Meta SSB4 Falco Matchup Discussion 26 - Villager - Flying Home

[Ffamran]

Welcome to the Villager matchup discussion.

All credit goes to Quas-quas for the original images.​

Here's a link to the main post: SSB4 Falco Matchup Discussion - Main Post. This will be more for general matchup discussions like making a suggestion and such. Or, you could head over to the social thread and ask there: Where We Prefer The Air And The Points Don't Matter!. Or PM me if you really have to, but don't make a habit out of it.

Oh, and if you guys and girls want to play each other to have fun or learn about the MU, check out the NNID and FC sharing thread on the Falco boards: http://smashboards.com/threads/anyone-want-to-exchange-nnids-or-friend-codes.386513/.

There's also the regular NNID and FC sharing threads in the Online discussion if you just want to ask anyone to play.

Notice: Some rules, guidelines, and tips. Some of these are a given since you joined any forum.

1. Be respectful of each other. No insults, no trolling, no flaming, or any of that nonsense.
2. Be aware that some of the discussions can and will be old, so don't call out someone for "wrong" data if that post was referring to say, patch 1.0.3 stuff.
3. Be impartial; learn to see things from other sides. So, don't boast about all the advantages. Notice weaknesses and strengths from both parties.
4. Stay on topic.
5. Have fun.

And here is a frame speed ranking of their regular attacks and grabs - no Specials yet, sorry - to clear up on things since sometimes a move may feel slow, but it's actually fast and vice versa. Plus more information doesn't always hurt. Data from Blathers' Blathers: Villager Hitbox / Frame Date and Other Research by @ Indigo Jeans and the Complete Hitbox/Frame Data For Every Character threads.

As of patch 1.1.4.

Move Hit Frames||
Jab|2-4, 10-12, 17-21, 22-26, 27-31, 32-36, (infinite), 41-42|3-4, 9-10, (infinite)
Dash Attack|8-11 or 12-19|14-??
Ftilt|6-8|8-11
Utilt|5-9, 12-16|7-20, 24-27
Dtilt|7-9|9-10
Side Smash|17-19 or 20-20|25-FOREVER
Up Smash|7-12, 13-20|12-13, 17-18, 21-22, 25-26, 29-30, 33-34
Down Smash|7-9|8-10
Nair|3-5, 6-9, 14-17, 21-24|3-10, 11-23
Fair|10-13, 14-17, 18-21, 22-25, 26-27, 28-29|10-??
Bair|4-5 or 6-12|13-??
Uair|7-11|6-31
Dair|16-19 or 20-31|8-31
Grab|8-9|15-16
Dash Grab|10-11|16-17
Pivot Grab|11-12|17-18

 

[Antonykun]

ah the nice thing about this MU is that my local sparring partner is a Falco main so I can definitely say a few things.

• Villager can pocket stray blaster shots and reflected Lloyds/Timber
• Villager n-air opens up Falco a lot solely from it's fast lingering nature
• Falco is almost Little Mac when recovery due to Villager's N-air and (potentially) Spiking D-air
• Villager's jabs are amazing tool overall

• Falco borders on impossible to wall out because of his reflector and high jump + fast fall combo
• Falco has over all faster frame data and more reliable kill moves
• Villager is so free offstage because of Falco's amazing edgeguarding coupled with Balloon Trip's lack of hitboxes

 

[Ffamran]

Is there ever a reason Villager should pocket Fox and Falco's lasers? I could see Fox's Charge bolt and Falco's Explosive... bolt-thing pocketed, but Fox's default and Impact and Falco's default and Burst lasers aren't really that great. Plus, they can always use their Blaster unlike say, Diddy who doesn't get to use his Banana Peel for a couple of seconds.

 

[Antonykun]

Is there ever a reason Villager should pocket Fox and Falco's lasers? I could see Fox's Charge bolt and Falco's Explosive... bolt-thing pocketed, but Fox's default and Impact and Falco's default and Burst lasers aren't really that great. Plus, they can always use their Blaster unlike say, Diddy who doesn't get to use his Banana Peel for a couple of seconds.

Pocketed base Falco blaster is essentially a super F-air that can be done on the ground so yes it is worth it

 

[Ffamran]

Pocketed base Falco blaster is essentially a super F-air that can be done on the ground so yes it is worth it

But if Falco's using Burst Blaster, then it's probably not worth it. Wait, can Villager short hop double "laser" with a pocketed Falco's default Blaster laser and Fox's Impact Blaster laser? Or even with Explosive Blaster and Charge Blaster?

 

[Antonykun]

But if Falco's using Burst Blaster, then it's probably not worth it. Wait, can Villager short hop double "laser" with a pocketed Falco's default Blaster laser and Fox's Impact Blaster laser? Or even with Explosive Blaster and Charge Blaster?

do you mean Slingshot then release the laser? I think it should work as I never tried it and yeah I doubt burst blaster will be any good in the pocket .

(as an aside I'm kinda curious of Villager + Charge blaster fox in teams)

Oh since we're talking about customs

I would bring
Pocket (If Falco is not running Burst Blaster)/ Garden (If he is) - basic "I don't need to pocket might as well run the 'shoryuken'"
Lloyd Rocket - eats all variants of Lasers
Extreme Balloon Trip - The one true Up-B
Timber - This might be because my friend is a textbook stone wall but I am always trying to approach Falco and because he is so free offstage I never need to use TC ledge set ups

 

[Ffamran]

do you mean Slingshot then release the laser? I think it should work as I never tried it and yeah I doubt burst blaster will be any good in the pocket .

(as an aside I'm kinda curious of Villager + Charge blaster fox in teams)

Either or, so Slingshot then Pocket or Pocket then Slingshot.

Extreme Balloon Trip - The one true Up-B

But don't you remember what Liquid did? Falco don't care about no Extreme Balloon Trip.

Falco's got new tech against Villager's Explosive Balloon, yo! It's called: get bodied to win.

Spoiler

Liquid does a Bair before Ant touches the ledge, destroys all the balloons and hits Villager all at the same time.

 

[Sonsa]

Hm... Falco's reflector is pretty good, but Ive only ever baited and punished it. Falco's up-b start up is also fun to punish.
I dunno, I love playing Falco along with Villager, but I just haven't played this matchup that much.

Any Villagers or Falcos want to fight so we can understand this more? I think my Falco is pretty good, but my Villager potentially my best character and people say I'm pretty good so...hopefully I can be helpful.

 

[Antonykun]

Either or, so Slingshot then Pocket or Pocket then Slingshot.


But don't you remember what Liquid did? Falco don't care about no Extreme Balloon Trip.

At least e had to think about getting bodied XD
regular Balloon Trip is just asking to get b-aired

Hm... Falco's reflector is pretty good, but Ive only ever baited and punished it. Falco's up-b start up is also fun to punish.
I dunno, I love playing Falco along with Villager, but I just haven't played this matchup that much.

Any Villagers or Falcos want to fight so we can understand this more? I think my Falco is pretty good, but my Villager potentially my best character and people say I'm pretty good so...hopefully I can be helpful.

You play Falco?
huh.

 

[Sonsa]

You play Falco?
huh.

Yeah, kinda a secondary I guess. His spike, bair, up-air, it's all so satisfying.

Sorry for the bad quality, but you should get the idea.
Without much experience, I would try never to recover high on Falco as his spike, up-air, b-air, and even f-air could just kill ya. Falco's great in the air, I'd try not to challenge him there too much, though slingshots should be used to pressure...
Coming back to the stage against Falco as Villager must definitely be a struggle... But likewise the other way around! As long as Falco is lower then ledge level. Otherwise he can just side-b and...it's punishable, sure, but Villager can be a lil slow sometimes so he may get away with it scott free more often than not.

 

[Indigo Jeans]

Yo @ Ffamran my thread actually does have frame data for FSmash, FAir, etc. and so did mastercore as of patch v1.0.3 I think. Just a heads up

Anyway I will post more detailed thoughts on the MU in a bit

 

[Sonsa]

Alright, got some more experience, learned some new things,
So edgeguarding and gimping Falco isn't so hard really. Smacking him during his Up-B with some turnips will usually get ya the stock. His Phantom...thing, the side-b, is still really good and can be trouble, but launching a gyroid off the ledge can help them recover lower. They can recover high, sure, if you don't have time to shoot slingshots.

Falco's reflector is good, but still super baitable. Keep launching gyroids and jumping over to punish with a down-air. Pocket your own trees. A smart Falco will catch on to this and try something else, but yknow, don't fear reflector that much. It usually helps Villager out.

Falco forces Villager to approach with lazers pretty much. They aren't really worth pocketing, fired back they do like 6% and flinch for half a second. Try hurling this up close and Falco will hit you with an attack before your short pocket endlag is done.

I'd still like some more experience, but for now... I think Villager has an easier time?

 

[NotAnAdmin]

All these people on the Falco board? This has to be a some kind of setup!

Anyways, @ Antonykun is spot on.
Basically Villager wants to keep long range pressure anyway he can, Falco has to find a way to get closer.
He has his high jump to inch his way in but it's still a hard task, once he can manage to get close he can really rack up damage. So long as Falco can stay close he can space Villager out easily with tilts and fsmash.
Getting hit off stage as Falco is pretty much a stock loss for him. Villager can follow Falco to the deepest depths and still recover.

 

[Tinkerer]

I find this a surprisingly tough match-up as a Villager player - much, much more so than Fox. The way the reflector pushes back your projectiles means you don't have the usual tools of baiting reflects and pocketing unless you're very far away, because they'll reach you that much sooner. The hitbox of the reflector itself then limits the Villager to pretty much only approach with a Dair, which is fairly easy to counter. He has the same issues Palutena creates for Villager in that way, which is a hard match-up too. He can also go after Villager off-stage fairly well with his good aerials, and Villager's lack of being able to act out of recovery. The reverse also seems true, though: Falco's recovery is damn easy to gimp and Villager will always make it back. I'd put this matchup slightly in Falco's favour or just 50/50.

And yes, pocketing the lasers seems very useful - it's just close to being free damage.

 

[speedguy20]

Yeah, kinda a secondary I guess. His spike, bair, up-air, it's all so satisfying.

Sorry for the bad quality, but you should get the idea.

I'm sorry you rekt than Falcon so hard.

I find this a surprisingly tough match-up as a Villager player - much, much more so than Fox. The way the reflector pushes back your projectiles means you don't have the usual tools of baiting reflects and pocketing unless you're very far away, because they'll reach you that much sooner. The hitbox of the reflector itself then limits the Villager to pretty much only approach with a Dair, which is fairly easy to counter. He has the same issues Palutena creates for Villager in that way, which is a hard match-up too. He can also go after Villager off-stage fairly well with his good aerials, and Villager's lack of being able to act out of recovery. The reverse also seems true, though: Falco's recovery is damn easy to gimp and Villager will always make it back. I'd put this matchup slightly in Falco's favour or just 50/50.

And yes, pocketing the lasers seems very useful - it's just close to being free damage.

But you have to keep in mind you can bait out a shine a punish that heavily, and keep constant pressure with pocketed items and all your projectiles. I'd think this match up is really a 60/40 in Villager's favour.

 

[Gamegenie222]

OH God this MU I play alot. I have to get Skillager in here. I'll post about my thoughts later.


@ CodyOdyO

 

[Antonykun]

OH God this MU I play alot. I have to get Skillager in here. I'll post about my thoughts later.


@ CodyOdyO

dayum you train with Skillager Im jelly

 

[Ffamran]

dayum you train with Skillager Im jelly

Links to Gamegenie222 and Skillager's fights: https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=sGFgpgCCBu8#t=206.

And this one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?featu...UUQ12FfE7lkVUfA6iU-48NYA&v=UN4a3LM8-1s#t=1858.

 

[Gamegenie222]

dayum you train with Skillager Im jelly

More like compete with but yeah. I make him pretty salt. Also he's gonna post in here soon so if you wanna see popcorn and salt wait and enjoy the show cause we argue about this MU til the cow comes home.

The MU is pretty much alot of patience, shielding, punishment and neutral. Falco can make Villagers main gameplan null and void at times cause of reflector and forces Villager to be creative and fight Falco up close which is not Villager strong suit so he/she has to set up a rocket then approach but Falco can punish alot of stuff Villager does like if Villager dair's his shield you can usually get a down smash when he lands(IDK if the turnip LVL matters on the safety of the move) and if Villager lands in front of Falco and he power shields we can get a down tilt into a juggle setup or a combo if we are fast enough and/or your at the right percent but if not or if we whiff a uair or try to go for a air to air chase we can eat a dair to the dome and Falco is slow in the air so it gonna be tough for him but this can be advantage if you can conserve your jump and punish the villager when he dairs and fair/bair him/her if your quick enough. If you use the reflector incorrectly against a reflector and the villager baits it you will be punished and on top of that villager can pocket the reflected rocket and get a 2 for 1 special move against you which you have to deal with. As for slingshot you have to patient and know the ranges of it as well and since Villager loves to use it and will chip you to death with it and specially at the ledge a.k.a the treehouse of horror and another thing if you time your reflector use when a rocket is out and when Villager uses a slingshot you can reflect both and both projectiles will hit villager in the face.

As for the offstage games as Falco for us and when we are on the receiving end we can fair you but it's tricky cause you can summon a rocket and slingshot to try to make us honest but we can reflector and say no. If you still on set with poking a child to death with your beak if you predict a summon of rocket we can conserve our jumps and go deep and carefully place a fair and hit villager but this is ballsy just like trying to spike villager with your dair lmao. For on the receiving offstage as falco this is not fun and Villager can setup the treehouse of horror and go deep as well as us or go deeper offstage and carry us off to the abyss and have coverage for days, slingshot and nair plane gimp us, setting rocket if we go high and using the dash attack for low recovery snipes, planting the tree like Johnny Appleseed and using the tree for recovering below and along with the bowling ball and dair spikes along with stage spikes and since Falco doesn't have a hitbox on the latter half of his move you can just f tilt or use the axe or time the growing of the tree so if we land onstage and is around the area of it we get hit without fear of getting hit by phantasm where we can possibly convert into a juggle/kill move at higher percent . Also if you have the tree out you can use to block lasers and use the axe in your upclose game and as a OOS punishment tool if we do something very unsafe like a getup attack which I feel Villagers should do more actually. If we are offstage make sure we are dead otherwise we are gonna annoy the crap outta you like you do us.

As for stages take villager to Delfino and Castle Siege for your CP's and IDK about Skyloft much to say on it along with Kongo Jungle 64 if it's legal. Starters IDK I personally stick to BF, and Smashville but I can see FD being alright along with Lylat and Town and City but I love platforms and hate FD so yeah.

We force Villager to be creative, play alot of neutral and we can play lame if need be cause of reflector but if we are offstage we should be dead if the Villager is on point. Just play smart, don't be scared and capitalize on your punishment and Falco can win.

For me personally I feel like Falco/Villager MU is even 50/50 mainly because of the offstage game Villager has and the threat of dying early by other stuff on top of that but that's just me despite the advantages we have.

 

[CodyOdyO]

MAN THIS MATCHUP SUCKS FOR VILLAGER. IT'S EASILY MY LEAST FAVORITE MATCHUP.

So, lets start off with some background information. Gamegenie right 'ere and I have been dealing with the Flaco/Villager matchup since day one of the Wii U release at a local 80-man tourney. Him and I are two of the best players in Nebraska (whoopdee freakin' doo, it's Nebraska), and we've made our opinions known across the entire local scene.

Now, onto why I think this matchup is at least 60/40 in Flaco the Flappy Bird's favor. Flaco the Flappy Bird easily has the best reflector in the game. I don't say that because of it's longevity, or any of that. If you think of it that way than of course it isn't, but it comes out at frame 5 iirc, and lingers beyond all belief. It also has a hitbox, and is incredibly disjointed, so if you're trying to get creative with your Lloid approaches you're just gonna eat your Lloid, along with the reflector, along with potentially eating a fair/bair. It mitigates your Lloid. You just got 3-hit comboed. Two of the moves being your own.

Villager has too many projectiles that form the character's neutral, so you have to entirely change your play style.

Flaco the Flappy Bird's reflector takes care of...

fair,
bair,
dash attack,
side smash,
any pocketed move (most likely your own),
down b,
and side b.

This list is huge. So suddenly you have to be increasingly more mindful around how you attempt to space Flaco the Flappy Bird, because that's all you can do. You can only attempt to space him, because his close-combat game absolutely craps on Villager's. Dsmash punishes aerial attempts, his jab comes out frame 2, and bair comes out frame 3 (iirc), and will outspace our nair. Flaco is also FASTER than Villager on the ground. Villager has one of the slowest running speeds in the game, and since Flaco the Flappy Bird can space out your aerial approaches, and make approaching from the air ridiculously unsafe he'll also be able to pressure you with his ground-based approaches. Good luck trying to shield grab any approaches with that atrocious frame 15 grab. Only oos option is nair (usually always is though).

If Flaco the Flappy Bird plays smart, and remains dominate on the ground there's no reason you'll have to worry about offstage game, because literally anything Villager tries to do to approach you will get eaten by reflector, or your faster close-range moves. If by some chance you gain the advantage on Flaco the Flappy Bird at that point you can pressure him with maybe fairs, but gimping him is also really tricky due to his ability to act out of side b, he covers great horizontal ground, and a solid vertical angle too (godly Flappy Bird 2nd jumps).


So no matter what the Grimiest of Genies thinks about the Flaco/Villager matchup I will always believe this to be in Flaco the Flappy Bird's favor. Maybe he'd be more understanding if he was on the receiving end of this matchup.

My profile pic related to Genie: It's him as the Deku Princess in a bottle (Genie in a bottle, HAR HAR HAR).

 

[Sonsa]

Huh, this MU is a lot more controversial than I'd guess.
Sure Falco's reflector is good, but as Villager the point is to bait it, not hurl gyroids and hope he gets hit. In this MU you can't fear the reflector and just not use your projectile moves, bait reflector, slingshot appropriately, you need to do these to pressure Falco, without pressuring him, you're just opening yourself up to taking plenty of damage. Falco could dominate the ground if you don't demand any stage control and keep him busy with gyroids. Any gyroid thrown you should prepare to pocket or already be on your way for a down-air punish.

Falco up close doesnt destroy Villager, Villager's jab does its job too, his tilts are great and demands space, up-tilt beats any of Falco's landing options (fair, nair, dair, up-b, anything really) plus Villager wins a stock edgeguarding more often than not. I wouldn't say Villager is that disadvantaged. Falco is great but Villager definitely has to tools to deal without getting shut down in any way.

Good input, not trying to be mean, but I do think it's a little exaggerated, this is by no means Villager's worst MU. I can't see it beyond 45:55 to Villager.

 

[Gamegenie222]

LMAO Flappy bird Falco is a pheasant get it right and I wish Bair was 3 frames lmao its 4 frames basic frame data is up in the main post. And screw receiving end try being on the receiving end of getting gimped from U.S.A all the way to China against a character who is pretty much the terminator in terms of offstage game on both ends. Villager is the terminator brah if you ain't dead your coming back.

Also if Villager decides to side b hold to recover to the stage for some strange reason Falco can reflect the rocket and send Villager to the blast zone or close to it (IDK if Villager can get off the rocket if this happens though).

 

[Alby]

I sense some salt...

I definitely agree that the reflector is the key aspect of this MU. If you are spacing properly and using the reflector efficiently, you will frustrate the hell out of the Villager and force them to approach in unsafe ways, and Falco should win in close quarters.

However, if you are overusing the reflector, or not spacing it properly, it's very punishable, and I think good Villagers will exploit this and bait it out. If Villager can manage to navigate around the reflector on stage, they'll have the advantage by throwing Falco off stage where reflector becomes much less safe, and both side-b and up-b have punishable startups and easy-to-predict trajectories.

 

[Sonsa]

LMAO Flappy bird Falco is a pheasant get it right and I wish Bair was 3 frames lmao its 4 frames basic frame data is up in the main post. And screw receiving end try being on the receiving end of getting gimped from U.S.A all the way to China against a character who is pretty much the terminator in terms of offstage game on both ends. Villager is the terminator brah if you ain't dead your coming back.

Also if Villager decides to side b hold to recover to the stage for some strange reason Falco can reflect the rocket and send Villager to the blast zone or close to it (IDK if Villager can get off the rocket if this happens though).

Villager can get off the rocket anytime he wants, even before being reflected. Might take some damage, but if ya live ya live.

Can get off after being relected too and often head toward the ledge. Falco's reflector doesn't speed Villager up like Ness's or anything so while Falco is in reflector endlag Villager could probably drift toward the ledge safely. Gatta have good timing though.

This being said reflecting a ridden gyroid is totally the way to go, I would never go for this option as Villager. Just recover low with some quick balloons, be tricky with the speed if ya predict a back-air or somethin. Even recover to the other side, sometimes Falco isn't quick enough to catch you if you have a lil head start.

 

[Gamegenie222]

Hmm ok nice to know about that little tidbit then regarding the rocket if ridden and being reflected. Also I don't see 6-4 on either parties atm either I can see 5-5 or slight advantage to one or the other.

 

[Sonsa]

Hmm ok nice to know about that little tidbit then regarding the rocket if ridden and being reflected. Also I don't see 6-4 on either parties atm either I can see 5-5 or slight advantage to one or the other.

Same at the moment. Both have some great tools, but both can manage each other fine and take advantage of each other's weaknesses quite well. If you're down I'd love to play some matches with ya to understand and research the MU more.

 

[Gamegenie222]

Same at the moment. Both have some great tools, but both can manage each other fine and take advantage of each other's weaknesses quite well. If you're down I'd love to play some matches with ya to understand and research the MU more.

I be down later in the week. Also not alot of people play this MU either cause Falco is a uncommon character while Villager is on top of that.

 

[CodyOdyO]

Huh, this MU is a lot more controversial than I'd guess.
Sure Falco's reflector is good, but as Villager the point is to bait it, not hurl gyroids and hope he gets hit. In this MU you can't fear the reflector and just not use your projectile moves, bait reflector, slingshot appropriately, you need to do these to pressure Falco, without pressuring him, you're just opening yourself up to taking plenty of damage. Falco could dominate the ground if you don't demand any stage control and keep him busy with gyroids. Any gyroid thrown you should prepare to pocket or already be on your way for a down-air punish.

Falco up close doesnt destroy Villager, Villager's jab does its job too, his tilts are great and demands space, up-tilt beats any of Falco's landing options (fair, nair, dair, up-b, anything really) plus Villager wins a stock edgeguarding more often than not. I wouldn't say Villager is that disadvantaged. Falco is great but Villager definitely has to tools to deal without getting shut down in any way.

Good input, not trying to be mean, but I do think it's a little exaggerated, this is by no means Villager's worst MU. I can't see it beyond 45:55 to Villager.

Of course you can bait it, but if the matchup is so demanding to where you have to seriously change the entire way you play a character in favor of a more campy play style than I do find the matchup to not be in Villager's favor. Falco also has the ability to bait pockets out of you, and if you take the bait you've missed any possible punish you could've had. I'm very aware of what to do in this matchup, and of course I'm gonna be salty about the specific matchup if it means that I have to change my entire game plan in favor of a more campy style. That isn't how I like to play.

Keep him busy with Lloids? Lloids by themselves are incredibly overrated, and can easily be perfect shielded which cause no gain in Villager's stage control. If somebody decides to not respect Lloids, and just goes in, and continues to put Villager under pressure they're going to dominate the ground game. Especially if they're mindful of tilts, and jab.

The tilts don't do the job. Falco can shield grab any of those options with ease, and in a sense of Falco's vs. Villager's jab than Falco's is more superior due to it having an actual finisher, and the fact it comes out faster (albeit 1 frame). With Falco's frame data simply being better than Villager's in those types of situations Falco should definitely have the upper hand.

And big whoop if you pocket a Lloid, or a blaster? Blaster does measly damage, and is essentially a waste of the time, and effort it took to get the blaster (I know this from experience), and Lloids are so telegraphed it can just be reflected back again. There's no way out of the incredible value that Falco gains from the reflector, and his incredible ground control over Villager.

Out of every matchup that I've played this is definitely the one I've struggled the most with, so as of my experience (I've been to multiple tournaments across the Midwest) I do believe this is Villager's worst matchup. Of course it's all personal opinion and subjective, but I do feel my points are valid.

 

[Sonsa]

Of course you can bait it, but if the matchup is so demanding to where you have to seriously change the entire way you play a character in favor of a more campy play style than I do find the matchup to not be in Villager's favor. Falco also has the ability to bait pockets out of you, and if you take the bait you've missed any possible punish you could've had. I'm very aware of what to do in this matchup, and of course I'm gonna be salty about the specific matchup if it means that I have to change my entire game plan in favor of a more campy style. That isn't how I like to play.

Keep him busy with Lloids? Lloids by themselves are incredibly overrated, and can easily be perfect shielded which cause no gain in Villager's stage control. If somebody decides to not respect Lloids, and just goes in, and continues to put Villager under pressure they're going to dominate the ground game. Especially if they're mindful of tilts, and jab.

The tilts don't do the job. Falco can shield grab any of those options with ease, and in a sense of Falco's vs. Villager's jab than Falco's is more superior due to it having an actual finisher, and the fact it comes out faster (albeit 1 frame). With Falco's frame data simply being better than Villager's in those types of situations Falco should definitely have the upper hand.

And big whoop if you pocket a Lloid, or a blaster? Blaster does measly damage, and is essentially a waste of the time, and effort it took to get the blaster (I know this from experience), and Lloids are so telegraphed it can just be reflected back again. There's no way out of the incredible value that Falco gains from the reflector, and his incredible ground control over Villager.

Out of every matchup that I've played this is definitely the one I've struggled the most with, so as of my experience (I've been to multiple tournaments across the Midwest) I do believe this is Villager's worst matchup. Of course it's all personal opinion and subjective, but I do feel my points are valid.

A character adapting to a new playstyle is not instantly disadvantaged, and even then, Villager is still covering approaches with gyroids and pushing his opponent around while keeping around mid-range. And campy? I play a pretty aggressive Villager and it does me really well against any Falco I've fought. If you try to camp you won't be punishing Falco's reflector and just dodging your own attacks or getting lazers. Campy is no way to go against Falco.

He may be able to bait pockets, but his reflector endlag will not allow him to punish...almost every time? Yeah, pretty much. You might land a lazer if you baited far enough?

Gyroids can cover a large portion or ground or air and halt approaches, sure they can perfect shield, but while an opponent is busy with that Villager can gain a more prefferable space or even grow a tree. Giving him access to the axe or mindgaming well enough to pocket a one-hit KO later. You can't "just go-in" ignoring a gyroid. You have to jump, roll, something that Villager can predict and deal with.

Villager's f-tilt and down-tilt easily out range Falco's grab range... And Falco's having a finisher is bittersweet. If Falco shields Villager's jab, Villager can keep jabbing, end whenever he wants often safely running away, shielding, or jumping, very little endlag. Falco does more knockback sure, but if shielded his endlag is getting punished.

Yeah, I already said pocketing a lazer is pretty pointless, Villagers wouldn't bother with it. Pocketing lloid can kill at higher percents though, I wouldnt take it likely. In fact launching one and grabbing while someone shields and holding them to get hit by it is a great Villager kill set-up I get away with. Or you can just use it for better edgeguarding.

You have experience and your views are valid, but if you're really approaching this fearing his reflector this much and trying to camp I'm not surprised you struggle this much... Falco defends himself from afar super easily. You need to get in there and shove him off-stage where Villager shines.

 

[CodyOdyO]

Shoving him off-stage is something that's much easier said than done, especially when most of Villager's combo starters rely off of Lloid setups, and if I can't approach with my Lloid setups I'm going to claim that I'm playing a more campy game. Any attempt to approach with a Lloid is telegraphed, and results in a punish from his reflector. Any approach that you try to make without a Lloid results in a lot less pressure towards Falco, and makes it easier to deal with.

When you can't effectively pressure Falco into approaching due to having to deal with reflector, and Falco doesn't approach you at all it puts you into a very awkward situation where timeouts are a legitimate possibility. Especially with a stock/percentage lead. In that type of situation if Villager is faced with approaching the only possible option is to attempt to approach him with your aerials due to the reflector out spacing any of Villagers tilts. Perfect shields can be viable here I guess, but you have to be aware of how much ground the reflector truly covers, and know how much it lingers. There have been many-a-times where I've not respected the last few frames of the reflector, and have taken damage from it. Looking at an aerial viewpoint the only aerials you can approach with are turnips, and nair due to the slingshots being projectiles. Both dair, and nair have enough end lag on them where you can get punished by a down smash. It forces you into awkward situations where you'll most likely become very predictable, and there's not a whole lot you can do about it, because it's one of your few options. I've definitely had experience attempting to rush in, and it rarely pays off in the end.

A tree won't do anything to assist the situation in which a Falco player won't approach. If he wasn't going to approach you without it he won't approach it afterwards. If anything it will deter Falco from approaching even more so, and it will still put you into a situation where you're thinking "Damn, I guess I have to try to figure out a way around this wall."

Villager's ftilt would probably be the most viable spacing tool on the ground that he would have, but there's a hefty amount of endlag on the move, and falco may be able to still get in with a dtilt, or ftilt. I truly feel that in almost every scenario in regards to close-quarters Falco will be in a more favorable position. I know I wanna separate myself if I'm there.

I'll definitely agree with the idea that Falco is in a huge state of disadvantage once he's off stage. It's just the struggle of getting him off stage that makes the matchup so incredibly challenging for Villager. Especially if Falco is playing off of reaction which is very possible in this matchup.

Maybe my views are misconstrued by the specific person behind the controller. In this case it's Gamegenie. He's definitely a more defensive player than I am, and more defensive than any other Falco I've come across. My thing is though is that when he plays any character besides Falco I have a much easier time getting in, and taking him out, so from the experience I've had with the player, and therefore the character it leads me to believe that a defensive Falco can force unwanted approaches out of Villager, and it'll assist in setting up those specific situations that benefit Falco a lot.

My advice to any Falco player reading this who goes up against a Villager: Play patient, and extremely defensive. Watch how your opponent reacts to your reflector being thrown out, and be weary of potential baits. Lloids are easy to reflect, and slingshots can get predictable after a time. As long as you remain confident in your ground control, and you consistently punish any attempted approach Villager tries to throw at you the matchup will be extremely doable. Mix up your recovery as well with early side-b's for recovering high, and even at times recovering low if they assume you to be going high. Proper mixups will save your life, and if you can get back to the stage and restart the cycle over again you're going to be much better off. As for offensive options, fthrow into fair are of course solid options, fthrow to usmash if you read their di properly, and you'll also be able to get some uthrow uairs as well if you read their di as well. tilts, and jab will help set your space against anything Villager tries to approach with. Your moves come out faster. Use that to your advantage anytime Villager tries to go in.

 

[Ffamran]

Bear in mind that Falco has one of the worst disadvantages in the game made worse with Bair not having a front hitbox as it's Wolf's Bair in animation now. Characters that also have bad disadvantages include Captain Falcon, Ike, Bowser, and I believe King Dedede and default DK. Of those characters, only Falco suffers from having no attacks to interrupt combos reliably; the others just have slow, but well-covering attacks. His Nair is fast, but is short ranged, only covers around his upper body, and the strong hit comes out at frame 21. Compare this to Mario, Luigi, Yoshi, and Villager's "get off me", frame 3 Nair.

No one should go behind Falco as his Bair is strong, but Villager has a projectile for Fair and Bair, Falco has no answer for attacks above or below him, especially since Villager's Uair and Dair are disjoints while Falco's Uair is both average in speed and not disjointed while Dair's too slow. Even in front, Nair isn't reliable, Reflector's end lag and precision is risky, Fair is too slow, and Blaster requires precision and spacing, but that means nothing when Villager can pelt him with Fair, Bair, pocketed stuff, or even Lloid. Villager can carry Falco from the ledge to the blast zone because of his poor air speed and poor disadvantage.

Poor air speed also means Falco's main method of moving horizontally will be grounded. Falco Phantasm and Phase are his primary burst movement, but the end lag even when IAP'd can be taken advantage of. Fast Fire Bird is his other, less end lag burst movement, but it makes his recovery shorter and it's telegraphed enough that you can catch him.

Falco off-stage is basically dead meat unless you let him back on for free. Falco Phantasm's lack of a front hitbox means it only hits with the trail and Falco is easily caught by anything. (Distant) Fire Bird is just a free punish and spike. Fast Fire Bird allows Falco to move on the ground quicker, but it will kill his already exploitable recovery. The only thing Falco can really do to cover his recovery is Blaster and Reflector which done too late means he SDs and if baited, means a punish.

There is probably no MU where Falco goes beyond slightly advantaged - beyond 60:40. If anything, since I don't like giving ratios this early on in the meta, I'd say Falco goes 50:50 at best. His poor disadvantage and lack of good approaches is enough to say he can't dominate this or any MU. Villager can wall out, bait, pressure, and kill early Falco that it's not even funny when Side Smash kills Falco close to 30% with some rage at center stage or the Axe since Falco's a lightweight who survives because of his fall speed which is a double-edged sword. It's up close, when you mis-space, mess up, become predictable, and immobile where Falco will punish hard.

 

[Zionaze]

SH-Retreating Reflector will reflect both grounded loid,fair and slap villager across the cheek. If they bait it, the best they can do is dash attack you.

 

[CodyOdyO]

Bear in mind that Falco has one of the worst disadvantages in the game made worse with Bair not having a front hitbox as it's Wolf's Bair in animation now. Characters that also have bad disadvantages include Captain Falcon, Ike, Bowser, and I believe King Dedede and default DK. Of those characters, only Falco suffers from having no attacks to interrupt combos reliably; the others just have slow, but well-covering attacks. His Nair is fast, but is short ranged, only covers around his upper body, and the strong hit comes out at frame 21. Compare this to Mario, Luigi, Yoshi, and Villager's "get off me", frame 3 Nair.

No one should go behind Falco as his Bair is strong, but Villager has a projectile for Fair and Bair, Falco has no answer for attacks above or below him, especially since Villager's Uair and Dair are disjoints while Falco's Uair is both average in speed and not disjointed while Dair's too slow. Even in front, Nair isn't reliable, Reflector's end lag and precision is risky, Fair is too slow, and Blaster requires precision and spacing, but that means nothing when Villager can pelt him with Fair, Bair, pocketed stuff, or even Lloid. Villager can carry Falco from the ledge to the blast zone because of his poor air speed and poor disadvantage.

Poor air speed also means Falco's main method of moving horizontally will be grounded. Falco Phantasm and Phase are his primary burst movement, but the end lag even when IAP'd can be taken advantage of. Fast Fire Bird is his other, less end lag burst movement, but it makes his recovery shorter and it's telegraphed enough that you can catch him.

Falco off-stage is basically dead meat unless you let him back on for free. Falco Phantasm's lack of a front hitbox means it only hits with the trail and Falco is easily caught by anything. (Distant) Fire Bird is just a free punish and spike. Fast Fire Bird allows Falco to move on the ground quicker, but it will kill his already exploitable recovery. The only thing Falco can really do to cover his recovery is Blaster and Reflector which done too late means he SDs and if baited, means a punish.

There is probably no MU where Falco goes beyond slightly advantaged - beyond 60:40. If anything, since I don't like giving ratios this early on in the meta, I'd say Falco goes 50:50 at best. His poor disadvantage and lack of good approaches is enough to say he can't dominate this or any MU. Villager can wall out, bait, pressure, and kill early Falco that it's not even funny when Side Smash kills Falco close to 30% with some rage at center stage or the Axe since Falco's a lightweight who survives because of his fall speed which is a double-edged sword. It's up close, when you mis-space, mess up, become predictable, and immobile where Falco will punish hard.

Most of everything in this post implies that Falco is in the air, but the points I had made were under the implication that Falco was grounded, and has good established space between him and Villager. The answer that lies against Villagers dair is just shielding. Wait for the endlag, and you can punish him extraordinarily hard. When you're planted firmly on the ground Villager has no real good way of forcing you out of that situation. That's where my ideology for Falco's advantages in this matchup come from. Him being on the ground. You can't really pressure with fair, and bair too reliably against a Falco who is taking a few steps back, and going off of reaction like I had mention before in my earlier post. Falco has to go in with the understanding that the ground is what he prefers (lol).

I definitely see where the idea of him not having a solid nair vs. Villager can be troublesome however. Although I still stand firm in the idea that the extraordinary ground game Falco has against Villager makes this not as backbreaking as most seem to believe. It's simply difficult for Villager to make a good approach in that situation.

I've no experience with customs, so I won't be able to discuss the matchup at all under the implication of customs.

What I'm beginning to conclude, and am starting to agree with after various points have been made is that Falco rules on the ground, while Villager has to force Falco into the air in order to gain an advantage point. The fact that Villager has to make a move in order to put him into a state of advantage vs. Falco who once grounded has an advantage due to his neutral beating out Villager's general game is what makes me believe that the matchup still leans in Falco's favor. I will definitely lower the initial ratio I had originally posted however, and say that it's 55:45 Falco's favor.

 

[Gamegenie222]

Most of everything in this post implies that Falco is in the air, but the points I had made were under the implication that Falco was grounded, and has good established space between him and Villager. The answer that lies against Villagers dair is just shielding. Wait for the endlag, and you can punish him extraordinarily hard. When you're planted firmly on the ground Villager has no real good way of forcing you out of that situation. That's where my ideology for Falco's advantages in this matchup come from. Him being on the ground. You can't really pressure with fair, and bair too reliably against a Falco who is taking a few steps back, and going off of reaction like I had mention before in my earlier post. Falco has to go in with the understanding that the ground is what he prefers (lol).

I definitely see where the idea of him not having a solid nair vs. Villager can be troublesome however. Although I still stand firm in the idea that the extraordinary ground game Falco has against Villager makes this not as backbreaking as most seem to believe. It's simply difficult for Villager to make a good approach in that situation.

I've no experience with customs, so I won't be able to discuss the matchup at all under the implication of customs.

What I'm beginning to conclude, and am starting to agree with after various points have been made is that Falco rules on the ground, while Villager has to force Falco into the air in order to gain an advantage point. The fact that Villager has to make a move in order to put him into a state of advantage vs. Falco who once grounded has an advantage due to his neutral beating out Villager's general game is what makes me believe that the matchup still leans in Falco's favor. I will definitely lower the initial ratio I had originally posted however, and say that it's 55:45 Falco's favor.

55:45 gasp.

I'm only a defensive player with a solid ground game cause I have a few years of smash competitive experience coming from Brawl where Falco can really harass you and whose frame data was a bit better on some stuff. Also I have no experience with customs in the MU as well and if I did I would play more passive and patient as well till I know what I'm dealing with.

SH-Retreating Reflector will reflect both grounded loid,fair and slap villager across the cheek. If they bait it, the best they can do is dash attack you.

I don't do this enough lmao.

This matchup is still annoying as hell when you have to deal with the smash version of the terminator or Kratos from GOW LMAO.

 

[Tinkerer]

SH-Retreating Reflector will reflect both grounded loid,fair and slap villager across the cheek. If they bait it, the best they can do is dash attack you.

Which also gets reflected D:

 

[Ffamran]

Yo @ Ffamran my thread actually does have frame data for FSmash, FAir, etc. and so did mastercore as of patch v1.0.3 I think. Just a heads up

Anyway I will post more detailed thoughts on the MU in a bit

Updated to reflect that.

Oh, and I forgot about this, but Falco can get gimped by Villager's Watering Can. This video shows Fast Fire Bird getting gimped. Not a really major thing, but it's something to note if you want to be an ***.

 

[Gamegenie222]

Yoo @ Sonsa are you down to get games in later tonight or tomorrow in the MU regarding Falco vs Villager.

 

[Sonsa]

Yoo @ Sonsa are you down to get games in later tonight or tomorrow in the MU regarding Falco vs Villager.

I'm in college right now and as if our internet wasn't bad enough some dude got mad cause he didn't know how to register on something and hacked it all, even tweeting something along the lines of "What now Rutgers? Ive got your internet and Im not giving it back!" BUT I should be home and ready to fight tomorrow afternoonish.
Let's make sure to try every legal stage too.

 

[Gamegenie222]

I'm in college right now and as if our internet wasn't bad enough some dude got mad cause he didn't know how to register on something and hacked it all, even tweeting something along the lines of "What now Rutgers? Ive got your internet and Im not giving it back!" BUT I should be home and ready to fight tomorrow afternoonish.
Let's make sure to try every legal stage too.

LMAO that's crazy and alright then you would be on EST then since you said Rutgers.