Meta SSB4 Falco Matchup Discussion 33 - Wario - Garlic Bread

[Ffamran]

Welcome to the Wario matchup discussion.

All credit goes to Quas-quas for the original images.​

Here's a link to the main post: SSB4 Falco Matchup Discussion - Main Post. This will be more for general matchup discussions like making a suggestion and such. Or, you could head over to the social thread and ask there: Where We Prefer The Air And The Points Don't Matter!. Or PM me if you really have to, but don't make a habit out of it.

Oh, and if you guys and girls want to play each other to have fun or learn about the MU, check out the NNID and FC sharing thread on the Falco boards: http://smashboards.com/threads/anyone-want-to-exchange-nnids-or-friend-codes.386513/.

There's also the regular NNID and FC sharing threads in the Online discussion if you just want to ask anyone to play.

Notice: Some rules, guidelines, and tips. Some of these are a given since you joined any forum.

1. Be respectful of each other. No insults, no trolling, no flaming, or any of that nonsense.
2. Be aware that some of the discussions can and will be old, so don't call out someone for "wrong" data if that post was referring to say, patch 1.0.3 stuff.
3. Be impartial; learn to see things from other sides. So, don't boast about all the advantages. Notice weaknesses and strengths from both parties.
4. Stay on topic.
5. Have fun.

And here is a frame speed ranking of their regular attacks and grabs - no Specials yet, sorry - to clear up on things since sometimes a move may feel slow, but it's actually fast and vice versa. Plus more information doesn't always hurt. Data from the Complete Hitbox/Frame Data For Every Character thread.

As of patch 1.1.4.

Move Hit Frames||
Jab|2-4, 10-12, 17-21, 22-26, 27-31, 32-36, (infinite), 41-42|8-9, 16-17
Dash Attack|8-11 or 12-19|4-5 or 6-23
Ftilt|6-8|12-15
Utilt|5-9, 12-16|12-14 or 15-23
Dtilt|7-9|5-5
Side Smash|17-19 or 20-20|18-19
Up Smash|7-12, 13-20|11-12 or 13-13
Down Smash|7-9|8-17 or 18-27 or 28-36
Nair|3-5, 6-9, 14-17, 21-24|4-4 or 15-38
Fair|10-13, 14-17, 18-21, 22-25, 26-27, 28-29|5-6 or 7-17
Bair|4-5 or 6-12|9-11
Uair|7-11|8-9
Dair|16-19 or 20-31|9-9, (5 hits), 21-21
Grab|8-9|8-9
Dash Grab|10-11|8-9
Pivot Grab|11-12|8-9

 

[NotAnAdmin]

Haven't had much exp with one.
Seems like he's another rarity.

Anyways, the Bike is a huge issue for Falco. It's a pretty solid projectile and approach for Wario.
A smart Wario will jump off the bike early to let it ghost ride into the opponent and lock him down with an aerial follow-up. It's pretty tough to steer around all that flying at you.
Falco's lasers can force Wario to get close, but Wario hits hard. Since he's heavy, Falco can make some easy follow-ups after the d-throw. Falco always has his fair off stage and other things for edgeguarding.

Not exactly sure where I'd put the number on this one.
Probably 60-40 Wario's favor.

 

[Ffamran]

Falco's Bair will be your friend if you're Falco and it'll be your enemy if you're Wario. Bair destroys Wario's Bike and if Wario's on it for some reason, Wario's going to eat damage too. I think his Ftilt can destroy his Bike too, but I'm not really sure. It would get predictable to do that all the time, so Falco can use Reflector to knock Wario off if Wario is ever on the Bike.

The thing is that Falco really doesn't need to approach while Wario can approach well because of Bike. It's more of a even thing since it's not one character can't approach, but has to approach or one character doesn't have to approach, but approaches well. In the end, it's up to the other to punish the other. So, Wario shouldn't be predictable which would lead Falco to punish his approaches while Wario should notice the pattern or how Falco punishes his approaches and punish that. I'm not sure how Bike works when it slams down, but I bet that it would just wreck Falco before he could Bair destroy it.

Things to note about Wario: Up Smash and Utilt are invincible sort of like how (Dr.) Mario and Luigi's Up Smash are invincible. Dair has little landing lag kind of like Kirby's Dair meaning he can combo out of it like using Corkscrew out of Dair. Along with grab, he has a command grab which can be used in the air, Bite. You can't really challenge it as far as I know other than using Reflector, Blaster, and maybe Fire Bird and Falco Phantasm which might not work and it'll just end up with Falco going into Wario's jaws of death. For customs, Rose Waft is really disjointed; it covers an area below the ledge meaning Falco's recovery is even more limited and guess what? It charges quicker making it possible for Falco to get gimped early in the match if he screws up. This might force Falco Phase to be used which means Falco cannot soft spike or damage Wario with Phantasm. Another thing is that his Dash Attack lingers like Mario's and it can soft-spike you if you're at the ledge because the last hitbox trips which causes soft spikes in the air. Oh, and Speedy Bike is an edgeguard tool; it will kill you which means Falco Phase is probably what Falco's going to be limited to in customs against Wario.

The funny thing is that Falco and Wario end up be opposites in the air where Falco moves really well vertically while Wario moves well horizontally. Without their burst movements, I think Wario and Falco have similar ground movement. Both being strong means it'll be common to see the other off stage or in the air, but Wario will live longer and has a much safer recovery. The major difference is that Wario is heavy; Falco isn't.

Up close, Falco does attack faster, but Wario's Dtilt is spammable like Diddy's Dtilt. At the same time, even though Falco is faster, mis-spacing moves will let Wario punish hard, especially with his Ftilt and Side Smash. In the air, Wario basically has two sex kicks, Nair and Fair, while Bair hits really hard, Dair shouldn't be challenged from below, and I'm not really sure about Uair other than it might be a way for him to juggle. Falco would like to be behind him because of his faster Bair, but once again, mis-spacing means Wario gets to land his own powerful Bair. For off-stage, Falco wants Wario to be low instead of high up or above the stage since that just makes it easier for him to recover sort of like Jigglypuff who recovers well horizontally and makes use of most people having high angled knockback.

 

[Spinosaurus]

The thing is that Falco really doesn't need to approach

Just have to respond to this because Falco does need to approach Wario, who actually wants to camp. (Wario shouldn't approach) Every second of you not doing anything to Wario is a free charge for Waft, which puts him at a great advantage since Waft is probably the most threatening move in the game and a Wario with a waft charged is the scariest character to go up against. Falco especially is an easy waft target since he's so slow in the ground and air horizontally.

I don't really have much to say since I have little experience vs Falco, but I'm having a hard time knowing how Falco can deal against a campy and passive Wario. Not sure if Wario can punish blasters from far with bike since it goes through it (definitely can mid range), but even then he can just keep eating each consecutive blaster with Bite since he can recover fast enough with each one.

 

[Ffamran]

Just have to respond to this because Falco does need to approach Wario, who actually wants to camp. (Wario shouldn't approach) Every second of you not doing anything to Wario is a free charge for Waft, which puts him at a great advantage since Waft is probably the most threatening move in the game and a Wario with a waft charged is the scariest character to go up against. Falco especially is an easy waft target since he's so slow in the ground and air horizontally.

I don't really have much to say since I have little experience vs Falco, but I'm having a hard time knowing how Falco can deal against a campy and passive Wario. Not sure if Wario can punish blasters from far with bike since it goes through it (definitely can mid range), but even then he can just keep eating each consecutive blaster with Bite since he can recover fast enough with each one.

Eh, I never fought a campy Wario and mostly aggressive ones. I forgot to mention that Waft is the scariest thing to deal with regardless of who you use. Being in shield right next to Wario is pretty much like dealing with a bomb that could go off at any second. You can get read for dropping your shield, probably shield poked, read for a roll, read for a spot dodge, have your shield popped, or whatever. You're stuck in Wario Land and it's not going to be a fun time. There's also the whole set a Bike there and then use Waft since people can't really see what Wario's doing. I think Reflex uses that a lot.

Thing is that Falco might not need to approach if he's way ahead of the game, like he somehow ends up with 50% with two stocks while Wario's on his final stock. Then again, that applies to everyone. At that point, it's the leader who doesn't really have to do much but punish.

 

[Spinosaurus]

There's also the whole set a Bike there and then use Waft since people can't really see what Wario's doing. I think Reflex uses that a lot.

Thing is that Falco might not need to approach if he's way ahead of the game, like he somehow ends up with 50% with two stocks while Wario's on his final stock. Then again, that applies to everyone. At that point, it's the leader who doesn't really have to do much but punish.

Actually the reason we do that isn't to cover our wafts (although that helps), but because wafting a bike lingers the hitbox of the waft for like 20 extra frames iirc. (And also extend it) The more you know~

Yeah if you got a big lead and Wario has a waft that's when he want to approach, but seriously if a Wario let that happen then he deserves to lose. Wario is all about being safe as hell and he has strong defensive options.

 

[Ffamran]

Really? Man, Bike is just wonky. I remember Reflex doing some research on Bike's throwing physics and it was just weird. And... I forgot to mention that yes, Wario can drop Bike off the ledge or throw it off and knowing how Falco's recovery works, he's probably going to get gimped if not killed. It's the ultimate weapon against characters with Falco's recovery like Captain Falcon, Ganondorf, Fox, and Ike's.

 

[NotAnAdmin]

Extends the hitbox and frames?!?! Dammit Sakurai!

Wow I had no idea, I wonder why it works that way.
Thanks for the insight, Wario might be a harder match-up than I thought.

Usually the Warios I've come across are pretty aggressive, I never figured that Wario would like to camp other than to bide time to get a waft ready.

 

[Adrian Marin]

Really? Man, Bike is just wonky. I remember Reflex doing some research on Bike's throwing physics and it was just weird. And... I forgot to mention that yes, Wario can drop Bike off the ledge or throw it off and knowing how Falco's recovery works, he's probably going to get gimped if not killed. It's the ultimate weapon against characters with Falco's recovery like Captain Falcon, Ganondorf, Fox, and Ike's.

His horizontal air speed is kind of bad, which also gives Wario the ease in throwing the bike upwards near the ledge before Falco manages to recover. Falco seems to be very prone to his edgeguarding shenanigans in general. I particularly get 60% bike followups against Falco players unprepared for Wario's edgeguarding.

In the neutral, they're very equal, but once Wario gets the edgeguarding advantage, Falco is in serious trouble.

 

[DrCoeloCephalo]

Only faced like 1 good Falco player before. Falco seems to be slower and have alot more endlag than Fox, making him easier to punish for Wario.

His horizontal air speed is kind of bad, which also gives Wario the ease in throwing the bike upwards near the ledge before Falco manages to recover. Falco seems to be very prone to his edgeguarding shenanigans in general. I particularly get 60% bike followups against Falco players unprepared for Wario's edgeguarding.

In the neutral, they're very equal, but once Wario gets the edgeguarding advantage, Falco is in serious trouble.

Falco players will try to spike you with SideB (Illusion), but Wario's recovery is too good to fall for that. It seems like Falco will have to try to get his laser on Wario while Wario's getting his bike out if he wants to gimp him... if Falco can actually get that high enough or afford to go low enough to do that. Bike also negates those lazers on the ground if you're not already shielding/jumping. Also, Wario can afford to go low to gimp Falco unless he's high enough for an Illusion. Chomp beats out Illusion, but this requires optimal height and timing anyway. It's best just to predict it and punish unless you space it enough to get him on the end of the Illusion.

Falco is also one of those characters who doesn't really have the mobility/tools to stop Wario from camping out for full Waft Charge unless FD, but that just leaves more room for bike punishes/escapes.

 

[Adrian Marin]

Only faced like 1 good Falco player before. Falco seems to be slower and have alot more endlag than Fox, making him easier to punish for Wario.



Falco players will try to spike you with SideB (Illusion), but Wario's recovery is too good to fall for that. It seems like Falco will have to try to get his laser on Wario while Wario's getting his bike out if he wants to gimp him... if Falco can actually get that high enough or afford to go low enough to do that. Bike also negates those lazers on the ground if you're not already shielding/jumping. Also, Wario can afford to go low to gimp Falco unless he's high enough for an Illusion. Chomp beats out Illusion, but this requires optimal height and timing anyway. It's best just to predict it and punish unless you space it enough to get him on the end of the Illusion.

Falco is also one of those characters who doesn't really have the mobility/tools to stop Wario from camping out for full Waft Charge unless FD, but that just leaves more room for bike punishes/escapes.

Well, it's really quite simple to set the bike by moving near the right edge of the stage. This will avoid all risks of Falco spiking you. If Falco can't recover feasibly with Illusion, then he's seriously screwed, because Wario really abuses his slow Up B. It's ridiculously easy to waft a Falco attempting to recover with Up B.

Falco lacks the tools to camp against Wario safely. Wario has an easy time approaching, he has his bite, and he thrives on the edgeguard. This isn't a very good matchup for Falco.

 

[SoundChow]

You have to be very careful when using Falco's laser because of Wario's bike. Bike normally isn't a safe approach option, but it's quick enough to punish the endlag of Falco's laser and it racks up a lot of damage with its multiple hitboxes. Use nair to get Wario out of his bike, or just shield it and punish Wario after he uses his second jump. Respect him in the air if he's in front of you and notice if he becomes reckless with chomp. Punish a misspaced chomp with a d-tilt, it has slightly more range than chomp.

 

[Ffamran]

Beware of Wario's Dair off stage. Like Fox and Falco's Fair and Sheik's Dair, you're going to get soft-spiked because of it. Exhibit A: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lt9qUWwUHMI#t=8m41s. Also, I have no idea why Falco's Up Smash was interacting with his Bike like that which caused him to fall off the ledge or when he ended up clanking and not getting hit by Bike later in the match.

 

[DrCoeloCephalo]

I've recently learned that Falco really struggles at closing out stocks. Even if he grabs us, he can't KO us with one until really late percents. If you can get a stock ahead and be campy, Falco really can't do much.

 

[Antagonist]

My little bro is a Wario main (imo a pretty good one). Our matches are varied, sometimes they're really close, sometimes I mash him into bird food, sometimes he tears my wings off. We both feel the MU is in the other's favor. I'll post some links of some of our matches once I upload them so you guys can maybe pick apart some of the match up details.

Personally, I feel it's close on neutral, perhaps slightly in Falco's favor in neutral due to our combos. Wario on the other hand having much better edgeguarding potential as Wario has so many tools against Falco and Falco having a much more predictable linear recovery.