Meta SSB4 Falco Matchup Discussion 11 - Lucario - Bread & Chocolate

[Ffamran]

Welcome to the Lucario matchup discussion.

All credit goes to Quas-quas for the original images.​

Here's a link to the main post: SSB4 Falco Matchup Discussion - Main Post. This will be more for general matchup discussions like making a suggestion and such. Or, you could head over to the social thread and ask there: Where We Prefer The Air And The Points Don't Matter!. Or PM me if you really have to, but don't make a habit out of it.

Oh, and if you guys and girls want to play each other to have fun or learn about the MU, check out the NNID and FC sharing thread on the Falco boards: http://smashboards.com/threads/anyone-want-to-exchange-nnids-or-friend-codes.386513/.

There's also the regular NNID and FC sharing threads in the Online discussion if you just want to ask anyone to play.

Notice: Some rules, guidelines, and tips. Some of these are a given since you joined any forum.

1. Be respectful of each other. No insults, no trolling, no flaming, or any of that nonsense.
2. Be aware that some of the discussions can and will be old, so don't call out someone for "wrong" data if that post was referring to say, patch 1.0.3 stuff.
3. Be impartial; learn to see things from other sides. So, don't boast about all the advantages. Notice weaknesses and strengths from both parties.
4. Stay on topic.
5. Have fun.

And here is a frame speed ranking of their regular attacks and grabs - no Specials yet, sorry - to clear up on things since sometimes a move may feel slow, but it's actually fast and vice versa. Plus more information doesn't always hurt. Data from Lucario's Technical Data: Frame Data, Attributes, and More! by @Jaxas and the Complete Hitbox/Frame Data For Every Character threads.

As of patch 1.1.4.

Move Hit Frames||
Jab|2-4, 10-12, 17-21, 22-26, 27-31, 32-36, (infinite), 41-42|6-8, 17-18, 35-37
Dash Attack|8-11 or 12-19|7-9 or 10-15
Ftilt|6-8|12-14 or 15-16
Utilt|5-9, 12-16|6-13
Dtilt|7-9|9-12
Side Smash|17-19 or 20-20|22-23 or 24-25
Up Smash|7-12, 13-20|15-17, 19-20 or 21-23
Down Smash|7-9|19-21
Nair|3-5, 6-9, 14-17, 21-24|8-11 or 22-29
Fair|10-13, 14-17, 18-21, 22-25, 26-27, 28-29|7-8
Bair|4-5 or 6-12|16-17
Uair|7-11|10-11 or 12-15
Dair|16-19 or 20-31|4-5, 11-12
Grab|8-9|6-7
Dash Grab|10-11|8-9
Pivot Grab|11-12|9-10

 

[Captain Rage Quit 69]

I've yet to fight a decent Lucario, so my b


He has aura, and how do you gimp him? He's got a counter.

His moves have a lot of startup right? Maybe we can exploit our faster attacks beating out his?

Lasers and Reflector, so no Aura Sphere spam. :T
Anyone wanna chip in?

 

[Ffamran]

Ahem. @ Rysir , do you have any thoughts on Lucario vs. Falco? You're the only Lucario main I know aside from the Lucarios on the Lucario boards.

 

[Rysir]

Ahem. @ Rysir , do you have any thoughts on Lucario vs. Falco? You're the only Lucario main I know aside from the Lucarios on the Lucario boards.

I don't have a whole ton of experience vs Falco due to scarcity but from what I have encountered Id probably say its a close match with some advantage to Falco due to reflector shenanigans.

Though Falco is pretty much a feathered hacky sack at low % against Lucario's Utilt and Nair slaps him around quite a bit as well as being vulnerable to reflector baiting and regrab combos.

And Lucario is pretty much immune to Falco's spikes till around 60%, Id say Falco's speed hurts him in the match up since lucario is faster and can push him around a lot even without aura sphere but Falco's aerials force defense since as far as I have seen there is not much Lucario can do in terms of anti air except aura sphere while Falco is in mid attack.


I'll just say its a 50-50 match up since both sides can bury each other. To finish this off I'll just say this:
-Reflector can be baited so do not panic spam it when a lucario is holding their aura sphere for a while because they want you to panic.
-Keep laser usage to a minimum as that downtime can earn you an aura sphere to the face or worse.
-Force palm is reflectable.
-Use Fair sparingly, it can be easily punished by Double team.
-There appears to be nothing Falco can do against Lucario's regrab combo so beware when both you and him are at 0%
-Don't try to contest a charging aura sphere, a lucario with his back to you and charging walls your grabs and dashes, just shoot him.

Thats about all the Rysir tips I can think of at the moment, if you knew all this already then that means this derpcario has more to learn!

 

[Zionaze]

Oh boy the joy in reflecting force palms This is one of those few matchups where neither can really exploit any dreaded weaknesses and Rage is a huge factor.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I think this matchup is Falco's favor 55/45, BUT Lucario's punishes can be insanely strong and alone keep him in the game. Assuming however you just simply play a good spacing game, Lucario struggles to find openings on Falco in the first place.

Lucario cannot safely throw Aura Sphere in midrange in this matchup. Don't bother trying to throw reflector while he's charging, just wait for the toss animation and reflect as appropriate. Really, as long as you do this correctly, Falco has control of the pace of the game with way better normals and has the advantage. Don't try too hard to force kills, just focus on spacing and juggling (he will rarely ever land Double Team on you for trying to juggle him in the air iirc, so don't worry too much about that) and making sure you have a good trigger finger on Reflector when he tosses Aura Sphere. Don't try to edgeguard him deep, just wait and see if he goes for the ledge or tries to land on stage and respond to those.

 

[Ffamran]

Falco's ability to kill and strong knockback makes this match up less frightening then say, Fox vs. Lucario or Sheik vs. Lucario since Lucario gets stronger and stronger with rage and the Aura while Fox and Sheik chipping damage will just make it worse. Falco on the other hand starts off strong and rage just adds to his natural strength while Lucario is well, Lucario.

One thing about a Lucario or anyone charging a projectile is that Reflector might be safer since if Lucario throws it, then Aura Sphere and Reflector will hit Lucario, otherwise, it's just Reflector hitting Lucario. Knowing each other's range will definitely be a major factor in this match up since neither of them can exploit each other. Falco's slow speed is mitigated by his frame data and raw damage while Lucario's frame data and damage is mitigated by the Aura, ability to juggle, and overall mobility.

Lucario along with Fox, Captain Falcon, and Ganondorf are one of Falco's even match ups where it depends purely on skill and whoever screws up since Falco punishes hard at any time while Lucario punishes hard later on.

One thing to note are run off aerials. If Lucario's not careful and decides to recover close to the ledge for some reason - ExtremeSpeed is godplayer like Villager's Balloon Trip at high percents. Falco will just run off Fair and gimp Lucario if Lucario panics or it's really early in the game. Late game, it might not matter and it definitely won't be worth it if Lucario knows and fires off an Aura Sphere, Force Palm, or Bair. Speaking of which, both have powerful Bairs, but Lucario's slower. I don't know the range on it, but it's powerful.

Staying under Lucario might be a problem since I believe Lucario has the fastest Dair. Sticking to the side or even going on top of Lucario to fast fall an aerial might be better choice... Until Lucario uses his Fair and Uair which have good range.

Reflector vs. Aura Sphere can cause both Falco and Lucario to panic because unlike other reflects, Falco's is fast and moves forward. A good read, and Falco can reflect Aura Sphere at pointblank while standing away from Lucario unlike Fox who can reflect anywhere, but Lucario could probably jump over it if it's about halfway from Final Destination. At the same time, baiting Reflector, as Rysir said, will kill Falco since he can't keep it out for long unlike Fox, Palutena, Zelda, and the Pits. And I think the end lag is a bit longer than Mario and Dr. Mario's.

 

[Zionaze]

Just a Falco tip in general. Learning how to reflect from behind is really useful in these kinds of mu's

 

[Ffamran]

The timing is so strict, though. Since by frame 6, after Reflector starts on frame 5, already has Reflector moving forward and not protecting Falco's back anymore. It's essentially like Wolf's Reflector I-frames.

Edit: Thanks a lot, internet. Now I get to add another double post to my name. Either that or Smashboards is starting to crash... again.

 

[BltzZ]

I've yet to fight a decent Lucario, so my b


He has aura, and how do you gimp him? He's got a counter.

His moves have a lot of startup right? Maybe we can exploit our faster attacks beating out his?

Lasers and Reflector, so no Aura Sphere spam. :T
Anyone wanna chip in?

I force lucario to recover low and I time a fair to annoy him it wont necessarily kill all the time though. For flashy purposes \Ii use dair XD. But most lucarios after getting hit by dair or fair from them recovering low will curve the recovery and land on stage. This is where we need to get back on stage quickly and punish if possible.

 

[Ffamran]

Long time, no see @ BltzZ .

How about a stage spike with Falco's Bair and Fair facing towards the stage?

There's also the Phantasm meteor that Lucario should be aware of. @Bonk! made a video on it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=lGSyxyPYl9Q.

And @Snipnigth found out about this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ffJebEF8dQs.

They're situational, but it's something to look out for like don't hang onto the ledge while Ike recovers low with Aether. Either you're going to get hit up or it'll meteor you down when Ike comes down with Aether.

Neither of them or anyone should recover onto the stage unless they know that their opponent won't be able to reach them like say, Lucario recovers to the opposite side of the stage and Ganondorf even with Wizard's Foot can't reach Lucario in time. If Falco messed up and Falco Phantasms onto the ledge, then that's a free punish. If Falco overshoots Fire Bird, then that's a punish. If Lucario lands onto the stage with Extreme Speed and doesn't end up with the lower end lag landing, then that's a punish. Neither of them want to land in front of each other since their Side Smashes are strong.

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

Lucario main here. When it comes to Falco there are a number of things I look out for:

• Falco's second Jab is far easier to DI out of the way compared to his rapid jab. So I try to get behind Falco or DAir him when hit by Jab 2.
• Lucario runs slightly faster than Falco.
• Falco has a strong keep away game, but if he can't land a kill with the spike, or one of his Smashes below 100% defensive Lucarios will shut down Falco's approaches easily.
• Lucario can easily harass Falcos that are forced to recover with their Side B with Aura Sphere (and perhaps even USmash if Falco lands onstage). Even if you reflect it if you're far enough you'll die anyway.
• If you are forced to use Fire Bird and Lucario is nearby expect to get hit by BAir or DAir.
• I think it is Lucario's favor 55:45, but it is early in the game and I could be wrong.

I will be happy to play any of you.

Edit: Also be weary of Lucarios that charge Aura Sphere with their backs facing the ledge at high %s. With perfect spacing it is almost impossible to punish it because how much Lucario is limiting your options (if they pay close attention to what you do from the ledge).