1, 2015

Dastardly Ridleylash said:
Saying Delfino is competetively viable is honestly like saying that Pyrosphere is competetively viable; it's just not, no matter how we try to prove it. The stage gimmicks are too disruptive for it to be viable in any capacity (though Omega Pyrosphere could be a good counter-pick stage, IMO).

Omega anything is FD with a coat of paint, so that's not saying much.

Dastardly Ridleylash · Dec 1, 2015

ParanoidDrone said:
Omega anything is FD with a coat of paint, so that's not saying much.

Not exactly, actually; Omega stages have distinct shapes to the undersides of the stage, which means they're not identical to FD.

ParanoidDrone · Dec 1, 2015

Dastardly Ridleylash said:
Not exactly, actually; Omega stages have distinct shapes to the undersides of the stage, which means they're not identical to FD.

Technically true but I'd wager that's a far (far) lesser impact on the match than the flatness. It's barely on my radar unless I'm fighting Villager.

Jterr · Dec 1, 2015

I wish Skyloft was a competitive stage (idk if it is, I've never seen it in tournament) I find that Delfino, Castle Siege, and Skyloft are interesting stages to mix up the stage choice. I can understand why people are opposed to them, because of water, walkouts, and the transitions. They're both good for competitive and just for fun IMO.

TheHypnotoad · Dec 2, 2015

I'm on mobile right now, so I won't mention everything right now. I might come back and edit more later if I'm not lazy.

Halberd: I hate this stage with a fiery passion. The ridiculously low ceiling means that whoever wins the neutral first will probably end up taking the stock. ZSS, Meta Knight, R.O.B., and probably Rosalina, among others, can easily 0 to death with practically no effort. The hazards are stupid and overcentralizing. The claw forces you to stop whatever you were doing and put up your shield. Say good bye to the nice combo you had going. The laser overcentralizes the game around getting a grab and throwing the opponent into it. The bomb forces you to run to the opposite side of the stage from your opponent. And let's not forget that the ledges are the same as pre-patch Lylat Cruise. If I had a nickel for every time I got stuck underneath the ledge on Halberd, I would be a rich man. I hate this stage, I'm glad it's gone, and I hope it never comes back.

Jterr · Dec 2, 2015

TheHypnotoad said:
I'm on mobile right now, so I won't mention everything right now. I might come back and edit more later if I'm not lazy.

Halberd: I hate this stage with a fiery passion. The ridiculously low ceiling means that whoever wins the neutral first will probably end up taking the stock. ZSS, Meta Knight, R.O.B., and probably Rosalina, among others, can easily 0 to death with practically no effort. The hazards are stupid and overcentralizing. The claw forces you to stop whatever you were doing and put up your shield. Say good bye to the nice combo you had going. The laser overcentralizes the game around getting a grab and throwing the opponent into it. The bomb forces you to run to the opposite side of the stage from your opponent. And let's not forget that the ledges are the same as pre-patch Lylat Cruise. If I had a nickel for every time I got stuck underneath the ledge on Halberd, I would be a rich man. I hate this stage, I'm glad it's gone, and I hope it never comes back.

Delfino and Halberd were broken for Pre patch Diddy Kong

Sonicninja115 · Dec 2, 2015

What about DH? I thought it wasn't being allowed that often anymore...

RIP|Merrick · Dec 3, 2015

What's all this recent stuff I've been hearing about some tournaments omitting Duck Hunt? That...there's no way that's actually a thing happening, right...?

ParanoidDrone · Dec 3, 2015

RIP|Merrick said:
What's all this recent stuff I've been hearing about some tournaments omitting Duck Hunt? That...there's no way that's actually a thing happening, right...?

I think it's just isolated instances. I make fun of my own scene a lot these days for dropping it from that one tournament I went to a couple of weeks ago, but I wouldn't honestly expect that to be the norm.

Ghostbone · Dec 4, 2015

Australia is probably banning duck hunt cos people here are dumb

Shouxiao · Dec 4, 2015

Ghostbone said:
Australia is probably banning duck hunt cos people here are dumb

Why would Duck Hunt be banned? I see nothing wrong with it. Usually a counterpick.

ParanoidDrone · Dec 5, 2015

Shouxiao said:
Why would Duck Hunt be banned? I see nothing wrong with it. Usually a counterpick.

Ghostbone said:
Australia is probably banning duck hunt cos people here are dumb

There's your answer. But less snarkily, I think it's for the tree and how the dog can pop up under you. IMO neither are worth banning the stage (the tree is character matchup dependent, i.e. Little Mac vs. anyone, and the dog is predictable).

Wintropy · Dec 5, 2015

ParanoidDrone said:
There's your answer. But less snarkily, I think it's for the tree and how the dog can pop up under you. IMO neither are worth banning the stage (the tree is character matchup dependent, i.e. Little Mac vs. anyone, and the dog is predictable).

I mean, you can outright determine where and when you want the dog to come up, right? He pops up from the nearest spot to a fallen duck to retrieve it, and if no ducks have been shot that round, he comes up directly in the middle when the round is finished (for about twice as long as he does if he's retrieving the duck).

The tree is the bigger issue if you ask me, but it is, as you say, totally matchup dependent. You don't want to get camped out when you're playing Mac / Ganondorf / Doc, ban the stage. Or don't play Mac / Ganondorf / Doc. I don't think a stage should be banned for the sake of a few stray individuals that may or may not even be affected by a tree.

ParanoidDrone · Dec 5, 2015

Wintropy said:
I mean, you can outright determine where and when you want the dog to come up, right? He pops up from the nearest spot to a fallen duck to retrieve it, and if no ducks have been shot that round, he comes up directly in the middle when the round is finished (for about twice as long as he does if he's retrieving the duck).

The tree is the bigger issue if you ask me, but it is, as you say, totally matchup dependent. You don't want to get camped out when you're playing Mac / Ganondorf / Doc, ban the stage. Or don't play Mac / Ganondorf / Doc. I don't think a stage should be banned for the sake of a few stray individuals that may or may not even be affected by a tree.

Correct on all counts. And even then, you can take advantage of the dog to reach the tree as Mac/Doc/Ganondorf. There's a video out there of a Little Mac doing exactly that to nail the guy on the tree with KO Punch.

epicnights · Dec 5, 2015

According to Solreth, Little Mac can actually short hop to the lowest branch of the tree with the help of the dog. He said so on the Smash United stream.

SherrdreamZ · Dec 5, 2015

I Think (Halberd) should be banned overall due to an obscenely low ceiling that primarily already benefits the Higher Tiers, and the addition of the claw and lasers RNG do not help it's case.

Ive see the complaints about (Delfino Plaza) but i see the stage as an overall balanced transforming stage with little to discredit it's viability barring the argument of walk off blast Zones and Transformation Features.

Actually after looking back i agree completely with

Ulevo on every point in contention, so further elaboration actually seems like a moot effort.

Meta Stage Legality Discussion Thread: Round II

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