Meta SSB4 Falco Matchup Discussion 31 - Duck Hunt Duo - What? Is it bird season all of a sudden?

[Ffamran]

Welcome to the Duck Hunt matchup discussion.

All credit goes to Quas-quas for the original images.​

Here's a link to the main post: SSB4 Falco Matchup Discussion - Main Post. This will be more for general matchup discussions like making a suggestion and such. Or, you could head over to the social thread and ask there: Where We Prefer The Air And The Points Don't Matter!. Or PM me if you really have to, but don't make a habit out of it.

Oh, and if you guys and girls want to play each other to have fun or learn about the MU, check out the NNID and FC sharing thread on the Falco boards: http://smashboards.com/threads/anyone-want-to-exchange-nnids-or-friend-codes.386513/.

There's also the regular NNID and FC sharing threads in the Online discussion if you just want to ask anyone to play.

Notice: Some rules, guidelines, and tips. Some of these are a given since you joined any forum.

1. Be respectful of each other. No insults, no trolling, no flaming, or any of that nonsense.
2. Be aware that some of the discussions can and will be old, so don't call out someone for "wrong" data if that post was referring to say, patch 1.0.3 stuff.
3. Be impartial; learn to see things from other sides. So, don't boast about all the advantages. Notice weaknesses and strengths from both parties.
4. Stay on topic.
5. Have fun.

And here is a frame speed ranking of their regular attacks and grabs - no Specials yet, sorry - to clear up on things since sometimes a move may feel slow, but it's actually fast and vice versa. Plus more information doesn't always hurt. Data from Duck Hunt Frame Data by @Spirst and the Complete Hitbox/Frame Data For Every Character thread.

As of patch 1.1.4.

Move Hit Frames||
Jab|2-4, 10-12, 17-21, 22-26, 27-31, 32-36, (infinite), 41-42|4-6, 14-16, 26-29 or infinite
Dash Attack|8-11 or 12-19|10-13 or 14-19
Ftilt|6-8|8-11
Utilt|5-9, 12-16|8-12
Dtilt|7-9|6-7
Side Smash|17-19 or 20-20|12-13, 24-25
Up Smash|7-12, 13-20|7-8, 15-16, 23-24
Down Smash|7-9|7-8, 15-16, 23-24
Nair|3-5, 6-9, 14-17, 21-24|6-8 or 9-37
Fair|10-13, 14-17, 18-21, 22-25, 26-27, 28-29|7-10 or 9-10 or 11-12
Bair|4-5 or 6-12|7-10
Uair|7-11|6-7, 12-13?, 20-21
Dair|16-19 or 20-31|14-14 or 20-20
Grab|8-9|8-9
Dash Grab|10-11|10-11
Pivot Grab|11-12|10-11

 

[gameplayzero]

All I can do is theory craft for this one, but that kind of makes it not super viable. Don't fight enough of him, but I used him seriously for a week. I'll still try anyways. Just use this as a basis! While not as annoying as toon link, our grounded options are rather shut down thanks to his projectiles. While our reflector can and will cut through the can, he still can use other projectiles to punish the lag from the reflector if he is grounded with either another projectile or dash attack. I'm fairly sure our aerial and melee game are much stronger so its the basic "get in and stay in" shenanigans against projectile characters. Though since duck hunt still relies on getting in to kill (unless at stupid high percents where the can can kill), he will still need to challenge you in order to seal the deal. The issue is he isn't just going to rush in without his projectiles. Good duck hunts will manipulate the space and wait for reactions based on how they move the projectiles.

Clay pigeon = a shielded reaction, a roll, or jumping. Problem with shielding is that DH can rush in for a grab, and problem with jumping is that he can fair or dair. I feel like rolling is the best option OR reflecting it from time to time depending on what to do (again theory crafting depending or not on how the clay pigeon reacts on shield. Can't test it right now, but I thought it goes up). If he close enough to you the lag on the pigeon will be enough to for you punish. Roll behind him and hit or if your OOS options are good take it from there. With the lag you can probably just reflect this one if at mid range.

Gunmen= same is clay pigeon options, but they use that as either a get off me options to stop approaches, or coverage to go in. Reflecting this one is silly since duck hunt will be well out of range or can shield once the gunman does shoot. Just analyze the dogs habits and react from there. Dog rushes in? Spot dodge the shot for example and punish him. Duck hunt uses it to gain stage positioning? Just do whatever.

Can= this is the main issue, but an easy one to deal with thanks to our lasers and reflector. If he does it in the air? I'd say reflect it a couple of times just to see what happens. On the ground at mid range you can reflect it to BUT as already mentioned the dog can wait for the bait. If you ARE going to reflect it then space yourself accordingly. I'd say at a longer distance just shoot the can. Pretty sure that stops it in its tracks. Just be warned that depending on how he hits the can the direction will change. Just keep an eye on the can.

Not really a lot of combos duck hunt can do on us since he isn't a combo heavy character. Just don't be above him and watch the for the bairs. Those are his main kill options. IF there is anything I posted that is flat out incorrect or needs fixing please let me know. I'll do proper testing and fix this later for more accurate results. Main thing is that thanks to our slow speed he can camp us out, BUT his kill power is extremely limited. Try to use that to your advantage since falco is no short of kill moves.

 

[WispBae]

Sorry to hop in so late, Doggy main here. @ gameplayzero has a few points correct, though allow me to help you all gain a bit more insight.

Duck Hunt is alright at camping, but lots of his damage and neutral games revolves around baiting opponents, and while he is not a huge combo machine, the few combos he does have are very good at keeping people out and racking up easy damage at the low percents.

Doggy's largest weakness is pressure, and lots of it. It's not easy to escape combos with doggy, since his fastest options are Nair (which has lots of endlag, as well as a long sour spot) and Trick Shot (or Can, which means Doggy will take 8% for a chance to escape the combo, while the opponent takes 10%.

Clay pigeon = a shielded reaction, a roll, or jumping. Problem with shielding is that DH can rush in for a grab, and problem with jumping is that he can fair or dair. I feel like rolling is the best option OR reflecting it from time to time depending on what to do (again theory crafting depending or not on how the clay pigeon reacts on shield. Can't test it right now, but I thought it goes up). If he close enough to you the lag on the pigeon will be enough to for you punish. Roll behind him and hit or if your OOS options are good take it from there. With the lag you can probably just reflect this one if at mid range.

The Clay Pigeon has two hitboxes, so while it easy easy to punish the endlag if you avoid it, be careful when trying to reflect it, as most characters will be hit if the Clay is shot before it hits the reflector, expanding it's hitboxes and pretty much negating the point of trying to reflect it. Against a Clay happy Doggy, jumping and fastfalling, then your punish of choice (I'd go for a grab or uncharged smash).

Gunmen= same is clay pigeon options, but they use that as either a get off me options to stop approaches, or coverage to go in. Reflecting this one is silly since duck hunt will be well out of range or can shield once the gunman does shoot. Just analyze the dogs habits and react from there. Dog rushes in? Spot dodge the shot for example and punish him. Duck hunt uses it to gain stage positioning? Just do whatever.

Gunmen is actually not a "get off me" option, as it has a delayed start, as well as a way to stop it (attacking the gunmen, they all have 5% health). The only way it could be a way to reduce pressure is if the opponent were to get scared and back away. Reflecting theses shots are your best bet, if doggy is being predictable, though try not to shield or dodge, as most doggys send out gunmen to force bad options on their foes, and get easy grabs or string into a Fair. Also keep in mind each gunmen has a different timing, distance and damage. I won't go into specifics because there are alot, but the two most dramatic gunmen are the tallest one (lanky cowboy in white) and the orange coat one. The the tall one takes the longest to fire, but has the longest range (a bit more than half of FD), while the the orange coated shoots the fastest, (almost immediately). If you want to learn more about Gunmen, you can check my small guide here!

Can= this is the main issue, but an easy one to deal with thanks to our lasers and reflector. If he does it in the air? I'd say reflect it a couple of times just to see what happens. On the ground at mid range you can reflect it to BUT as already mentioned the dog can wait for the bait. If you ARE going to reflect it then space yourself accordingly. I'd say at a longer distance just shoot the can. Pretty sure that stops it in its tracks. Just be warned that depending on how he hits the can the direction will change. Just keep an eye on the can.

I'm gonna let you Falco mains on a lil secret, but you can't tell ANYONE! Ok? Cuz if the doggy boards found out I told you guys, they'd kill me.

...Falco is one of the few characters that can completely disable Trick Shot from working (at least for a small while). Similar to how Villager can steal a Gyro from rob and eliminate is Down B completely, refelcting the can while it is on the ground, not bouncing makes it so doggy can't control the can until it blows up on it's own (around 10-15 seconds). Palutena can do it as well, though it is a bit easier with her. As for dealing with other cans, you can also just dash attack it away, jump over it, or roll around it. Trick Shot cannot turn around without an attack from either opponent, so once you are past it, you are free from it until a new one appears. Just be careful about trying to attack it away, as smarter doggies will bounce it over their opponents heads and punish the attempt. Also be careful once it's on stage, it gives doggy a huge chunk of stage control since he can bounce it while doing anything (except when his shield is broken).

...I'll expect my treats in the mail and belly rubs soon for delving the hidden can knowledge. If you'd like more info about how can works, @DunnoBro is the man to ask.

Not really a lot of combos duck hunt can do on us since he isn't a combo heavy character. Just don't be above him and watch the for the bairs. Those are his main kill options. IF there is anything I posted that is flat out incorrect or needs fixing please let me know. I'll do proper testing and fix this later for more accurate results. Main thing is that thanks to our slow speed he can camp us out, BUT his kill power is extremely limited. Try to use that to your advantage since falco is no short of kill moves.

Yup, Bair, Uair and Can are the safest options, due to his Smashes have the "mercy nudge" (not all hits will connect, the last shot is the main KO hit). Although Up-Smash connects the most consistently, in my experience. Just keep the pressure on doggy, don't let him set up, and abuse his poor offstage game (without customs).

Hope this helps =]

TLDR: Doggy dislikes pressure and being off stage, abuse that. If he sets up, prepare for hell.

 

[gameplayzero]

Sorry to hop in so late, Doggy main here. @ gameplayzero has a few points correct, though allow me to help you all gain a bit more insight.

Duck Hunt is alright at camping, but lots of his damage and neutral games revolves around baiting opponents, and while he is not a huge combo machine, the few combos he does have are very good at keeping people out and racking up easy damage at the low percents.

Doggy's largest weakness is pressure, and lots of it. It's not easy to escape combos with doggy, since his fastest options are Nair (which has lots of endlag, as well as a long sour spot) and Trick Shot (or Can, which means Doggy will take 8% for a chance to escape the combo, while the opponent takes 10%.



The Clay Pigeon has two hitboxes, so while it easy easy to punish the endlag if you avoid it, be careful when trying to reflect it, as most characters will be hit if the Clay is shot before it hits the reflector, expanding it's hitboxes and pretty much negating the point of trying to reflect it. Against a Clay happy Doggy, jumping and fastfalling, then your punish of choice (I'd go for a grab or uncharged smash).



Gunmen is actually not a "get off me" option, as it has a delayed start, as well as a way to stop it (attacking the gunmen, they all have 5% health). The only way it could be a way to reduce pressure is if the opponent were to get scared and back away. Reflecting theses shots are your best bet, if doggy is being predictable, though try not to shield or dodge, as most doggys send out gunmen to force bad options on their foes, and get easy grabs or string into a Fair. Also keep in mind each gunmen has a different timing, distance and damage. I won't go into specifics because there are alot, but the two most dramatic gunmen are the tallest one (lanky cowboy in white) and the orange coat one. The the tall one takes the longest to fire, but has the longest range (a bit more than half of FD), while the the orange coated shoots the fastest, (almost immediately). If you want to learn more about Gunmen, you can check my small guide here!



I'm gonna let you Falco mains on a lil secret, but you can't tell ANYONE! Ok? Cuz if the doggy boards found out I told you guys, they'd kill me.

...Falco is one of the few characters that can completely disable Trick Shot from working (at least for a small while). Similar to how Villager can steal a Gyro from rob and eliminate is Down B completely, refelcting the can while it is on the ground, not bouncing makes it so doggy can't control the can until it blows up on it's own (around 10-15 seconds). Palutena can do it as well, though it is a bit easier with her. As for dealing with other cans, you can also just dash attack it away, jump over it, or roll around it. Trick Shot cannot turn around without an attack from either opponent, so once you are past it, you are free from it until a new one appears. Just be careful about trying to attack it away, as smarter doggies will bounce it over their opponents heads and punish the attempt. Also be careful once it's on stage, it gives doggy a huge chunk of stage control since he can bounce it while doing anything (except when his shield is broken).

...I'll expect my treats in the mail and belly rubs soon for delving the hidden can knowledge. If you'd like more info about how can works, @DunnoBro is the man to ask.



Yup, Bair, Uair and Can are the safest options, due to his Smashes have the "mercy nudge" (not all hits will connect, the last shot is the main KO hit). Although Up-Smash connects the most consistently, in my experience. Just keep the pressure on doggy, don't let him set up, and abuse his poor offstage game (without customs).

Hope this helps =]

TLDR: Doggy dislikes pressure and being off stage, abuse that. If he sets up, prepare for hell.

Thank you for joining the thread and actually giving insight on my theory crafting lol. Oh by "get off me option" I meant as if someone was at a decent distance and as a rush down character they charge at you. Not as an "in my face" get off me option. Probably should have chose a better word for it, but obviously you are correct.

Everything said here is absolutely perfect since I missed some huge pieces of info such as just stoping the gunman in the first place or touching on DH's terrible recovery. Thank you again for joining the boards to provide us with some knowledge on a not so common match up.

don't worry I won't tell anyone else of the trick shot secret. I give A class belly rubs so I think that will make up for it. Just ask my dog.

 

[Ffamran]

I think Falco can play hot potato with Can with Ftilt. That or Ganondorf while Ike can't funny enough. If he lands a Ftilt, I think it does way too much damage or something and the Can explodes while Side Smash is already out of the question.

I was going to ask about DunnoBro if he fought GimR's Falco and could share his thoughts on this MU. Duck Hunt's Bair is either really disjointed or the Duck's small so it looks like there's a ton of range when it's just the Duck reaching out. Falco's main strength here is that even though he's light, he can take a beating because of his fast fall. The other strength would be his damage and knockback which (knockback) is enhanced by rage. Main issues would be once again, mobility. Duck Hunt is fast which makes sense since it's a dog running around - I have not seen a healthy dog run slowly ever in my life. So, that means Falco can't play catch with Duck Hunt like Greninja and Fox can, but he makes it up for punishing hard.

It's one of those matchups again like fighting again other zoners where Falco needs to take it slow and think about what he's going to do. At the same time, Duck Hunt needs to think about everything which makes sense since Duck Hunt can trap people well and setup wacky traps. So, neither can go ham on the other which would lead to Duck Hunt trading with hits they don't want and with Falco taking damage he shouldn't. Speaking of which, yes, Falco can take damage, but he should avoid taking unnecessary damage like doing a risky move and eating a Bair from Duck Hunt at kill percent. Falco is going to take damage in this matchup as he will against Villager, Olimar, Mega Man, the Links, and more, but that doesn't mean it's time to panic ever. Never panic reflect as Duck Hunt can bait those and this applies to all MUs.

Off stage, I'm not really sure what Duck Hunt really does, but I know Can dropped off stage means Falco can get screwed if he recovers too close to the ledge and too predictably. Gunmen I think can levitate, so Duck Hunt can drop a Gunman in midair and Falco has to deal with either going above or below. Here's the thing, Falco can always cover his recovery with Reflector to punish a fishy Can or Blaster if he knows and can time it well - Blaster can travel along the floor if you time it right.

For Falco, Duck Hunt not having a hitbox on their default recovery means Falco should abuse that to no end. Fair gimp, Bair kill or stage spike, Nair gimp, Uair frame trap to Bair, Falco Phantasm soft spike, or Dair spike. Neither character should be afraid of going off-stage or doing something to the other off-stage, especially since Duck Hunt doesn't have to do anything directly and if they do, it could be a trap and Duck Hunt can drop down and edgeguard.

The thing is that while off-stage, neither characters are slouches. There is never a reason to be behind them, especially Falco where you're asking for punishment. Both can spike, both can and will kill you if you mess up off-stage, and both can cover their recovery well.

Falco wants to be up close as that's where he shines; his design feels like he's meant to be an anti-zoner more than a zoner like in Brawl or Melee. Being within range of Falco means he can abuse his fast and hard hitting attacks. At long range, he can't really do much other than reflect, sneak in a laser, and figure out a way to approach since he's not fast horizontally. Duck Hunt on the other hand would probably want to stay at mid to long range. Mid range so they can close the distance after a trap and long range to setup traps, rack up damage, and find an opening. Duck Hunt has no reason to approach in this game since Falco can't do much and he can't really force approaches. Just my thoughts on (for me) this rare MU.

 

[theONEjanitor]

This is a matchup I don't understand at all. it seems like duck hunt can put up a wall that falco just does not have the tools to deal with. I think falco suffers against these zone/wall type characters, but especially DH because reflector doesn't actually cause the projectiles to threaten duck hunt because of their weird trajectories. Like most gimmicky pressure characters, I find myself just shielding the whole time, but in this case it seems like there's no way to get in and nothing that is particurlarly punishable. not sure though, obviously I need more practice