Meta SSB4 Falco Matchup Discussion 06 - Samus - A Space Pirate's Nightmare

[Ffamran]

Welcome to the Samus matchup discussion.

All credit goes to Quas-quas for the original images.​

Here's a link to the main post: SSB4 Falco Matchup Discussion - Main Post. This will be more for general matchup discussions like making a suggestion and such. Or, you could head over to the social thread and ask there: Where We Prefer The Air And The Points Don't Matter!. Or PM me if you really have to, but don't make a habit out of it.

Oh, and if you guys and girls want to play each other to have fun or learn about the MU, check out the NNID and FC sharing thread on the Falco boards: http://smashboards.com/threads/anyone-want-to-exchange-nnids-or-friend-codes.386513/.

There's also the regular NNID and FC sharing threads in the Online discussion if you just want to ask anyone to play.

Notice: Some rules, guidelines, and tips. Some of these are a given since you joined any forum.

1. Be respectful of each other. No insults, no trolling, no flaming, or any of that nonsense.
2. Be aware that some of the discussions can and will be old, so don't call out someone for "wrong" data if that post was referring to say, patch 1.0.3 stuff.
3. Be impartial; learn to see things from other sides. So, don't boast about all the advantages. Notice weaknesses and strengths from both parties.
4. Stay on topic.
5. Have fun.

And here is a frame speed ranking of their regular attacks and grabs - no Specials yet, sorry - to clear up on things since sometimes a move may feel slow, but it's actually fast and vice versa. Plus more information doesn't always hurt. Data from List of attacks/grabs from fastest initial frame to slowest (Frame Speed) and the Complete Hitbox/Frame Data For Every Character threads.

As of patch 1.1.4.

Move Hit Frames||
Jab|2-4, 10-12, 17-21, 22-26, 27-31, 32-36, (infinite), 41-42|3-4, 17-20
Dash Attack|8-11 or 12-19|10-13 or 14-18
Ftilt|6-8|8-10
Utilt|5-9, 12-16|15-18
Dtilt|7-9|6-8
Side Smash|17-19 or 20-20|10-11
Up Smash|7-12, 13-20|11-12, 15-16, 19-20, 23-24, 27-28
Down Smash|7-9|9-10 or 17-18
Nair|3-5, 6-9, 14-17, 21-24|8-9 or 16-17 or 18-22
Fair|10-13, 14-17, 18-21, 22-25, 26-27, 28-29|6-7, 12-13, 18-19, 24-25, 30-31
Bair|4-5 or 6-12|9-10 or 11-14
Uair|7-11|5-6, 8-9, 11-12, 14-15, 17-18, 20-21
Dair|16-19 or 20-31|17-18 or 19-21 or 22-23
Zair|N/A|8-17, 16-17
Grab|8-9|16-25
Dash Grab|10-11|16-26
Pivot Grab|11-12|17-28

 

[IsmaR]

The obvious thing off the bat to dismiss is the "Reflector = projectile counter" mindset. While Falco does possess one of the best reflectors in this regard, a competent player will see it coming 9 times out of 10, and knows to mix up their usage/adapt accordingly.

That said, this is a difficult match-up for Samus for more reasons than just reflector. Being large frame/floaty leaves her susceptible to being juggled or caught, particularly by multi-hit hit moves from Falco like N-air, F-air, U-tilt and even Jabs. Add in the fact that even with the huge nerfs, Lasers are incredibly disruptive for things like trying to charge/fire off projectiles from afar.

The big thing she does have over Falco is a particularly good off-stage game. Disrupting slow/charge up recoveries like Falco's is basically what she was made for. Keep in mind in addition to her D-air spike, she can poke with Z-air and missiles, interrupt with U-air/N-air, or even outright kill near the blastzones with F-air and full Charge Shots. Luckily her recovery has also taken some nerfs, so she can't go out as far/as deep as she used to. However I would still advise to avoid stages that let her maneuver better, like Omega stages with wall-jump happy surfaces, or stage with extended platforms, which she can camp on/around for days.

 

[Captain Rage Quit 69]

Reflect--nah, just kidding.

Samus has one of the slowest rolls in the game, so that's something to keep an eye out for.

Her up-B is a kill move, and I think fair kills now too. Uh, we can't be predictable with our recoveries, because she'll go out there and dair us or fair us or something, maybe use the missiles to mess us up since it's risky to reflect off-stage.

We got lasers, so that's good. We got reflector, so that's good. We got speed, so that's good. What would Samus' goals be in this matchup? To play keepaway, or try to poke at us from afar? Perhaps to put us in the air to try and KO off the top? To best understand this matchup, we need to know what a Samus player wants, so we can shut that down.

 

[IsmaR]

Playing keep away is usually the best bet since we lose up close. Aside from charging projectiles, she also has Z-air to watch out for.

As I said she's juggle/combo city, once you do get in, she's eating either grab > N-air or B-airs for days. Regaining momentum is difficult if Falco stays persistent on stopping her from charging. The moment Samus realizes she has to approach is the moment we're ****ed.

 

[Captain Rage Quit 69]

Playing keep away is usually the best bet since we lose up close. Aside from charging projectiles, she also has Z-air to watch out for.

As I said she's juggle/combo city, once you do get in, she's eating either grab > N-air or B-airs for days. Regaining momentum is difficult if Falco stays persistent on stopping her from charging. The moment Samus realizes she has to approach is the moment we're ****ed.

Ah, so in this case we're gonna want to force the confrontation then. Falco should be able to do this with lasers and reflector, forcing Samus to get a little closer if she wants to do real damage.

The tricky part is her Z-air. I understand that has long range; how quickly does it come out? Do you think it could be Samus' go-to approach breaker in this fight? Or perhaps her key to keeping Falco away?

 

[IsmaR]

Z-air is fairly quick but it doesn't auto-cancel/has a bit of landing lag now. It's only really useful for discouraging short hop approaches and reflector spam (it just barely outreaches it), and for harassment on platforms (for this reason I'd say FD is a good choice for stage preference considering she can't escape anywhere, and on a flat surface, Falco can chill/shoot lasers and reflect whatever).

Approaching-wise, I'd say pivot grabs and tilts work well. Not particularly difficult to avoid Samus' grab given how easily telegraphed it is (just be careful since she can use it immediately out of her Charge animation for neutral B). Careful with Dash attack, as if you either whiff or get shielded, you're more than likely to eat an Up B OoS for it. If you manage to avoid this, punish the crap out of her landing.

 

[Ffamran]

In overall speed, Samus runs/dashes faster than Falco; she is ranked 29 while Falco is ranked 35-37 along with Olimar and Ness. At walking speed, Falco is ranked 10 while Samus is ranked 30. Data from here: http://smashboards.com/threads/smash-4-running-walking-speed-rankings.371564/.

As a fast-faller, Falco is ranked 5 at regular fall speed and 6 at fast fall speed; Samus is ranked 42-43 with Mr. Game & Watch at regular fall speed and fast fall speed. You'd think her advanced suit could mess with gravity or something. I blame Adam. Data from here: http://smashboards.com/threads/smash-4-fall-fast-fall-rankings.384660/.

At air speed, Samus is ranked at 28-30 with Fox and Rosalina & Luma while Falco is ranked at 38-40 with the Pits. I thought birds were aerodynamic, well, it makes sense with Samus since she has bird Chozo DNA. Data from here: http://smashboards.com/threads/smash-4-air-speed-rankings-and-values.383217/.

The issue with Falco, (Dr.) Mario, Zelda, Pit/Dark Pit, and Palutena's reflectors is that they cannot keep them out indefinitely and in Falco and (Dr.) Mario's case, they have a shorter window of time to reflect unlike Zelda and Palutena or Pit/Dark Pit who can hold down B to keep Guardian Orbitars out longer. Only Fox can keep out his Reflector for as long as he wants, but that means he's a sitting duck like Ness when he keeps out PK Magnet. The good thing about Falco's Reflector is out of the reflectors in the game, his and Zelda's can be used offensively while the rest use it more defensively.

So, Falco can space with Reflector or use it as a reflect. That's the greatest thing about about Falco's Reflector... Now if only Wolf was back since the I-frame thing was pretty neat.

 

[FlAlex]

As the title of the forum suggests, shoot immediately if you are on a relatively flat stage like any Omega or the Animal crossing stages. Samus wants to charge that kamehameha of hers, even if it's only for baiting a reflector. With no real answers to Falco's lasers, Samus will be forced to attack head on, usually by trying to jump over the lasers (hint: when she is extremely vulnerable).
After the Samus has engaged in CC, drop the laser game completely. Be absolutely on her case the entire time. Samus has few quick CC moves outside of Ftilt and her pathetic jab. Her Ftilt is our go-to CC attack. Great range, decent knock-back (though it won't kill) and usable damage. It is a tad laggy though. Her jab is actually something you want your opponent to use before your Falco reaches 30%. Samus's Jab1 is UNSAFE ON HIT. You heard me right. Jab1 is unsafe on hit and can be shielded before Jab2 can come out. This is true until you are above or at 30%, or so I hear. Dtilt has serious combo-potential but is a bit laggy. Uptilt can kill at large percents, has great knockback and area-coverage, but is a bit laggy. Also, it spikes grounded opponents, but not aerial ones.


Other tips: Samus's Grab is laggy/ Samus has serious combo-potential, especially from DThrow and Dtilt/ Samus can be juggled easily/ Bombs work two ways: 1-a timer 2-it will detonate if you attack it. bombs do make you flinch but will usually only do 5 damage and pathetic knockback and hitstun. Do not be afraid of them. Bombs can do 10 damage but you have to be right on top of them for that damage (if memory is correct)/ Samus' tether can go through some of the stages and hit you even when she is hugging the edge/ She can perform SH>Dair for no landing lag/ SH>Air dodge has no landing lag/ Her practical kill moves are her SideSmashes, Bair, Dair, UpAir, Fair, Nair, Screwattack, Uptilt and CS(charge shot)/ BIG THING HERE: Her missiles may not reach her if reflected. They both explode on a timer so even a fast super missile will not reach Samus if reflected a great distance away from her. Homing missiles are very unlikely to reach Samus due to how short it's reach is.


Samus should be a field day for your guys' main, the cocky-bluejay.
That being said, let's see how your laser spamming duck fares against the world-destroying bounty-hunter!
(This constitutes as tasteful teasing, right?)

Best of Luck!

 

[Ffamran]

So, I think I fixed the Jabs for Falco and Samus (and everyone else that I made a table for). The issue is that Jabs are considered separate moves which confuses me, so they're not like moves that have multiple parts/hitboxes like Falco's Up Smash or Samus's Down Smash, instead they're separated as different moves with "Enables transition to next jab state on real frame X" meaning you have to account for both its active frames, when it begins to hit, and the transition. This does seem more likely since there is a noticeable disconnect with Samus's Jab combo and Falco's Jab combo does not actually true combo from Jab 2 to Rapid Jab, but it's fast enough that it won't matter in many cases.

Sorry for the misinformation.

 

[DungeonMaster]

I fight falco all the time on for glory. Still have yet to meet a true expert at him, I would say something like 95% of the time it's as a counterpick to Samus, which I have to say if Samus knows the matchup is not the best counterpick.
Pretty much every one of Falco's moves have less range than Samus'. The f-tilt is the most dramatic, you can stuff pretty much everything falco does on the ground with that kick. Throwing out the reflector is not safe on shield against Samus' grab and the reflector itself has a window of cooldown that with a little practice is possible to bait into a charge shot.
In the air Samus's up-air has good priority and chains into a lot more damage with the new combo mechanics.
The laser is a respectable tool, though I find novice players will eat an unfavorable super-missile trade easily, and don't respect the chargeshot, even the half-charged shot until it's too late and cooldown kills them.
I have had I don't know how many Falcos online LET me charge my shot, literally, hubris before the fall. Don't do this, zap her!
Falco's biggest advantage is in tight, not at great range, particularly with his jab, if he wants to win he has to fight very close.
I don't know all of Falco's % damage in great detail in Smash4 but from experience I feel Samus hits harder overall and is much heavier. As others have said, Falco suffers offstage against Samus, particularly in his predicable up-B recovery, and her f-air stuffs the side-B readily, however I find more often than not because of Falco's light weight he's simply dead rather than chased offstage.
Overall, smash4 definitely isn't the bad old days of brawl, falco isn't exactly a roast bird on the Samus menu but likewise he now has a real fight on his hands. It's pretty even.

 

[Ffamran]

@ DungeonMaster , if you want damage info on Falco, check this thread: I'll Take The Sky Any Day: Falco Moveset Data; Working on personally tested KO Percents (WIP). It's still being worked on...

For other damage, check this from the Complete Hitbox/Frame Data For All Characters thread: http://pastebin.com/PzTjdtx8.

 

[FlAlex]

Where are the rest of the Falcos? This is on their forum, correct? It feels as if either the others don't know this exists or they have a lack knowledge on the MU (I don't blame them as Samus mains are rare).

If this MU is an unknown due to lack of experience from competitive players duking it out, then we should fill that void.
I normally have a good amount of free-time on my hands and have both copies of the game so I am available if any Falco's wanna see what this MU entails. With my lack of professionalism however, I think there should be some sort-of mini-tourney to build each party's knowledge of the MU. That way, the best Samus' goes against the best Falcos. Replays should be posted here for analysis.
What do you guys think? Unnecessary or is a "tourney" impractical? If ya'all like the idea, I'll try to contact as many Falco's as possible to set this up, as well as Samus mains, and try to compile an agreeable time and rule set (probably APEX 2015).

Hey, Ffamran! Do you have any advise for us Samus mains? Perhaps something you guys feel Falco has over Samus?

 

[Ffamran]

Where are the Falcos, indeed. This is one of those not MUs where there aren't a lit of players from both sides. Hell, this happened to Fox of all characters while Zelda has more input because the Zelda boards are really active. Anyway, some haven't showed up for a while and others, well it's the weekend, so they're probably doing some else.

I tried learning Samus once and I remember fighting a Samus who juggled me as Falco. So, one thing is because of Falco's fast fall speed and poor air speed is that you can lock him into a lot of juggles which is what makes fighting Rosalina and Palutena such a pain for Falco. Still, if Falco's Fair out-prioritizes Samus's Fair and Uair, then Falco can just drill through those if he gets a chance.

The thing with Falco is if he hits, then he hits hard. You don't want to trade hits with him unless you're Ganondorf, Ike, Charizard, DK, or Bowser. I don't use Reflector as a reflect much against projectile users and I prefer rushing in while they're charging since Falco doesn't have a large window of time for Reflector like Palutena or Zelda does. So, if you're going to shoot, then it's more me using it when I know you're fishing for a Charge Shot. I'd rather avoid or take hits from missiles and uncharged Charge Shots then keep using Reflector and giving people a habit and end lag to punish.

Falco lacks melee range, but makes up for being fast and strong with his hits. His grab game is good since he can make use of all his throws to combo out of. Falco Phantasm allows him to travel, do damage, and meteor.

In online settings, Falco suffers a lot compared to other characters because it feels like you have to be precise with him and with his overall poor mobility, it's difficult with input lag.

 

[FlAlex]

Where are the Falcos, indeed. This is one of those not MUs where there aren't a lit of players from both sides. Hell, this happened to Fox of all characters while Zelda has more input because the Zelda boards are really active. Anyway, some haven't showed up for a while and others, well it's the weekend, so they're probably doing some else.

I tried learning Samus once and I remember fighting a Samus who juggled me as Falco. So, one thing is because of Falco's fast fall speed and poor air speed is that you can lock him into a lot of juggles which is what makes fighting Rosalina and Palutena such a pain for Falco. Still, if Falco's Fair out-prioritizes Samus's Fair and Uair, then Falco can just drill through those if he gets a chance.

The thing with Falco is if he hits, then he hits hard. You don't want to trade hits with him unless you're Ganondorf, Ike, Charizard, DK, or Bowser. I don't use Reflector as a reflect much against projectile users and I prefer rushing in while they're charging since Falco doesn't have a large window of time for Reflector like Palutena or Zelda does. So, if you're going to shoot, then it's more me using it when I know you're fishing for a Charge Shot. I'd rather avoid or take hits from missiles and uncharged Charge Shots then keep using Reflector and giving people a habit and end lag to punish.

Falco lacks melee range, but makes up for being fast and strong with his hits. His grab game is good since he can make use of all his throws to combo out of. Falco Phantasm allows him to travel, do damage, and meteor.

In online settings, Falco suffers a lot compared to other characters because it feels like you have to be precise with him and with his overall poor mobility, it's difficult with input lag.

Ah. Not surprised about the Zeldas. You should have seen what they did to the Lucina and Zamus forums. So many memes and photo-shopped pics.

Falco's Fair should beat Samus's primary aerial attacks. I know how hard Falco hits. Honestly, I think Falco has this MU in his favor by a good amount. Only thing Samus has is a kill projectile and greater ranged attacks.

What do you think of conducting a small tourney to gather info on the MU? I have no experience in organizing these things, so if I do go through, some help would be appreciated. If it's not too much to ask that is.

 

[Ffamran]

Well, I've been putting a information on battling Falco mains in the intro post which everyone probably never reads... It's supposed to be a way to combat the, "Oh, I never fought this MU, so I can't give input or it'd just be theory-crafting". Theories are fine, but they shouldn't be adamant since they're just theories. There was this issue at another MU thread in another board where a user kept refuting the MU as in his character's favor despite accepting and experiencing the counterarguments to his claims that his character beats the MU by a landslide. Experienced or not, you cannot say a character can't edgeguard if you seen and felt it several times. Anyway, I digress.

As for organizing a tournament, well, I don't know, but maybe the tournament mode that's going to be released for SSB4 would help. The other issue is that I don't own a Wii U, so I'm stuck on the 3DS.

Samus should be more mobile that Falco, but then again, I don't find Fox's, Captain Falcon's, or Sonic's speed that much of a trouble since I'm letting them screw up so I can punish them. I find issues with Falco's air mobility to be the main issue holding him back in a lot of MUs.

One thing you could do is use Bomb over Falco since he can't reflect it and Falco can't reflect a barrage of projectiles which Samus can sort of do, but not as well as say, Duck Hunt or Villager. That allows Samus to bait a Reflector and land a Charge Shot or run in and Side Smash or something. It's one thing that makes Lucario less annoying since if Lucario is fishing for an Aura Sphere kill, then Falco just needs to know when to throw out Reflector and end the match.

 

[pinkdeaf1]

I fight falco all the time on for glory. Still have yet to meet a true expert at him, I would say something like 95% of the time it's as a counterpick to Samus, which I have to say if Samus knows the matchup is not the best counterpick.
Pretty much every one of Falco's moves have less range than Samus'. The f-tilt is the most dramatic, you can stuff pretty much everything falco does on the ground with that kick. Throwing out the reflector is not safe on shield against Samus' grab and the reflector itself has a window of cooldown that with a little practice is possible to bait into a charge shot.
In the air Samus's up-air has good priority and chains into a lot more damage with the new combo mechanics.
The laser is a respectable tool, though I find novice players will eat an unfavorable super-missile trade easily, and don't respect the chargeshot, even the half-charged shot until it's too late and cooldown kills them.
I have had I don't know how many Falcos online LET me charge my shot, literally, hubris before the fall. Don't do this, zap her!
Falco's biggest advantage is in tight, not at great range, particularly with his jab, if he wants to win he has to fight very close.
I don't know all of Falco's % damage in great detail in Smash4 but from experience I feel Samus hits harder overall and is much heavier. As others have said, Falco suffers offstage against Samus, particularly in his predicable up-B recovery, and her f-air stuffs the side-B readily, however I find more often than not because of Falco's light weight he's simply dead rather than chased offstage.
Overall, smash4 definitely isn't the bad old days of brawl, falco isn't exactly a roast bird on the Samus menu but likewise he now has a real fight on his hands. It's pretty even.

You pretty much summarized the matchup. Kudos to that. I wanted 5o actually contribute, tho.

If I were to add anything new, I would say that flaco can punis zair recoveries with run off fair iif he can read it. iup b is hard to punish, but is punishable but the timing with bair against it or even flaco's multi hits make it hard to challenge.

As for stages, flaco wants no platforms if he can understand how to escape juggles (ahem side b anyone?) And deal with projectiles. With platforms, samus can punish landing and keep flaco up high when he would much rather prefer to be on the ground. Flaco can't effectively use platforms as well as samus, but they can occasionally be useful. If you can't escape samus pressure and combos then platforms can come in handy, but coming down will be a pain so there is something of a trade off there. But the ledge is always open for handy escapes. Flaco has a decent roll so definitely use ledges to your advantage.

 

[FlAlex]

As for organizing a tournament, well, I don't know, but maybe the tournament mode that's going to be released for SSB4 would help. The other issue is that I don't own a Wii U, so I'm stuck on the 3ds.

Actually, I meant an online tourney (I assume that tourney mode doesn't work online), that way none of the party's need to go out of there way just to get knowledge on the MU. I'm sure I can find some others willing to play on the 3ds.

When I meant tourney, I really meant ask for volunteers to fight each other online, post their thoughts on the MU, and post the replays here. Only thing I would really do is keep score of who won each battle and get the winners from both sides to fight each other until only 1 falco and 1 samus remained to brawl. That match should be between the two best players, giving each party the best possible insight into this MU, because if I (lil' ol For Glory player) went against a Falco who actually plays competitively, I would probably lose, even if Samus has the upper-hand in the MU. Do you get the picture? A tourney is probably a bit too far. I'll just see if I can fight some Falco's and hope I don't suck as much as I think. I'll post some replays here, if I get around to it.

It's been a while since I've played 3dsSmash, but I can probably handle a battle against you,,Ffamran. Hopefully the lag ain't bad.

 

[Shadó Chimera / シャドーキメラ]

If we're talking matches count me in. I'm not very good at discussion, but I think I play well and I can record some replays.

 

[Zionaze]

sorry Falco main here. For some reason Ffamran's threads decided to hide from my sight

As mentioned before, samus can be juggled fairly easily due to her floatiness. Samus is also like the easiest character to pseudo-chaingrab/reset. It easily grants a 40% right off the bat. Letting Samus camp isn't the ideal situation. Going hyper aggro is essential, not letting her off the hook. Reflector is great but Falco mains should use it sparingly, use it more as a back-off tool and if I see a Samus charging towards me to blow me away with Fair or a charge shot, a jumping reflector can put you in a greater position than she is if it hits. Reading rolls grants you a free Fsmash. I think the only problem I have is blocking the Z-airs, those are gnarly.

Now i know this samus wasn't really good but you can see how effective Fair harassing can be

I'd say its in falcos favor 60-40

 

[Xygonn]

I'm more than happy to try to take a match later tonight if anyone wants to practice the MU (assuming I can actually find the time myself).

I think the Samus in the video was failing to DI up and air dodge, the complete lack of Uair is almost embarrassing. Because of Samus' weight and floatiness, I believe she is actually easier to escape combos with than other characters. High weight gives a low hitstun but the float puts her farther away faster. I'm sticking with this theory until someone proves me wrong, but when I play characters that fall faster and especially fall fast and are light, I think it's easier to get locked into combos. This includes Falco. I think Samus can shoulder->Uair->Uair->UpB faclo reliably for almost 40% damage at the beginning of a match (this is my bread and butter chain). Alternatively, dthrow->same combo.

If you are going to shoot the laser, make sure you are close enough. At the beginning of the match, walk forward before shooting to ensure enough coverage. I always dash right then start charging if I see a falco, most of them shoot and the laser fizzles before it reaches me. Usually I start my matches with a full or almost full CS because of this.

If the homing missile is slowing way down, don't reflect it. For me, it's just a bait to try to get a read and an opening. Reflect is the ideal read because it's fairly punishable. More so than a shield or just retreating.

If you feel samus is going to grab, spot dodge, never roll away from it. I always giggle to myself when a fast rolling character rolls away from the first part of the tether throw only to be hit with the extended part.

 

[Zionaze]

Honestly I haven't tested the pseudo-chaingrab fully but almost every samus player I've faced gets caught atleast 3 times. And If not the 2nd one is guaranteed so Falco can finish it off with an Upsmash. I do agree using Reflector recklessly puts you in a bad position

 

[Gamegenie222]

This matchup is hella fun for us and I used to play the MU alot with a buddy of mine who played the game pre patch before dropping it. I can try to pull the vids to post but I need to upload them first and they are prepatch so yeah.

 

[Ffamran]

Samus's ledge options are wicked. Let's see, Zair, Uair, Screw Attack, and the other basic ledge options. Her Uair in general is just awesome; it's one move to be aware of always. Samus can also Nair or Bair for stage spikes since Nair hits behind her as well which gives her plenty of mixups for off-stage game.