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Data Sonic and the Book of Matchups

Tisbomb

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Tisbomb
So Limit Break really doesn't add any slight damage or launch buffs? I was almost sure that they at least had a slight knockback buff or a slight change to launch direction. Am I reading the frame data wrong?[/QUOTE]

Sorry i did not get back to this sooner, Clouds limit does not increase damage or knockback of his moves, it only increases running speed and fall speed.
 

PeliPenguin

Smash Cadet
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Oct 20, 2015
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Hertfordshire, England
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peligod2
:4bowser:

Honestly Sonic's best MU, Bowser has no reliable methods of dealing with the spindash, his jumpsquat and slow aerials means he can't punish OOS well when we SDJ through him into the air, negating his otherwise excellent Upb oos. Anything Bowser does to stop SD can easily be baited and punished e.g dtilt or jab. His general slow speed means he has to commit much harder than us, with less reward outside of a grab or hard read smash attack/bair, whilst we combo and juggle him hard.

His huge size and lack of a 'get off me' option in the air means we can combo him easily. His landing options are even worse than ours so we can easily keep him in disadvantage. His recovery is pretty easy to edgeguard as well because of its slow speed.

The only issue for Sonic, is that Bowser has the capability to KO us much earlier than we can KO him, kill% for us is around 80% whilst for him its up to 150%, allowing him to exploit rage. Bowser will probably end up killing with a grab or sideb in this MU, considering Sonic uses shield more than most characters. But its important to note about 85% of Bowser's moves have high knockback, some moreso than others, but Sonic has to play safely when at kill%, but this isn't particularly detrimental for Sonic, because...

Sonic can not only get in on Bowser really easily, but he can play campy very well, which makes me believe its our best MU. Bowser has to rely on risky approach options and reads to beat Sonic when he plays like this, which can easily be exploited and punished.

General stuff on Bowser:
  • His sideB completely autocancels, which can be used to bait approachs, pay close attention to what he does afterwards and punish.
  • His downb instabreaks sheilds, get out of the way.
  • He has the laggiest dodge data in the game, coupled with his huge size, makes it easy to punish them.
  • He falls out of Usmash.
  • Many of his attacks grant him intangability on his limbs, never go for trades, Bowser benefits more from them.
  • Be wary of his dair and downb when juggling him, remember that dair has a landing hitbox when punishing.
  • His downb snaps to ledge, be cautious when he recovers high or resets to ledge.
  • Optimal DI for sideB is down, much like ZSS Upb, this prevents us from being KOed off the top prematurely.
  • Don't go to Dreamland or Town and City, because we can get killed by utilts through platforms and low ceiling benefits Bowser more than us. Go to FD or Duck Hunt since we can catch landings easier and camp easier respectively.
:4sonic: 65 - 35 :4bowser:

:4greninja:
Honestly inexperienced with this MU, but I'll add a few things.

In a similar vein to Yoshi, Greninja is a character who relies on gimmicks to land KOs, it doesn't have any guarenteed setups as far as I'm aware. Its general damage output is pretty low, as it doesn't have many highly damaging combos outside of footstool shenanigins. As a result, playing safely and punishing seems to be the way to go in this MU. Its only ways of keeping us out is through well spaced fairs and neutralb.

General Stuff on Greninja.

  • Sweetspot Usmash is its best KO move, similar to Sheik, never land on top of it, unlike Sheik I don't think it works through platforms.
  • Don't shield fullycharged neutral B, this gives Greninja a free grab.
  • Dtilt has potential followups, but jump away seems to beat all of them.
  • Weak Nair combos into stuff.
  • He falls very quickly, easy combo food.
  • Always snap to ledge so we don't get gimped by Upb
  • When it uses Shadow Sneak, the only actions it can use are jump, walk and taunt, pay attention to the shadow.
  • Spot dodge dair, or Greninja bounces off us safely.
  • Its uthrow kills at around 150%.
  • Only edgeguard if you know Greninja is going to sideb, since it doesn't snap to ledge.
  • Be wary of Substitute when edgeguarding, as we can get spiked.
  • Down Taunt (I think) can lead into an uair at high% lol, but we can jump away from this like most of Greninja's setups.
  • Go to Lylat Cruise, since the tilting affects the neutralb. I don't know what stages are good for Greninja.
:4sonic: 55-45 :4greninja:
 
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Rucent

Only strive for first place.
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Let's head on over to :4sonic: vs :4littlemac:and :4sonic: vs :4wiifit::4wiifitm:!

Click Here to vote for the next two characters!

In order to keep discussions in the thread as organized as possible, I wish for those participating to show the character stock icon of the disscussed character before talking about them. Kinda like this. :GCD:
:4littlemac:#:#
Keep him in the air, so he can't exploit his strong ground game.
:4shulk:#:#
You can camp out his Monado arts.

It's also greatly appreciated if a matchup ratio is also mentioned. :)

Thank you! :drflip:
 

PeliPenguin

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:4littlemac:
A somewhat similar match up to Bowser, but Mac has the speed to contest us. It can be a misconception that everything Little Mac does is completely safe, however everything bar well spaced dtilt and fsmash can be punished oos and those two moves are -11 on shield at worst. In general you don't want to challenge any of his attacks, since he has superior frame data and super armour. Because Mac lacks a projectile or safe disjoints, it can be difficult for him to keep Sonic out, therefore Sonic can play his usual bait and punish game to a great effect.

As we all know well, Mac ain't no air fighter which combined with his pathetic recovery, leads to him having the worst disadvantage state in the game. Juggling him and gimping him is extremely easy to his scarce options in the air. Punishing Mac with dsmash can often take his stock early due to the semi spike angle.

Despite this, Sonic has to play very carefully and safely in this MU, due to Mac's general power and of course, the KO punch. Mac can also punish our landings quite easily with super armoured smashes, which beats everything we can do. Both characters thrive off of punishes, but Sonic can play the neutral more safely and punish Mac just as hard, arguably moreso than he can punish us which pushes the MU in our favour.

EDIT: Forgot how broken platform camping is against Mac, if we go to Duck Hunt we can get nice and cosy in the tree and win through timeout easily, this works to a lesser degree on any stages with platforms. The effectiveness of this strategy lies in how patient you can be for the timeout. But overall this pushes the MU in our favour more.

He also recently got a few buffs, the only one of any significance is the fsmash damage increase because more damage means more shieldstun, which means its safer than -11 on block. The exact numbers I don't know but I doubt its completely safe on shield. Shield grab should still work if its poorly spaced and I don't know if ftilt oos can punish it anymore, but jab probably still can.

General stuff on Mac:
  • He has a frame 1 jab which is faster than our entire moveset.
  • Dtilt>Upb is a killsetup, be wary past 100%
  • His counter can be used to help him recover, deal with it like any other counter.
  • Spring is effective at gimping, but remember his upb and sideb beat it out.
  • When he acquires the KO punch, any knockback negates it after six seconds.
  • The KO punch is unblockable and has a bit of armour on start up, respect it.
  • Dtilt can lead into the KO punch at low%, ending stocks prematurely.
  • His Bthrow can kill on the ledge at around 150%
  • DI away when hit by dthrow at high%, poor DI makes dthrow upb a kill confirm.
  • Half charged neutralb is sometimes used as a mixup, easily shield grabbed.
  • Down angled fsmash does heavy damage on shield, watch your shield health.
  • Spin Charge beats his jab.

:4sonic:60-40:4littlemac:

:4wiifit:
Another MU I don't have heaps of experience with but I'll add what I know.

Wii Fit is generally played campy, usually retreating to charge neutralb and downb. Sonic wants to pressure her with his superior mobility so she doesn't get to set up for free. However, if she has her downb charged up the best course of action would be to outcamp her as she gains a huge power buff for 7 seconds, camping can also work if we gain the lead. She generally has poor range and small hitboxes throughout her moveset, so our longer ranged moves like ftilt or bair can be used to outspace her.

General stuff on WFT:
  • Her recovery, whilst long distanced, is fairly slow moving. Edgeguard aggressively.
  • She can use B-reversed sun salutation to mixup landings, be alert of patterns.
  • Her sideb can spike if she connects with her head. The football/soccerball also sends at a low angle.
  • Her jab can bury us.
  • She has no grab follow ups.
  • Her fair can spike on the foot.
  • Sun salutation and deep breathing heal her slightly. A good reason to stop her setting up.
  • Her nair is used as a combo starter.
:4sonic:55-45:4wiifit:
 
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shinhed-echi

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My main vs my second.

I think this one is even-ish, but slightly in Sonic's favor.
I feel this is one of those matchups where if Sonic doesn't play safe, he could get wrecked at the tiniest mistakes.

Just like any other fight vs Mac, setting him airborne is the hedgehog's main priority. There, he's pretty much combo food.
I believe springs are much more lethal to him than people may think.

Yes, Up+B and Sibe+B might negate it, but if you drop one on him right before he attempts to use either of these, he's going to have to dodge, which means it'll be too late to use Side/Up+B after the dodge, (or he could also get hit, which will of course end the stock there). All Sonic has to do is go a little bit farther out of his way, and drop one there.
I think Sonic's edgeguarding tools will prove to be a nightmare for Mac. Running of the edge + Bair for his Up+B and he's done. And Dair for his Side+B.
Also, grab + uthrow, then follow up with a combo. Sonic can afford to miss, get back on the ground, and keep punishing him.
Mac can't rely too much on counter in this matchup because there's little Sonic's moves can offer in terms of strength, that Mac could use to his advantage with his counter. The risk is much higher than the reward, unless he can see a charged fsmash coming from a mile away.

Be wary of his quickest attacks, such as jab, dtilt, and utilt. Ftilt is especially dangerous, as it can be followed by a dtilt if it hits a shield (and just like it's been already mentioned, Mac's Dtilt comboes into a lot of things, even a KO punch).


--

In Mac's defense, he can deal some serious damage on Sonic at early %. I estimate a little over 35% from Utilt+Utilt+UaFsmash combo. Mac might want to avoid getting grabbed at all costs, and he luckily has the frame 1 jab at his disposal.
Mac might be fast, but catching up to a grounded Sonic is extremely hard.
A good Mac player will not use Neutral B too obviously, but it's a good move to counter Spindash/charge if they see it coming.
Dsmash in the edge will pretty much end Sonic early.
This might sound obvious, but in order for Mac to win, he'll have to play really patient and defensively. Playing to punish on reaction is much better than having to chase Sonic down.
The only times where I would chase him down, would be to punish landings. Sonic doesn't have a lot of fast movements on the air (that Mac couldn't catch up to by running), and all of them can be welcomed by a good smash attack.

To edgeguard, there's Dsmash, and there's also the run-off-the-edge-and-side+b-against-the-edge stage spike. Because it's a stage spike, it's almost guaranteed to KO him, but at low percents, he can still make it back (by Up+B or Up+B +wall jump).


Basically, this match is about who is more patient. But I do feel Sonic has a slight advantage over Mac. 55:45 sounds about right.
Both can edgeguard well, but IMO, Sonic can live a bit longer. As usual, Mac can't afford to make mistakes. And Sonic has to be careful with his landings. I wouldn't be in the air as Sonic unless Mac was also there.
 
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Sensane

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Here's how to fight little mac:
1. force him to approach.
2. wait for him to side b
3. taunt as he falls to his inevitable death

:4sonic:(420::sadsheep:):4littlemac:
 

Camalange

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Lols he was at the M2 social recently lol.......
He's like, never on Twitter and seemingly rarely on FB, plus he's abandoned us Sonics :'(

:093:
 

KTVX

Smash Rookie
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Dec 28, 2015
Messages
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Sorry I'm late to the party, but I'm still confused with :4cloud:. Any agreements on the MU? Most people say that it's in Cloud's favor, and in this post I saw two votes in Cloud's favor against one in Sonic's favor. That and the supposed best Sonic in my country also said so. In my personal experience it's hell, as he forces approaches with Limit yet is very hard to approach with the huge, powerful and QUICK sword in between. Ike and Shulk are a different story, but finding an opening is really hard here. All I know is that I should just shield any aerial and grab or something but beyond that I'm clueless. I know that Homing Attack is useless except for an offensive recovery, since you'll bounce up on shield in perfect position for an up smash. A good Cloud knows his autocancels so chasing isn't good either. Shielding and grabbing is predictable so I could get grabbed instead, even if his throws are bad. Dash attack is usually a bad idea since Cloud probably can put up a shield before we get to him and proceed to rip us to shreds with a smash.... So yeah, I'm out of options here.
Video examples of how to deal with him are most appreciated.

As for :4littlemac:, the key is playing defensively. Being honest, the MU is probably 60-40 in our favor, but to get it right you need the patience I tend to lose very easily when a single hit deals 22% or when a super armor move catches me off guard and I can't do anything about it. His cheapness triggers me badly.
Some stuff I learned by fighting the CPU over and over:
- Mac is REALLY light. Much lighter than his frame would suggest. We can take this into our advantage by throwing him up most of the time and not letting him fall as much as we can. When the moment is right, we can KO with bthrow like we never got nerfed.
- DON'T. EVER. CHALLENGE HIM. He has incredibly fast (both in startup and endlag), incredibly strong and SA smashes. Counter exists too. It's always better to attack from above or below. Homing Attack is effective and safe here so long as we don't get predictable. In order to be able to hit him we sadly need to play defensive and stay very sharp. If we react a milisecond late we get rekt and if we rush in we could get punished. Empty hops, mixing shield cancelled and actual spin dashes will help keeping up pressure.
- For recovery, ALWAYS recover low and make sure to auto-snap. Mac can't go down so take your time. Homing Attack recovery is out of the question. Just, no. Down smash will hit us in any situation other than auto-snapping.
- Never wait near the ledge if you force him out. Just fair him as quick as possible or dump spring. If ge gets back up, start over.
- Spring resets the KO meter. Instead of baiting the KO punch or trying to hit him, just jump on him and drop it. If it fails, try to get as far as possible and if he chases you dodge or attack accordingly, then try again. One spring alone won't do the trick though.
- If the situation lends itself to it, don't be afraid to time him out. Mac may be fast, but we can spin dash all about, jump, spring and AC dair. He's pretty much guaranteed unable to hit us if we stall him correctly. Since we'll have to play safe anyway, you can purposedly be even more careful and defensive to stall for time, and if you have a lead but KOing is risky, just run.
- dthrow if facing the ledge, bthrow if away from it, dsmash when reading a roll for the semi spike. Fthrow is there only a last ditch move that KOs much later but from any poiny of the stage.

As for stages, the main things we'll be aiming for are low ceiling, platforms and space. T&C is ideal, but if banned you can aim for SV or FD. DL and UCT are good counterpicks, especially the latter where you can camp on the platforms that pop up, and ESPECIALLY on the one that's below the stage. Mac can't get there, and if he somehow does there's no way out. AFAIK it's legal so when usable make the most out of it.
 
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Sytal

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Sorry I'm late to the party
Clouds MU may need to be revisited in the future, especially seeing as how people have been developing him since release. I'd say the MU is very close to 50-50, potentially in Sonic's favor if he plays his off stage game well.
And if you want video examples, just check out the sticky video thread. There was a pretty good Sonic vs Cloud that was added recently...

Anywho, patiently waiting for any more WFT info. Anyone got anything else to add to it? Its personally a bad match up of mine.
 

DavemanCozy

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Commenting on Little Mac, since my training partner mains him;

Most Little Mac mains that I talk with think this is his absolute worst matchup in the game, next to Rosalina. The fact that Sonic not only runs away faster from him but can avoid combat altogether forces Mac to play a very greuling and patient game. Once you get the % lead there is literally no reason to ever engage Mac. You also edgeguard the living hell out of him, something as simple as spring offstage destroys him.

I'd say the mu is like 8:2 in your favor. Mac's saving grace is KOing significantly earlier, but other than that you can literally just get the lead by punishing the endlag on one of his commitments, then avoid him the rest of the match and win. Ban Lylat and FD against him, and you're set.

I kid you not, I went to an amateur bracket tournament in Toronto where GFs ended up being my training partner (Frupcakes) vs a Sonic who goes by Megel. Now this is just a comment on playstyle, I'm not saying anything bad about the players themselves here; Megel is one of those Sonics who will without shame get a lead and run away the entire match. Against a character who can't do anything when platforms are present? This is not just easy to do; it's braindead, it's basically a "do this and win" flowchart. If you really aren't afraid of playing like this, then you might as well play like this and win.
 

KTVX

Smash Rookie
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Dec 28, 2015
Messages
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Clouds MU may need to be revisited in the future, especially seeing as how people have been developing him since release. I'd say the MU is very close to 50-50, potentially in Sonic's favor if he plays his off stage game well.
And if you want video examples, just check out the sticky video thread. There was a pretty good Sonic vs Cloud that was added recently...

Anywho, patiently waiting for any more WFT info. Anyone got anything else to add to it? Its personally a bad match up of mine.
Yeah, that and the fact that in the first post there wasn't anything in his tab.

As for WFT, one of my friends pockets them. As strange as it sounds WFT can timeout Sonic so keep an eye on the percents. Many of their attacks have hitboxes on their back, such as ftilt, so rolling past them is generally a bad idea. By all means camp their Deep Breathing, especially at higher percents. Even if they can charge Sun Salutation, the risk isn't worth it. It also has a long cooldown so you're safe to play afterwards. Pressuring them in order to prevent the charge is advised. They have strong KO moves, mostly their fsmash, but it does have some lag so if you can bait it (WITHOUT ROLLING THROUGH) you can punish. Uair kills so be careful. If you get hit by utilt, move the stick to the side as a pre-emptive DI for it. Offstage edgeguarding isn't too risky, but watch out for side b as the headbutt can spike, so don't challenge it. You can hit the ball but not always so you're better off just avoiding it. Grab is bad so shielding isn't too dangerous, just don't get predictable.
 

Sensane

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Notes about the marth mu:
  • A charged spin dash can bypass a counter. Been doing this since Brawl.
  • Despite this, a smart Marth may jump in to bait a spin dash by running in and countering, especially if you're using side b. Be wary of this.
  • I don't recommend recovering from below the stage if marth is off stage. Dolphin Slash hitbox is so huge on startup it can easily stage spike us. This also applies to edge guarding, so I wouldn't bother trying to stage spike him that much.
  • Don't take a Marth to bf or dl. Platforms give him stage control and he can cause some serious platforms pressure.
  • Despite this, TAC is more doable, especially since the lower ceilings are better for us.
  • It's best to take Marth to FD or DH because we can outcamp him and he can't pressure us as effectively.
  • For a swordsman, he has such little range, but watch out for the tip. Even though the sweetspots are smaller, a good marth will know how to space them properly.
 

KTVX

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News, I managed to understand how to beat Cloud. It's still an even MU provided you're on point. Cloud is at his weakest when landing. Just shield any aerials or attack if he doesn't use them, he just gets wide open. Spring is pretty useless when gimping, most of the time you just waste the chance. It's relatively safe and much more effective to just attack. On that matter, the best thing you can do is stay in the air waiting for the moment where he will inevitably need to use up b and bair for the kill, regardless of the way you're facing. It's either stage spiking or just pushing him.
 
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John12346

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:4wiifit:
Wii Fit vs. Sonic is an interesting MU to talk about. The neutral is very tricky for both sides, as Wii Fit's common approach of Bair threat to B-Reverse Sun threat is simply too slow on setting up and allows Sonic to just blow through it with a Spin Charge. In the same breath, though, a lot of Sonic's straightforward approaches also get walled out extremely effectively by Headers and Suns at any charge. For the most part, Sonic needs to play at that awkward range where it's too dangerous for Wii Fit to start charging a Sun, at risk of being Spin Charged on. It's very dangerous for Sonic to enter this range WHILE Wii Fit is charging the Sun, but if you get there before the charge starts then you'll have a leg up in the oki game.

With that in mind, most Wii Fits will be happy to just relegate to their shields if Sonic manages to get to the correct spacing, and give away a grab relatively freely if necessary, since Sonic's rewards off of throws aren't exactly amazing or anything. This part is very tricky for Sonic to deal with, because if you telegraph your grab too hard, the Wii Fit will probably be able to react and escape properly. And if you try a Spin Dash/Charge, that's fine and all for some good shield pressure, but if you got blocked, then you'll end up giving Wii Fit space to charge her Suns and heal up a little, which is never fun. The closer you can get to Wii Fit, the better, because it'll be tougher for her to react to the Spin Charge/Grab mixup.

For the Spin Charge/Grab mixup, Wii Fit can either continue to shield or use a hail mary Sun vs. Spin Charge, and she can use a Jab, Ftilt, or dodge option vs. Grab. However, she doesn't have an option that beats both, so if you look carefully for patterns on what she thinks you're going to do and how she responds to that, then you can figure it out.

That's all I have to say. There's not much to the offstage game because both characters are capable of circumventing each others' edgeguards to a very large degree. And any other advantages that either character has, such as Wii Fit's ability to fight in the air, or Sonic's amazing spacing game with tilts do not affect the matchup that heavily.

I believe this matchup is straight up even, 50:50
 
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A_Kae

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Rucent

Only strive for first place.
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Let's head on over to :4sonic: vs :4marth::4lucina:and :4sonic: vs :4link:!

Click Here to vote for the next two characters!

In order to keep discussions in the thread as organized as possible, I wish for those participating to show the character stock icon of the disscussed character before talking about them. Kinda like this. :GCD:
:4littlemac:#:#
Keep him in the air, so he can't exploit his strong ground game.
:4shulk:#:#
You can camp out his Monado arts.

Thank you! :drflip:

Notes about the marth mu:
  • A charged spin dash can bypass a counter. Been doing this since Brawl.
  • Despite this, a smart Marth may jump in to bait a spin dash by running in and countering, especially if you're using side b. Be wary of this.
  • I don't recommend recovering from below the stage if marth is off stage. Dolphin Slash hitbox is so huge on startup it can easily stage spike us. This also applies to edge guarding, so I wouldn't bother trying to stage spike him that much.
  • Don't take a Marth to bf or dl. Platforms give him stage control and he can cause some serious platforms pressure.
  • Despite this, TAC is more doable, especially since the lower ceilings are better for us.
  • It's best to take Marth to FD or DH because we can outcamp him and he can't pressure us as effectively.
  • For a swordsman, he has such little range, but watch out for the tip. Even though the sweetspots are smaller, a good marth will know how to space them properly.
 

Camalange

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:4wiifit:
Wii Fit vs. Sonic is an interesting MU to talk about. The neutral is very tricky for both sides, as Wii Fit's common approach of Bair threat to B-Reverse Sun threat is simply too slow on setting up and allows Sonic to just blow through it with a Spin Charge. In the same breath, though, a lot of Sonic's straightforward approaches also get walled out extremely effectively by Headers and Suns at any charge. For the most part, Sonic needs to play at that awkward range where it's too dangerous for Wii Fit to start charging a Sun, at risk of being Spin Charged on. It's very dangerous for Sonic to enter this range WHILE Wii Fit is charging the Sun, but if you get there before the charge starts then you'll have a leg up in the oki game.

With that in mind, most Wii Fits will be happy to just relegate to their shields if Sonic manages to get to the correct spacing, and give away a grab relatively freely if necessary, since Sonic's rewards off of throws aren't exactly amazing or anything. This part is very tricky for Sonic to deal with, because if you telegraph your grab too hard, the Wii Fit will probably be able to react and escape properly. And if you try a Spin Dash/Charge, that's fine and all for some good shield pressure, but if you got blocked, then you'll end up giving Wii Fit space to charge her Suns and heal up a little, which is never fun. The closer you can get to Wii Fit, the better, because it'll be tougher for her to react to the Spin Charge/Grab mixup.

For the Spin Charge/Grab mixup, Wii Fit can either continue to shield or use a hail mary Sun vs. Spin Charge, and she can use a Jab, Ftilt, or dodge option vs. Grab. However, she doesn't have an option that beats both, so if you look carefully for patterns on what she thinks you're going to do and how she responds to that, then you can figure it out.

That's all I have to say. There's not much to the offstage game because both characters are capable of circumventing each others' edgeguards to a very large degree. And any other advantages that either character has, such as Wii Fit's ability to fight in the air, or Sonic's amazing spacing game with tilts do not affect the matchup that heavily.

I believe this matchup is straight up even, 50:50
I didn't think of it at Xeno, but we should money match or something sometime to see how we both feel about the match-up now.

Doubles doesn't really count, lol.

:093:
 

Ax^2

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Sonic vs Link is a match up that I know of somewhat. Link can stop our spin charge/dash with his boomerang and arrows, except his arrows may also damage us as well depending on how much the spin attack was charged. Link has mid ranged attacks and his smashes reach far and deal a quite a bit of damage/knockback. He can punish if we approach from above with an up smash, can kill us with an f smash if we arent careful, and use his tether grab to punish or attack at a distance when used in the air. His down air can hit multiple times if we're on the ground.

Luckily, some of his moves have some end lag that we can exploit, like his f smash and grab. You can bait a f smash and combo him to deal a good 25%, same with a grab. Bait a grab then just spot dodge it and give him the pain. Link's projectiles aren't that hard to avoid. I recommend just blocking his boomerangs and bombs, and just jump over the arrows. Link has a decent recovery and you can't really punish his up b without getting hit, he can also extend his recovery with his bomb, as when it explodes and damages him, he gets another up b. I personally aim to get him in the bottom corners of the stage because he cant get back onto the stage as easy or at all some time. Sonic beats Link in edgeguarding and speed, but can be camped out by the use of projectiles.

I would say sonic wins by a small margin.
 

PeliPenguin

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peligod2
:4marth::4lucina:
For the sake of consistency I'll just be referring to Marth throughout, since Lucina is a clone. Of course, Lucina lacks the tipper effect on her sword, but she is still played the same as Marth, which is a graceful sword wielder focusing on spacing.

Against Marth the typical bait and punish game works to a good effect. Although he has a disjoint, many of his moves have notable ending lag and short hitbox durations, so getting in on him isn't too difficult in my opinion. However, in terms of where you want to be against Marth you absolutely want to stay out of tipper range. From there, Marth can easily pressure and bait relatively safely. You either want to be far away, or right next to him when attacking as his frame data isn't particularly remarkable. Gaining stage control and the lead is very beneficial in this match up, as Marth can struggle if he can't regain space he needs, so pressure is also quite effective. Additionally, he lacks ways to force us to approach him so we can time him out as well, if you're willing to. Gimping him is fairly straightforward, as he has average air speed with one very linear recovery option, although its difficult to hit him out of it. Dsmash and fair are pretty good edgeguarding tools as always.

I'm gonna be honest, I don't get how his combo throw works at all. APPARENTLY he has dthrow followups at low% but I've yet to actually be hit by them consistently by simply DIing up and away and jumping. I'd appreciate it if a Marth main could educate me on this one. Even if he does have that, his grab game is still overall rather poor, his throws have mediocre damage and knockback with no follow up potential past low%, so shielding is safer compared to most other mus, but don't overuse it as Marth can simply poke your shield with tippers or potentially unleash the Shield Breaker. But its worth keeping in mind his uthrow can kill around 140% with rage, earlier on platforms.

Despite our plentiful advantages Marth can certainly hold his own. As mentioned before, being cornered and pressured by him isn't fun, especially on stages with platforms in which he can easily shark with utilts. Although his combo game is sub par, the individual damage of his moves can rack up serious %, and his tipper fsmash can KO at very early percentages, I've died at about 20% on the ledge when hit by it. Its important not to let him intimidate you, as being a fast annoying hedgehog is the best way to go in this MU.

Most of this applies to Lucina, but she lacks the tipper mechanic which essentially means she's worse at building damage, as her moves being stronger up close is rather pointless considering she focuses on keeping you away like Marth does.

Ban Battlefield and Dreamland, FD and Duck Hunt are ideal.

General stuff on Marth/Lucina
  • B reversed Shield Breaker can be used as a mixup, I think the name alone suggests you should just avoid it. Its very punishable on whiff.
  • They have a counter, but compared to the OP counters that Sakurai loves giving DLC characters its rather underwhelming. Bait it out as usual.
  • Always DI away and jump when dthrown, prevents follow ups past low%
  • Jab1>Fsmash is a kill set up, jumping away seems to escape it every time.
  • DI up and away if hit by sideb, I think only a few of their chain attacks are true combos.
  • Be wary when punishing landings, although they suffer from considerable landing lag, their aerials boast long reach which can catch you off guard.

:4sonic: 55:45 :4marth::4lucina:

:4link:
The ambassador of For Glory himself, Link is generally very defensive in his playstyle.

Link's go to projectile are without a doubt his bombs. They are an item much like the gyro and Peach's turnips. In a similar vein to Toon Link, bombs make up his combo game and kill set ups. Shielding them is the safest way to deal with them, but if you're feeling ballsy you can catch the bombs and use them against him. Unfortunately, we can't hold bombs forever and he can just pull more out, so we can't camp with them like against R.O.B. His other projectiles include his boomerang, which pops you up and in a bad situation, as Link can easily beat out Sonic in the air with powerful disjoints. His bow is generally used to punish landings and tech chase. Its worth remembering that Link cannot KO you off his projectiles from a far range, as he has to be close to use bomb combos, so if we get the lead we can force him to approach us, which he is weaker at compared to being defensive.

Link's tilts and smash attacks are very powerful, but equally punishable, baiting them out is essential in this MU, we can condition him to use them more if we are persistent at approaching and pressuring, which opens up punish opportunities, as he lacks safe options up close. His grab game is also rather bad. Although he has combos at low% and potential kill set up in dthrow uair, its generally risky for him to go for it as his grab has huge endlag. Shielding is a safer option in this MU compared to most.

Attempting to edgeguard Link is essential, his recovery is very slow overall and not far reaching at all, fair and spring work wonders at gimping him. Spring can also catch him if he tethers below the stage, but requires good timing.

Link in general is slow, and can struggle to get the kill if he can't land his finishing moves. Patient is key. Always remember he can't kill you with his projectiles, and just perfect shield and be on the look out for his punishable finishing moves.

Avoid Dreamland and Battlefield, Smashville is probably ideal as FD and Duck Hunt give Link room to camp.

General stuff on Link:
  • Jab > Dsmash isn't a true combo, but can kill, always jump away.
  • He can use dair to pressure shield, if he bounces once, he can strike again whilst also landing laglessly, be wary when punishing it.
  • His Uthrow can kill around 160%, bait out the grab around this %, as Link may get impatient.
  • Fsmash is a two hit move, but Link may not always go for the second hit, running shield grab seems to be the best way to punish this.
  • Never let him pull out a bomb for free, run in and punish if they pull a bomb unsafely.
  • Link can use pivot ftilts to bait Sonic in. Be cautious.
  • Experiment with bomb combos, I don't know any myself but if Sonic can catch the bomb there may be kill set ups we can do.

:4sonic: 55:45 :4link:
 

ToonKake

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All i gotta say I LOVE DIS Thread it has helped me throguth out a LOT of my Torney matches/anthers ive had so far.
as for the thing with the Link Matchup ive Faced some tough Links One where he relyed on his Boomerang to reel u in whenever u would go in with approches he would Jab into Grab Jab into up Tilt, up tilt into up smash i believe i was gettin baited a lot soo this thread has helped a lot KEEP IT UP MY FELLOW SONIC MAINS :)
 

RudyTutti

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A decent Marth/Link just appeared at my locals so I'm starting to feel out these matchups. I don't think they're exactly hard for us because of our speed and combo game. For the Falchions I'd say it's a matter of staying out of reach (Marth's especially) and punishing their laggier moves. Like PeliPenguin PeliPenguin mentioned, we should be wary of their aerial reach while trying to get in. But once we're in, I feel we can do a lot of damage because they can struggle to get us out safely. I also feel that shield should be used sparingly in this matchup because they can give good shield pokes (i.e. Neutral B.).

For the Hero of Time I think this matchup is about pressure (and lots of it). Links can camp us out with his plethora of projectiles so in order to get in powersheilds are our best friend. He also has Nair that's quick and lasts long so we have to watch out for it.
 

Rucent

Only strive for first place.
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Let's head on over to :4sonic: vs :4gaw:and :4sonic: vs :4olimar::4alph:!

Click Here to vote for the next two characters!

In order to keep discussions in the thread as organized as possible, I wish for those participating to show the character stock icon of the disscussed character before talking about them. Kinda like this. :GCD:
:4littlemac:#:#
Keep him in the air, so he can't exploit his strong ground game.
:4shulk:#:#
You can camp out his Monado arts.

Thank you! :drflip:
 

StripedNinja

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StripedNinja
Hey, Olimar player here. This is what I think of the matchup-
Olimar is a character that tries to wall his opponent out so quick characters like Sonic designed to break that are sort of exactly what Olimar doesn't like, putting it at Sonics advantage. However I don't think Olimar is hopeless in this matchup.
For one, Olimar covers ground approaches far better than arial approaches, and Sonics air approach is not nearly as good as his ground approach, and pretty easy to stuff out if we see it coming. Because of that Sonics approach, while very solid, can be pretty linear and reliant on Olimar making a mistake.
Fsmash does a decent job of keeping sonic back, clanking with a lot of his options and sometimes beating out spindash (I'm unsure about the exact variables that determine when it does and doesn't). It is less safe in this matchup than others due to Sonics speed but still solid mixed with pivots and purples which also very important for disrupting approaches. Another thing is sonic can suffer a lot from his attacks lagging when hitting pikmin latched to him, making a lot of Sonics moves less safe. This isn't the worse thing in the world due Sonic having some decent options to get rid of Pikmin but can still be a significant issue against an Olimar persistant with his projectile pressurse.
Offstage, Olimars recovery is easier to intercept but Sonics is obviously a lot shorter and decently abusable, and I would maybe give the edge little bit to Olimar in having the edge here but not by much, both have different weaknesses in this area.
I'm not sure how to do the character icon for my phone? So I'll just say I think this matchup is-
60-40 for Sonic
 
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Sensane

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IMO this is one of Olimar's worst matchups. Down b absolutely decimates pikmin and Oli's weight is light enough for him to die early from one of our punishes. I don't really give scores so I'll just leave it to the opinions of Olimar mains and the pros.
 

Folie

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135
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Calgary, AB
:4gaw:
A lot of things get argued about in the G&W community but it seems one of the main things we can come to practically universal agreement on is that Sonic is EASILY one of our worst MUs in the game, if not THE worst or second worst. Sonic is excellent at exposing G&W heaviest weaknesses in neutral. Against a patient Sonic, I feel like I have to perfectly bait a punish and time a read in order to make any real progress against Sonic as we have no decent projectile and practically no good options on shield. Sonic can honestly just play ultra patient, wait for G&W to throw out a move or bait one out and punish and work from there.

G&W's only real saving graces in this MU is his strong recovery, with startup invincibility being able to break through attempted spring gimps (and even if G&W messes up and gets hit by the spring, he can usually still recover) and making runoff dair risky to try, and ability to punish poor aggressive decisions (especially homing attack) by sonic in neutral through disjoints and Usmash.

@SeanS can probably give a way better analysis than me, being very experienced and skilled in the MU and G&W in general

Numbers are weird but based on everyone's scaling, the MU would probably be something like
:4sonic:70:30:4gaw: or :4sonic:75:25:4gaw:

https://youtu.be/JTRqyqiTmEU?t=22m1s Regi VS Komorikiri G3 Crew Battles
 
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koken

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Coquimbo, Chile
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Kokenz
Hi guys, sorry for interrupt.

I just want to say that Sonic has a clear advantage in my opinion, for multiple reason. One of them is the speed, mindgames and movements.
Sonic can bait a lot of moves and wait for the precise moment. Olimar can throw his pikmin but they don't annoy as much they can against others characters.
The speed of sonic and the good ability of the player, may lead an Olimar to make several mistakes and that's where Sonic has a clear chance of advantage.
If you keep making false attacks and make errant moves, it will be a time out or a desperation for the Olimar player, making things positive for Sonic. If you keep getting a pikmin latched and don't do anything to take them off or build some damage, building damage against sonic and the victory is easy for us.
Also an Olimar with 2 Purples may be and should be a pain in the #$%. With that in mind, you will be forced to enter and that may gives us more advantage at the moment we control the ground if you let us act freely.

Fsmash as StripedNinja StripedNinja said is a good tool to keep you at distance, but you can screw that with a jump or well timed aerials, with a certain amount of risk anyway.

Sonic's recovery is easy to predict but has some uses to mix up. You still have some options and movements from there, giving him more mobility also.
Juggling an Olimar should not be a difficult thing for Sonic.

I would say as well is Sonic 60-40 only when the Sonic player is unpredictable.
If Sonic gets predictable I would change that into Olimar favor 60 - 40 .
 

PeliPenguin

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:4gaw:
I couldn't tell you, I've never fought a decent GnW. But from what others have said it seems like we can play our usual bait and punish game. It also seems as if GnW doesn't really have a consistent answer to the spin dash as well as having notable end lag on his attacks, so it looks like we win.

As for the ratio, its difficult to give an accurate one but at worst its...
:4sonic:55-45:4gaw:

:4olimar:
Olimar's gameplan is to camp Pikmin and use his rather limited combos and stray hits to rack up damage, but the latter two are less likely to happen if we play safely, as Olimar has a terrible approach. He relys on camping with sideb and spaced fsmash to keep us out. Problem for him is, we're too fast to reliably wall out with Pikmin, so they become more of a nuisance than anything.

Pikmin have a variety of unique properties when it comes to interacting with Sonic's attacks. Whilst we can mow down Pikmin with our spins (except purples) they also us slow us down making our spins very readable and easy to react to. Nair is also effective at clearing Pikmin if you don't want to commit to a spin. Any Pikmin latched onto us makes HA completely useless, as we'll simply rebound off it instead of targeting Olimar. Its worth remembering that if you're shielding Pikmin can't latch onto you at all, but be careful as Olimar can easily condition shield with Pikmin and go for a grab, and with blue Pikmin can possibly KO us at high%.

If you don't want to get pelted by Pikmin all day, its absolutely crucial to get him into disadvantage, he is slow, light and easy to juggle and pressure offstage. Although he can attack out of his recovery, it leaves him helpless, as well as being obviously telegraphed if he decides to recover high. Any other time we can just keep hitting him, since he has no real ways of mixing up his movement due to his bad airspeed. Additionally, if Olimar does anything in neutral that isn't a spaced fsmash or Pikmin throw we can easily punish him, if he throws out a SH fair you basically get a free spin dash combo if you're ready for it.

Olimar can be frustrating to deal with in neutral, as our approach is very linear and he has the tools to pester us and gain control of the pace of the game on the ground, but once we get in we can easily make up for all the chip damage, we also have the advantage of easily KOing him because of his light weight. As long as we play patiently in neutral and don't commit to spins he can't really touch us outside of chip damage from Pikmin, which we can easily nullify.

Although Olimar limits us in neutral, we can rack up a lot of damage once we get in, whereas when we get the lead and Olimar has to approach he can really struggle with our speed, as his safe options are the least damaging as we can deal with Pikmin easily.

:4sonic:60-40:4olimar:
 

Rucent

Only strive for first place.
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Let's head on over to :4sonic: vs :4dk:and :4sonic: vs :4feroy:!

In order to keep discussions in the thread as organized as possible, I wish for those participating to show the character stock icon of the disscussed character before talking about them. Kinda like this. :GCD:
:4littlemac:#:#
Keep him in the air, so he can't exploit his strong ground game.
:4shulk:#:#
You can camp out his Monado arts.

It'll also be appreciated if stages where mentioned, along with a ratio of sorts to show who wins or not.
Also, the two characters we'll disscuss after the above mentioned ones will be :4bayonetta: and :4corrinf:. That will start at the beginning of April. We will also rediscuss :4cloud2: then.

Thank you! :drflip:
 

Sensane

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Rneophyte
:4dk:60:40
Been waiting to talk about the dk mu......for so long that I forgot what notes I have for it XP. Oh well, he's a big guy, so we can easily combo him. I'd assume that d-throw would get him in a bad offstage position thanks to its awesome angle, then go for either a footstool or d-air spike, but don't do this too often because although the spagghetti spin (it's what I call his up b because of how bad it is in terms of design, gameplay, functionality, and especially how it represents the character) doesn't gain a lot of vertical distance, its horizontal distance is tremendous, so only use this as a trick to use when dk is at high percents. I'd overall say that Sonic has the clear advantage in this, but dk's range is very good for someone with no weapons. Teach him a lesson for beating up our favorite red echidna.

:4feroy:
Don't have a score for this one since I've only faced one Roy on Anther's Ladder. Though to be fair, the guy kicked my ***. Roy can pressure us just as much as Peach can. Unlike Peach, however, Roy has strong mobility in both the ground and the air. Also unlike Peach, he's fine without turnips and isn't as threatened when cornered. So far I'd say three things:
1. Roy can't land very well and his fast falling speed makes him susceptible to juggling, so exploit it as much as possible and bait counters.
2. In a sense he's like little mac with a viable air game, but he can't do very well offstage.
3. Roy has trouble reliably sealing a stock, so when all else fails, he'll be forced to get into a position where he has to rely on a punish. Just bait one of his said punishes like you would any other character and punish his attempt.
 

ToonKake

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ToOn_Cake
:4dk:60:40
Been waiting to talk about the dk mu......for so long that I forgot what notes I have for it XP. Oh well, he's a big guy, so we can easily combo him. I'd assume that d-throw would get him in a bad offstage position thanks to its awesome angle, then go for either a footstool or d-air spike, but don't do this too often because although the spagghetti spin (it's what I call his up b because of how bad it is in terms of design, gameplay, functionality, and especially how it represents the character) doesn't gain a lot of vertical distance, its horizontal distance is tremendous, so only use this as a trick to use when dk is at high percents. I'd overall say that Sonic has the clear advantage in this, but dk's range is very good for someone with no weapons. Teach him a lesson for beating up our favorite red echidna.

:4feroy:
Don't have a score for this one since I've only faced one Roy on Anther's Ladder. Though to be fair, the guy kicked my ***. Roy can pressure us just as much as Peach can. Unlike Peach, however, Roy has strong mobility in both the ground and the air. Also unlike Peach, he's fine without turnips and isn't as threatened when cornered. So far I'd say three things:
1. Roy can't land very well and his fast falling speed makes him susceptible to juggling, so exploit it as much as possible and bait counters.
2. In a sense he's like little mac with a viable air game, but he can't do very well offstage.
3. Roy has trouble reliably sealing a stock, so when all else fails, he'll be forced to get into a position where he has to rely on a punish. Just bait one of his said punishes like you would any other character and punish his attempt.


yea man seriously i believe its more of a bait & Punish game When it comes to facing DK players from what i noticed a lot is that DK tends to use a lot of Down Tilt or Neutual Jabs to Stop Our Approching so we gotta mix it up
from what i like to do wen i get in on a DK player who puts up walls i spin jump land do a Quick empty hop into air doge Nair on em den up Tilt & up air as fast as i can before they can Air doddge to counter attack also ur gonna REALLY WANNT AVOID HIS GRAB INTO UP THROW INTO UAIR... that is the type of imput i can give for this matchup
 

PeliPenguin

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peligod2
:4dk:
The first member of the DK crew is one of the more difficult heavies to deal with, as his spacing options and ability to KO put him above the others of his archtype.

His moveset doesn't really restrict how we play at all, so our usual game of bait and punish or however you play sonic will work as well as it usually does. Bair,dtilt, jab and ftilt are the moves to watch out for in neutral, as DK outranges us with longer limbs which can stop us in our tracks and give him stage control, and everyone knows how fun it is to be in disadvantage against someone as strong and mobile as DK. Although they can be difficult to deal with they're all easy to bait out and punish, so we can control the pace of the match. His weight means he can KO us earlier than we KO him, especially when he has rage and using his infamous ding dong setup, which can KO as low as 50% off a grab, depending on stage selection. We're in serious trouble if he gets an early stock this way, since his survivablity makes it hard to make a comeback. The only way for him to make us approach him is through Giant Punch charging, but Giant Punch is less threatening than something like a Samus Charge Shot so rush down isn't essential, but can be useful.

The key to beating DK is similar to other heavies, which is exploit him as much as you can when hes in disadvantage. DK is one of the easiest characters to combo, he really can't land and his recovery is linear and leaves him open to good edgeguarding. We can also camp him pretty hard, since his own approach isn't spectacular and he lacks a projectile. However, don't underestimate his ability to comeback, be on your toes and stay patient, DK can struggle to deal with a Sonic who stays safe and attacks when he can, overcommiting will get you showered with coconut cream pies.

General stuff on DK
- His Upb on the ground has armour on start up, keep this in mind as he can use it if he reads an aggressive approach
- Giant Punch can be B-reversed in the air as a movement option, be aware of patterns
- When offstage with him, keep in mind he has many spikes including fair,dair,sideb and downb, all of them are fairly telegraphed
- Side B and Down B can deal heavy shield damage, downb is very dangerous if he corners us especially
- His approach in the air when he is facing you is really bad, more often than not they'll have their back to you so they can bair you, pay attention and you can tell what he's up to
- His Utilt can cover platforms very well, be careful he catches you on there

:4sonic:55-45:4dk:

:4feroy:
Roy is a speedy swordsman who doesn't focus on spacing, but rather a powerful close up game. On paper that sounds like he's quite powerful but fortunately he is pretty simple to deal with.

Roy lacks a projectile and has no way to make us approach him. However if he gets the lead then he can use nair, dtilt and jab in an attempt to keep us out. They do a good job of blocking spin dash, but Roy's sourspots means if we run in shield he is very easy to shield grab out of his attacks so he ends up playing a very heavy mixup game due to the lack of safety in his neutral. As such, its very easy to punish him if he guesses wrong, and our own mixups have more safety and less commitment than his. Roy boasts high kill power with a lot of powerful moves, but he lacks kill setups and they all require sweetspots so if we play patient he can really struggle to land a decisive blow.

We can juggle and combo Roy easily because of his fall speed, and gimp him easily with spring. Compared to us he ultimately gets significantly less reward with much greater risk. Despite this he is still capable of comebacks if he can land his sweetspotted attacks, particularly his fsmash which can kill as low as 70%.

General stuff on Roy:
- Upb has super armour on start up when used on the ground (sounds familiar), its a solid oos option so be sure to respect shield at kill%
- NeutralB has suprisingly little cooldown, don't get baited by it
- His counter is 5.99 levels of power, but its knockback angle is forgiving, hes unlikely to use it against Sonic who has few powerful moves worth countering
- DI away and jumping avoids many of his grab combos
- His uthrow can KO at around 160%,be ultra patient and watch out for the grab around this % as Roy may get frustrated, allowing more opportunities to punish him

:4sonic:60-40:4feroy:
 
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