Meta SSB4 Falco Matchup Discussion 48 - Mewtwo - Steel Wing vs. Shadow Claw

[Ffamran]

Welcome to the Mewtwo matchup discussion.

All credit goes to Quas-quas for the original images.​

Here's a link to the main post: SSB4 Falco Matchup Discussion - Main Post. This will be more for general matchup discussions like making a suggestion and such. Or, you could head over to the social thread and ask there: Where We Prefer The Air And The Points Don't Matter!. Or PM me if you really have to, but don't make a habit out of it.

Oh, and if you guys and girls want to play each other to have fun or learn about the MU, check out the NNID and FC sharing thread on the Falco boards: http://smashboards.com/threads/anyone-want-to-exchange-nnids-or-friend-codes.386513/.

There's also the regular NNID and FC sharing threads in the Online discussion if you just want to ask anyone to play.

Notice: Some rules, guidelines, and tips. Some of these are a given since you joined any forum.

1. Be respectful of each other. No insults, no trolling, no flaming, or any of that nonsense.
2. Be aware that some of the discussions can and will be old, so don't call out someone for "wrong" data if that post was referring to say, patch 1.0.3 stuff.
3. Be impartial; learn to see things from other sides. So, don't boast about all the advantages. Notice weaknesses and strengths from both parties.
4. Stay on topic.
5. Have fun.

And here is a frame speed ranking of their regular attacks and grabs - no Specials yet, sorry - to clear up on things since sometimes a move may feel slow, but it's actually fast and vice versa. Plus more information doesn't always hurt. Data from Mewtwo's Frame Data by @Aerodrome and the Complete Hitbox/Frame Data For Every Character thread.

As of patch 1.1.4.

Move Hit Frames||
Jab|2-4, 10-12, 17-21, 22-26, 27-31, 32-36, (infinite), 41-42|6-6, (infinite), (finisher)
Dash Attack|8-11 or 12-19|10-11 or 12-20
Ftilt|6-8|10-11
Utilt|5-9, 12-16|8-8 or 9-13
Dtilt|7-9|6-7
Side Smash|17-19 or 20-20|19-21
Up Smash|7-12, 13-20|9-9, 14-15, 18-19, 22-23, 26-27, 30-31, 34-35
Down Smash|7-9|21-22
Nair|3-5, 6-9, 14-17, 21-24|7-8, 11-12, 15-16, 19-20, 23-24, 27-28, 31-32, 35-36, 39-40
Fair|10-13, 14-17, 18-21, 22-25, 26-27, 28-29|6-8
Bair|4-5 or 6-12|13-17
Uair|7-11|10-14
Dair|16-19 or 20-30|15-18
Grab|8-9|7-8
Dash Grab|10-11|9-10
Pivot Grab|11-12|10-11

 

[RayNoire]

Hi birds!

So, Falco's fall speed is too damn high. This is a problem for Mewtwo because a lot of the combos we rely on for damage and stage position don't work at the percents we need them to. We also lose kill confirms out of jab. Fun!

This is one of the reasons why our Fox matchup resides in the deepest level of hell. Having a move that normally is good for 25+% (jab, Utilt, sourspot Dtilt) instead do 4% kind of sucks a lot. But at least you guys don't have top-tier mobility and a f***ing infinite.

As a Mewtwo main, I wouldn't be offended if you guys put this match in your favor, but it's probably pretty close to even. I think we win neutral even if our advantage state is messed up. Your reflector is pretty laggy, so we might be able to punish it at long-ish range if you try to reflect Shadow Ball. You also can't gimp us well, which I've heard Falco likes to do. You can't catch our landings super-easily either.

Also, cats eat birds.

 

[Ffamran]

Falco's fall speed isn't that high. Fox's is 2.05, Triple D's 1.95, Greninja's 1.85, Captain Falcon's 1.837, and Falco, Mega Man, Little Mac, and Roy all share a fall speed of 1.8 - also Brawl Wolf's fall speed, but I hope they give him 1.9 just to make it so 5 characters don't share the same damned fall speed. Source: http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/FallSpeed.

I don't think this would be even since Mewtwo does move faster than Falco on the ground and in the air not to mention Mewtwo's air dodge having more I-frames or something that I don't remember. There's also the fact Mewtwo hits freaking hard and outranges Falco. Then again, Mewtwo's one big and light - really, why? Roy got heavier, so why can't Mewtwo just stay the same weight as Melee Mewtwo and Melee Roy? - which Falco loves to abuse.

Edgeguarding's something I don't really know since there aren't a lot of Mewtwo or Falco players out there. That said, the patch made it so Falco's Nair connects better which means he can edgeguard with it along with comboing and confirming stuff, Fair being faster and hitting faster also helps, and there's the usual of we'll just kill people with our stupid Bair or spike you since Mewtwo's kind of big and his ledge interaction's weird. Doesn't Mewtwo's head stick out or something when he catches the ledge?

Cats are about as big as pheasants... I think.

 

[RayNoire]

Must be some other factor in conjunction with fall speed (Height?) because I know we struggle really hard to combo Fox and Falco and to some extent Cap'n but the others there are mostly fine.

Mewtwo's not going to hit you too hard in this matchup for that reason. You probably will struggle to get in on him though.

If Mewtwo teleports to the ledge, he should be mostly safe. Then again, his hurtbox is absurdly big, probably the biggest (it goes well past his body; I have a ridiculous pic from a replay but I don't know how to post pics) so the ledge game sucks because you can often cover one option and inadvertently catch them all.

We miiiiight be able to trap your landing with Usmash, but I doubt it. Just airdodge right into the ground and the hitbox is so high you'll probably be safe.

 

[Ffamran]

Must be some other factor in conjunction with fall speed (Height?) because I know we struggle really hard to combo Fox and Falco and to some extent Cap'n but the others there are mostly fine.

Mewtwo's not going to hit you too hard in this matchup for that reason. You probably will struggle to get in on him though.

If Mewtwo teleports to the ledge, he should be mostly safe. Then again, his hurtbox is absurdly big, probably the biggest (it goes well past his body; I have a ridiculous pic from a replay but I don't know how to post pics) so the ledge game sucks because you can often cover one option and inadvertently catch them all.

We miiiiight be able to trap your landing with Usmash, but I doubt it. Just airdodge right into the ground and the hitbox is so high you'll probably be safe.

Well, Fox and Falco have below average air speed; Fox barely does, but Falco's on the low spectrum since the developers decided that Fox and Falco shouldn't share air speeds anymore and that the fast one should have better air speed. Fox and Falco are also thin which might explain why since ZSS and Sheik often get away with weird things since they're so skinny. Captain Falcon on the other hand has really good air speed, so he's probably drifting out more easily than Fox and Falco.

Mewtwo's big, but not as big as Bowser or DK or Charizard? For Up Smash, pretty much anything can intercept Falco Phantasm and probably Fire Bird if you can time it. If Falco's recovering high and sees or feels like Mewtwo is going to use an Up Smash, Falco can just go over it or attempt to challenge it by aiming towards Mewtwo, but away from the hitbox. It might just be better to force Falco to recover low or parallel to the stage and Down Smash him.

 

[RayNoire]

Funny thing about Dsmash, it actually doesn't hit on the ledge. At all.

*weeps softly*

 

[Ffamran]

I mean off the stage. Can't Mewtwo's Down Smash reach over the ledge?

 

[RayNoire]

Nope. Not even a little.

The hitbox is very bizarre. It's kind of a theme with Mewtwo. Honestly, if all his moves hit like their animations say they should and his he got hit only when something actually made contact with his body, he'd be a solid character.

 

[Browny]

Falcos reflector wont send back a shadowball to catch him while hes landing as often as one might think, I've seen it happen so many times where it comes out above the shadowball and doesnt travel down with Falco as he is landing. Also the 'perfect range' to auto-kill falco for reflecting shadowball (and confusing it back at him) is pretty huge. You definitely want a flat stage vs Falco. With dash attack, usmash and shadowball I think Mewtwo can trap falcos landings extremely well. In fact, possibly better than almost the entire cast.

Sure I'm biased, but I think comparing frame data in the OP is not indicative of anything, since Mewtwo is the landing lag punishing king (no one does it better) and falco isnt exactly made of options when landing. None of that is reflected in frame data. If falco ever has to recover mid-height or low, Mewtwo has the options to kill him for doing anything if he reads it right with a shadowball offstage to KO or take falco down the nair elevator by intercepting his upb. Its not guaranteed of course, but it can be a 50:50 situation.

I just think if Mewtwo plays the keepaway game vs Falco, it is extremely hard for him to get in since lasers are almost useless and falco is too slow to stop mewtwo regularly going to charge up shadowballs. His answer to shadowballs is more likely to get him killed/punished than it is going to actually stop them. As long as Mewtwo isnt an idiot and fires it from close range, reflector is almost a liability.

 

[Ffamran]

Frame data's there because of what happened at another character board's thread where some users kept saying another character was much slower than their character. I ended up comparing and those two had similar startup on their attacks. If I were to go further with damage, end lag, and landing lag, that might get too cluttered. It's just there to prevent things like "Oh, Falco's moves are so slow, we can punish him with fully charged Up Smash on any moves he does". An extreme and silly example, but yeah.

For me, Reflector is more of a poking tool first, "second dash attack", and then an actual reflect move. Reason being that no reflect in the game is actually safe. Fox's depends on it reflecting or else end lag since if he reflects, he can instantly leave his Reflector and Falco depends that he hits something or reflects and has that reflected projectile to be safe or else, end lag. (Dr.) Mario, Mewtwo, Palutena, etc., all need their reflects to actually connect or else they're all punishable. Even in past games, reflectors didn't invalidate projectile users and in some cases, they weren't even used for reflecting like in Melee, the infamous shines, and in Brawl where Wolf used his intangibility frames to avoid attacks.

Falco also technically cannot land at all. Compared to Bowser, Falco has no aerials with good range or aerials that cover his entire body. Bowser has Nair to cover himself, Dair pretty much makes him invincible, being large makes his Bair have range, Fair has decent range, and only Uair has short range. Then there's the Bowser Bomb. Falco's Nair only covers his upper body and slightly in front and behind him, Bair only covers his back, Fair covers his torso to beak which it would be a good cover, but landing lag, predictability, and having the hitbox be on him - little range - doesn't help, Uair covers behind, above, and slightly in front, and Dair covers waist down, but it's incredibly slow. Falco Phantasm's hitbox is borked while Fire Bird is hilariously slow and hilariously has like no priority. As for trying to use Reflector for covering, it only covers in front of him and there's a ton of end lag. Then add in slow air speed and slow air speed. Falco mostly gets away by having a smallish hurtbox and the fact if he hits you, it's going to hurt, but he relies on the fact he needs to be right next to you to intercept you.

Mewtwo has disjointed - I think they're disjointed - Uair and Bair which have incredible range, Fair has range and is really fast and strong, Nair surrounds Mewtwo with a hitbox which while having little range, at least covers his body unlike Falco's anything, and Dair's slow, but most characters' Dairs are slow. Let's add in that Mewtwo's run speed and air speed is slightly above average. Baiting Reflector would also murder Falco and there's also Teleport too for Mewtwo to juke out Falco.

So, between Falco and Mewtwo, Falco's going to have a hard time landing since Falco doesn't really have much range to stop Mewtwo and he can't exactly run away well while Mewtwo's going to have an easier time landing since Mewtwo has more range on his aerials and he's faster allowing Mewtwo to just run while Falco tries to chase... Time like this makes me wonder why Falco is slower than Ike in this game. Wished Falco had something like DK's run speed, but that will never happen so Falco will be the slowest Star Fox character if and when Wolf comes back.

Anyway, in terms of what Falco wants to do in pretty much every MU, Falco wants to be as close to you as possible. He wants to be like a mosquito or a tick. With such a large hurtbox, Falco would love to use you as punching bag. Mewtwo will be easier to hit compared to Mario or Pikachu. Mewtwo pretty much outranges Falco at all times so there's that.