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Meta SSB4 Falco Matchup Discussion 20 - Ike - Soldiers of Fortune

Ffamran

The Smooth Devil Mod
Joined
Aug 25, 2014
Messages
14,629
Welcome to the Ike matchup discussion.

Falco and Ike.png

All credit goes to Quas-quas for the original images.​

Here's a link to the main post: SSB4 Falco Matchup Discussion - Main Post. This will be more for general matchup discussions like making a suggestion and such. Or, you could head over to the social thread and ask there: Where We Prefer The Air And The Points Don't Matter!. Or PM me if you really have to, but don't make a habit out of it.

Oh, and if you guys and girls want to play each other to have fun or learn about the MU, check out the NNID and FC sharing thread on the Falco boards: http://smashboards.com/threads/anyone-want-to-exchange-nnids-or-friend-codes.386513/.

There's also the regular NNID and FC sharing threads in the Online discussion if you just want to ask anyone to play.

Notice: Some rules, guidelines, and tips. Some of these are a given since you joined any forum.

1. Be respectful of each other. No insults, no trolling, no flaming, or any of that nonsense.
2. Be aware that some of the discussions can and will be old, so don't call out someone for "wrong" data if that post was referring to say, patch 1.0.3 stuff.
3. Be impartial; learn to see things from other sides. So, don't boast about all the advantages. Notice weaknesses and strengths from both parties.
4. Stay on topic.
5. Have fun.

And here is a frame speed ranking of their regular attacks and grabs - no Specials yet, sorry - to clear up on things since sometimes a move may feel slow, but it's actually fast and vice versa. Plus more information doesn't always hurt. Data from the Complete Hitbox/Frame Data For Every Character threads.

As of patch 1.1.4.
Move Hit Frames|:4falco:|:4myfriends:
Jab|2-4, 10-12, 17-21, 22-26, 27-31, 32-36, (infinite), 41-42|4-5, 12-13, 26-29
Dash Attack|8-11 or 12-19|15-16 or 17-19
Ftilt|6-8|13-14
Utilt|5-9, 12-16|11-13 or 14-22
Dtilt|7-9|7-8
Side Smash|17-19 or 20-20|31-32 or 33-35
Up Smash|7-12, 13-20|25-29 or 30-31
Down Smash|7-9|13-15 or 32-33 or 34-36
Nair|3-5, 6-9, 14-17, 21-24|12-21 or 22-27
Fair|10-13, 14-17, 18-21, 22-25, 26-27, 28-29|12-15
Bair|4-5 or 6-12|7-9
Uair|7-11|13-29
Dair|16-19 or 20-31|16-17
Grab|8-9|7-8
Dash Grab|10-11|10-11
Pivot Grab|11-12|11-12
 
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Legato

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jan 1, 2015
Messages
111
Location
Belleville, Michigan
NNID
LLegato
Ike can handle Falco pretty well if he utilizes his side-b when we try to camp him (I miss auto-cancelling lasers). I have had the pleasure of playing some good Ikes, and this MU is by no means the easiest for Falco.

Ike has nice priority and actually some great spacing, be weary of approaching a good Ike because his PP dtilt is a very good spacing tool against Falco. Very smart lasers are the name of the game in this MU. You need to vary lasers into approaches so that you can get in on Ike. He can box you out pretty well if you aren't careful, and he can be somewhat difficult to gimp if he is smart with his counter and Aether.

Once you get in though he is quite easy to combo on. I believe you can get 3 utilts off before he has a chance to counter at 0%, 2 at 10%. Dtilt-->fair is always a good option and combos pretty late on Ike. I actually prefer to dtilt and then try to get reads though.

Anything that forces Ike above you is great. If the Ike gets into the habit of f-b then you can cover the same distance as him by using SH phantasm and get a free punish. Utilt and uair are preferable since it is easiest to continue the juggle off of those. His options are very limited in this position, and Falco has many answers. Just stay unpredictable and don't get caught by his counter.

If an Ike launches you, do not try to answer his approaches while in this position. He has priority and great spacing tools. In neutral, approaching Ike from the air is just a bad idea. His usmash covers great ground, and his utilt/ bair are relatively quick so be mindful of an Ike below you or with his back to you. I believe Falco wins out in terms of punishes though, so punish hard.

In summary, they are pretty even in neutral game, but Falco has the advantage once he gets in. Not sure how I would rate this one yet.
 
Joined
Oct 27, 2013
Messages
226
Location
Illinois
NNID
CRQ-L-07
3DS FC
4854-6608-1552
Ike can get you out of his face easy, and his attacks hit like a truck. If we're talking customs, Ike's side-b 2 goes very fast and doesn't stop upon hitting a player, and he has a paralyzing counter that on low percents can give him a free grab, and on higher percents potential usmash for the KO. His ftilt and utilt are kill moves, and his dtilt launches you in the air which is pretty unfavorable for Falco. His jab kicks you out of his face while dealing hefty damage (though our jab is faster), and if we're recovering, Eruption can get us if Ike knows the timing (it can even kill if he was charging it.) If Ike is using Tempest, he'll try to push us away from the ledge with its windboxes and since it gives Ike a little bit of height he can go off-stage with it and still get back.

When we get Ike off-stage, his recovery will depend on where he is with respect to the ledge. He'll use Aether from below (we can pester him with Reflector if he goes up, trust me the Ike can't do anything against this), and if he uses Aether Drive it lets him travel diagonally so be wary of the sword hitting you in the middle of the stage. From above, he'll want to use side-b to get back on, either sweetspotting the ledge or letting momentum propel him on stage. I don't know for sure if fsmash can hit him out of it if he aims for the ledge, or if we can read it with dair. If he goes for on-stage he'll be stuck in freefall until he lands, so if we can reach him (say on FD) it'll be a free grab or even jump-cancel usmash if we can hit that. Another option is to interrupt his side-b by getting hit by it off-stage. It's a good idea at low percents because if he's far enough he can't recover even with follow-up Aether. Be wary though that if you try to do it at high percents it can kill, and this won't work if he's using Side-B 2 or, if he's close enough to the ledge, Aether Drive (diagonal Aether.) Side-B 3 I haven't tested for recovery but it's slow so it doesn't get much use.

Ike has a counter, and it's one of the stronger counters knockback wise. Default counter hits hard, I already covered paralyzing counter, and his third counter has a bit more startup but kills much earlier than default. If you want to punish him, mix up your timings to catch him off guard if he counters a lot, and especially keep your grab game on point.

Ike gets a lot off a grab, dthrow sends you up which he'll follow with fair or uair depending on your DI, and Aether at low percents. Fthrow and bthrow are used (by me anyway) to send characters off-stage so they'll see more use near the ledge, and uthrow isn't that useful since dthrow does it better IMO, but Ike might use it to avoid staling if he's been using dthrow a lot. Dthrow can kill around 150% fresh, so be careful.

Ike can't effectively punish lasers from a distance so use them to rack up damage from afar. I highly recommend you pick stages like FD, Smashville and Duck Hunt against Ike. Less platforms give him less maneuverability, and the length of those stages let you stay grounded which is highly beneficial.

You pop Ike in the air, he doesn't have many option. If he's defensive and goes for air dodge or a counter, bait it and retaliate with uair or your aerial of choice that can hit. If he's offensive he'll probably come swinging down with nair because of how its hitbox circles around him, or fair due to it reaching the bottom near the end of the animation. More likely than not though, Ike will play defensive. Take into consideration his DI and playstyle when coming up with a way to manipulate his actions, and keep him airborne as much as possible.

Don't be reckless, as Ike can tack on ~25% with a grab and an aerial, and finish him off as quick as you can. The longer you let Ike live, the more he'll enjoy the benefits of rage. Rage gives his kill moves a boost, and can flip a match around if you're both at high percents. Falco can't afford to get punished by Ike, so play patient because Ike can't be reckless either, since most of his kill options have enough endlag to get punished by spotdodge to grab or something similar.

I welcome anyone to discuss what I've said, as this is what I have to offer from playing both characters for a great period of time. I'm not the best Ike player by any means, but I know my way around him.

Edit: Upon some reflection, I've decided that laser and default Reflector are our best tools for edge-guarding Ike. If he attempts to side-b from a distance, fire lasers to interrupt his charge. Depending on how far away he is, this most assuredly shuts him down right there. If he's using Aether, take his current location into account. With default Aether, his best location is as far below the ledge as possible to grab onto it. You'll want to interrupt with Reflector as much as you can, it racks up damage for free and Ike can't do anything about it until you let him grab the ledge again. Don't get too close either; when he tosses his sword up the hitbox will push you too far away to hit him, so find the right distance. If he's using Aether Drive and recovering from below (think hugging the stage), he has to do it at the optimal angle. Too low and he'll miss; too close and on some stages he'll get caught under the lip or won't gain enough height. Too far and he'll miss, obviously. Stay on guard when an Ike is using Aether Drive, as the diagonal angle the sword is tossed means it can hit you a distance from the ledge.

Also, Ike has super armor in his recoveries; it'll take a strong attack to knock him out if you want the stage spike. Don't go for the bair unless you know the knockback is enough that it would kill normally, otherwise you'll just damage him and put yourself in a difficult position. Also, Ike can't use Aether to camp the ledge; after 6 uses without getting back on stage the Aether will simply fail to grab the ledge. Finally, take note of whether he tries to for a ledge regrab with Aether; that's your chance to run in, shield Aether and strike with anything from dsmash which launches him to where he can't recover, or maybe a low-angled ftilt or even uncharged fsmash if you've got the time.

Finally, Aether spikes coming down so be careful; if Ike hits you with his side-B in the air he can immediately follow-up with his up-B.
 
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Arrei

Smash Lord
Joined
Nov 25, 2014
Messages
1,303
I don't know enough about how Falco plays to really chime in on that angle, but I'll just pop in with a few things about recovering. I'm sure many of you know Ike likes to edgeguard by standing at the edge charging Eruption to go for the ledge snap vulnerability kill, as it's almost always a kill if it lands. Any time you use Fire Bird against us, you're taking a gamble with a deck stacked against you because it's so telegraphed, making it prime Eruption bait. Phantasm is a much better option, especially since you can either aim for the ledge or at Ike himself, but be mindful of how long Ike's been charging - at half charge the attack reaches its full strength and Ike will have super armor when he brings the sword down, so don't try to challenge the Eruption head-on if he's reached that point already. Also consider mixing it up by aiming a blaster shot at Ike as you fall or, after using Phantasm several times, fake him out with Fire Bird from below instead. The former may not disrupt Ike enough to totally avoid damage if Ike is at low damage since I think doing it will leave Fire Bird as your only option and it is still pretty slow, but interrupting his charge makes it a hell of a lot less lethal, while the latter is all up to mindgames - if it works, you'll be safe, but if he doesn't fall for it you might be in big trouble. Just whatever you do, do NOT try to go above us, because Falco's getting roasted by Eruption's vertical coverage that way.
 
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PyroTakun

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jan 1, 2013
Messages
306
Location
Seattle, WA
NNID
Ta-kun
I've had to play against a couple Falcos and Lasers are definitely your B&B this MU. Try to space yourself and stop approaches/ find openings with lasers then follow up by popping Ike up into the air (he can't do much if he's above you.) For edgeguarding your Deflector is a good tool for Quickdraw. If Ike recovers too high, you can space it out right and land a D-Air. The timing has to be good, because Ike has super armor on Aether up to the point where he grabs the sword after throwing it.

Ike will most likely try to go for grabs since that's his best way of racking up damage. His D-Throw has guaranteed follow ups at lower percents no matter what your DI is, and even at Mid percents. If you find yourself getting grabbed just make sure you switch around your DI so the Ike player doesn't get free follow ups. D-Tilt is similar to D-Throw for Ike in the sense that it pops you up and allows him to get an aerial in, so that's something to look out for as well. If you're approaching Ike, I'd recommend doing it from the ground. U-Smash, U-Tilt, and Ike's aerials (N-Air, F-Air, and B-Air) give him a lot of options for aerial approaches. As for recovery, Phantasm is the best option you have even if you get predictable with it. Fire Bird is seen from a mile away and is easily hit by Eruption, walk off F-Airs or D-Airs, and counter. Also make sure you don't stay around the edge too long, cus Ike's Ledge Trump + B-Air is no joke.

Overall I think this MU is fairly even. 55-45 in Falco's favor would be my input.
 

BlueBirdE

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 27, 2008
Messages
252
Taking advantage of ikes recovery is crucial. A well spaced reflector for up b over the ledge, a laser for side b from afar and if they do space their up b to avoid reflector thats the time you go off stage for bair,fair,dair, or side b if ur gutsy for spike/stage spike.

Adding to this even though eruption hits past the ledge for recovering ive had times where i would drop down for firebird get hit by the eruption and di towards the stage and tech the side.
 
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Arrei

Smash Lord
Joined
Nov 25, 2014
Messages
1,303
Sometimes Eruption stage spikes you rather than sending you forward or straight up. The angle you get hit at probably has something to do with it but it seems to be rare enough that it's all about luck whether you get the chance to tech or not.
 

BlueBirdE

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 27, 2008
Messages
252
I need to mess with it more but I think you have to hug the stage. It also could depend on how charged the move is and distance from the ledge. Ill mess with it more and provide a clip if I find out anything
 

Arrei

Smash Lord
Joined
Nov 25, 2014
Messages
1,303
My guess is, Ike has to be positioned so the attack hangs as far over the ledge as it can, and you have to be recovering from just the right angle hugging the stage that when you get hit, you're considered to be on the back side of the hitbox rather than the front. Then you get sent diagonally towards the stage rather than away, immediately slamming your face into it. And only the full power hitbox sends opponents at that angle, so getting hit by a partial charge will just send you straight up.

If all that is the case, then obviously it can happen on sloped stages where recoveries will hug the slope up the ledge, but I'm curious as to whether this scenario can take place on a walled stage or if the wall prevents you from getting close enough to be considered behind the hitbox.
 

Dark Dire Wolf

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 25, 2010
Messages
419
I need help against Ike in the neutral. I can't hit him before he hits me, simply because of the reach disadvantage Falco has. How exactly do I get in range?
 
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