Meta SSB4 Falco Matchup Discussion 21 - Ness - Soccer vs. Baseball

[Ffamran]

Welcome to the Ness matchup discussion.

All credit goes to Quas-quas for the original images.​

Here's a link to the main post: SSB4 Falco Matchup Discussion - Main Post. This will be more for general matchup discussions like making a suggestion and such. Or, you could head over to the social thread and ask there: Where We Prefer The Air And The Points Don't Matter!. Or PM me if you really have to, but don't make a habit out of it.

Oh, and if you guys and girls want to play each other to have fun or learn about the MU, check out the NNID and FC sharing thread on the Falco boards: http://smashboards.com/threads/anyone-want-to-exchange-nnids-or-friend-codes.386513/.

There's also the regular NNID and FC sharing threads in the Online discussion if you just want to ask anyone to play.

Notice: Some rules, guidelines, and tips. Some of these are a given since you joined any forum.

1. Be respectful of each other. No insults, no trolling, no flaming, or any of that nonsense.
2. Be aware that some of the discussions can and will be old, so don't call out someone for "wrong" data if that post was referring to say, patch 1.0.3 stuff.
3. Be impartial; learn to see things from other sides. So, don't boast about all the advantages. Notice weaknesses and strengths from both parties.
4. Stay on topic.
5. Have fun.

And here is a frame speed ranking of their regular attacks and grabs - no Specials yet, sorry - to clear up on things since sometimes a move may feel slow, but it's actually fast and vice versa. Plus more information doesn't always hurt. Data from the Complete Hitbox/Frame Data For Every Character threads.
As of patch 1.1.4.

Move Hit Frames||
Jab|2-4, 10-12, 17-21, 22-26, 27-31, 32-36, (infinite), 41-42|3-4, 8-9, 16-17
Dash Attack|8-11 or 12-19|8-8, 15-15, 22-22
Ftilt|6-8|7-10
Utilt|5-9, 12-16|7-8
Dtilt|7-9|3-4
Side Smash|17-19 or 20-20|21-22
Up Smash|7-12, 13-20|6-11, 12-30
Down Smash|7-9|10-15 or 17-18 or 23-29 or 31-32
Nair|3-5, 6-9, 14-17, 21-24|5-12 or 13-15
Fair|10-13, 14-17, 18-21, 22-25, 26-27, 28-29|8-18, 20-20
Bair|4-5 or 6-12|10-11 or 12-18
Uair|7-11|8-11
Dair|16-19 or 20-31|20-21 or 22-25
Grab|8-9|6-7
Dash Grab|10-11|8-9
Pivot Grab|11-12|10-11

 

[NotAnAdmin]

I think this is 55-45.

-Falco can force Ness to run at him
Lasers outspace him easily if you anticipate his movements and you use them at the right range.
-Falco can outrange him at close range
While this is a good thing, Ness just needs that one grab to send Falco straight to fair town, there are many ways to reset the hoo haa and ways to mix it up.
Falco wants Ness away from him most of the time, he has to be very careful to space grabs and attacks correctly at close range. Shield grabs are too easy and too simple in this game for any smart Smasher to not use it.
-back throw kills Falco at around 110-120%

Getting grabbed is an absolute a no-go. Fast falling makes it easier to link those fairs and uairs and nairs, he can juggle him all day once he can manage a grab.

 

[Ffamran]

Funny thing Falco can do is spam Jab 1 while in PK Fire. Don't believe it? Try it out when you get caught in it. Fox can do this too and maybe Luigi, Yoshi, and other fast jabbers like ZSS and Little Mac, but the thing about Falco (and Yoshi if he can) is that his Jab covers like a shield around him while Fox's covers straight ahead. I had Ness's try to grab me only to share my pain. I'm not sure if this works with Robin's Arcfire; it might.

Falco's lasers can be fired at an irregular pace meaning Ness can't really absorb them unless Falco's firing a constant stream of lasers which at that point, Ness shouldn't even bother with PK Magnet and just run up and bat Falco from behind. Falco can abuse PK Magnet's end lag to sneak in lasers and he can catch up to Ness if he's close enough while Fox can just rush in. In this MU, I'd say default Blaster and Explosive Blaster are more useful than Burst Blaster since the hit stun and ability to edgeguard safely is better than taking a chance of accidentally firing off 5 lasers and healing Ness.

Falco can DI out of Ness's D-throw to Fair, but a savvy Ness will just bait that DI and/or jump and do something else like Uair, Nair, or RAR Bair. Speaking of aerials, don't challenge Fair or Bair, I believe they're disjointed and the only aerial Falco has that is disjointed is Fair which isn't much or he could try for Reflector, especially if he has Reflector Void. Ness's Dair isn't something to laugh at despite it being slower than Falco's, so be wary. I'd rather take Fast Fire Bird over Distant and default since Falco doesn't have to go far to gimp Ness. Gimping Ness is more about safety than how deep you can go.

As far as Reflector and Phantasm customs go. Any of the reflectors would be okay, but I'd stick with default for the added benefit of using Ness's projectiles against him since they're energy-based over Toon Link and Link's where Reflector Void will still reflect their physical projectiles. It's dependent on play style, so if you want to launch and be able to kill Ness from afar with Reflector Void, go a head or use Accele-Reflector on a projectile happy Ness. For Phantasms, once again, play style dependent, but Charge is iffy since I don't know much about it and it just seems like another slower and weaker Side Smash.

Also, never challenge PKT2 - the move that launches Ness like a rocket - if you don't know you can intercept in time. Falco being a lightweight means he will die if you're being too bold or too stupid. Reflecting Ness's PKT1 might be the safest way to gimp him aside from going out of your way to hit PKT1 - default PKT1 can be clanked and it's supposedly the best way to stop Ness from juggling you with PKT1 - while Dair means you have to get there in time.

 

[SoundChow]

I think that this matchup is more like 50-50 or slightly sided to Ness (without customs). Lasers are an advantage for Falco, though they don't really force Ness to approach. Ness' grab game is really good at dealing damage and establishing stage control, plus he can apply safe offstage prssure with pk thunder. Things like his insanely fast Nair, which breaks him out of combos, his small hurtbox, and his weird psi hitboxes make it an annoying matchup for Falco. I don't know if the matchup is favorable to anyone, so I'll say that it's even.

 

[Luco]

Magnet cancels mean if we predict lasers we're not necessarily at a disadvantage, but I like the write-up. :D

I haven't played this MU in some time, but from what I can remember, jabs are obnoxiously good against us in this MU. Falco's on the lighter side, so Bthrow will be killing him as early as 86% from the close ledge, 120% at the middle and 142% at the far end (all significantly reduced with rage. Check my favourite thread of all time for details: http://smashboards.com/threads/nesss-back-throw-and-ko-percents-the-thread.387966/ <3 ). This is an approximate average of about 110-130%, which, much like his partner Fox, doesn't give you a lot of wriggle room.

You are a little more of a danger to us offstage than fox, but reflector carries the risk of either reflecting the bolt back at us, or having the reflector hit us instead. On the contrary, we can edge-guard you quite well because Nair, Fair and Bair all beat out fire bird and I think at least clash with Phantasm if not beat it out (? But I'm not sure).

The biggest issue for you guys in this MU is you don't have the same mobility as fox, and punishing your end-lag on attacks with a grab is significantly easier for us than in the Fox MU. I believe also that unlike Fox we have an easier time going against you in the air too. This makes the MU particularly troublesome for you guys. With customs, I think void reflector may or may not be better, I'm not sure - but we also get lasting PK Thunder to make recovering even less fun for you than usual.

The main thing that allows Fox to stay afloat in this MU is mobility (making that MU evenish), and the jab lock (which you guys may or may not have). Falco's lack of such makes this MU significantly harder, and although you are slightly heavier and jabs generally are more annoying, I feel as though Ness comes out slightly on top in most situations in the MU and wins it. I would argue either 60:40 or 55:45 Ness' favour.

I may be missing something though. It's certainly true that I had a lot of trouble with the MU quite a few months back.

 

[Ffamran]

Everything beats out Falco Phantasm because it has such a weird hitbox. I think the last half doesn't have a hitbox, but I've been hit a few times at the later half, so I have no idea what the hell is wrong with Falco Phantasm and why it's like that. I mean, as a spike, it's not even good and very situational. If Falco Phantasm is used too early and Falco's going to land on the stage, anything will hurt him. It's the speed that makes it tricky to catch, but good timing can catch Falco at any time while Fox has the added benefit of a full hitbox with Fox Illusion making it harder to catch; I've done it once with Falco's Up Smash and it was by pure, stupid chance I caught it. The end lag even when short hopped should be punished and it's a sad day when Falco's staring at his demise. Hell, you could spam PK Fire at the ledge on Falco and he will get caught.

Falco Phase travels less, has no hitbox, and I believe more end lag in return for not being able to hit Falco except at the end which once again, you could spam PK Fire or wait when he screws up, lands on the ledge, and faces his doom again.

Fire Bird might be a better recovery at this point since there's an active hitbox at all times during the move unlike Phantasm. The only issue is the charging time which gives time for people to punish it and gimp him. Falco's second jump might as well be used instead. Fast Fire Bird fixes the charging time in return for traveling slightly less than default and Distant Fire Bird increases the distance and charging time and considering PK Flash and PKT, it's probably not a good idea.

 

[Luco]

Everything beats out Falco Phantasm because it has such a weird hitbox. I think the last half doesn't have a hitbox, but I've been hit a few times at the later half, so I have no idea what the hell is wrong with Falco Phantasm and why it's like that. I mean, as a spike, it's not even good and very situational. If Falco Phantasm is used too early and Falco's going to land on the stage, anything will hurt him. It's the speed that makes it tricky to catch, but good timing can catch Falco at any time while Fox has the added benefit of a full hitbox with Fox Illusion making it harder to catch; I've done it once with Falco's Up Smash and it was by pure, stupid chance I caught it. The end lag even when short hopped should be punished and it's a sad day when Falco's staring at his demise. Hell, you could spam PK Fire at the ledge on Falco and he will get caught.

Falco Phase travels less, has no hitbox, and I believe more end lag in return for not being able to hit Falco except at the end which once again, you could spam PK Fire or wait when he screws up, lands on the ledge, and faces his doom again.

Fire Bird might be a better recovery at this point since there's an active hitbox at all times during the move unlike Phantasm. The only issue is the charging time which gives time for people to punish it and gimp him. Falco's second jump might as well be used instead. Fast Fire Bird fixes the charging time in return for traveling slightly less than default and Distant Fire Bird increases the distance and charging time and considering PK Flash and PKT, it's probably not a good idea.

To be fair, just having the option to phantasm will mean PK Flash should almost never be used. PKT though could be an issue for you there. =P

Though, because PK fire's bolt travels so low to the ground, I wonder if it's a better overall counter to Phantasm than SH Nair, though both require a bit of a read.

What would your personal recommendation be for this MU in terms of custom sets? Ness' best customs are PSI Vortex, PK Fire Burst and Lasting Pk Thunder. PSI Magnet is too useful just being there as a potential threat and can kinda force an approach, but PK Fire Burst could be used over regular, and so could LPKT.

 

[Ffamran]

Customs are an issue since I haven't used them in any setting other than training and watching people. The PK Fire thing does require you to know where Falco will be, but it's similar to Bowser's Fire Breath and Charizard's Flamethrower. It was just stupid when it happened... At least it doesn't launch like Robin's Arcfire.

Oh, and I've never competed, so I can only go off of videos, whatever experience I get, and thinking about those experiences. I will never say something like, "Ness gets gimped by Falco easily with Fair, Dair, and Nair." If it's something that can't be consistently done or is known by a lot of people, then I'm not saying a thing. I will say Falco can gimp Ness, but anyone can gimp anyone.

 

[NotAnAdmin]

I'm not too familiar with customs, but I agree that getting thrown off-stage can be almost certain death after 60%, if not Falco will at least gain significant damage.
Ness has many options to keep Falco away from ledge.
Phantasm is very odd, sometimes it seems to hit beyond where I thought the hitbox ends, sometimes it clanks and Falco keeps going, sometimes Falco gets bopped completely.

 

[The Elephant]

I think Falcos biggest weakness in this matchup is his poor grab range.

But Falco can keep ness away, which is how the matchup should be played. It's how a lot of Falcos matchups should be played honestly.