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Sonic Match-Up Thread (Heropon run from nothing!)

erico9001

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Sonic has been voted in the main match-up thread!
http://smashboards.com/threads/shul...he-enemy-post-match-up-questions-here.369284/

My note: Our aerials, namely Nair and Fair, have priority over any of the attacks where Sonic turns into a ball.

I'm unsure of this, but I think Monado Shield may actually be good for this match-up o.o. At least, I seem to do better myself while in Monado Shield. Maybe this is just because I'm being forced into a defensive playstyle. If that's the case, maybe we should opt for defensive Buster or Speed. However, maybe it is that sonic has a harder time getting me in the air.

Anyways, any input is appreciated!

edit: If you're thinking about chasing after him, that would be a bad move.
 
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ChikoLad

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As someone who plays Sonic, I will say Shield is good against him. In general, if a heavyweight plays defensively really well, Sonic will have trouble and can be punished easily, especially from his Side B/Down B.

Shield makes Shulk a heavyweight, so it's something to consider. However, unlike Bowser, for example, Shield-Shulk will not have awesome power. So playing defensively forever will get you nowhere.

I recommend starting out with Shield, and play defensively. Punish him a bit to get his damage up. Then switch to Buster to rack it up more quickly (having already giving yourself a slight lead), and then switch to Smash to finish him. You may have forced Sonic into a more defensive game plan at this point too.
 

erico9001

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Something you need to keep in mind when facing Sonic is patience. Don't go chasing after him. I don't even think you should be chasing after him while in Monado Speed because while our movements are quick, our attacks are still slow in comparison (so still disadvantaged). Also, you need to be careful with slower attacks, as they are very easy for him to punish. He can actually punish your Dsmash from the opposite side of Final Destination.
As someone who plays Sonic, I will say Shield is good against him. In general, if a heavyweight plays defensively really well, Sonic will have trouble and can be punished easily, especially from his Side B/Down B.

Shield makes Shulk a heavyweight, so it's something to consider. However, unlike Bowser, for example, Shield-Shulk will not have awesome power. So playing defensively forever will get you nowhere.

I recommend starting out with Shield, and play defensively. Punish him a bit to get his damage up. Then switch to Buster to rack it up more quickly (having already giving yourself a slight lead), and then switch to Smash to finish him. You may have forced Sonic into a more defensive game plan at this point too.
What is it about the heavy weights playing defensively that makes them difficult? I'm wondering if defensive Monado Buster would be better than Monado Shield.
 
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ChikoLad

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Also if I'm not mistaken, Speed-Shulk is only the fourth fastest character in the game. Little Mac and Captain Falcon can't out run him, so you still won't either.

Against a Sonic player that hasn't completely mastered Sonic though, Speed-Shulk is great for aerial interception, since Sonic's air speed is average enough. However, Sonic does have some ATs that drastically increase his own aerial interception abilities, so Speed-Shulk may not be useful against people who have mastered those ATs. There are not many Sonic players on that level right now though, and I doubt you will see any of them in With Anyone mode.
 

The_Goofyborn

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I probably haven't faced many good Sonic players, but I find that a well-timed Nair is a good way to interrupt a spindash. Of course, it should go with out saying that it isn't all you should be doing against him, as a decent player will adapt to that rather quickly.

Ironically, even with how fast Sonic is and plays, patience has been the key to my victories against Sonic players. Getting little pokes in here and there when I can, but never really going full aggro on a Sonic. I'd definitely suggest using moves with little endlag, because if you leave yourself open Sonic can and will get a punish. Like I said, perhaps I haven't fought many pro-level Sonic players, but playing with this mindset usually helps me not get demolished by them.
 

Penguin4478

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I've fought a couple sonics, and one particularly good one who was great at mixing up his offense. I would say never throw out anything unsafe and play completely defensively, with mostly nairs as your source of damage. PP + grab seems to be fairly safe if he gets shielded and you're relatively close to him, but running shield monado makes it a bit harder unless he's very close to you at the end of his attack. Every time you throw out even an ftilt that doesn't connect, sonic will probably punish. In general I'd say use defensive buster and just waiting to punish with nairs. This can work I would never use vision against him unless I can react fast enough and see a dair animation come from him or something similar. Defensive buster can easily work against shulk, so I generall go vanilla shulk until I see how the opposing sonic plays.
 

N7Kopper

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This should help my anti-Sonic immensely.
One thing, though. D-tilt. It has pretty low endlag on it and can intercept a spindash. Even if it has enough for Sonic to punish you at closer range, even he wouldn't get there in time from a distance, or a just-in-time dodge.
 

DrShankums

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Surprised no one has mentioned simply holding a when you see him spin at you. The jab wins a surprising amount against sonic. Buster is the art I use most against competent sonic players.
 

erico9001

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Surprised no one has mentioned simply holding a when you see him spin at you. The jab wins a surprising amount against sonic. Buster is the art I use most against competent sonic players.
It seems like a really big gamble.
 

Zatchiel

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It seems like a really big gamble.
It is, I would not recommend it. If Sonic makes it through with SDR you're taking really great damage and likely losing all of whatever stage control you had. Meanwhile, if you manage to interrupt Sonic with jab the reward is just okay unless you're in Buster.

The reward from n-air is about the same, potentially better since you can follow up more instantly. Short hop n-air just is a lot safer for challenging SDR too. If you whiff him with that on his charge release, he's going under you and it's right back to neutral. If you whiff jab on his charge release... there is never any mercy.
 
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Zatchiel

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Up smash or back air most commonly for me. Up smash beats SDR, I can occasionally earn a relatively early kill by switching to smash slowly (to give them the impression that I'm exposed) once I hit them across the stage and charging up smash before the art activates. It'll activate either before the first hit of up smash or afterwards, but either way if he challenges it with SDR he's dead at about 80 percent or so, even less than that if you get a decent charge.

Back air is just back air. If it isn't stale (and it shouldn't be), it's great for killing.

I guess up tilt is worth mentioning too, at higher percents if Sonic uses his spring jump to attempt avoiding you while recovering to the ground you can challenge any of his options from that position with up tilt and possibly kill him. I think maybe Air Slash out of shield is good against SDR, especially in Shield, but I don't know if Sonic can airdodge right after SDJ. If he can then the Air Slash option seems less reliable for dealing with that. It's still fine for killing though.
 
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FOcast

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Also, Sonic can just jump out of Spin Dash. If he sees you sitting there jabbing, he's not just going to run into it.

Bair is definitely the go-to kill move here, though watch out for opportunities to Air Slash OOS. Commentary on my Sonic match last night taught me that you can apparently get that for free any time you shield against Homing Attack.
 

The_Goofyborn

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Also, Sonic can just jump out of Spin Dash. If he sees you sitting there jabbing, he's not just going to run into it.

Bair is definitely the go-to kill move here, though watch out for opportunities to Air Slash OOS. Commentary on my Sonic match last night taught me that you can apparently get that for free any time you shield against Homing Attack.
Huh, that's actually a really cool tip. Thanks, I've often wondered how to punish Homing Attack besides a well-timed up-smash.

I third Bair being one of, if not the best kill move against Sonic, so I suggest trying to read a jump out of a spindash with it if you're confident enough. I also believe it's already been mentioned in the opening post, but bair has priority over spindash (which few moves have in my experience) so us Shulk players should definitely be taking advantage of that.
 

Artryuu

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I did this when helping one of my monado boy pals who has trouble against this matchup. Personally I don't find it troublesome as this matchup is very predictable.

Oh and btw:
This video is a match I had with a sonic player, that can give you an idea of how shielding is very effective here.
Second round is where I start applying this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNmGnUO91VM

Ahhh... and something that caught me off-guard is that sonic can cancel his dair if he uses it at a very high level. His dair can't be cancelled when he uses it at a lower point.

 
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Virum

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I've a confession. I have an issue with how this match-up is often analysed because often it's analysed on the precedent that if you understand Sonic's basic options he becomes predictable. However, at high level play Sonic is one of the most unpredictable characters in the game in neutral. Prior to becoming a tournament player I committed quite a lot of time into Sonic in Brawl and a almost of his options in neutral have carried over though the character is overall more powerful (I also main him in PM, but this point is irrelevant as Smash 4 Sonic is much closer to his Brawl incarnation). The first thing we must do is analyse what exactly Sonic can do from his Side B and his Down B:

Side B

During startup/charge:
- Shield/Grab
- Continue charging
- Jump (via X/Y), retaining the current charge
- Jump Attack (via A/B), he jumps up with a hitbox and cancels his spindash, entering falling animation near the apex of the jump
- Release

During max charge (Sonic flashes briefly upon reaching max charge):
- Continue charging (indefinitely)
- Jump
- Jump Attack
- Release

During the hop after release:
- Jump (you go into the standard jumping action, allowing you to go into any aerial action afterwards barring another jump)


Down B

During startup/charge/max charge:
- Continue charging (via mashing B)
- Terminate charge (by not mashing B and just letting Sonic come to a stand still)
- Jump Attack
- Release


Both Side B and Down B

During grounded spin:
- Jump
- Turn (note that turning DOES NOT have a hitbox)
- Continue forward

During turn:
- Jump
- Continue with turn


Upon understanding the variety of options that Sonic has with his spindash, it's time to analyse what options a Sonic will tend to opt for at a high level. Sonic, despite being the fastest thing alive, plays a pretty patient game, attempting to bait his opponent with one of his many spindash tricks or mobility options and punishing them from there. A lot of his options can be pretty safe if the Sonic knows how to make good use of them and keep himself unpredictable, conditioning an opponent into thinking he'll opt for a certain option and instead opting for a different one. As a Shulk, we can't allow Sonic to stay at full stage length otherwise he's just going to sit there and start spinning and whether you like it or not he's applying indirect pressure to you. One of the best things you can do in response to this however is to slowly walk up and edge your way in with your shield. Sounds crazy right? Tackling the fastest thing alive....with slow. But walking allows you to shield at any time, as opposed to having to commit to a dash first before being able to shield. Don't get too close to him of course, and always watch him and be wary of what he's doing. Edge your way into the comfort of midrange and try to stick there because as we all know the midrange is where Shulk thrives and where he succeeds over pretty much the entire cast. Upon getting into that midrange take care applying pressure. Spaced NAirs as opposed to approaching NAirs (which can easily be shield grabbed) are your friend and stuff like FAir, BAir, DTilt and FTilt are great too.

When Sonic releases a spindash from mid or close range your best option, as mentioned by Artryuu, is to hold shield as Shulk's moveset will often be too slow to actually punish from that range barring his jab (which clanks with Sonic and from there all Sonic is actually in a more favourable position due to his superior frame data). However it's easier to challenge if he releases from a distance, with a well timed short hop NAir covering pretty much all of his potential options. After you shield his spindash this is where things get a little more interesting. You see, most mediocre Sonics will almost always opt to jump and aerial upon hitting your shield, which makes people assume that Sonic is predictable. However, there are many other options that Sonic can (and a good Sonic will) opt for:

- Carry on through your shield: As mentioned before, simply make sure you're still holding your shield particularly vs Down B which will hit your shield multiple times. From here all the Sonic can do is turn, which is super easy to punish as he doesn't have a hitbox or jump where he'll be too far to try to apply any sort of pressure to you. From there you edge a little closer to him.

- Jump and aerial: The default option for a lot of Sonics. As aforementioned this option isn't too safe as you can just NAir after Sonic throws out his aerial.

- Jump and Homing Attack: As soon as you see the Homing Attack initiate you have a couple of options. You could hold shield but it means that from the HA and his spins you've taken a lot of shield damage so I'd instead advise rolling towards Sonic and punishing the bounce afterwards with an attack. Due to the nature of HA, it homes in a lot better to foes moving away from Sonic than towards him. Alternatively you can spotdodge too.

- Jump and Up B: Do not act immediately out of shield as the spring will hit you. Simply respect all of it and track Sonic's landing from there. He's relatively fast in the air so you have make sure you stay on him though just out of range of his aerials so that he can't try to hit you with them upon landing. However, overall this is probably one of his safer options.

- Jump to another spindash: This option is one Sonics won't opt for as much due to the startup on his spindashes but keep an eye out for it. In this instance, just SH NAir or FAir quickly after reacting to the start of the spindash.


Beyond his spins he also has his fantastic ground speed and strong grab game, so be wary of option his grab, dash attack and pivot FTilt. Typically Sonic won't (well, more shouldn't) approach you with his SH aerials as they're pretty easy to punish for the most part due to poor range and the fact that the only one that lingers is his NAir which doesn't autocancel so it can be easily punished on landing so you can mainly concern yourself with his ground options. The hardest part of it all is trying to establish yourself into a position where you can cover multiple options at once so it's harder for him to mix you up.

I find Jump and Speed particularly useful for this matchup. Jump allows you to chase him in instances where he'd normally be pretty safe such as after an Up B and Speed allows you to close the gap and capitalise on punishes better. Essentially what you want to try to do is somewhat play his game in this match-up. You have to play it patiently yet you also need to assert yourself and apply pressure to him otherwise he'll camp and fake you out for days. You absolutely cannot be reckless or too aggressive in this match-up as Sonic's punish game is very strong and you'll not only take a ton of damage but you'll also be put into a bad position where he can put you in another mixup situation. Due to Shulk's laggy aerials and lack of air mobility alongside Sonic's immense ground speed and mobility it's easy for Sonic to punish your landings so always try to stay below him or on his level as much as possible.

As a result I do think this match-up is pretty hard for Shulk but it's certainly doable. A Sonic that knows how to use all his tools effectively can condition you into making mistakes in neutral, allowing him to get a lot of damage on you relatively easily. As a result I'd say Sonic can quite often win in the neutral, unless you force Sonic above you. Offstage you're at about he same, because while his recovery is overall better, I'd say Shulk has stronger edgeguarding options. I'd say 60:40 in Sonic's favour, maybe a little better for him but not too sure.
 

Chickenmcdonky

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This matchup's been absolutely killing me. I'm starting to realize just how crappy I am at using Shulk's laggy attacks properly. I keep trying to use them for split-second reads and they just aren't coming out fast enough. I'm sure i'm doing it wrong, I've seen him played too well to think it's hopeless, but holy hell those split second openings are often the only ones you get. This game's frame data is driving me nuts.
 
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Just throwing out here but the Sonic Match up score is still currently at a (??) - No score
 
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