Meta SSB4 Falco Matchup Discussion 13 - Ganondorf - Coveted Winds

[Ffamran]

Welcome to the Ganondorf matchup discussion. @_Magus_ isn't here, but he wanted to be tagged for this when the Ganondorf discussion was made.

All credit goes to Quas-quas for the original images.​

Here's a link to the main post: SSB4 Falco Matchup Discussion - Main Post. This will be more for general matchup discussions like making a suggestion and such. Or, you could head over to the social thread and ask there: Where We Prefer The Air And The Points Don't Matter!. Or PM me if you really have to, but don't make a habit out of it.

Oh, and if you guys and girls want to play each other to have fun or learn about the MU, check out the NNID and FC sharing thread on the Falco boards: http://smashboards.com/threads/anyone-want-to-exchange-nnids-or-friend-codes.386513/.

There's also the regular NNID and FC sharing threads in the Online discussion if you just want to ask anyone to play.

Notice: Some rules, guidelines, and tips. Some of these are a given since you joined any forum.

1. Be respectful of each other. No insults, no trolling, no flaming, or any of that nonsense.
2. Be aware that some of the discussions can and will be old, so don't call out someone for "wrong" data if that post was referring to say, patch 1.0.3 stuff.
3. Be impartial; learn to see things from other sides. So, don't boast about all the advantages. Notice weaknesses and strengths from both parties.
4. Stay on topic.
5. Have fun.

And here is a frame speed ranking of their regular attacks and grabs - no Specials yet for Falco, sorry - to clear up on things since sometimes a move may feel slow, but it's actually fast and vice versa. Plus more information doesn't always hurt. Data from List of attacks/grabs from fastest initial frame to slowest (Frame Speed), the Complete Hitbox/Frame Data For Every Character, and the Ganon Frame Data Smash 4 Edition by @Big O (this is were you can find Ganondorf's Special and other frame data like his roll, ledge attack, etc.) threads.

As of patch 1.1.4.

Move Hit Frames||
Jab|2-4, 10-12, 17-21, 22-26, 27-31, 32-36, (infinite), 41-42|8-9
Dash Attack|8-11 or 12-19|10-19
Ftilt|6-8|10-12
Utilt|5-9, 12-16|81-84
Dtilt|7-9|10-12
Side Smash|17-19 or 20-20|21-26
Up Smash|7-12, 13-20|21-23
Down Smash|7-9|15-18, 35-38
Nair|3-5, 6-9, 14-17, 21-24|7-13, 20-32
Fair|10-13, 14-17, 18-21, 22-25, 26-27, 28-29|14-19
Bair|4-5 or 6-12|10-12
Uair|7-11|6-16
Dair|16-19 or 20-31|16-18
Grab|8-9|7-8
Dash Grab|10-11|11-12
Pivot Grab|11-12|10-11

 

[A2ZOMG]

I don't think I have a definite ratio for this matchup yet, but I can state the obvious.

*Falco juggles Ganon REALLY well and gets really good reward for it. Especially because Ganon does not move very quickly horizontally, Falco has an easy time pressuring Ganon with his high jumps and aerials.
*Ganondorf is pretty easy for Falco to edgeguard with F-air and D-air.
*Ganondorf outranges Falco and does more damage, and has Flame Choke combos on him in this game.
*Ganon's juggles and edgeguards are...well...destructive.

W/e I'll call it even for now. Matchup afaik doesn't really change on customs. Ganon gets Dark Fists to stop edgeguards, but Falco gets Void Reflector to perform better in neutral and get even more juggle opportunities. Not sure what else to say on that subject.

 

[Ffamran]

To me, it's basically two punishers going at it. Whoever makes the most mistakes will lose. Falco will hit faster, weaker, and move faster, but Ganondorf will hit harder, slower, and move slower. At the same time, it's not like Fox vs. Ganondorf or Sonic vs. Falco where you have two characters who can rack up damage fast, instead, it's more of who will outplay the other in this game, especially since Falco can't really camp compared to Link or Pit - Ganondorf will definitely punish a trigger happy Falco.

Falco does not ever want to recover too close to the ledge and low since Ganondorf can just drop down and use Dair and take a stock whenever. Run off Fair or Uair or a stage spike with Bair would be safer options. At the same time, Falco can do that to, but he has to be careful about Ganondorf's Uair, Dark Dive, Flame Choke, and Nair or else Falco could risk being put into disadvantage, take unnecessary damage, lose a stock through stage spikes or whatever. It might be better for Falco to just run off Fair or stage spike Ganondorf with Bair.

Slow or not, Ganondorf will outrange Falco with his Ftilt and Dtilt. A Falco thinking he can just run in and go pheasant on Ganondorf is going to get destroyed. In terms of boxing, Ganondorf takes the role of a slugger who hits hard and can end stocks with one move and can tank hits or a counterpuncher who exploits every mistake. Falco takes on more of an out-boxer style where he wants to stay out of Ganondorf's range and space well to damage him. At the same time, he can be a counterpuncher too - a weaker one, but a faster one.

This'll be one good ol' match of fisticuffs... and kicks too since well... yeah...

 

[JmacAttack]

I agree with you two, it's even. Neither character walls the other out, and neither one has options that shut down the matchup, so both must me mindful of the other's options in both the neutral and edgeguarding. Falco must be careful while edgeguarding Ganondorf, because Ganon's up-air is an excellent counter-gimp tool. Falco needs a good read or a good punish to kill Ganon, though, while Ganon can kill with a tilt, or with an Fsmash at mid percent. Falco isn't as light as Fox, but he's no heavyweight. Still, Ganon has some very laggy moves that Falco could easily punish, so it evens out. Falco does have lasers, but must be careful not to use them too close to Ganon, since if he gets in with an aerial punish, the situation either becomes an edgeguard or outright death.

Falco has good recovery, so he's likely to survive anything that doesn't kill him outright. However, he has to be extremely careful about using his up-B, since it's easy for Ganon to spike it.

With customs, Ganon gains a good and less gimpable recovery, as well as an easier (and less damaging) tool for approaching over lasers, while Falco gains more protections against edgeguarding as well as a more damaging reflector. Potentially different lasers, although his defaults are probably better against Ganon than both of his alts. Once again, still even.

 

[NotAnAdmin]

Ganon has some kind of weird hold on my brain when I see him.
I always want to rush in and then I get a boot to the beak, but I digress.

Outsmarting and out-"fast"ing Ganon is the best idea, Ganon's slow, but he's like a wall.
Once he plants himself somewhere on stage he isn't going anywhere unless you play smart. Ganon will usually space you out with ftilt's and dtilts and throw out a couple Choke grabs or down b's.

This is a MU where lasers should be used, not only to catch up on % if Ganon gets his hands on you, but also to force approach and to annoy him.
Making Ganon try to keep up with you is the best way to win. Falco can make short work of Ganon with his fair off stage

Overall a very fundamental based MU, spacing on both ends are very important, but more so for Falco, he CANNOT let himself get thrown for a loop by Ganon.
I agree with you all though, 50-50 even.

 

[Xinc]

This is probably an even matchup. Falco has an easier time managing the combos, laser game, and is generally faster, but Ganondorf punishes far harder. Ganon doesn't die early, but hits like at truck, meaning Falco will die at earlier percents than Ganondorf will. Ganondorf also has a good edge guard game, which means Falco might have trouble off-stage, even disregarding the buff in recovery.

 

[Captain Rage Quit 69]

Yo since when did we have a Ganondorf thread :O

Does Ganondorf have anything to punish lasers from far? If not, we have something to force approach with, which we can then try to punish. Keepaway is the name of the game here, since Ganondorf hits like a truck going 90 on the freeway, while Falco needs to juggle him like a clown juggles the family jewels.

We're faster, hooray. That means we inherently have the advantage because, so long as we don't eat a jab that gives us a million percent, we can play defensive all we want.

For the love of all that is holy, don't do something that can get punished otherwise we're looking at 20% off one hit or something similar.

Gimps everywhere, Ganon stomp, Falco fair, stage spikes from both sides. Ganon won't make it back if we send him far enough to the side, which makes our lives easier. Can he punish side-B to the ledge? Maybe with a well-timed utilt or dtilt or something?

Assuming customs-meta, Ganon has Wizard's Dropkick and an up-B that can hit us from a great distance from the ledge, and an up-B to punish approaches from above (but he has usmash with no end lag so ). We get Void Reflector, Fast Firebird, and maybe Explosive Blaster if we have a use for it.

I think it's 60/40 Falco at the moment, so long as we don't try to be the aggressor unless we have him offstage.

 

[Ffamran]

Ganondorf can tank projectiles, especially if they don't do a lot of knockback. Considering the end lag of Falco's default Blaster, it's more of an inconvenience as he slowly and menacingly makes his way towards Falco. Burst Blaster could work since Falco can rack up damage and move away fast enough. Then there's Explosive Blaster which might not be all that useful since Ganondorf would recover low and ignore it.

With customs, I think Ganondorf can sail above Falco's lasers with Wizard's Dropkick, but it might not be necessary like in other matchups for Ganondorf since Ganondorf can play hopscotch and slowly make his way to Falco one hop at a time. For recovering, I don't know since not a lot of Falco vs. Ganondorf footage is up or known. Speaking of which, there's this - it's For Glory, so some of the stuff in there might not work offline/locally or both players could have responded better - that was posted a while ago in the Falco video thread: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qMINsiJv9Uk.

And there's this recent one - also online which explains why Pon at a Falco Phantasm once while just crouching and waiting to probably Dtilt Falco - with Pon's Ganondorf vs. an unknown Falco: https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=uWkQ6z06m9s. Although Falco shows up at 5:13, the entire video is just pure awesome.

 

[adom4]

So after the Falco buffs, do you guys think anything notable changed in the matchup or is it relatively the same?

 

[Nessimator]

I think Falco wins this MU.

1. Falco has better frame data, air speed, and slightly better run speed, so he can outplay Ganon in the neutral.
2. Ganon is pretty easy combo food for Falco. He's big and heavy, and in my personal experience Falcoo tends to do pretty well against most large heavyweights.
3. Falco can gimp Ganon pretty well with dair and fair, and if that wasn't enough his down smash can be deadly if by the ledge at above 90% due to it's angle.
4. Since Ganon is very slow lasers can actually be useful for once too. They could force an approach in this MU.

Of course, Falco still has to be careful to not get caught by Ganon's side B shenanigans, and Ganon hits very hard which can be scary for a light weight like Falco. The Ganon stomp is also something to watch out for while recovering too, but at least Falco can B reverse up B to mix it up, or he can even just side B up high.

60:40 Falco's favor

 

[Snipnigth]

This matchup is in Falcos favor definitely, but you have to be very cautious, Ganon can kill Falco very early, but Falco can run circles around him and combo him all day, if you dont get punished with his hard hits youll be ok

 

[theONEjanitor]

Falco destroys Ganon just like everybody else lol
one of the few characters who is both slower and gets combo'd harder than Falco.
Ganon is a gimmicky character, anad once you learn the gimmicks, his neutral becomes virtually non existent. Look out for the low cooldown of nair and upsmash, be careful when trying to punish these moves, and also look out for side b command grab (tech this). Ganon is terrible at falling and if you get him in the air, he should either die or take like 60% damage. Ganon has one of the worst recoveries in the game as well and Falco has a very easy time edgeguarding him. The main thing Ganon has going for him is that he can kill you very, very early with random stray hits. He also does a lot of damage to shield so watching your shield health. This is an awful matchup for ganon, close to 70/30 imo, mainly because of how hard falco can gimp him.