Meta SSB4 Falco Matchup Discussion 32 - Sonic - Good Ol' Blues

[Ffamran]

Welcome to the Sonic the Hedgehog matchup discussion.

All credit goes to Quas-quas for the original images.​

Here's a link to the main post: SSB4 Falco Matchup Discussion - Main Post. This will be more for general matchup discussions like making a suggestion and such. Or, you could head over to the social thread and ask there: Where We Prefer The Air And The Points Don't Matter!. Or PM me if you really have to, but don't make a habit out of it.

Oh, and if you guys and girls want to play each other to have fun or learn about the MU, check out the NNID and FC sharing thread on the Falco boards: http://smashboards.com/threads/anyone-want-to-exchange-nnids-or-friend-codes.386513/.

There's also the regular NNID and FC sharing threads in the Online discussion if you just want to ask anyone to play.

Notice: Some rules, guidelines, and tips. Some of these are a given since you joined any forum.

1. Be respectful of each other. No insults, no trolling, no flaming, or any of that nonsense.
2. Be aware that some of the discussions can and will be old, so don't call out someone for "wrong" data if that post was referring to say, patch 1.0.3 stuff.
3. Be impartial; learn to see things from other sides. So, don't boast about all the advantages. Notice weaknesses and strengths from both parties.
4. Stay on topic.
5. Have fun.

And here is a frame speed ranking of their regular attacks and grabs - no Specials yet, sorry - to clear up on things since sometimes a move may feel slow, but it's actually fast and vice versa. Plus more information doesn't always hurt. Data from Moveset Thread by @Sonic Orochi where you can other Sonic data like his Specials and the Complete Hitbox/Frame Data For Every Character thread.

As of patch 1.1.4.

Move Hit Frames||
Jab|2-4, 10-12, 17-21, 22-26, 27-31, 32-36, (infinite), 41-42|3-3, 9-10, 14-16
Dash Attack|8-11 or 12-19|5-15, 17-20
Ftilt|6-8|6-6, 8-11
Utilt|5-9, 12-16|7-9 or 8-9 and 18-19
Dtilt|7-9|6-7
Side Smash|17-19 or 20-20|18-20
Up Smash|8-12, 13-20|19-19, 21-21, 33-34
Down Smash|7-9|12-13
Nair|3-5, 6-9, 14-17, 21-24|6-9 or 10-19 or 20-38
Fair|10-13, 14-17, 18-21, 22-25, 26-27, 28-29|5-5, 15-15
Bair|4-5 or 6-12|13-14 or 15-19
Uair|7-11|5-7, 14-15
Dair|16-19 or 20-31|17-18 or 19-22 or 23-32
Grab|8-9|6-7
Dash Grab|10-11|10-11
Pivot Grab|11-12|10-11

 

[gameplayzero]

I'm going to try to fight a custom sonic today, but all I can say is that this is a horrible match up. We can stop the spin dash with a laser, but if the sonic is wise enough its easy to just bait it and punish us thanks to the lag. With customs its even worse. I'll do some experimenting with the reflector customs, but even then thats a laggy move too. I'd just avoid using falco at all cost in this match up unless you are crazy like me and want to prove something.

I'll post the vid at some point.


Basic sonic tips:

• Practice teching the down throw and never tech inwards unless you know its safe. Sonic's always wait for the forward smash punish from teching.
• Play EXTREMELY patiently since thats all you have. Never make the first move. Our moves are too slow to try to dictate the match. Figure out the sonic and watch his habits.
• Up air is probably our best kill tool/approach option this match up. Sonic LOVES to jump after a spin dash. Just be warned that the dair from sonic can and will come out. Probably want to bait that for a punish.

These are all normal sonic tips and I'll contribute later after fighting some 1v1.

 

[Ffamran]

One thing to note, Reflector will interrupt Spin Dash and Charge, so Sonic can't go ham with those and camping with them would also be a bit stupid since Blaster can still catch Sonic and interrupt his Spin Dash and Charge. I'm not sure about Burning Spin Dash, though. Neither character has to approach as Sonic can use Spin Dash to jump over lasers, Sonic can bait Reflector, and Sonic's speed is already there to help with annoying people and making hit and runs while Falco can sit pretty waiting to punish Sonic.

Never get behind either of them. Sonic's Bair might be slow, but it packs a punch and Sonic's air speed is good enough to drift with Bair not to mention his Bair and that he can just Side Smash you if you're that stupid. Falco can pretty much do the same. It's much more crucial in the air as both of them can just Bair punish the other or Uair punish if either miss their Uair.

Up close, it's just a war between who outboxes and spaces well against the other. Off-stage, Sonic can gimp Falco with Spring Jump's spring, stage spike, run off Fairs, and if he really wants to, Dair spike while Falco pretty much does the same except for Spring Jump since he doesn't have that. The main issue is that Sonic's Spring Jump makes him invincible or intangible, I'm not sure which, when he launches up. That pretty much means he's untouchable, but if he over shoots the ledge, he can't really do much except for use his aerials and if he undershoots, then just let him fall as he loses his second jump if he uses Spring Jump. Both characters can SD with their Side Specials while recovering, if Falco messes up the input, he'll Falco Phantasm towards the wall or under the stage and might not make it back while Sonic can end up hitting the underside of the stage instead of clearing over it with Spin Dash.

Sonic can overwhelm Falco with speed, but the thing is that Falco still has power to back up everything that he does. Catching Sonic is the main issue because of Falco's poor horizontal mobility, but there isn't anything really bad or cheesy Sonic can do to Falco that makes it horribly disadvantaged to Falco. Sonic doesn't want to trade hits with Falco and Falco doesn't want to take too many hits from Sonic.

 

[gameplayzero]

Just the main issue is that as you said, is just trying to catch him. Against a good sonic the only way you are going to get some hits off is to time everything and know when he messes up certain moves like the auto canceled dair. Like you said, with falco's terrible horizontal movement sonic can just dance around him. Sonics should know this and should never be in a position where they are just letting us go after them. If falco's movement was buffed then this wouldn't be so bad of a match up. Sonic struggles against people who zone him out, but our zoning tools against sonic aren't all that great since he can just bait or just move around our projectiles. People with captain falcon jabs (constantly spamming the first punch of it) beat out sonic's spin dash, but our jab is eh for that strategy.

but I'll still find a way around this if freakin sonic mains actually wanted to fight me -__-.

 

[Gamegenie222]

Ugh this MU I hate it so much lol. The one time I wish I had Brawl lasers .

 

[theONEjanitor]

This matchup is annoying, but I don't think it's hard, might even be in Falco's favor. You just have to face the facts, you're falco, you're nowhere near as fast as Sonic. You're going to have to play a calculated game and bring the pace to your level, and your punishes have to be on point.
Lasers and reflectors are your friends. A lot of Sonics just by habit/muscle memory immediately start charging down b in neutral. Laser dat mess. then they will start mixing it up, throwing in cancels and jumps, and imo this is better for you because you don't have to deal with the gimmick and you actually get to fight your opponent. If you have the reaction time, you can also stop spin dash with your reflector.
Shield.
you will be shielding A LOT in this matchup, (probably the case for anyone vs sonic). if he spin dashes at you, shielding is the most reliable option. At kill percents, if your timing is good, you can trade your f-smash with his spin dash for the kill, but usually I would just shield. After he rolls through your shield, he can roll back through again (shield this), he can jump out into nair or upair. (shield this and then punish with aerial of choice), he can stop as soon as he crosses you up and turn around grab/ftilt/etc (the trickiest option imo), he can go into homing attack (the worst option imo, but maybe the most common, at least in for glory).

Homing attack is tricky, but it's a bad move. learn the situations where people use it and punish it, as it is probably sonics most punishable move. If it hits your shield, you should be able to punish it with bair or fair. If he whiffs and hits the ground, it has a ton of endlag and dash attack, dash grab, or running upsmash can be used. People like to use Homing attack when recovering, or falling, to mix up their momentum and mindgame you. Unless I have a soul read on Sonic, I tend to just wait and see what he does as he's falling, because he has too many ways to mix it up (homing attack, dair, up-b, falling nair etc) and you get punished if you guess wrong. People also like to use homing attack out of down-b, as i mentioned before. it's rare to see homing attack just randomly out of neutral since it can be blocked on reaction, but if you're overly aggressive it may convince them to do this.

In my experience, once Sonic players realize they're gimmicks aren't working, they start going for more grabs, which imo is good because Sonic doesn't get too much mileage off of grabs (except at kill percents). Like I said earlier anytime you can get the opponent to fight your normally instead of relying on B-move gimmicks you're probably doing something right.

Sonic is surprisingly good in the air, your airdodges have to be on point. Sonic will basically always try to bair or upair you if he's in positition to do so because he has no reason not to try. with up-B, sonic can chase even Falco, who prefers the air. Since Sonic's spend a lot of time in the air, they are usually pretty keen to airdodge. Look out for this and bait it and punish it.

Sonic's dash attack is great, but also very punishable. If you get knocked over, Sonic's dash attack will cover missed tech, tech in place, and tech roll back. It will also cover both spotdodge and back roll. But if you shield it, it's massively punishable, just remember that it almost always crosses you up and Sonic will be behind you after the move. Look out for dash attack/dash grab mixups.

Sonic's f-smash has great range and power, and very little endlag (for some reason). be on point with your spacing, especially as you fall. Just like how Falco can space people out with his f-smash, so can Sonic.

Just show patience, pay attention to your opponent's habits, and make sure your punishes are on point and this match up isn't that difficult. the main reason we lose to Sonic is because he's annoying as hell and gimmicky and he gets in our heads and frustrates us. Just stay calm and do what you know you have to do.

 

[gameplayzero]

I like some of your advice, but the match up isn't in falco's favor. Its definitely in favor for sonic, especially with customs. Best thing to do during the homing attack is actually spot dodging it rather than shielding it unless you can perfect shield it every time. Tourney sonics are going to give falco a hell of a time always. They will hardly home attack or dash attack if doesnt work the first time. But since this is supposed to be a general thread focusing on all levels of play its still nice to know how to punish those moves still.

I'd like to see video footage of a "notable" sonic player fighting a falco if anyone can find one.