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Data Sonic and the Book of Matchups

ToonKake

So Animated
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Please use the "Edit" feature to avoid double posts!
Were prob gonna have to do a Sonic V Cloud or what ever other char Sakurai is dishin out on Dec in a copuples months lol
& can anyone help me out on the Sonic V Luigi Matchups ? i just cannot Stand Weegee somtimes i fought a dope ass Weegee & he pretty much shot down my confidence on The Luigi Matchups lol & used to be soo good at it lol.

Done the hard work for ya:


|:4mario:|:4luigi:|:4peach:|:4bowser:|:4yoshi:|:rosalina:|:4bowserjr:|:4wario:|:4gaw:
:4sonic:|?:?|±0|+1|?:?|?:?|-1|-1|±0|?:?
|:4dk:|:4diddy:|:4link:|:4zelda:|:4sheik:|:4ganondorf:|:4tlink:|:4samus:|:4zss:
:4sonic:|?:?|±0|?:?|+1|±0|?:?|?:?|?:?|-1
|:4palutena:|:4pit:|:4marth:|:4myfriends:|:4robinm:|:4kirby:|:4dedede:|:4metaknight:|:4littlemac:
:4sonic:|?:?|?:?|?:?|?:?|?:?|?:?|?:?|+1|?:?
|:4fox:|:4falco:|:4pikachu:|:4charizard:|:4lucario:|:4jigglypuff:|:4greninja:|:4duckhunt:|:4rob:
:4sonic:|-1|?:?|±0|?:?|?:?|?:?|?:?|?:?|?:?
|:4ness:|:4falcon:|:4villager:|:4olimar:|:4wiifit:|:4drmario:|:4darkpit:|:4lucina:|:4shulk:
:4sonic:|?:?|±0|±0|?:?|?:?|?:?|?:?|?:?|?:?
|:4pacman:|:4megaman:|:4sonic:|:4mewtwo:|:4lucas:|:4feroy:|:4ryu:|:substitute:|
:4sonic:|?:?|-1|±0|?:?|?:?|?:?|?:?|?:?|
|:4miibrawl:|:4miigun:|:4miisword:|
:4sonic:|?:?|?:?|?:?
All you have to do is quote my post, then copy and paste the table to OP :p

Could u or somone explain this to me how this chart goes?
i would greatly appreciate it im tryna become the BEST SONIC PLAYER IN CANADA BTW.
 
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CyberHyperPhoenix

"Download Complete."
Joined
Sep 11, 2014
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Location
Down on the corner, out in the street.
Could u or somone explain this to me how this chart goes?
i would greatly appreciate it im tryna become the BEST SONIC PLAYER IN CANADA BTW.
So say you do a discussion of the Sonics vs... Ike Matchup (theoretical situation btw) and the it is determined that the MU is +1 in Sonic's favour.

What OP would do, is that they would change the "?:?" underneath the Ike icon/emote to "+1", indicating the MU is in Sonic's favour.

And that is pretty much it :p
 

FiXalaS

Smash Apprentice
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Jun 16, 2014
Messages
194
Switch FC
4293-9334-7517
This mu is pretty tough for Pit. None of his grounded moves or specials clank with spin dash, and his poor speed makes punishing shielded spin dashes really tough. Pit more or less has to guess perfectly and use aerials to stop Sonic's approach; all of pit's aerials have 20 or more frames landing lag, so if he guessed wrong, punishing is real easy.

If say 70:30 Sonic's favor, but it might be even worse than that.
Nah. so much wrong

our moves beat Sonic, at worst clash with fully charged spin dash.

Pit's aerials auto-cancel, you'll be surprised with their speed when you fight a good pit.

Pit's running speed is very good, too, no need to travel in the air.

oh and.. we excel at range... and arrows can force sonic to approach without spin dash

Nair Beats Sonic's Neutral B

what more...? Oh you die fast but we don't, and if you didn't die from Fthrow, Sonic's likely getting gimped. Upperdash and USmash Kill sonic fast, too.
 

Camalange

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There's no way Sonic beats Pit 7:3 but Sonic still isn't very likely to get gimped... Plus, Sonic and Pit are like nearly identical in weight so both will be dying around the same time. Pit may have an easier time landing the KO moves because Side-B has super armor, but his Smashes aren't safe on block. Our Fsmash is safer, and sure, you have Fthrow, but we still have decent kill throws too. Pit can clank with Sonic's spins really easily though.

I'd say it's probably pretty even. I could see it favouring Sonic slightly.

:093:
 

Attila_

The artist formerly known as 'shmot'
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Jul 22, 2008
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Location
Melbourne, Australia
Nah. so much wrong

our moves beat Sonic, at worst clash with fully charged spin dash.

Pit's aerials auto-cancel, you'll be surprised with their speed when you fight a good pit.

Pit's running speed is very good, too, no need to travel in the air.

oh and.. we excel at range... and arrows can force sonic to approach without spin dash

Nair Beats Sonic's Neutral B

what more...? Oh you die fast but we don't, and if you didn't die from Fthrow, Sonic's likely getting gimped. Upperdash and USmash Kill sonic fast, too.
What move beats spin dash? I what world is that even possible?

Priority is based on damage; none of our moves do enough damage to beat it. They all clank. Most characters have an usmash/fsmash that do enough damage to beat spin dash outright, but Pit's fsmash/usmash are multi hit, so they just clank.

In order to autocancel any of Pit's aerials, you need to initiate them immediately out of short hop. This means that Pit has a MINIMUM of 25 frames without a hitbox if he wants to autocancel. Pretty sure Sonic can move across an entire stage in that time. Pit's aerial frame data is actually among the worst in the game.

Baiting with tomahawks and landing with fair is usually better, but fair itself still has 20 frames landing lag, and the final hit only does 4% anyway. So even if the Pit perfectly predicts the timing of the spin dash, he hits Sonic with 4% and no potential follow up. That's pretty bad.

Pit's ground speed is 23rd in the game; nothing to write home about, and nowhere near as fast as Sonic. In fact, this is only barely faster than Sonic's air speed lol

Worth mentioning that Pit actually has poor disjoint also, since his swords have hurtboxes. Sonic's fsmash/bair have waaaaay more range than anything that Pit could ever do.

Arrows don't force an approach; spin dash clanks and sonic has frame advantage. So he can spin dash again lol. Arrows follow things up and force airdodges; they NEVER force an approach.

Assuming that Sonic is camping with spin dashes, Pit should never actually get a grab. So getting that kill becomes seriously hard. Upperdash Arm is really terrible; minimum 19 frames startup... Does Sonic even have 19 frames lag on anything? Spin dash also travels too fast and goes through, allowing an fsmash punish. And Usmash is really yolo and predictable, and gets punished super hard on whiff.

Should probably mention that Upperdash arm also only has partial super armour; Pit's head, body and legs don't have any armour. So the opponent just has to know where to aim.

I fail to see how Sonic can ever be edgeguarded; mulitple recovery options and invincibility on upB... Good luck with that one. Sonic can fsmash Pit when he recovers under the stage though lol.

There's no way Sonic beats Pit 7:3 but Sonic still isn't very likely to get gimped... Plus, Sonic and Pit are like nearly identical in weight so both will be dying around the same time. Pit may have an easier time landing the KO moves because Side-B has super armor, but his Smashes aren't safe on block. Our Fsmash is safer, and sure, you have Fthrow, but we still have decent kill throws too. Pit can clank with Sonic's spins really easily though.

I'd say it's probably pretty even. I could see it favouring Sonic slightly.

:093:
Pit only has one safe, legitimate KO option in fthrow, which doesn't really happen in this mu. Everything else is super laggy and committal without a setup, meaning Pit needs a god-like read otherwise he'll die for trying. Sonic has legitimate edgeguards and juggle attempts, and his fsmash is only punishable on shield with dash attack (which doesn't do anything).

Spoke about sideB already; if you get hit by this, you're doing something seriously wrong, or getting hard read for spotdodging.

Pit doesn't want to clank with sonic ever, because sonic simply out frame-data's him; all Pit's moves are slower with more lag. Having Sonic inside your spacing should never lead to good things.

Probably should also mention that this MU made Earth pick up a secondary, despite the fact that he played through the entire brawl era without ever using another character. That probably says more than anything else.
 

Camalange

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What is it with everyone acting like every Sonic player is a perfect computer? I mean, I know we're amazing at this game, but... I don't get this kind of match-up debate.

Making statements saying that Sonic will never get grabbed, assuming he makes the right choice every time, is not a discussion I'm about to have. In that theorycraft, then sure, Sonic wins every match-up 9:1.

Sonic only has one aerial that can be autocanceled with a fastfall, and that's Uair. Every other aerial needs to be either full jumped or not fast fallen to be autocanceled.

Pit has a projectile, grab combos, and a kill throw. Please don't invalidate your own character theorizing that Pit should never get grabs. That's absurd.

Saying that Sonic is way faster than Pit on the ground is also a redundant point because if that's literally all it would take to be the best character, then Sonic would theoretically win every single match-up in the game because he is twice the speed of the second fastest character, so again, not sure how Pit suffers so much more tremendously from this one. Sonic is the same speed as Brawl. You would be assuming that your opponent can read your inputs as you press them and be there with the perfect answer. The fact that Pit can autocancel aerials at all, has multiple jumps, a projectile, etc. gives him more of an edge than some characters can attest for.

Sonic's invincibility is only for a few frames on the start-up of Up-B, just for clarification.

A lot of other points could be made, but yeah.

:093:
 

Attila_

The artist formerly known as 'shmot'
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Melbourne, Australia
Most characters have one grounded move that will beat spin dash. Pit does not.

Most characters have an aerial with less than 20 frames landing lag. Pit does not.

Most character have the air speed to chase Sonic after he spin dashes on shield. Pit does not.

Most characters have a projectile that gives frame advantage on hit/shield. Pit does not.

Like I said earlier, not even Earth is willing to play this MU anymore. He's the best Pit in the world, and someone who stuck through Pit completely in a game where he was mid tier. But even he thinks this MU facilitates the need for a secondary. This is pretty easily Pit's worst MU.
 

FiXalaS

Smash Apprentice
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Messages
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I'm sorry Attila, but there is so much wrong in that post you clearly don't know the matchup.

I won't do this. I hope others can put in some great info about this matchup.
 

Camalange

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It seems a lot of Japanese players think their character loses horribly to Sonic, so I take that with a grain of salt.

Also, still confused by this whole aerial thing. I know for a fact that at least Pit's Fair and Nair can be SH'd with no lag. They can be FF toward the end after an ascending aerial as well.

Sonic is pretty much the same. It's not like Sonic can just run up and wall you out with... Bair. SH Fair is bad because it's not safe on shield, and even on hit, almost every character won't get hit by all the parts of Fair since it's multi-hit. Bair is decent for spacing, but slow, and punishable on shield since it can't be fastfallen or acted out of until he touches the ground. Nair is only good as a falling option or combo escaper/starter. Dair is Dair, lmao, and Uair is an amazing juggle move, but an awful approach move. Even with the autocancel, it's super punishable on block.

So... If you want to play the frame game... There's that.
I'm sorry Attila, but there is so much wrong in that post you clearly don't know the matchup.

I won't do this. I hope others can put in some great info about this matchup.
Sorry that you've been discouraged, but let's try not to discourage others in the process.

:093:
 

Mr. ShinyUmbreon

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Most characters have one grounded move that will beat spin dash. Pit does not.
Arrows? Last I checked, that beats Spindash.
Most characters have an aerial with less than 20 frames landing lag. Pit does not.
Ever heard of platforms? Which Pit can retreat to after doing d-air on shield, and not get punished. (Thank you patch 1.1.1)
Believe it or not, it's possible for a Pit main to ban Final Destination. I do it all the time.
Most characters have a projectile that gives frame advantage on hit/shield. Pit does not.
Arrows can hit you anywhere and force you to dodge or shield, they can get power-shielded, but they still force you to shield or dodge anywhere from a distant. Unless you play Dark Pit *Sad Violin Plays*
Most character have the air speed to chase Sonic after he spin dashes on shield. Pit does not.
Again, doesn't need to when you have a projectile that can force you to dodge anywhere.

I'm starting to question how much knowledge you have of Pit.
It seems a lot of Japanese players think their character loses horribly to Sonic, so I take that with a grain of salt.
Yeah, Japan is very different from America, not to say Japanese players are worse than Western Players, just that they have a different meta.
Also, still confused by this whole aerial thing. I know for a fact that at least Pit's Fair and Nair can be SH'd with no lag. They can be FF toward the end after an ascending aerial as well.
Spot on, Like I said earlier, you can also D-air on shield and escape to a platform above. But Pit players have to retreat when they do F-air on sheild, it's like sword characters F-airing on shield, In fact, lot's of Pit mains consider Pit to be a sword character, but this isn't the place to discuss that. Unfortuanately faster characters can Punish F-air on shield, sonic Included. I can't really talk about N-air on shield, it's kind of... weird, also if you land while still executing the attack, you'll suffer a lot of landing lag.
 
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Attila_

The artist formerly known as 'shmot'
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Also, still confused by this whole aerial thing. I know for a fact that at least Pit's Fair and Nair can be SH'd with no lag. They can be FF toward the end after an ascending aerial as well.

Sonic is pretty much the same. It's not like Sonic can just run up and wall you out with... Bair. SH Fair is bad because it's not safe on shield, and even on hit, almost every character won't get hit by all the parts of Fair since it's multi-hit. Bair is decent for spacing, but slow, and punishable on shield since it can't be fastfallen or acted out of until he touches the ground. Nair is only good as a falling option or combo escaper/starter. Dair is Dair, lmao, and Uair is an amazing juggle move, but an awful approach move. Even with the autocancel, it's super punishable on block.
Autocancelling occurs at a specific window; the aerial must be out for a certain amount of frames before an autocancel can occur. As such, for Pit to autocancel anything, he must begin the aerial AS SOON AS he short hops (can't delay, use for spacing, bait, etc) and he has AT LEAST 13 frames of no hitbox/shield (assuming frame perfect fast fall) in between the end of the aerial, landing and being able to shield. And that's with his best aerial (fair), the others are worse.

This is important as Pit can only use aerials to beat spin dash. So everytime Sonic starts a spin dash, and Pit wants to be active, he has to jump. If Sonic baits the jump, he goes in for free.

Probably also worth mentioning that Sonic can actually dash under any of Pit's aerials on short hop, with the exception of dair.

Arrows? Last I checked, that beats Spindash.

Ever heard of platforms? Which Pit can retreat to after doing d-air on shield, and not get punished. (Thank you patch 1.1.1)
Believe it or not, it's possible for a Pit main to ban Final Destination. I do it all the time.

Again, doesn't need to when you have a projectile that can force you to dodge anywhere.

I'm starting to question how much knowledge you have of Pit.

Yeah, Japan is very different from America, not to say Japanese players are worse than Western Players, just that they have a different meta.

Spot on, Like I said earlier, you can also D-air on shield and escape to a platform above. But Pit players have to retreat when they do F-air on sheild, it's like sword characters F-airing on shield, In fact, lot's of Pit mains consider Pit to be a sword character, but this isn't the place to discuss that. Unfortuanately faster characters can Punish F-air on shield, sonic Included. I can't really talk about N-air on shield, it's kind of... weird, also if you land while still executing the attack, you'll suffer a lot of landing lag.
Arrows clank with spin dash. They don't have transcendent priority, and anywhere near enough damage.

And arrows never actually force a dodge. You can generate a hitbox to cancel them if you want, or get hit and take the 4% with no potential follow up.

Pit doesn't actually want to retreat to platforms; as a character, he has a hard time returning to the ground (no aerials safe to land with, poor air speed). So while you might get out of immediate danger, this doesn't work as a long term game plan.

Not to mention, that isn't even the problem. Hitting shield is hard in the first place if Sonic just plays Spin Dash and Run.
 
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jordanm43444

Smash Journeyman
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Scotland, Glasgow
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Oh boy the Toon Link MU!
This is something I feel like I kind of know but not 100% on so im gonna list the main point.

WALK. DO. NOT. RUN. Even though im comfortable running and stopping with a SDSC its not that relaiable to get around his projectiles and youll want to shield as soon as you get the chance so walking is by far the best method of approach in this MU.

But yea heres a vid of me trying and failing this MU miserably :c
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yhv_m8sPWMs
 

Sensane

Smash Lord
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Being a Pit/Dark Pit main I can say that Pit does better in this matchup solely because of his arrows. Both arrows beat the spin dashes, but Pit's arrows can actually catch up to Sonic better if Sonic jumps during the spin dash. Also orbitars can halt Sonic's approaches unless if Sonic tries to grab. The orbitars also help GIMP Sonic's recovery if he gets launched far enough.
Oh boy the Toon Link MU!
This is something I feel like I kind of know but not 100% on so im gonna list the main point.

WALK. DO. NOT. RUN. Even though im comfortable running and stopping with a SDSC its not that relaiable to get around his projectiles and youll want to shield as soon as you get the chance so walking is by far the best method of approach in this MU.

But yea heres a vid of me trying and failing this MU miserably :c
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yhv_m8sPWMs
jordanm43444 jordanm43444 You used WAY too much side b. Try baiting the arrows and boomerangs and use more spinshots.
 
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Grandma Wilkins

Smash Cadet
Joined
Sep 25, 2015
Messages
44
Location
Pennsylvania
Hi guys, Tink main here. I'm not the best analyzer but I can give a couple tips here.
  • Always remember that bomb beats Sonic's side B. Just this simple detail make the match up way harder for Sonic, as his best approach option becomes not very good suddenly, as a good Toon Link will always have a bomb in hand against you.
  • NEVER GO TO DUCK HUNT. This is Toon Link's best stage, and even though it is pretty good for Sonic, you will get eaten alive here.
  • Go deep when edge guarding. Toon Link has a bad recovery, and a couple fairs/nairs should prevent him from recovering.
Like I said, I am not the best analyzer, so here is a good video of Europe's best Toon Link against a good Sonic.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E_TLCaGupX0
 

Kupo Rose

It's what my cutie mark is telling me ♫
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Not sure about EU but in terms of UK, it is either Yackabean or Anaky. That Sonic was pretty baaaaad.

Why not Duck Hunt btw?

vs Char. | Player | Opponent | Time | Customs | Link
:4tlink: | Camalange | Biddy | Oct 15 | OFF | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5qcxK-Ch0kM
:4tlink: | Camalange | Biddy | Oct 15 | OFF | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aV5AValryM8
:4tlink: | Craftis | XORN | Oct 15 | OFF | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YliMr81QDF8
:4tlink: | Ixis | Anaky | Nov 15 | OFF | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uh_t3A25eIY
:4tlink: | Vexatious Vex | Biddy | Oct 15 | OFF | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b9Qjip6Nj3M
:4tlink: | Wonf | Hyuga | Oct 15 | OFF | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7pZCMU7QJxA
:4tlink: | Wonf | Hyuga | Oct 15 | OFF | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRosEHqjEQ4


^more recent vids

 
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Grandma Wilkins

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Sep 25, 2015
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Why not Duck Hunt btw?



^more recent vids

You never, ever take a projectile character to Duck Hunt. They get to set up their wall for free, and even Sonic will have trouble getting through that wall. Plus, a good Toon Link will be constantly setting up free fairs for an easy kill.
 

Grandma Wilkins

Smash Cadet
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You never, ever take a projectile character to Duck Hunt. They get to set up their wall for free, and even Sonic will have trouble getting through that wall. Plus, a good Toon Link will be constantly setting up free fairs for an easy kill.
Plus, thanks for more videos. I wasn't able to find much with the time I had.
 

Kupo Rose

It's what my cutie mark is telling me ♫
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Sensane

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I still say use more spinshots against TL because it is your best approach. His only projectile capable of hitting you is the bomb, but because you're still in a normal falling state, you can airdodge to catch his bombs. Just try to use cat in the hat and boxobair combos as well.
 

Seagull Joe

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:4sonic:'s matchups entirely from my opinion (:4sonic:'s ratio is on the left and the other character is the right for reading the ratios. Sorry if I made this confusing):
:4bowser:70-30
:4charizard:70-30
:4dedede:50-50
:4diddy:60-40
:4dk:60-40
:4fox:45-55
:4greninja:60-40
:4myfriends:40-60
:4kirby:60-40
:4littlemac:60-40
:4link:50-50
:4lucario:50-50
:4luigi:60-40
:4mario:50-50
:4marth:55-45
:4megaman:50-50
:4olimar:60-40
:4peach:50-50
:4pikachu:50-50
:4pit:50-50
:rosalina:35-65
:4samus:70-30
:4sheik:50-50
:4tlink:50-50
:4sonic:50-50
:4villager:55-45
:4wiifit:55-45
:4yoshi:40-60
:4zelda:70-30
:4zss:50-50
:4palutena:60-40
:4pacman:50-50
:4falcon:50-50
:4lucina:55-45
:4robinm:60-40
:4metaknight:55-45
:4shulk:60-40
:4bowserjr:50-50
:4darkpit:50-50
:4drmario:70-30
:4duckhunt:60-40
:4falco:60-40
:4ganondorf:70-30
:4gaw:70-30
:4jigglypuff:70-30
:4miibrawl:60-40
:4miigun:60-40
:4miisword:70-30
:4ness:60-40
:4rob:50-50
:4wario:55-45
:4mewtwo:70-30
:4lucas:55-45
:4feroy:60-40
:4ryu:55-45

:018:
 
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FallofBrawl

Smash Ace
Joined
Jun 20, 2014
Messages
631
Ryo, an Ike main, has beaten many top level sonics including 6wx and StaticManny (beaten him a lot since they're in the same region.) Ike's range really helps keep sonic out and his boxing game isn't really overmatched by sonics either.
 

DKoopaKid

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:4sonic:'s matchups entirely from my opinion (:4sonic:'s ratio is on the left and the other character is the right for reading the ratios. Sorry if I made this confusing):
:4bowser:70-30
:4charizard:70-30
:4dedede:50-50
:4diddy:60-40
:4dk:60-40
:4fox:45-55
:4greninja:60-40
:4myfriends:40-60
:4kirby:60-40
:4littlemac:60-40
:4link:50-50
:4lucario:50-50
:4luigi:60-40
:4mario:50-50
:4marth:55-45
:4megaman:50-50
:4olimar:60-40
:4peach:50-50
:4pikachu:50-50
:4pit:50-50
:rosalina:35-65
:4samus:70-30
:4sheik:50-50
:4tlink:50-50
:4sonic:50-50
:4villager:55-45
:4wiifit:55-45
:4yoshi:40-60
:4zelda:70-30
:4zss:50-50
:4palutena:60-40
:4pacman:50-50
:4falcon:50-50
:4lucina:55-45
:4robinm:60-40
:4metaknight:55-45
:4shulk:60-40
:4bowserjr:50-50
:4darkpit:50-50
:4drmario:70-30
:4duckhunt:60-40
:4falco:60-40
:4ganondorf:70-30
:4gaw:70-30
:4jigglypuff:70-30
:4miibrawl:60-40
:4miigun:60-40
:4miisword:70-30
:4ness:60-40
:4rob:50-50
:4wario:55-45
:4mewtwo:70-30
:4lucas:55-45
:4feroy:60-40
:4ryu:55-45

:018:
DDD is even? How? This has to be one of DDD's least favorable MUs
 

hypersonicJD

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Why does that matter when Sonic can run circles around DDD? And besides Sonic has frame data advantage and can kill DDD easily on plattaforms (spring to up air on battlefield can kill even with good DI. And even a Fair at high percents).And Sonic gets rid of Gordo's easily too. I really can't see Sonic losing the match-up. You have to play it smart.
 

Sensane

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Pretty much yeah; the MU is more than in Sonic's favor at this point. I was just saying that that was something to consider.
 
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Rucent

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Let's head on over to :4sonic: vs :4pacman:and :4sonic: vs:4myfriends:!

Click Here to vote for the next two characters!

In order to keep discussions in the thread as organized as possible, I wish for those participating to show the character stock icon of the disscussed character before talking about them. Kinda like this. :GCD:

:4littlemac:#:#
Keep him in the air, so he can't exploit his strong ground game.
:4shulk:#:#
You can camp out his Monado arts.

It's also greatly appreciated if a matchup ratio is also mentioned. :)

Thank you! :drflip:
 

Nu~

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:4pacman::4sonic:

Even matchup imo. Trampoline is such an amazing tool for a interrupting sonic's nuetral game, and all fruit either clank/beat spin dash. We have the advantage in the air, but are outraged on the ground.


Essentially, the matchup is sonic constantly trying to rush us down so we can't set up. Luckily, we have a myriad of tools to hinder sonic's approach. However, without a trampoline out, sonic steamrolls us due to our lack of a grab to stop him from running up and shielding.

Best stage for us would be battlefield since it makes it harder for sonic to weave around our junk and allows us to set up z drop shenanigans easily. However, sonic wrecks us on smashville


I know @PEPESPAIN @Froggy @BSP and @Sinji have a lot to say on this.
 
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Sensane

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Despite results, :4sonic: and :4myfriends: will always be 50:50 in my book. However, due to Sonic's superior frame data, I'd have to say that it may turn out to be a 55:45 in :4sonic:'s favor.
 
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Nidtendofreak

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:4myfriends:Going by high level results, its fairly clear Ike has the edge. Seagull is the only top level Sonic to knock out a top level Ike recently, and it was the one with the least amount of top level Sonic experience. The shield patch has made it even more so, as right afterwards we've had at least one mid range Ike who always badly struggle against Sonics suddenly start winning against him. Not really a gradual growth, more of... doing terrible to suddenly winning with a hit of a switch. I also think the fact that Ryo can/has forced Static Manny off of Sonic in sets says a lot as well.

We can punish spin dash, outspace Sonic without leaving anything to really punish thanks to auto-canceling aerials, spin dash itself is risking getting pivot grabbed and chucked into Ike's throw combos, Ike is killing Sonic a whole lot sooner than Sonic is killing Ike, with the shield changes Ike's aerials are even more safe against anything Sonic tries between range, shield stun/push, and low landing lag/no landing lag.

Obviously when Sonic lands a spin dash successfully he's tacking on a whole lot of damage. Its what lets him keep up in the damage race. And if Ike completely screws up a move he's eating a lot of damage there as well. Neither one I feel is gimping the other very much, Sonic probably has a slight edge in flat out gimping while Ike has the Eruption wildcard. The main problem for Sonic is that besides a solid read with Fsmash he's just killing Ike too late: Ike's going to be hanging around with absolutely massive Rage and has a kill throw to boot if somehow an aerial isn't doing it.

At a low level Sonic beats Ike because we're talking about a level where neither side is particularly great so Sonic's speed wins. Once you hit high/top level I'd say Ike has at least a 55-45 advantage... pushing 60-40 though I don't think other Ikes will agree with me on that number.
 
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