Meta SSB4 Falco Matchup Discussion 04 - Zelda - Fuujins Allowed

[Ffamran]

All right, I'm starting up the matchup threads again. This thread will be, if you haven't read the title for some reason and like clicking threads blindly, dedicated to matchup discussions on Zelda.

All credit goes to Quas-quas for the original images.​

Here's a link to the main post: SSB4 Falco Matchup Discussion - Main Post. This will be more for general matchup discussions like making a suggestion and such. Or, you could head over to the social thread and ask there: Where We Prefer The Air And The Points Don't Matter!. Or PM me if you really have to, but don't make a habit out of it.

Oh, and if you guys and girls want to play each other to have fun or learn about the MU, check out the NNID and FC sharing thread on the Falco boards: http://smashboards.com/threads/anyone-want-to-exchange-nnids-or-friend-codes.386513/.

There's also the regular NNID and FC sharing threads in the Online discussion if you just want to ask anyone to play.

Notice: Some rules, guidelines, and tips. Some of these are a given since you joined any forum.

1. Be respectful of each other. No insults, no trolling, no flaming, or any of that nonsense.
2. Be aware that some of the discussions can and will be old, so don't call out someone for "wrong" data if that post was referring to say, patch 1.0.3 stuff.
3. Be impartial; learn to see things from other sides. So, don't boast about all the advantages. Notice weaknesses and strengths from both parties.
4. Stay on topic.
5. Have fun.

And here is a frame speed ranking of their regular attacks and grabs - no Specials yet, sorry - to clear up on things since sometimes a move may feel slow, but it's actually fast and vice versa. Plus more information doesn't always hurt. Data from The Great Fairy Fountain II by @ BJN39 and the Complete Hitbox/Frame Data For Every Character threads.

As of patch 1.1.4.

Move Hit Frames||
Jab|2-4, 10-12, 17-21, 22-26, 27-31, 32-36, (infinite), 41-42|11, 13, 15
Dash Attack|8-11 or 12-19|6-10
Ftilt|6-8|12-13
Utilt|5-9, 12-16|7-18
Dtilt|7-9|5-11
Side Smash|17-19 or 20-20|16, 18, 20, 22, 24
Up Smash|7-12, 13-20|9-9, 11, 13, 15, 25, 27, 29, 32
Down Smash|7-9|5-6, 13-14
Nair|3-5, 6-9, 14-17, 21-24|6-7, 10-11, 14-15, 18-19, 22-23
Fair|10-13, 14-17, 18-21, 22-25, 26-27, 28-29|9-13
Bair|4-5 or 6-12|6-9
Uair|7-11|14-16
Dair|16-19 or 20-31|14-24
Grab|8-9|10-11
Dash Grab|10-11|11-12
Pivot Grab|11-12|11-12

 

[Captain Rage Quit 69]

Can't even spam lasers here because of Nayru's Love, but who spams lasers in this game outside of off-stage pokes?

Her tilts and aerials are strong when sweetspotted, but really now.

All you gotta do is wait for Zelda to slip up and go in for a grab. Now, I don't have much experience fighting her, but it's my understanding that she's slow and can't do much when it comes to chasing after you. You can reflect Phantom, so that's out, and Din's Fire is incredibly predictable. Farore's Wind can be shielded on reaction, but she could use that to try and psych you out. I don't think Zelda's going to get anything out of it except for a free recovery, but hey. :/

She has magic grabs which are stronger than physical grabs, so there's that to watch out for.

Do Falco's tilts outrange Zelda's? Surely our dtilt extends further than hers.

On that topic, can she do anything to stuff our recovery? Aside from a hard read with, say, dair, and perhaps pressuring us with Din's Fire to stop side-b if she has enough prep time, I don't know. Perhaps Phantom to prevent us from side-b'ing to the stage? Can that stop up from sweetspotting with side-b? What if we attempted to recover from underneath with up-b? What can she do then?

I'm just throwing this stuff out as first impressions and questions, since I'm not exactly fighting pro Zelda players everyday. I welcome people to argue my points or correct me on things, since that's what discussion is for.

 

[Ffamran]

Zelda's Dair can probably meteor Falco effectively if he's stuck charging Fire Bird - pro tip: never recover under Ganondorf.

As for her Dtilt, that's going to require someone else, but I know it has decent range and combos.

Zelda feels like she sort of thrives on reads like Ganondorf which is why edgeguarding her can be an issue if she does a Fair right after jumping the ledge. I've KO people by doing that because they thought she couldn't do much from the ledge. It's the same as fast-falling Falco's Bair or it connecting at all since it's so fast. The issue are sweet-spotting. If Zelda screws up, then she's going to get punished for it.

Nayru's Love from what I heard has a lingering hitbox due to the crystals. So, it's kind of like dealing with Palutena's Jab if it covered her entire body and some more.

 

[Captain Rage Quit 69]

@ Ffamran : I'm understanding what you mean when you talk about her dair. I'd imagine it has a tighter sweetspot than Ganondorf's, but should not be underestimated all the same.

I'll check tomorrow if nobody else has, since I have multiple ways to check these things.

I agree, her attacks aren't built for aggressiveness but rather for defensive play. I can tell a Zelda player is gonna want to force us on the offensive, and probably try to punish our approaches. So wary play is to be expected of us. Perhaps bait-and-punish play is recommended?

Can our shine penetrate Nayru's Love or will it be reflected? Perhaps we can bait out Nayru's Love and get a dair in, since aerials don't clank?

 

[Ffamran]

Nayru's Love I think can't be clanked nor can it be reflected. Reflector might just bypass it and hurt her, but I'm not sure since I think Zelda has I-frames (invincibility frames) while using Nayru's Love. When and how long those I-frames last? I don't know.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

Falco is still hard for Zelda. he can't run around and Bdacus like brawl but Falco Jab>>>Zelda

Can't even spam lasers here because of Nayru's Love, but who spams lasers in this game outside of off-stage pokes?

Her tilts and aerials are strong when sweetspotted, but really now.

All you gotta do is wait for Zelda to slip up and go in for a grab. Now, I don't have much experience fighting her, but it's my understanding that she's slow and can't do much when it comes to chasing after you. You can reflect Phantom, so that's out, and Din's Fire is incredibly predictable. Farore's Wind can be shielded on reaction, but she could use that to try and psych you out. I don't think Zelda's going to get anything out of it except for a free recovery, but hey. :/

or just jab her when she tries to do something lol. other than like fsmash or dtilt Zelda really can't contest Falco's jab and either has to outspace it or do something else. Zelda is juggleable because she's bad in the air so tossing her up there is good because she doesn't really have options when she's in the air.


Elevator kills early, but idk the earliest percent Falco dies. Falco doesn't move too fast so the rough freedom to recover is there but Farores is still something to keep an eye on because of its stupid high knockback.

She has magic grabs which are stronger than physical grabs, so there's that to watch out for.

Do Falco's tilts outrange Zelda's? Surely our dtilt extends further than hers.

Zelda's grab is still frame 10 other than some Nair followups or attempts to read DI for like a kick Zelda's throw game isn't really that deadly to Falco.
I believe tilt wise Falco and Zelda have roughly the same reach but again other than Dtilt Zelda's other ground moves are slow. Dtilt is also Zelda's version of "jab" since her regular jab is special lol. she can grab out of Dtilts.

On that topic, can she do anything to stuff our recovery? Aside from a hard read with, say, dair, and perhaps pressuring us with Din's Fire to stop side-b if she has enough prep time, I don't know. Perhaps Phantom to prevent us from side-b'ing to the stage? Can that stop up from sweetspotting with side-b? What if we attempted to recover from underneath with up-b? What can she do then?.

other than Dair sideB/firebird i don't think so. i know if she perfectly times Fsmash she can stuff a sideB back onto the stage but that's hard to do and i don't think her Usmash can overide sideB anymore due to the truncated hitbox lol. i don't think Phantom can stop Falco from sideBing back to the ledge by sitting there, maybe firebird because it moves slower but if your using firebird Zelda is probably looking to Dair.

I haven't fought many Falco's as Zelda yet but i think he still has good things going for him because his CQC game is better than Zelda's and she kind of has to fight based on prediction and reads.

i also think Falco's reflector depending on when you kick it at her will either go through Zelda or hit her. never been in that situation though.

 

[NotAnAdmin]

Not sure but I thought the shine hitbox just kind of gets canceled out. The way it works is pretty weird.

Also another odd thing with Zelda's down b, she can be grabbed and thrown near the start of it's animation almost like the hitboxes don't appear until a certain point. I can't actually show when, but I don't think I'm the only person who has seen this happen, she still has a crystal around her when grabbed as well.
Has anyone else done/seen this?

 

[JigglyZelda003]

Not sure but I thought the shine hitbox just kind of gets canceled out. The way it works is pretty weird.

Also another odd thing with Zelda's down b, she can be grabbed and thrown near the start of it's animation almost like the hitboxes don't appear until a certain point. I can't actually show when, but I don't think I'm the only person who has seen this happen, she still has a crystal around her when grabbed as well.
Has anyone else done/seen this?

any part of a charged phantom has a wind pushbox first before the attack. uncharged phantom has i think the tiniest deadzone just usually trying to grab her during quick phantom equals a trade mostly. also Nayrus crystal appears before the invincibility/hitbox activates so you've probably grabbed her in the start up frames.

 

[Macchiato]

Falco is an easier MU than it was in brawl. Yes Falcos jab is great but due to Zeldas floatiness, she can probably escape the last hit. In this MU Falco must be very cautious, a reckless dash attack or not autocanceled aerial can lead to her elevator. When falco is recovering to the side of the stage, we do not want to go offstage because his illusion spikes. The best tool for that is dtilt at the ledge. His firebird can take a dair to the face. He can't really edgeguard us, we have to make sure we sweet spot the ledge because his Fsmash and Bair is strong. He can kill us as early as we can kill him. We both kill each other around 70%. Always DI his Uthrow because his Uair kills early, he has to watch for the elevator. I think we have around the same range. His smashes has as much lag as ours, also people fall out of his Usmash like our Fsmash. WOW WERE LIKE THE SAME. Anyways he can poke at us with Bair, and it kills like at 80% so we have to be cautious as well. We can use Bair and Nayrus OOS. Try not to Phantom predictably because he can reflect it, Our Din's can't be reflect which can be good pressure since he has to do an action. Imo it's pretty even.

 

[Ffamran]

I had a Zelda spam Jab while I was shielding and I don't really know how to respond to that. Granted, online is laggy, but I think Falco could sneak in a Ftilt or just duck and use Dtilt or Reflector to top her. Otherwise, Zelda could force a roll and punish that.

 

[Macchiato]

I had a Zelda spam Jab while I was shielding and I don't really know how to respond to that. Granted, online is laggy, but I think Falco could sneak in a Ftilt or just duck and use Dtilt or Reflector to top her. Otherwise, Zelda could force a roll and punish that.

I would roll back and camp. Her jab has like no ending lag so it's a great tool for pressure, shield grabbing is also a good option.

 

[Zionaze]

not like it really does anything but falco "can" reflect Dins Fire. Just not send it towards zelda.

 

[Macchiato]

not like it really does anything but falco "can" reflect Dins Fire. Just not send it towards zelda.

Well yeah and a smart zelda would shoot a din close by so it's not really gonna help him. ONE OF THE FEW THINGS GOOD ABOUT DINS FIRE

 

[Ffamran]

not like it really does anything but falco "can" reflect Dins Fire. Just not send it towards zelda.

It's more or less a frame perfect cancel. I think Devil May Cry had one of these and it was difficult, but much more rewarding since Royal Guard can OHKO a ton of enemies. It's not really worth it, but it's still something. I'd say avoid or shield Din's Fire. Unrelated to Zelda is that Falco can "reflect" Lucario's Force Palm. It doesn't do much, but I think it can hurt Lucario at later percents since the range is increased.

 

[Macchiato]

It's more or less a frame perfect cancel. I think Devil May Cry had one of these and it was difficult, but much more rewarding since Royal Guard can OHKO a ton of enemies. It's not really worth it, but it's still something. I'd say avoid or shield Din's Fire. Unrelated to Zelda is that Falco can "reflect" Lucario's Force Palm. It doesn't do much, but I think it can hurt Lucario at later percents since the range is increased.

Yeah, the sweetspot does do good shield damage, so imo it's better to avoid or reflector but again, just shoot a lazer at her like dins is slow and has lag so yeah.

 

[Zionaze]

Ffamran you really love DMC huh xD

 

[Ffamran]

Ffamran you really love DMC huh xD

That, Metal Gear, Ratchet & Clank, Metroid, Zelda, and more. Also, aside from Bayonetta, Metal Gear Rising, and Godhand, it's the only series I know that incorporates fighting game techniques and mechanics into a hack 'n' slash game so well.

 

[Macchiato]

Also Falco is a fast taller which means he's gonna be comboed pretty easily. Also she can escape his non-true combos like uthrow to uair using the love jumping. This might make it slightly in her favor. Like 45-55

 

[Zionaze]

i can probably agree with that. 45-55 in favor of Zelda.

 

[Ffamran]

Also Falco is a fast taller which means he's gonna be comboed pretty easily. Also she can escape his non-true combos like uthrow to uair using the love jumping. This might make it slightly in her favor. Like 45-55

Granted, Falco can just empty hop it and not throw out an Uair at all and do something else. I remember J. Miller doing stuff like that with Luigi.

Still, Falco's air mobility isn't that great and it will cause him to get caught a lot unlike Fox and Wolf who are also fast fallers, but could move well in the air.

 

[Macchiato]

Granted, Falco can just empty hop it and not throw out an Uair at all and do something else. I remember J. Miller doing stuff like that with Luigi.

Still, Falco's air mobility isn't that great and it will cause him to get caught a lot unlike Fox and Wolf who are also fast fallers, but could move well in the air.

Yes Falco will get a follow ups but zelda can mix it up with the love jumps. That's why a zelda shouldn't be too predictable and mix it up. Same with falco, yew could wait for the love jump before yew jump and uair. I think zelda beats falco by a landslide tho

 

[Ffamran]

Yes Falco will get a follow ups but zelda can mix it up with the love jumps. That's why a zelda shouldn't be too predictable and mix it up. Same with falco, yew could wait for the love jump before yew jump and uair. I think zelda beats falco by a landslide tho

It's funny how Diddy Kong tends to be predictable... but wins a lot... Meanwhile, Luigi had to be unpredictable to beat out Diddy... Now, Sheik vs. Luigi is much more interesting.

First off, what's a love jump? Is it basically jumping while using Nayru's Love?

 

[Zionaze]

land slide? i think a small advantage

 

[Macchiato]

It's funny how Diddy Kong tends to be predictable... but wins a lot... Meanwhile, Luigi had to be unpredictable to beat out Diddy... Now, Sheik vs. Luigi is much more interesting.

First off, what's a love jump? Is it basically jumping while using Nayru's Love?

land slide? i think a small advantage

http://youtu.be/uo_ZkdDoWU8
Here's a video on love jumping

 

[Ffamran]

http://youtu.be/uo_ZkdDoWU8
Here's a video on love jumping

I can't wait for Sakurai to patch that out.

And of course Falco doesn't have many advanced techniques... Anything he can do, pretty much everyone can do. I really feel like Falco, Marth, and even Kirby will be the most heavily fundamentals-based characters in the game. Ganondorf is the punish king and Peach is the technical queen.

Still, can't Falco just Reflector that if Zelda abuses it too much?

 

[Macchiato]

I can't wait for Sakurai to patch that out.

And of course Falco doesn't have many advanced techniques... Anything he can do, pretty much everyone can do. I really feel like Falco, Marth, and even Kirby will be the most heavily fundamentals-based characters in the game. Ganondorf is the punish king and Peach is the technical queen.

Still, can't Falco just Reflector that if Zelda abuses it too much?

I don't think I'll be patched out. If they wanted to they would have to make Nayru not stall. They would have to completely change the move. At least it wasn't as broken as her RC pivot grab which was even longer than a tether grab. Also this does help by giving her more options and whatnot

 

[Ffamran]

Also this does help by giving her more options and whatnot

Which is what Sakurai is against.

Still, I think that Falco will have trouble with everyone who outreach him no matter how weak, how strong, how slow, or how fast. Adding on with Falco's poor overall mobility makes it even more difficult to deal with them. Shulk is notorious for this since his range is insane for a melee-only character. Now, the flipside are characters who don't outrange him. If they outspeed him, he'll have trouble, but if he can outkill and outdamage them, then it's fine. Case in point: Fox. I think Fox is one of the more balanced MUs for Falco, but that's a discussion for later.

Zelda being tall like ZSS already makes Falco have issues since tall people have reach. Ironically, Falco was one of the tallest characters in Star Fox Assault for some reason; dude was 6'2" or 1.88m, the same height as Wolf O'Donnell. *checks stuff* Not counting the tip of his "hair", Falco's a bit shorter than Zelda. Just a bit.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

teleport cancel wasn't patched out so i doubt Sakurai will take love jump away as that would be petty.

I had a Zelda spam Jab while I was shielding and I don't really know how to respond to that. Granted, online is laggy, but I think Falco could sneak in a Ftilt or just duck and use Dtilt or Reflector to top her. Otherwise, Zelda could force a roll and punish that.

i don't know the exact IASA frames of jab but if your close enough you might be able to shield grab her if your close enough. i think Falco is actually too tall to crouch Zelda.

 

[Ffamran]

teleport cancel wasn't patched out so i doubt Sakurai will take love jump away as that would be petty.



i don't know the exact IASA frames of jab but if your close enough you might be able to shield grab her if your close enough. i think Falco is actually too tall to crouch Zelda.

Yeah, he can't crouch under it; his crouch puts him at Zelda's arm level. Doesn't Zelda's Jab have a decent hitbox which would make only say, Wii Fit Trainer, Kirby, and Jigglypuff be the only ones to crouch under it?

 

[NotAnAdmin]

Wow cool tech, I've never seen these before.
I'd still say it's 50-50 (on Battlefield or Town and City) or 47-53 on EffDee


Zelda has a couple more options when there aren't any platforms, as shown by the Love Jump.
Falco still has his "chiangrab" when he can manage to grab at low percent, and I would like to think that the bair can be used as a spacing tool if Zelda gets too aggressive.

They are both around the same speed, I guess it's about who make the better choices in the neutral game and who can find the opening first. I would love to do some "live" research on how the MU should be played.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

Zelda's jab may still be weird like brawl where technically if your kirby crouch low it will miss, but if your laying on the ground her jab will magically zap you even though your technically below where the sparkles appear. like it misses Peach if she lands after a whiffed peach bomber and i'm sure Falco's landing animation from Fair it can miss too. Jab is strange.

 

[Ffamran]

Zelda's jab may still be weird like brawl where technically if your kirby crouch low it will miss, but if your laying on the ground her jab will magically zap you even though your technically below where the sparkles appear. like it misses Peach if she lands after a whiffed peach bomber and i'm sure Falco's landing animation from Fair it can miss too. Jab is strange.

Yay... Hitbox shenanigans. Half of Meta Knight's sword, Galaxia, is a mirage, Captain Falcon apparently is an Airbender as shown with his rapid jab finisher, Link's claw on his Clawshot doesn't exist, and other stuff... Seriously, what the hell?

 

[Zionaze]

Wow cool tech, I've never seen these before.
I'd still say it's 50-50 (on Battlefield or Town and City) or 47-53 on EffDee


Zelda has a couple more options when there aren't any platforms, as shown by the Love Jump.
Falco still has his "chiangrab" when he can manage to grab at low percent, and I would like to think that the bair can be used as a spacing tool if Zelda gets too aggressive.

They are both around the same speed, I guess it's about who make the better choices in the neutral game and who can find the opening first. I would love to do some "live" research on how the MU should be played.

i feel like its the opposite after watching the "love jump" 45-55 on battlefield/town and city and 50-50 on FD

 

[NotAnAdmin]

i feel like its the opposite after watching the "love jump" 45-55 on battlefield/town and city and 50-50 on FD

Yeah actually you're right, I forgot about the second Love Jump option at the end of the platform that can go backwards or forwards, that's some good mindgame material right there, and with how strong her down b is, all Falco can do is simply respect it.
I wish his shine had more use in this MU...

 

[Ffamran]

I updated the main post with a simple frame data and added information about battling each other on the Falco boards. Zelda frame data from The Great Fairy Fountain II by @ BJN39 and frame speed data by @ItsRainingGravy.

 

[BJN39]

So, anyone wanna lay out the biggest negative changes to Falco from Brawl? I was thinking over the comparisons of this to Brawl as a starter for thoughts, and I wondered how many of Falco's biggest things VS Zelda still were there.

I mean, for starters, his lasers, obviously. Those alone being gone imo could've jumped the Brawl MU up some. Then there's the high safety of Zelda's improved recovery and Falco's tougher to use DAir. That sort of weakens the good ledge game he had on her. But aside from those two things, don't know a whole lot about Falco's changes. (Good OR bad.) Anyone want to enlighten me? ^ ^

 

[Ffamran]

Aww, Fuujins's post was deleted... Well, that sucks.

Aside from chaingrabs being universally removed, Blaster/all projectiles being toned down - in Falco's case, lasers have shorter range and travel slower, the rate of fire is slower, and end lag might be longer -, and Dair becoming a frame 16 meteor like Captain Falcon and Ganondorf's, that's pretty much the major changes from Brawl to SSB4. The other changes include Bair losing its front hitbox since it's no longer Melee and Brawl Falco's unique Bair, but Brawl Wolf's Bair - Fox gained a unique Bair in Brawl through a reverse, whip kick, Side Smash gaining startup, and Up Smash having some whiffing issues because of the first hit's properties.

Fair is now a good move to use, especially off-stage.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

Falco still can jab Zelda to shut her down that's why even with falcos nerfs and lasers gone at best I can see the match as even but I still feel at best its 55:45 Falco.

 

[evmaxy54]

I feel like this MU is very footsie based, since they can't really camp each other very well (Lasers can be reflected by Nayru's/blocked by Phantom, Phantom can be reflected by... err... Reflector & Dins is Dins lol). Falco's Jab is faster than anything we have, but I think our Dtilt outranges it slightly. Both Zelda's & Falco's Ftilts & Dtilts are about equal range to each other & Falco has Bair to space with which does a solid 13% when sweetspotted & can kill quite reliably (KO's Zelda at ~110% from the centre of FD with no DI & no Rage).

Zelda's main focus in this MU is to get Falco offstage where she can start fishing for the Dair, though she must be cautious because of the spike of Falco's Side-B. Falco on the other hand doesn't have this luxury, he can try to stage spike her with Bair when she tries to grab the ledge, but she can possibly recover still even if she misses the tech if the sourspot connects.

Maybe this actually could be even now thinking about this :O

But I'm gonna stay safe & go 55:45 Falco's favour.

 

[Ffamran]

Fair has good priority and is Falco's main off-stage tool while Bair is more for outright kills, Uair for juggles and vertical kils, Nair for comboing, and Dair for the occasional meteor.