Meta SSB4 Falco Matchup Discussion 40 - Charizard - Evolutionary War

[Ffamran]

Welcome to the Charizard matchup discussion.

All credit goes to Quas-quas for the original images.​

Here's a link to the main post: SSB4 Falco Matchup Discussion - Main Post. This will be more for general matchup discussions like making a suggestion and such. Or, you could head over to the social thread and ask there: Where We Prefer The Air And The Points Don't Matter!. Or PM me if you really have to, but don't make a habit out of it.

Oh, and if you guys and girls want to play each other to have fun or learn about the MU, check out the NNID and FC sharing thread on the Falco boards: http://smashboards.com/threads/anyone-want-to-exchange-nnids-or-friend-codes.386513/.

There's also the regular NNID and FC sharing threads in the Online discussion if you just want to ask anyone to play.

Notice: Some rules, guidelines, and tips. Some of these are a given since you joined any forum.

1. Be respectful of each other. No insults, no trolling, no flaming, or any of that nonsense.
2. Be aware that some of the discussions can and will be old, so don't call out someone for "wrong" data if that post was referring to say, patch 1.0.3 stuff.
3. Be impartial; learn to see things from other sides. So, don't boast about all the advantages. Notice weaknesses and strengths from both parties.
4. Stay on topic.
5. Have fun.

And here is a frame speed ranking of their regular attacks and grabs - no Specials yet, sorry - to clear up on things since sometimes a move may feel slow, but it's actually fast and vice versa. Plus more information doesn't always hurt. Data from Charizard's Frame Data by @Aerodrome and the Complete Hitbox/Frame Data For Every Character thread.

As of patch 1.1.4.

Move Hit Frames||
Jab|2-4, 10-12, 17-21, 22-26, 27-31, 32-36, (infinite), 41-42|4-5, 14-15, 25-27
Dash Attack|8-11 or 12-19|10-12 or 13-20
Ftilt|6-8|11-13
Utilt|5-9, 12-16|9-13
Dtilt|7-9|9-10
Side Smash|17-19 or 20-20|22-22 or 23-24
Up Smash|7-12, 13-20|6-6 (airborne targets only) or 7-11, 17-21
Down Smash|7-9|14-16
Nair|3-5, 6-9, 14-17, 21-24|9-25
Fair|10-13, 14-17, 18-21, 22-25, 26-27, 28-29|8-9 or 10-11
Bair|4-5 or 6-12|14-16
Uair|7-11|12-15
Dair|16-19 or 20-31|18-20 or 21-26
Grab|8-9|8-9
Dash Grab|10-11|10-11
Pivot Grab|11-12|11-12

 

[Mightyno.M]

I guess I'll try to put in some input
Be very careful around a Charizard or else you'll wind up losing the round

A good Charizard player is patient so you can't expect to be able to whittle them down with your blaster but you can get some damage in but use caution and don't stay near the edge for too long as that is where Charizard operates best having many options to keep you in the corner. Try to maintain stage control as much as you can to win this fight. This is where Falco's passive aggressive style comes to play.

His jab will be used to cover any openings and is also good for a get off me and will be used for easy damage

His ftilt has good range and will be used primarily during a string or if you try to approach and happen to be in tipper range other wises dtilt will be used also the tip has good knock back so be careful

His dtilt doesn't leave to much time to counter so it isn't recommend to try and attack since another dtilt or jab will be followed up if the move whiffs

Up tilt can combo at early percents and his wings don't have a hurtbox so don't attack him from directly above or else he'll just knock you into the air and begin mixing up up tilts and smash to rack up quick percents because he doesn't need too much before it becomes "kill percent"

Up air for the most will be just to fake you into airdodging into another up smash so the best thing to do is to side b out of the way it's too dangerous to attempt to use an aerial of our own.

Nair is going to be one of his most used moves. It hits all around him can auto cancel and can be used to edgeguard apply edge pressure juggle and just like all his other moves that include his tail it has a tipper. If you happen to be grabbing the edge or trying to recover he may hover near the edge with nair waiting to see a reaction.

All his other aerials are what you'd expect but be careful his dair is very strong and his fair's tipper is now at the tip of his claws rather than inside from the previous patch. His bair is only for killing and most Charizard's won't use it as a primary way of killing but it has great range and kills ridiculously early.

His flamethrower will be used alot especially following a jump angled downwards. He can also angle is upwards to catch people trying to approach by air. Finally he can use it when you try to recover either with side b or up b as well as him using it by the ledge to pressure you to make a decision and waste your invincibility.

If you knock him offstage it isn't recommended to try and edgeguard at all. Both forms of recovery have super armor and if he makes it back to having stage control you have just given him what he wanted. A general rule of thumb is that if Charizard is far away he will use Flare Blitz and that is in fact punishable but not directly all it takes is the ability to follow this flowchart.
1 if he is chooses to use FB and is aiming to use it high run back and try to take advantage of the high endlag and his poor air speed
2 if he is aiming at the ledge focus on if he timed it right and if he is coming at the right angle and you can do one of two things
A) you can shield the move ot he'll bounce off the wall allowing and easy fair (falcon players can even get off a knee do to FB)
B) He will snap the edge allowing with proper prediction and reaction to steal the edge and follow up with Bair
If he trys to dip down and recover low try intercepting with a bair stagespike
Recovering will be a nightmare due to his variety or edgeguard and pressure and how many of his actions can cover more than one get up option or can lead to anothet for example Charizard can use nair to stall you out long enough to down smash or space you out with flamethrower to trick you to either roll attack or even just get up into a down smash
Charizard isn't lazy also as he may just go out there to finish up your stock himself with an aerial

Its best to remain un predictable so get some damage, do a quick string and get out

Use blaster at a distance and reflecter at a closer distance to ruin his day but you're a Falco main and Falco is all about style and mixing up how you approach

Last tips are that Charizard's up throw now does more damage so it will be used more often
His forward and back throw are good spacers and his back throw can link to fair at early percents
His down throw can kill

I hope I sounded coherent enough I was planning on just responding to comments but I decided just to break the ice since I main Charizard and have Falco as my secondary but we all know how much of a jewel a Charizard player can be thank you for your time and may fortune smile upon you

Also none of this is with customs because that just raises Charizard to beyond levels of recognition...

 

[Gamegenie222]

Hmm nice writeup and yeah Charizard is a rare character to find but us Falco players are in the same boat as well and most people write us off super hard. I would love to get games in with you or other Charizard mains and grind the cause i every time i played it i felt it was like even or slight advantage falco but i may be wrong LMAO

 

[Mightyno.M]

Thanks and sure

 

[Gamegenie222]

Thanks and sure

What days are u open this week?

 

[Mightyno.M]

Probably Thursday

 

[Gamegenie222]

Probably Thursday

Nights, afternoon? I be sure to you up.

 

[Mightyno.M]

Nights, afternoon? I be sure to you up.

Anytime reasonable

 

[Ffamran]

Kind of wished you guys would have taken this arrangement to a PM... Anyway, Charizard can jab cancel pretty well which means he can jab to grab if you let him. I don't really know much about Charizard other than Falco can take advantage of his larger hurtbox while Charizard can take advantage of Falco's lightweight, slower mobility, and that rage just makes Charizard even stronger.

 

[AmishTechnology]

Don't have much to say, Charizard is extremely rare. He's actually quite hard to approach for Falco due to one factor: Falco's awful run speed. Typically, the way to punish Charizard is either bombard him into traps (e.g. Villager spam nonsense) or just straight up bait and punish his lagginess (not very easy for him to wall off with jab and tilt against fast characters). Falco doesn't really have either of these, so Charizard's bread and butter jab, dtilt, ftilt, nair, and dash grab are way stronger than against good characters.

His side B and up B don't get flinched, I've landed a perfect d-air and he just up-B'd right through it, don't know if this is super armor and if side-B has the exact same immunity. Basically, don't try to interrupt either of these two. I think you only go for off-stage edge guard if he's at a weird 45 degree angle and far enough where neither Flare Blitz nor Fly will give secure him the ledge grab, so you can pressure him with your aerials and whatnot. Otherwise, if he's perfectly horizontal or close enough to Fly and ledge snap, I think you're better off just going for ledge trump or baiting ledge trump into punishing his buffered getup/roll/whatever.

Tried taking Charizard to Battlefield twice, got beat both times. He has a nice combo/string on you with those low platforms, though I don't exactly remember how it went. I probably should've taken him to flat stages like FD and Duck Hunt.

Usually, it's really easy to punish his whiffed tilts and down-Bs and stuff. I repeat myself: not with Falco. Still, Charizard may provide you ample time to punish him. The "safer" ones will be more inclined to try and jab you or tipper f-tilt you and whatnot. See what he likes to do, keep your mind sharp.

 

[Ffamran]

Charizard's run speed is rank 8 and just right below Sheik. Falco is ranked 38. Justifiable since Charizard flies for his run, but not really justifiable for Falco... Charizard and Bowser are the fastest running heavyweights, DK and Ike are in the middle, and Triple D and Ganondorf are the slowest.

 

[Gamegenie222]

Up b has armor and is a decent OOS option at high percentage with rage. Also battlefield is a decent Falco stage but idk about Zard.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

You can actually spike Flare Blitz.

I just wouldn't recommend it for Falco.

His entire torso is the hitbox meaning Zard will hit you regardless.



Zard's actually love Battlefield and Smashville.

Final Destination may be our worst.

Regardless, Zard isn't a character hindered by stages to much.

Either way, I've seen a lot of Falcos underestimate just how crafty Zard's tools are when playing defensively.

I'd actually recommend going ham and rushing in.

 

[Gamegenie222]

I have been doing that actually and i like battlefield as Falco lol