Meta SSB4 Falco Matchup Discussion 36 - King Dedede - Free-As-A-Bird

[Ffamran]

Welcome to the King Dedede matchup discussion.

All credit goes to Quas-quas for the original images.​

Here's a link to the main post: SSB4 Falco Matchup Discussion - Main Post. This will be more for general matchup discussions like making a suggestion and such. Or, you could head over to the social thread and ask there: Where We Prefer The Air And The Points Don't Matter!. Or PM me if you really have to, but don't make a habit out of it.

Oh, and if you guys and girls want to play each other to have fun or learn about the MU, check out the NNID and FC sharing thread on the Falco boards: http://smashboards.com/threads/anyone-want-to-exchange-nnids-or-friend-codes.386513/.

There's also the regular NNID and FC sharing threads in the Online discussion if you just want to ask anyone to play.

Notice: Some rules, guidelines, and tips. Some of these are a given since you joined any forum.

1. Be respectful of each other. No insults, no trolling, no flaming, or any of that nonsense.
2. Be aware that some of the discussions can and will be old, so don't call out someone for "wrong" data if that post was referring to say, patch 1.0.3 stuff.
3. Be impartial; learn to see things from other sides. So, don't boast about all the advantages. Notice weaknesses and strengths from both parties.
4. Stay on topic.
5. Have fun.

And here is a frame speed ranking of their regular attacks and grabs - no Specials yet, sorry - to clear up on things since sometimes a move may feel slow, but it's actually fast and vice versa. Plus more information doesn't always hurt. Data from the Complete Hitbox/Frame Data For Every Character thread.

As of patch 1.1.4.

Move Hit Frames||
Jab|2-4, 10-12, 17-21, 22-26, 27-31, 32-36, (infinite), 41-42|10-11, 30-31, 35-35, (infinite), (finisher)
Dash Attack|8-11 or 12-19|26-27 or 28-35
Ftilt|6-8|12-21
Utilt|5-9, 12-16|9-15
Dtilt|7-9|6-8 or 9-13
Side Smash|17-19 or 20-20|42-44 or 45-47 or 48-49
Up Smash|7-12, 13-20|17-24
Down Smash|7-9|14-22
Nair|3-5, 6-9, 14-17, 21-24|7-8 or 9-29
Fair|10-13, 14-17, 18-21, 22-25, 26-27, 28-29|13-15
Bair|4-5 or 6-12|17-19
Uair|7-11|10-10, (6 more hits), 24-25
Dair|16-19 or 20-31|22-23
Grab|8-9|7-8
Dash Grab|10-11|9-10
Pivot Grab|11-12|10-11

 

[Zionaze]

Hoo boy
Dedede is probably the one character I have the most practice with since my friend mains him.
Reflector > gordo
D3's Nair and Dtilt is the only thing you need to look out for really.
D3 will be the one approaching you since you'll be harrassing with single shot retreating lasers. When he starts getting close enough bair spacing will do wonders.
Also a fair facing the stage will beat d3's up-b which could lead to a stage spike.
Id say its a 60-40 mu in favor of falco

 

[Ffamran]

Never use Gordo right at the match since Falco can snipe Gordo back. It's one of those things newbie Triple D's do and it's kind of funny that a thin laser can just knock Gordo back like that. Ditto on running up to Falco and throwing Gordo out like that since Falco can play soccer/football with it... Gordo is both the worst projectile and the best projectile when used right.

First thing's first: beware Triple D's Dash Attack. It looks stupid, it's stupidly slow, it lingers for a stupid time, and it's stupidly powerful. It's one of those moves that makes you feel secure, but then it murders you like how people get mesmerized by Sonic's Side Smash and the Up Smashes of (Dr.) Mario, Luigi, Wario, and Mr. Game & Watch. Uair on the other hand just lingers for a long time.

One thing about Super Dedede Jump is that like Yoshi's Yoshi Bomb and Bowser's Bowser Bomb is that there's a landing hitbox. In this case, it's like Yoshi's with the little stars that can make it look like you can bum rush into Triple D, but you actually can't... Then again, don't bum rush. Triple D can jab cancel well into grab, tilts, and Smashes.

Both fighters will abuse each other; Falco will abuse Triple D's slow air speed, fast fall speed, slower attack speed, and large hurtbox while Triple D will abuse Falco's slow air speed, fast fall speed, shorter melee range, and light weight. They will also abuse each other's "bad" projectiles. They're also easily gimped and spiked because of their recoveries and sluggishness in the air.

 

[JimmyTheCaterpillar]

Dedesy main here.

I'm reserving this post because I've always been really interested in this battle of the birds, so I'm going to do a lot of labwork right now and edit this post with my findings at some point before this discussion is over.

 

[Gamegenie222]

I haven't played the MU much sadly and I fight it annoying that we have some trouble killing the bird. I have a vid against a d3 on Anther's pre patch if people are curious cause i played iffy lol?

 

[Ffamran]

It's kind of funny how a penguin can sort of fly around while the pheasant can't. And they're both blue.

I haven't played the MU much sadly and I fight it annoying that we have some trouble killing the bird. I have a vid against a d3 on Anther's pre patch if people are curious cause i played iffy lol?

Well, Triple D being a fast faller and heavyweight makes him really, really tough; Triple D is the second fastest faller second to Fox and the third heaviest character. That belly sort of helps too.

 

[gameplayzero]

that d3 pic is amazing. Props to the artist.

 

[SoundChow]

I'm going to give my limited knowledge on this matchup, having just played a very good DDD on anther's ladder a few minutes ago. First off, this matchup isn't easy, it's really difficult if you're up against an experienced player. You have to be familiar with DDD's ground and aerial ranges, ground being about the length of his pivot f-tilt, and aerial being the length of his b-air. You do not want to be in DDD's hammer range, his jab sucks you in, leading to d-tilt/grab/dash-attack (roll read), and his d-tilt is incredibly fast. Shoot him from afar with lasers, dodge his approaches with sh-phantasm, and look for openings. Always try to juggle him in the air because he doesn't have very safe landing options. Look out for fast-fall nair and punish that with an easy d-smash. It's hard to land kills on him because he's so heavy, so try to edge guard him with bair, fair, or ledge trump bair. You need to play patiently in this match because Dedede heavily outranges us and his moves are deceptively fast and powerful. I'd say this mu is 50-50 or slightly disadvantageous for Falco.

 

[BltzZ]

Alright so 1v1 I can win this match-up a great amount of times due to smart play and reads not to mention match-up memory. However in a 2v2 where my partner is either Cpt falcon or ZSS this match-up is annoying due to me reflecting gordos and opponents either accidentally hitting gordos back at me or teammate for silly kills.

Also my main gripe how can you edge guard DDD? his recovery has alot of armor my fair and nair cant get through and my only success is forcing him to land on stage wait out the stars from his landing and RAR bair for the kill but is that really all? Because i just played these guys and they were definitely salty due to our streak against them then they went with 2 DDDs and kept wrecking us with his insane hitboxes and gordos hitting other reflected gordos back at us lol. 2v2 against 2 DDDs is just ridiculous. Obviously with team attack on in normal tourneys or friendlies this doesn't even matter but for online game play its hair ripper for me.

 

[AviaRy]

Reserving this post for later, will edit after I do some lab work:

Possible gimp options I can see are:

• Bair when D3 is rising with UpB (Stage spike?)
• Rising Fair when D3 is rising with UpB (Would send them pretty high, but it easier to catch him out of the air)
• Falling Fair (Trade semi-spike or letting D3 fall out of it)

The main problem is how safe D3's landing is after Super jump & super jump's super armor

Gonna do some lab work to figure out if there are any other options, I'll also test on-stage options on landing and when D3 is rising. Might be able to get a trollsy down-angled FTilt or something.

 

[BltzZ]

Reserving this post for later, will edit after I do some lab work:

Possible gimp options I can see are:

• Bair when D3 is rising with UpB (Stage spike?)
• Rising Fair when D3 is rising with UpB (Would send them pretty high, but it easier to catch him out of the air)
• Falling Fair (Trade semi-spike or letting D3 fall out of it)

The main problem is how safe D3's landing is after Super jump & super jump's super armor

Gonna do some lab work to figure out if there are any other options, I'll also test on-stage options on landing and when D3 is rising. Might be able to get a trollsy down-angled FTilt or something.

His landing is safe to a certain degree, I've noticed I was able to wait out the stars and dash grab or dash attack or even at high percents for the kill, RAR bair or up smash.

Also I've tried to hit him out of his Up-Bs and it seems he has armor through it but let me know if you find anything I really want to edge guard this guy lol

 

[AviaRy]

Aight here's what I've found out about D3's UpB:

Going up:
D3 doesn't actually have super armor during this period, so you can do whatever you want as long as you can catch him, which is extremely difficult. He's moving really fast, and it is impractical to try and do anything but stage spike with a Bair or catch him with a Nair. Nair's not really going to do anything though, as he can just UpB again. So throw out a Bair and hope for the best if you choose to edge guard at this stage (and you probably will have to, because D3 can grab the ledge when going up)

Top of the arc:
When D3 reaches the top of his arc, he becomes the most vulnerable. He'll hover in about the same spot for a moment before crashing back down. When he's at this point, he doesn't actually have super armor either. This is the best time to edgeguard him, if the situation presents itself. You can Bair, Fair, or even Dair pretty easy if you read this option.

[Note that by pressing up on the control stick again at this point, the D3 player can make D3 go into special fall instead of crashing down. This makes D3 super vulnerable, but at least he will be able to grab the ledge.]

Crashing down:
GTFO of the way. Seriously. Coming down, D3 has super armor, spikes, and does ****loads of damage. If you get hit above the stage, you're eating 15% if you tech it and 26% if you don't. Just GTFO the way, because knocking him out of super armor is extremely unlikely (You can sometimes do it if D3 has fallen a long ways, but if you don't space yourself perfectly, it's most likely going to trade).

When D3 actually hits the ground, he does a ****load of shield damage and spits out some stars. Those stars push you far enough away that, no matter if you got hit by or shielded them, you can't punish D3 (he'll be out of landing lag by that point). You can, however, jump over the stars for an aerial punish if you're quick enough (Bair or Fair works best, or you can try an L-canceled Dair if you're a TASbot), although this requires you to read where they will land.

The much, much safer option I found, it you can read exactly where D3 will land, is throwing out a grounded reflector right after D3 hits the ground. This will hit him with both the reflector and reflect those annoying stars back at him. This option takes timing, spacing, and practice, however.
If you throw out the reflector too early, it won't reflect the stars. If you throw it out too late, he can shield it.
If you're too far away, the reflector won't hit D3. If you're too close, the reflector will be interrupted and result in a disadvantageous trade.

Hope this helps.