Meta SSB4 Falco Matchup Discussion 12 - Rosalina & Luma - To Infinity and Beyond!

[Ffamran]

Welcome to the Rosalina & Luma matchup discussion.

All credit goes to Quas-quas for the original images.​

Here's a link to the main post: SSB4 Falco Matchup Discussion - Main Post. This will be more for general matchup discussions like making a suggestion and such. Or, you could head over to the social thread and ask there: Where We Prefer The Air And The Points Don't Matter!. Or PM me if you really have to, but don't make a habit out of it.

Oh, and if you guys and girls want to play each other to have fun or learn about the MU, check out the NNID and FC sharing thread on the Falco boards: http://smashboards.com/threads/anyone-want-to-exchange-nnids-or-friend-codes.386513/.

There's also the regular NNID and FC sharing threads in the Online discussion if you just want to ask anyone to play.

Notice: Some rules, guidelines, and tips. Some of these are a given since you joined any forum.

1. Be respectful of each other. No insults, no trolling, no flaming, or any of that nonsense.
2. Be aware that some of the discussions can and will be old, so don't call out someone for "wrong" data if that post was referring to say, patch 1.0.3 stuff.
3. Be impartial; learn to see things from other sides. So, don't boast about all the advantages. Notice weaknesses and strengths from both parties.
4. Stay on topic.
5. Have fun.

And here is a frame speed ranking of their regular attacks and grabs - no Specials yet, sorry - to clear up on things since sometimes a move may feel slow, but it's actually fast and vice versa. Plus more information doesn't always hurt. Data from List of attacks/grabs from fastest initial frame to slowest (Frame Speed) and the Complete Hitbox/Frame Data For Every Character threads.

Disclaimer: Luma moves 1 frame after Rosalina - it's accounted for in the hit frames, so if Luma's Jab 1 is frame 3-4, then it's actually frame 4-5. I'm not sure on their Rapid Jab and Finisher frames even after looking it up on @Dantarion's data dump. And there's the syncing of their Jab that I don't really know. As of patch 1.1.4.

Move Hit Frames|||Luma
Jab|2-4, 10-12, 17-21, 22-26, 27-31, 32-36, (infinite), 41-42|8-10, 21-23, 32-34 (GentleRosa)|4-5, 6-7, 9-13 (GentleLuma)
Dash Attack|8-11 or 12-19|6-9, 17-19|6-9
Ftilt|6-8|7-9|8-11
Utilt|5-9, 12-16|9-17|3-3 or 4-5 or 6-10
Dtilt|7-9|5-8|8-13
Side Smash|17-19 or 20-20|16-18|17-18
Up Smash|7-12, 13-20|8-16|10-12 or 13-17
Down Smash|7-9|6-7 or 17-18|7-8 or 19-20
Nair|3-5, 6-9, 14-17, 21-24|9-34 or 35-46|3-6 or 26-29
Fair|10-13, 14-17, 18-21, 22-25, 26-27, 28-29|11-25, 27-28|11-15
Bair|4-5 or 6-12|9-11|11-16
Uair|7-11|8-18 or 11-21 or 22-29|3-9
Dair|16-19 or 20-31|17-17 or 18-22, or 23-25 or 26-32|8-13
Grab|8-9|6-7|N/A
Dash Grab|10-11|8-9|N/A
Pivot Grab|11-12|9-10|N/A

 

[SoundChow]

I think this a terrible match up for Falco. Falco isn't a full on offensive character that can apply lots of pressure with quick attacks, instead he has to play defensively, which is something Rosalina excels at.
First she has a Luma shield that makes it difficult hitting her. It's also hard to land hits on Rosalina because her roll is quick and makes it hard to predict where she'll land.
In the air it's hard to hit her because of her unpredictable air dodge and if you happen to be above Rosalina, you don't have anything to challenge her up-air.
A lot of other things make it a hard match-up for Falco. Grab follow-ups are difficult because Luma will just knock you away once your grab is finished. She also has incredibly quick and powerful smash attacks that have lots of range, up-smash, down-smash, and f-smash being hard to punish because of Luma.
Falco is slow, doesn't have good range, and can't even force Rosalina to approach. I cant see the match-up being anything less than 70-30 for Rosalina.

 

[Zionaze]

I think I'm the only one who "enjoys" this mu.
Not that I ever faced any good Rosalinas but I feel like all you need to do is pop her in the air and you can just dish out a boat load of damage onto her.
Baiting her "invisible" airdodge is a must.
Lasers should only be used when Rosa charges her Luma shot.
Attacking Rosa From the sides allows you to strike at her blind spot effectively.
Using SH Phantasm places you in a highly advantages spot.
And killing luma should be your #1/2 priority. Going for the kill when Luma isn't there is preferred.

 

[Macchiato]

Neutral game
Luma will block the lasers and it forces Falco to approach and rosalina out ranges him. Her moves are all disjointed so challenging them will be in rosies favor. She will Nair in the beginning which auto cancels, falco really doesn't have much to stop this other that oos options. Her brick wall of jabs is also really hard to deal with and falco has to get hit to get out most the time due to Luma and rosie covering the rolling spots. Falco can however get luma KOed with a Bair which makes the MU easier. He'll be able to do oos options more easily. Though she still has those disjoints and he still has to approach due to GP. Falco just needs to to look for opportunities to punish

Edgeguarding
Rosalinas recovery doesn't have a Hitbox allowing Falco to easily gimp. A good dair or bair can easily get a fast gimp. Also I think dtilt hits below the edgeguard. Rosalina can also gimp Falco too with a dair due to the big disjoint. It stops both the recoveries. I think lumas nair stops the phantasm. On the ledge rosalina can jab with Luma to cover all landing options and uair to cover jumps.

Kill power
Here it really depends on stage, Falco really wants a stage with no platforms because rosalinas uair kills really fast. Her Uair can kill at like 50%, her smashes are also pretty strong and ranged. Falco just basically needs to camp for a bair which kills rosalina fast due to her light weight. His smashes require a hard read

Stages
Rosalina likes platforms. Falco does not

Who wins
Paletuna

Score
60-40 Rosalina and Luma

 

[Zionaze]

I feel like stages with platforms could go both ways since U-throw > Uair is a thing for Falco

 

[NotAnAdmin]

Falco has no hope on FD imo.
Rosy has too much stage control and the Luma can be used to pressure Falco to the point where it feels endless at almost all ends of the stage, he can't approach he can't force approach, his range is too short.
Maybe I'm exaggerating a bit, but I usually can't find an opening for Rosy without forcing my way through with a phantasm, and that can still get punished very easily.

At least on Battlefield I can move around the Luma and find way to kill it easier, yet Rosy's amazing air game bops you on the platforms, her range is just too good.

I want to say 60-40 Rosy's favor.

 

[Legato]

Just posted in the general match-up thread, not to be redundant, but here are some tricks that I found important after playing a few decent rosalinas online.

You can shoot her with lasers if you time the jump right and hit her head. This is a big deal since in my matches I was actually able to force an approach from them. Other than that, I think I only won about 30% of my matches against them, and it required very patient camping. Don't get too comfortable with the lasers, but don't be afraid to use them. After some of the rosalinas grew keen to my laser game I had to sh backwards and laser then grab the ledge as a mix up that messed with her approaches.

I never won a match if I got killed first. Taking the first stock is nearly imperative since it will pressure the rosalina to want to approach you more often if you camp her, which makes the match up a lot easier to deal with.

As stated above, gimping is the name of the game, time your bair/dair well and you will profit. Don't grab the ledge to edge guard her, instead stay near the ledge because many rosalumas will angle to grab the edge and you get a free bair if you take the ledge from her. If she tries to go above you, use fair or uair. If she launches luma while trying to get back on the stage, use reflector or even lasers.

 

[Ffamran]

I edited the first post with Luma's hit frames and I omitted the Rapid Jab because I don't really know how to link it because Rosalina & Luma can Gentleman their Jab. This was the same thing with Captain Falcon and it's probably going to be the same issue with Little Mac.

 

[Leg]

I used to main Megaman, and my bestfriend played Rosalina. So after months of that, playing Rosalina as Falco isn't nearly as hard, lmao.

To make it short,
Stay grounded when she has luma.
Separate them with Bair or Fsmash.
Rush her down with aerials when Luma isn't around.

Now to go in detail,

Rosaluma = Rosalina and Luma together
Rosalina and Luma = separate.

From my experiance, a forward smash on Rosaluma, whether it's well spaced to hit Rosalina or not, will always hit Luma, and the sheer knockback normally knocks Luma off stage. A bair often does the same thing at the risk of a grab. Our lasers stop Luma from launching in it's tracks, and even worst, we can reflect Luma back at Rosalina. The only thing I wouldn't recommend is approaching Rosaluma with aerials, as you will nearly always lose out. If Rosaluma approaches you with aerials, Utilt/Usmash punish will separate them easily. However it will rarely kill Luma.

After Luma is disposed or displaced, we have to keep our momentum. Without her hitbox, Rosalina is easy to approach, given her large frame, and floaty nature. It's even easier to punish her in the air, because our aerials are faster than her's without Luma. Utilt and Uair will be your juggling tools of choice.

At low percents I've realized Dash attack>Full hop Fair>2nd jump Fair Is a good string to displace Luma and carry Rosa off stage. She cant react out of it with nair because Luma will be elsewhere, and her other aerials will whiff or be too slow to prevent the 2nd fair. Also Rosalina is too floaty to FC Dair out of Dthrow, so if you want FC Dairs, you'll have to read for them.

When it comes to Rosalina off stage, go after her. Her recovery practically ensures she'll make it back, so if you want her dead, you'll have to kill her yourself. Luckily shes pretty floaty and huge, so hitting a bair or even a dair wont be hard. Time your second jump. If you want to wait for her, you can hang on ledge and force her to steal it from you, and if she's particularly aggressive and likes to follow up ledgesteal with an areial, you get an easy phantasm spike off her. Spikes on Rosalina are normally death, since her recovery is mostly horizontal.

I'll try to upload a match when I get the chance.

 

[BltzZ]

Oh lord this matchup is Hell for falco. I did a smash ladder today against a Rosa main and mannnn. It sucks that we cannot follow up our grab attacks because of Luma. Her roll animation Is quick fast. And when you're coming back to the ledge god forbid you miss the ledge or try to phantasm through them. DO NOT try it lol.

Rosa stands roll distance from the ledge while Luma ledge guards only option is to get up attack which Rosa can F smash you once you hit luma. It's 60-40 Rosalinas favor. I was able to take a match on battlefield thanks to platforms but lost third match at halberd.the laser almost did my dirty work. I Fsmashed Rosa and as she was recovering I tried to gimp but luma tickled my insides.

 

[Ffamran]

I wished there was a way to duplicate post... Oh well, quoting over will work.

Domino's Falco vs. GameProdigy's Rosalina: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L3Z63Tj_n2A. Might want to check the Rosalina MU discussion and learn more about this MU since this is probably Falco's most difficult MU. Reflector Void does knock Luma out and cause it to tumble, but the end lag won't let you act until frame 65. If you want to use it, you better hit Rosalina and Luma or somehow get Luma really far from Rosalina before using it. Side Smash also works, but it's slow. I bet Bair would work, but how Falco will land a small hitbox like that on a small hurtbox depends. Dash Attack probably works, but Falco's slow, so there's that. Dtilt and Down Smash would work if they could hit Luma while Ftilt might not. Not sure about Utilt, Nair, and Uair or the safety of Up Smash, Fair, and Dair. In this MU with any character, decide whether you're going after Luma or not. If you want to go after Luma before Rosalina, then do so. If you're going strictly against Rosalina, then focus on her. Don't hesitate.

This might be the wrong place for this but I'm also discussing the match in the video somewhat. It seemed to me like Domino wasn't sure on what kills the Luma or what options to go for when trying to cover both. I think one of the worst thigs against Rosa is to try and maintain a hit box out as she can easily just wait you out and punish. I also feel like Falco is a character that needs to kill Luma as it will just get in the way most of the time and could turn a follow up attempt into a death on Falco.

When it comes to Void Reflector the thing that I like do do with it the most is use it on reaction to Rosa trying to just Jab with Luma to gain space or force you out. From the right position it will hit both and either knock Luma off stage or put it on the ground where a dash attack can just carry it off or further away. Also Void is a good tactic for Rosas who like to air dodge a lot as you can condition them that it's a safe option to avoid a follow up from Up Throw for example and just wait for them to air dodge and kick the Reflector as soon as they disappear and it should kill them fairly easily near the top given her weight. Something I didn't know until watching this match is that the custom star bit can actually be reflected. I just assumed that becuase of the normal ones it couldn't but I'll have to keep that in mind for a Rosa who just tried to depend on that over jabbing for space.

When it comes to moves that kill Luma, I think Falco is one of the best honestly. Dash Attack is amazing for killing Luma as it launches them up and away so Luma has to fall to a surface before it can act. Once I get them separated Dash Attack is my go to move either kill Luma or push it away to follow up with something else. Also Falco's Nair and Fair are good tools for follow ups in this MU because if you aim for the Luma and Rosa air dodges the Luma will extend the hit boxes which will make it so you can hit Rosa as she reappears. Another thing that I will do is F-Smash on the Luma with Rosa behind it to extend the hit box and potentially catch her trying to act too fast OoS.

Besides his attacks, his throws are amazing at either disrupting or out right killing the Luma. Down Throw is good if your decently close to the Ledge and the Luma is in front and close to you. Back Throw is good if your back is at the Ledge and Luma is behind you as it will catch it at more range then the others. Forward Throw is really good if Luma is in front of you but not close enough for Down as Rosa will hit it and knock it off. However, Up Throw is only good at disrupting the Luma and putting Rosa above you which could give you time for a Dash Attack or F-Smash to kill the Luma.

I think it's also alright to switch up targets depending in the situation. Like if you condition the Rosa that you just want to kill Luma and then go and chase her for a follow up it might catch her off guard. But yeah you cannot hesitate on which target you are going for as you can likely just miss both. And I say this as a person who got 2nd yesterday to a Rosa where I basically through away my chance to reset the bracket on hesitations, missing opportunities to kill Luma, or not capitalizing enough when Luma was dead. But imo I think Falco is one of the better character for dealing with Rosa.

 

[McDareth]

Oh, sorry about having that in the wrong thread. But yeah I personally feel like Falco is one of the better characters against Rosa due to the tools he has to kill Luma quickly, especially with Customs.

 

[pbjezgoud]

This MU is pretty good for Falco. He has a lot of moves that KO early. Bthrown can KO on edge at 95%.

His Bair and his Fair KO pretty early as well.

Patience is the Key to this matchup.

 

[Nessimator]

This MU is pretty good for Falco. He has a lot of moves that KO early. Bthrown can KO on edge at 95%.

His Bair and his Fair KO pretty early as well.

Patience is the Key to this matchup.

Are you sure? I can see him killing Rosa at crazy low %s, but in the neutral things get ugly. The problem I see is that Rosa has much better spacing tools in terms of speed, hit-box size, and priority. Her D-tilt out-ranges Falco's, her F-tilt has more knock-back than Falco's, and her jab is miles better than Falco's. Luma will sometimes take the shots from your blaster while trying to throw her, so maybe one laser fails to hit allowing her to act out of hit-stun faster and not get comboed by somethings such as Up-throw to Up-air for example. Her floatyness and light weight also make her difficult to combo. Half of the time she can easily jump out of rapid jab and punish for free too.
I need a more in-depth explanation as to why this is in Falco's favor.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

To all Falcos out there, the Rosalina sub-forum has a match-up discussion thread all set up to analyze Rosalina's match-up against Falco. Got anything to share for the Rosalina vs. Falco match-up? Then head to the following thread link...

http://smashboards.com/threads/415283/

In terms of the rules, be sure to go to the directory thread.

http://smashboards.com/threads/404194/

 

[M@v]

Played this mu a few times on Anther's ladder over the course of this week.


.....how does Falco get down from the air safe at all ;_; Fair, nairs, and side bs can only do so much.

 

[Ffamran]

Played this mu a few times on Anther's ladder over the course of this week.


.....how does Falco get down from the air safe at all ;_; Fair, nairs, and side bs can only do so much.

Let's see, poor air speed, falls fast, lightweight, Falco Phantasm's half hitbox, and no aerial that covers his entire body. Oh, and disjoints from the space goddess. Yay... Rosalina and (customs and default) Palutena are the worse. Don't even start about how Falco recovers in this MU. At least Rosalina has a similar problem.

This MU would be made better if Falco could at least harass Luma by shooting at it. Sure, it doesn't hit Rosalina, but being able to stun and damage Luma at range is great. Shielding would do nothing as Luma is generally in front of Rosalina. Now, if Falco manages to hit Rosalina, then he gets to harass her as well with projectiles that spamming Gravitational Pull probably can't stop Falco - he can stutter his lasers and choose to fire whenever. Buuuuuut nope. We have 59 frames of end lag on the ground and 50 frames of end lag in the air for Blaster. Meanwhile, Fox with his 40 frames of end lag for both default and Impact Blaster.

Also, it would also be better if his Ftilt could cause Luma to tumble. It doesn't unless you land a kill hit on Luma. Utilt will whiff the second hit if Luma's at idle and Dtilt's disjoint and Down Smash can't reliably hit Luma because of Luma's idle animation moving him around. That means Falco has to be in Rosalina and Luma's face if he wants to do something. Sure, landing a Side Smash is great, but that's a frame 17 move. Jabbing Luma means Falco has to commit to a full jab to cause it to tumble. Same with Up Smash - you have to commit.

Anyway, fun fact of the day: pheasants, like chickens, can run at around 8-10 miles per hour; ducks run about 5. For flying, pheasants cruise at 27 to 38 mph, but can reach 60 mph in a burst. So, if this translated to Falco who is a pheasant and not a falcon, he would have average running speed. So like, sustained speeds and not sprinting, Falco would be somewhere in the middle. Reality: he's slower than an obese man, Wario. I don't know about air speed, but it would be something like average to slow, but high air speed acceleration. Reality: slow air speed and average air speed acceleration with Falco Phantasm, like Fox Illusion, being his burst movement for both air and ground. It would be a neat thing for Falco to have the highest air speed acceleration even if he has to take a hit to his already slow air speed.

 

[M@v]

As a fox main, trust me on this one; the reduced laser end lag and increased mobility over Falco doesn't help him much in this MU. I'm extremely confident saying this is Fox's worst matchup, and although its still bad for him, I think Falco at least does better in it than Fox. At the very least Falco's aerials are amazing when Rosa is in the air, and he can win most air battles vs her (Unless she's below him obviously). And unlike Fox, he can easily convert an offstage Rosa into a stock with bair, fair, nair, or a dair if you get a great read. Fox's shine can only help setup for an onstage hit in this mu (shine her, rush back to the ledge or stage to hit again), and a nair won't kill her until a pretty high percent. And even though Falco's lasers don't do much, at least they can stop luma for a split second unlike fox's.

I think the change that would make the matchup so much better is either making ftilt stun luma as @ Ffamran mentioned, or my idea was making shine stun her. If either was the case, Falco would have a super safe spacing tool on the ground vs her.

 

[Ffamran]

What makes Luma tumble anyway? I should look into that... Well, for Fox, low end lag on his Blaster now doesn't really do much since it's not causing hit stun unlike Sheik's Needle Storm, but in this matchup and other matchups, it's annoying and safer to use to annoy people. People don't like being far away and still taking chip damage. For some people, they panic which is detrimental, especially against heavy projectile characters like Link or the unique damage over time fighter himself, Olimar.

Now, if Falco's Blaster had lower end lag, it would be safer for him to harass people which helps in this matchup when Falco lacks Fox's speed to run around and make Rosalina guess where he'll go. Fox wins in the aspect of his neutral is a bit more flexible compared to Falco, but loses, as you said in being able to edgeguard Rosalina which should be easy since her Launch Star doesn't have a hitbox. In a way, Falco trades neutral for a stronger advantage while Fox trades advantage for strong neutral. Falco is based on Fox, so they both have similar issues because of their physics. Unfortunately, because of game design choices, Falco's disadvantage is more of an issue when Fire Bird is just an inferior Fire Fox, Falco Phantasm's hitbox was halved, and Falco's lower overall mobility means he can't really escape much. Although Fox can't really escape in the air easily, he can stall his momentum and on the ground, he can run away much more easily. Still the worse MUs for the Star Fox crew... Maybe Star Wolf will show them how it's really done.

I don't know about Fox's Ftilt, but if their Ftilts could cause Luma to tumble at least after second hit, that would really help them as they can extend a quick hitbox out and literally poke Luma. Hmm... Is Fox's Dtilt hitbox large enough... I should check...

 

[Attila_]

To the best of my knowledge, knockback against luma works similarly to normal characters. When her percent is lower, she receives less knockback and only attacks with high knockback will send her into tumble. The more you hit her, the easiest if becomes to make her tumble.