• Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

Meta SSB4 Falco Matchup Discussion 24 - Diddy Kong - Are you gonna listen to that monkey?

Ffamran

The Smooth Devil Mod
Joined
Aug 25, 2014
Messages
14,629
Welcome to the Diddy Kong matchup discussion.

Falco and Diddy.png

All credit goes to Quas-quas for the original images.​

Here's a link to the main post: SSB4 Falco Matchup Discussion - Main Post. This will be more for general matchup discussions like making a suggestion and such. Or, you could head over to the social thread and ask there: Where We Prefer The Air And The Points Don't Matter!. Or PM me if you really have to, but don't make a habit out of it.

Oh, and if you guys and girls want to play each other to have fun or learn about the MU, check out the NNID and FC sharing thread on the Falco boards: http://smashboards.com/threads/anyone-want-to-exchange-nnids-or-friend-codes.386513/.

There's also the regular NNID and FC sharing threads in the Online discussion if you just want to ask anyone to play.

Notice: Some rules, guidelines, and tips. Some of these are a given since you joined any forum.

1. Be respectful of each other. No insults, no trolling, no flaming, or any of that nonsense.
2. Be aware that some of the discussions can and will be old, so don't call out someone for "wrong" data if that post was referring to say, patch 1.0.3 stuff.
3. Be impartial; learn to see things from other sides. So, don't boast about all the advantages. Notice weaknesses and strengths from both parties.
4. Stay on topic.
5. Have fun.

And here is a frame speed ranking of their regular attacks and grabs - no Specials yet, sorry - to clear up on things since sometimes a move may feel slow, but it's actually fast and vice versa. Plus more information doesn't always hurt. Data from the Complete Hitbox/Frame Data For Every Character thread.

As of patch 1.1.4.
Move Hit Frames|:4falco:|:4diddy:
Jab|2-4, 10-12, 17-21, 22-26, 27-31, 32-36, (infinite), 41-42|3-5, ??, ??
Dash Attack|8-11 or 12-19|9-17, 18-23, 24-24
Ftilt|6-8|10-13 or 11-14 (angled)
Utilt|5-9, 12-16|6-12
Dtilt|7-9|4-6
Side Smash|17-19 or 20-20|12-14, 22-25
Up Smash|7-12, 13-20|5-9, 12-16, 19-24
Down Smash|7-9|6-7 or 16-18
Nair|3-5, 6-9, 14-17, 21-24|4-21
Fair|10-13, 14-17, 18-21, 22-25, 26-27, 28-29|6-9 or 10-17
Bair|4-5 or 7-11|5-9
Uair|7-11|4-8
Dair|16-19 or 20-31|17-18
Grab|8-9|6-7
Dash Grab|10-11|8-9
Pivot Grab|11-12|9-10
 
Last edited:

RedBeefBaron

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Nov 20, 2010
Messages
321
Location
Boston, MA
NNID
Redbeefbaron
Don't really know much about this so I'll just post some general thoughts to get the conversation going.

How does falco deal with diddy's crazy mobility?

How much worse will falco get comboed due to his fall speed? Can he defend against diddy at disadvantage?

How much more damage will falco be able to take before he's dead compared to how much he'll need to dish out before he kills diddy?

Can falco gimp diddy's recovery? Something like blaster to make him recover low and then going deep to take the barrels out? Can falco even go for deep edgeguarding against diddy realistically?
 
Last edited:

Ffamran

The Smooth Devil Mod
Joined
Aug 25, 2014
Messages
14,629
Don't really know much about this so I'll just post some general thoughts to get the conversation going.

How does falco deal with diddy's crazy mobility?

How much worse will falco get comboed due to his fall speed? Can he defend against diddy at disadvantage?

How much more damage will falco be able to take before he's dead compared to how much he'll need to dish out before he kills diddy?

Can falco gimp diddy's recovery? Something like blaster to make him recover low and then going deep to take the barrels out? Can falco even go for deep edgeguarding against diddy realistically?
Okay, first off, I love this. I love the general questions to start a MU discussion. Anyway going through them:

1. Ignoring burst movements, Falco Phantasm, Monkey Flip, etc., Falco and Diddy's air speed are close to each other; I think Diddy's slightly faster. Overall ground speed, Diddy's faster, but it's not going to be like Diddy vs. Ganondorf or Sonic vs. Robin. So, with that, I'd say Diddy's slightly faster, but not so much where it becomes an issue where Falco can't even catch him at all. With default burst movements, Diddy's going to be faster and safer since Monkey Flip is much more versatile and even Rocket Barrel Boost is controllable with charges. Falco only has Falco Phantasm which doesn't have a hitbox, I believe after looking into it for bit, on Falco unlike Fox's Fox Illusion - Falco Phantasm only hits with the "trail" and during the travel, Falco can dash through so it seems like he's hitting people with him. That or it really doesn't have a hitbox at the later 1/4 of the travel. With customs, Falco starts to catch up with Fast Fire Bird which is safer because of the lower end lag compared to Falco Phantasm. Long story short, Diddy's faster, but not that insanely fast compared to Falco.

2. I don't really know about this one since Falco's hitbox isn't smaller than Ganondorf, Ike, and Captain Falcon. It's the issue of Diddy and Falco having poor air speed while Falco is a fast faller who could use his fast fall speed to get away.

Disadvantage-wise, Falco's basically Captain Falcon except with slower air speed, less weight, and less range. Falco's Nair is pretty useless since people can fall out of it and only the last hit which comes out at frame 21 is a strong hit while the others are meant to link into the final hit. That said, mis-spacing or going behind Falco would let him punish and you don't want to eat his Bair.

Falco's probably not going to be able to do much at disadvantage against anyone; his only hopes are death and someone being stupid. It might be better for Falco to die and come back with a fresh stock than deal with getting comboed and timed out if someone's softly comboing him only to keep a high percentage on him and win a time out.

3. Funny thing is that both Falco and Diddy are lightweights... Er... I think Diddy's a lightweight. Mid-lightweight? Anyway, fast fall speed makes Falco seem heavier and survive longer. You'd think him being lightweight and then he survives to around 150% because you didn't hit him near the ledge and/or hard enough. Regardless, both of their Side Smashes will kill each other at the ledges around 90%. I'd say Falco and Diddy kill each other pretty well and damage each other pretty well, but differently. Their kill ranges would probably be similar.

4. Falco's Fair is probably the safest route for him to gimp Diddy off-stage because of the slight disjoint and being a multi-hit move that keeps people in, but it's a frame 12 move. Both of their Dairs spike and should be used if the other is recovering way to close to the ledge and the potential spiker is right next to the ledge. I bet both of them could walk of the ledge or drop off from the ledge and spike the other. Basically, don't be stupid. Fair's slight disjoint might be a reason why Falco can challenge Monkey Flip, but a smart Diddy shouldn't be spamming or relying solely on Monkey Flip. I don't think Falco can challenge a Rocket Barrel Boost heading straight at him.

Falco can sort of gimp with Nair and I believe with Uair's body hitbox by stalling. His Bair is the go-to stage spike while Fair and Nair can also stage spike, but not as quick or reliably. As for Blaster, it's not going to be a good option. You have to know exactly or hope that Blaster hits and even then, it might not work since Diddy's Rocket Barrel Boost can go far. One thing is that if the laser hits right when you jump, then your second jump is gone and you've covered no height.

Falco, Meta Knight, Kirby, the Pits, Jigglypuff, Villager, and from what people are saying, Mewtwo are characters that can and should go deep off-stage to gimp, spike, or kill people. Falco's jump allows him to go deep and if he's high enough, one jump is enough to get back, but going deeper means he'll have to Fire Bird and wall-jump if necessary. Distant Fire Bird allows him to go slightly deeper, but the charge time means it's much easier to gimp him while Fast Fire Bird's shorter travel can be made up by wall-jumping and for most characters, Falco might not need to go that deep anyway. Realistically, Falco can go deep to edgeguard, but people just don't edgeguard a lot because they don't know what works yet. I mean, people talk about how Diddy's recovery is gimpable, but people don't go and even attempt to edgeguard him. If you don't, then his gimpable recovery isn't gimpable.

Anyway, you are right, this isn't a common MU and Falco in general isn't common. The only Falco vs. Diddy footage I know involves Keitaro's from way back and GimR's against Logic's Diddy and both Keitaro and GimR at this point secondary him meaning their mains would be better suited solely because that's their main. The other issue is this: Diddy's a developed character or a much more developed character; Falco isn't. That already puts Falco at a disadvantage.
 

RedBeefBaron

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Nov 20, 2010
Messages
321
Location
Boston, MA
NNID
Redbeefbaron
thoughtful response
Gonna just reply to these in the same order.

1.Since blaster has been nerfed pretty bad, and Falco can no longer really camp or force approaches, the mobility issue is going to be most obvious if Falco cannot stop Diddy from getting a second or two to himself to pluck a banana when he wants. AFAIK, Falco will not be able to consistently stop Diddy from setting up his banana, either by patiently plucking it behind him and immediately jumping, z-catching, and fast falling back to the ground, or aggressively b-reverse plucking the banana towards Falco from mid range and approaching with fair, dash grab, nair, and empty hop mixups as the banana falls and traps. Diddy Kong is going to get one nasty mixup per banana that Falco can't stop Diddy from setting up. If Falco gets hit into the air he will probably get comboed for decades. I'l get into that later.

This is a lot harder to deal with than it sounds on paper. Even if you defend against the banana really well, say, by z-catching it and immediately throwing it away or back at Diddy, you're still being forced into a situation where you have to do something and the grab/fair mixup is on the way. It's like how Dedede mains use gordo, it can be defended against but you have to do something, which allows Dedede to come at you the way he wants.

Except Dedede's are explaining why Gordo isn't trash. Diddy's use this strategy to make bananas the best projectile in the game. There are dozens of of ways to approach with bananas in Smash 4 because now we can repluck a banana out of our hand after the initial spawn pluck, in addition to four directions to throw and a z-drop. Different setups require different defense maneuvers. Because the Diddy player will know which way he will approach out of many setups and the opponent has to guess or react, skilled banana approaches are the most free mix up in the game. And Diddy gets a lot of reward for getting in.

For this reason I don't think Falco's reflector will be very good here for anything other than pokes, unless he has a much safer one in customs because otherwise it's gonna get punished by something like jump to fast fall fair or nair too much if he tries to use it to reflect the peel. The risk isn't worth the reward because Diddy is ready to go for the follow up before he throws, z-drops, and plucks bananas at you in weird ways to trap you.

As far as taking the banana away goes, air speed is good but foot speed trumps it. Because a foot speed character can just sprint across the ground as far as he needs to before jumping and z-catching the peel if its in the air. Additionally "z-scooping," or z-catching an item that is on the ground, is now a thing. Simply running up as close to a grounded banana as you can without tripping and jumping with an immediate z-scoop is a fast, lagless way to pick peels up off the ground. But it's going to be a bad idea if you have slower foot speed than Diddy, because again, Diddy's entire playstyle now revolves around using bananas to force the opponent into situations where he has the advantage. He will use grounded bananas as lures and you will get faired if he catches you going for this.

Characters like Fox, Pikachu, Falcon, Sonic and such are good at taking bananas from Diddy off the aggressive pluck and off the ground for this reason. Falco probably cannot handle this situation like that. A Diddy who knows how to get the most off of every banana and setup as many times as he can will actually force an approach himself. Which he can also use to lure people into hits.

You're other option is to overpower Diddy's neutral by approaching while simultaneously destroying the bananas Diddy tries to pull out to set you up. Someone like Pikachu can do this well, destroying aggressive b-reverse plucks with jumping thunderjolts and fairs on the way in.

Can Falco achieve something like this? Is the front of your face safe at all during phantasm or will the banana hit you if you try to rush through it? Could blaster snipe bananas on the pluck safely? Because if someone did that to me more than once in a real match I'd probably freak out. Since the nerfs bananas are Diddy's everything. Diddy does pretty low damage and knockback now. He needs to be able to open the opponent up much more than they can stop him while dishing some damage back and the banana is how he does this. Characters who can take advantage of the peel's awful, awful durability and quickly destroy it should figure that out.

2. If "Falco's probably not going to be able to do much at disadvantage against anyone; his only hopes are death and someone being stupid," you're probably going to lose this matchup hard if you have no way to disrupt Diddy's nuetral. Like, 7-3. Since the patch Diddy is like he was in Brawl: a relentless combo maniac with a dozen hits at a good advantage and a million ways to open you up in neutral. This is gonna be made way worse by Falco's issues at disadvantage as Diddy will get more damage per power play than usual. Which will add up really fast.

3. But also like Brawl Diddy, as of the patch Smash 4 Diddy's Achilles heel is the fact that he has terrible kill power outside of hard reads and pefect banana setups. He has reasonable moves for this though, in his F-smash which is now only a little bit more unsafe, and the second hit of his D-smash which is actually quite powerful. With customs on rocketbarrel attack is a risky yet brutal coin flip mixup that will destroy people early if Diddy can bait an air dodge, but Diddy will get hit if he misses, especially by fast fallers like Falco.

If you can avoid these three things and draw stocks out for as far as you can and use your superior kill power to close stocks before Diddy lands his kill you can be successful. Even if you take a slight beating in the neutral.You just have to stop as many banana power plays as you can.

Bair becomes a kill option near the edge for Diddy at around 130% I would imagine? Watch out for bairs and dtilts to bairs at that point. U-tilt can be a good kill option at higher % but maybe not as much vs. Falco.

4.Okay, I think we can comfortably say that Falco can gimp Diddy by taking his barrels out when he is forced to recover low due to his ability to go deep. But a lot of characters can say something like this, the hard part is actually blocking the monkey flip to the point where Diddy is so low he has to charge barrels to recover. Monkey flip is fast, so this isn't easy. You will have to be either really on point with your wall of pain or find a more creative solution.

What I've been practicing is using Pikachu's B-reverse thunder just off stage to create a disjointed wall which will block the monkey flip from reaching the ledge and force Diddy to charge the barrels low where he is easily gimped by thunder jolt and quick attack.

But even that's hard. Monkey flip is a fast, safe, and confusing recovery since Diddy can wait to leap halfway into the stage and back to neutral where he dominates for as long as he wants. Coupled with the fact that the peanut cancel makes his movement even more crazy, I don't think most characters will be able to stop this recovery enough to put Diddy under the stage where he's screwed.

But I actually think Falco might have a shot if you can make some reads due his godlike jump speed, his godlike jump height, and Wolf's bair. See if you can wall of pain Diddy with bair to the point where he has to charge barrrels from below the stage. Then go deep and tap him with whatever. If you can get one good early gimp 2 out of 3 games it could salvage the matchup.


One more general thing, all characters have the same item fundamentals, so learn them. Practice, z-catches, z-scoops, and if you really hate Diddy learn how to use aerials with a banana in hand by z-dropping and immediately catching with the aerial to keep his banana away from him for longer. Falco mains will have to come up with a great game plan and then iron it down to a fine point as Diddy is still a force of nature but this doesn't have to be unwinnable for Falco.
 
Last edited:

Ffamran

The Smooth Devil Mod
Joined
Aug 25, 2014
Messages
14,629
Falco Phantasm doesn't have a front hitbox if my theory on it is correct. I don't use Fox a lot, but I notice that Falco Phantasm to the ledge or onto the stage leaves Falco punishable. End lag aside, it's this issue of, "What is up with the hitbox on this thing?!" I don't remember how Falco Phantasm interacts with a Banana Peel, but I'm going to assume that you could throw it at Falco and he gets hit. Blaster-wise, he can catch you, but I don't know how far he has to stand to not get punished because of the end lag. Even then, it might not be worth it and Falco should just find another way around it or a way to use Banana Peel in his game plan.

The only thing I can think of that would in general freak people out is if the Falco player can consistently pull of Fire Slides with Fast Fire Bird. We're talking about a character who can't run as fast as Ike shoot forward and immediately hitting or grabbing people. The issue is that's it's difficult to pull off, it's telegraphed enough, and pulling this off consistently in the heat of battle isn't going to be as simple as pulling off perfect pivots, Jab canceling, etc.

If customs are allowed, Falco might opt for Reflector Void which launches people and basically adds another aerial kill option that's disjointed. It's slow, it's a frame 13 move, but it's rewarding. Default Reflector can still be used for spacing and the chance for tripping is nice.

Wolf's Bair on Falco is more of a nerf than a buff. Why? Functionally, Falco's Bair was pretty much the same damage-wise and similarly knockback-wise since Melee. The difference? The front hitbox. Wolf already had a decent, quick Nair to cover himself along with his air speed. Melee Falco had two sex kicks, Nair and Bair, Brawl had one, Bair, and SSB4 doesn't have one. Unless Falco can catch you with Reflector, Uair, or Fair, he's not going to do much with Nair because of its range and that he needs to hit with the frame 21 hit to get people off of him or connect it until the frame 21 hit. If he had his old Bair which was replaced for no reason, then his disadvantage would be much better.

In the air, Falco doesn't have much options other than using Falco Phantasm or Fast Fire Bird to get out or the usual air dodge and jump. Bair won't work because of the lack of a front hitbox, Fair and Dair are too slow; Uair hits mostly the upper part of Falco, whiffing Reflector is punishable, Blaster only stalls, (Distant) Fire Bird is a no-brainer, and Nair is prone to people falling out. It's only on the ground where Falco has tons of options to reset to neutral or even take it to advantage. Jab is frame 2, Ftilt is a fast poke, Dtilt is disjointed and launches, Down Smash hits at the same frame as Dtilt and knocks people back, so long as Reflector doesn't whiff, it's another fast poke, Utilt and Up Smash are good anti-airs, RAR Bair combos and kills, and Uair can auto-cancel, but I don't think it'll hit Diddy since he's shorter. Falco's ground CQC is where he shines ironically. It's like I said about Falco being similar to Captain Falcon at disadvantage; so long as Falco can pressure and not be sent to disadvantage, he's dangerous, but one mistake or one hit and he's going to take a beating and he can't endure as much as the Capt.
 
Last edited:

SoundChow

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Nov 29, 2014
Messages
86
Location
PA
I think this matchup is somewhere around 40-60 Falco. I'm not very knowledgable about Diddy Kong, but I know post-patch that he's still an extremely good character. You've got to be smart with his banana, catch it on the ground with rar bair or short-hop air dodge and use it against him. Air dodge sparingly because his up-air is a frame trap and can kill pretty early. Use jabs and tilts to space yourself and sh-phantasm as a combo starter. Last thing, don't get grabbed near the edge of the stage because he has strong kill throws.
 

Dingding123

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Sep 27, 2007
Messages
478
Location
Houston, TX
A bad Diddy will have the advantage over a bad Falco for sure.

But IMO the matchup is much more even if both players know what they're doing.

boxing, anti-air and kill moves
vs.
ground mobility, combos and grab game.

Anyone can run around and hoo-hah, but pugilism is art! Art I say.

Anyway my take on the absolute basics of the matchup is that the longer they're both duking it out in neutral cqc the more advantage Falco has in the matchup. But the longer Diddy stays out of his range and approaches on his terms the more of an advantage Diddy has.
 
Last edited:

gameplayzero

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Apr 6, 2014
Messages
247
Location
California
NNID
RetroBlaze
I'm disappointed in the lack of "are you going to trust that monkey" jokes in the headlines.
 

Ffamran

The Smooth Devil Mod
Joined
Aug 25, 2014
Messages
14,629
I'm disappointed in the lack of "are you going to trust that monkey" jokes in the headlines.
Eh, I never heard of that and it's been years since I played Star Fox 64. Well...

Anyway, has anyone looked into this MU more? It should be a common MU for Falco players since there are a lot of Diddy players.
 

gameplayzero

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Apr 6, 2014
Messages
247
Location
California
NNID
RetroBlaze
Eh, I never heard of that and it's been years since I played Star Fox 64. Well...

Anyway, has anyone looked into this MU more? It should be a common MU for Falco players since there are a lot of Diddy players.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wj6c-blyGS8 (at 0:15).

I'll get on that as soon as I'm off of work or if I have down time. Just expect a wall of text. I'm hoping to fight the best diddy in my area for more accurate info but I haven't got the chance.
 

Ffamran

The Smooth Devil Mod
Joined
Aug 25, 2014
Messages
14,629
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wj6c-blyGS8 (at 0:15).

I'll get on that as soon as I'm off of work or if I have down time. Just expect a wall of text. I'm hoping to fight the best diddy in my area for more accurate info but I haven't got the chance.
I was around 6-8 years old the last time I played Star Fox 64 and I never did anything besides randomly beat the game like at least twice. I don't think I ever owned Star Fox 64, but my cousin did.

Edit: Forgot about this, but I wished @Keitaro, @GimR, and Logic posted here and gave their thoughts since they've all fought this MU before and even if it was one match, it's still something to give thoughts on.
 
Last edited:

gameplayzero

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Apr 6, 2014
Messages
247
Location
California
NNID
RetroBlaze
I was around 6-8 years old the last time I played Star Fox 64 and I never did anything besides randomly beat the game like at least twice. I don't think I ever owned Star Fox 64, but my cousin did.
only reason I remember is because I bought the 3ds version not that long ago and I found it hilarious. Still say it to my doubles partner when we are looking for matches.

Sadly I never owned the 64 version or a 64 for that matter. I'm a fraud I admit.
 
Top Bottom