Data Sonic and the Book of Matchups

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Spoiler: Introduction & Acknowledgements

Hello everybody. Since Sega doesn't seem interested in continuing The Storybook Series, you can probably call this a parody of sorts. In this game, Sonic gets re-invited into the world of Smash! In it, he fights formidable foes from every corner of Nintendo, among other places yet ventured to! The goal is simple: take down every opponent that crosses his path! You beat the game when there is no one else standing after the dust from Sonic's wind settles. A quirky 2-D platform brawler, you'll use Sonic's speed to sweep enemies off their feet and beat the lights out of anyone that stands in his way!
I cannot, and will not be able to, do this alone. My insight to this game extends so far... and given that; upon the making of this thread, the game (at least for the Wii-U version) has only been out for a little over three months, I still have much yet to learn. I will need the wisdom and experience of those who have extensive knowledge on plenty of things but primarily these: the character opponent we will be discussing at whatever point relevant; and what Sonic players should look out for against them.

I invite anyone and everyone who feels like they will have something to contribute; as the actual objective here is to share tidbits to and for the Sonic community in the task of compiling data so that, as far as battles will be concerned, this thread can be a quick yet still detailed reference for those that need it. From the same community, those looking here can trust that information here will be fact-checked and that only the necessary information gets archived. Here on Smashboards, we are fortunate enough to be in the company of some of the most brilliant minds. To further cement quality assurance, there are plenty of those who have been playing Sonic since the days of Super Smash Bros. Brawl (when he was a statistically worse character), and those who've been around for that long were required to be creative with the Blue Blur in order to have a chance at the victory screen. I've the utmost confidence that with everybody's help, I can compile information of use for everybody.
Ultimately speaking, however, people are fallible. That is probably part of why games are winnable; because if the characters themselves were played to 100% efficiency, games would be decided at the character select screen. The professionals I mentioned before? They're not free of error. And I don't have the slightest doubt in my mind that some of the newcomers have their fair share of strategies that can be of value to anyone who will listen to their word. It might take a fresh perspective to handle a situation where a veteran mind might be plagued with habitual faults.​

Spoiler: Formatting & Disclaimers

I'd like to explain how this project is going to be handled:

There are about 58 playable characters in this game. We will be discussing a character based on a combination of four things:​

1. Community vote.​
2. Perceived relevance to the metagame.​
3. Potential threat to Sonic.​
4. My final decision.​

As shallow as it sounds, I am the one doing the majority of the work here. It's only somewhat fair that I have a little bit of more influence, no? In any case, the self-appointed influence won't go unwarranted, I'll be the one to progress discussion, record information from other people, and put it in a way that makes it look like an actual compendium rather than direct quotations.

We will be discussing two characters bi-weekly. During the discussions, a voting thread for the next two characters will be available to the Sonic fourms. In order to easily get there, scroll down this post and look for Chapters that have "???" written under them, and click their spoiler tag. The link will be in the tag. How voting goes will be mentioned in the voting page.

I will admit; if you want to go about learning a particular matchup yourself, there is no substitute for finding a worthy opponent and getting them to spar with you until you've acquired sufficient practice.

I'll be the first to say it: I'm not going to get everything right. I encourage you to contact me if you feel there is something that should be done/added; or, correct an error if there should be one to show it's ugly grin. Otherwise, I just need the community to partake in what I hope to be civilized debate.

Because passions can get heated, I expect people to put that aside temporarily and try and see the matchups in an impartial light. I may or may not invite people who play the other characters to their fullest extent, and I don't want them to come here feeling like they'll be attacked for having what might be to some a disagreeable opinion. This goes for ourselves too! Because Sonic is such a diverse character, one person might have a different spindash on the matchup, and it's all welcome and encouraged. Moreover, nobody is here to hear about how you bopped your friend who doesn't play smash competitively get trashed while playing X-character so it must be a 100% guaranteed win for Sonic. Sorry; but, for humorous content like that, we have a Social Thread.

I also would like to thank you all for your contribution, along with Kinzer starting the thread, and Camalange appointing me to continue the Book of Matchups. If it wasn't for the all of you, this thread would not be how it is today.​

CURRENT DISCUSSION

Sheik
[Click below to go to discussion!]


MATCH UP RATIOS
*Subject to change due to balance updates*​

Spoiler: ►►►►►►►►►►►►►►►►►►►►►►►Ratio Dictionary◄◄◄◄◄◄◄◄◄◄◄◄◄◄◄◄◄◄◄◄◄◄◄◄◄◄

Scores | Definition
+2 | Sonic wins the match up.
+1 | Sonic wins the match up, but by a small margin.
±0 | Even match up.
-1 | Sonic loses the match up, but by a small margin.
-2 | Sonic loses the match up.

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​

Spoiler: Which characters can Sonic utilize Spring Ride > Up Air on?

Spoiler: Which characters can Sonic Spinstool? [Link to thread in spoiler]

Spinstool Thread​

 

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Chapter 4
Rosalina & Luma
​

Spoiler: Match Up Info: -1

Spoiler: TL;DR

Get rid of Luma whenever given the chance to, in order to temporarily nerf Rosalina and gain stage control. Because Rosalina & Luma players have to focus on Rosalina, Luma, and Sonic's Location, use his mobility and mix ups to throw the player off. Avoid being above Rosalina, or inbetween her and Luma. Rosalina is light, so you can kill her earlier than other characters. Always try to punish her Up B recovery. If you have the stock or percent lead, feel free to keep away from her.

Stages to go to are Smashville & Town&City.
Ban Battlefield & Dreamland. ​

The Speed Run - Summary

Neutral/Ground Game

Rosalina's goal in the match up is to keep Luma alive, while also keeping Sonic away from her, above her, or close inbetween her and Luma. Her Uair can KO or net crazy damage, especially if Luma gets to hit you. Avoid being on a platform directly above her as well, as she can Up Smash and Up Tilt as well. All three moves work well as anti-air attacks.

If Rosalina does get you above her, and she jumps under you (in attempt to get closer for Uair), she is giving you an opportunity to get back into neutral. This is because her floaty and light nature gives her a lot of air time. What Sonic can do outside of airdodging through her is to Spin Shot above Rosalina to make good horizontal distance away from her, and since Rosalina is not on stage or directly under you, you can opt to Dair to get back on stage before her.

Rosalina can use her Jab, Luma Shot, Star Bits, Down Smash, Forward Smash, Down Tilt and Luma's Jab to stop our Spins. Spin Charge can power through Luma, but will slow us down enough for Rosalina to act. When Rosalina utilizes her jab with Luma right infront of her, Sonic should go for an aerial approach around Luma. This becomes more threatening when shes under a platform.

Her Forward Smash and Down Smash both have transcendent priority. This means that those attacks cannot collide with, clash with, cancel out, or be cancelled out by other hitboxes.

Rosalina is floaty and light. Use this to your advantage as you can knock her out at lower percentages. She also has a larger hurt-box, which makes hitting her easier.

Luma

Luma will always attack when Rosalina attacks. It can still attack if Rosalina is grabbed, stunned or sleeping. The only time Luma can't attack is when it is in the tumble animation. When you grab Rosalina, and Luma is nearby, either use Back Throw to distance yourself away from Luma or Forward Throw to Kick Luma away if its infront of you.

Luma can be separated from Rosalina, allowing them to virtually "attack in two different spots". Always be alert on where Luma is along with Rosalina. Do not be in-between the two of them. Luma is also an effective way for Rosalina to obtain stage control.

When Luma is close to Rosalina, their attacks can combo off each other, allowing them to rack up a lot of damage, while dishing out good knock back. Rosalina's normal attacks all have increased range when Luma is attacking by her side.

Sonic's main option for crippling Rosalina is to get rid of Luma. That way, her KO potential will temporarily decrease because Luma is the one who has the knockback power and added range. Sonic will also gain stage control temporarily, and will also be able to approach her more effectively.

There are three ways to get rid of Luma
Deplete it's Health by attacking it
Knock it off the stage
Knock Rosalina off the stage.

When you managed to hit Rosalina away from you, you can opt to either attack/get Luma off the stage, or chase after Rosalina.

Once Luma is gone, it will take 12 seconds to another one to spawn by Rosalina (Unless she gets knocked out). At this time, Rosalina typically tries to space out her opponents or run away from them in order to stall time.

The best way to get Luma off the stage is to use SDJ/SCJ. A Forward Tilt, Jab Combo, Bair, Forward Throw, and Down Smash, Forward Smash can also get the job done. Spring can be helpful, as it can land either on Rosalina or on Luma and give damage. However, this puts you in a bad spot vs Rosalina.

Edgeguarding/Recovery Game

Because of her floatiness and aerials with good range/hit-boxes, Rosalina can edge-guard pretty well. She can even put Luma at the ledge to guard it. She can spike with Dair. Sonic can utilize spring's invicibility to power through Dair or Luma, but for the most part, try and autosnap to the ledge. Trying to get back onto stage without use of ledge can prove unsafe if Rosalina is lingering below you.

Rosalina is the most vulnerable when using her Up B Recovery, so capitalize on punishing it, especially when trying to gimp her. Up B will shoot her very far and fast, and she will either aim toward the stage or over it. She can even drop under the stage and recover on the other side of the ledge. Pay attention to how she will recover. She can try and bait you into coming off stage if you attempt to edgeguard, but she has to recover at some point. Here, your best options is to spring for safe damage with a lingering hitbox, Bair for the horizontal kill or stage spike, or Dair as she comes for the spike.

Rosalina is one of the few characters that Sonic can Footstool Jump then Dair Spike, however it cannot be buffered, and requires proper timing to execute.

Act 1 or 2? - Stages

Smashville​

• Pros
  • Uairs are nice for us.
  • 90% - Up Throw > Up B > Up Air = kill
  • 140% - Up Throw and Forward Throw on Platform = Kill
  • Can use platform for camping.
    • In the case where Luma is rapid jabbing by ledge, Sonic can spring to the moving platform to escape.
• Cons
  • Rosalina can recover from one side to the other side.
  • Luma can Up Smash through the moving platform from underneath.
  • Rosalina & Luma can Up Tilt through the moving platform from underneath.
• Misc
  • Platform near edges can encourage platform camping can be a way to recover.
  • Lower stage ceiling. Not as low as Town & City
  • There is a balloon that comes every now and then with a hurt-box.

Town & City​

• Pros
  • Sonic can Up Smash through the horizontal moving platforms.
  • Uairs are nice.
  • Can use horizontally moving platforms to camp.
    • In the case where Luma is rapid jabbing by ledge, Sonic can spring to the moving platform to escape.

• Cons
  • Rosalina can recover from one side to the other side.
  • Luma can Up Smash through the horizontallymoving platforms from underneath.
  • Rosalina & Luma can Up Tilt through the horizontally moving platform from underneath.

• Misc
  • Lower stage ceiling.
  • Platforms can kill if you stay on them as they move out of screen.
  • There is a balloon that comes every now and then with a hurt-box.

*More Stages to be added*

Run Away! - Stage Striking

Dreamland 64 should be striked because the triangle platform layout means she can camp under them, making Jab Wall stronger than ever. She can also cover landing easier with platforms. She kills easier vertically on this stage. Low ceiling also helps her kill with Uair easier. Battlefield has the same weaknesses, except with a higher ceiling and the triangle platform arrangement is more condensed.

Discussion

http://smashboards.com/threads/soni...s-ch-5-diddy-kong.390575/page-2#post-18721410

Concept Matches

For more videos to reference this match up, go over to the Sonic Video Archive!
http://smashboards.com/threads/sonic-video-archive.373484/​

Chapter 6
Pikachu
​

Spoiler: Match Up Info: ±0

Spoiler: TL;DR

Sonic should play a reactive style. Pikachu can get a lot of damage off from one hit in neutral, but lacks reliable kill potential, more than Sonic, who can take advantage of his low weight for earlier kills. At mid to high percents, expect Pikachu's goal in the game to be changing the stance of the game from neutral to an edgeguard situation. At higher percents, always expect Up Throw from Pikachu, so DI away. Shielding Quick Attack is one of the best ways to deal with it, and based on Pikachu's spacing on the move, Sonic can easily punish it during its animation or during its end lag. Sonic can contest it with well timed Nair, Bair, Fair, Forward Tilt, sometimes Spins, and his Smash Attacks. When shielding Dair, do so until either you're sure they won't fastfall it and get the "stomp" hitbox or after the "stomp" hitbox. Thunder Jolt is easy to powershield. Properly timed Spin Dashes/Charges go right under it as well. Sonic can do the footstool Dair combo on Pikachu effectively to potentially end a stock early.

Edgeguarding either character can prove quite the task, but Sonic can contest Quick Attack and Skull Bash with Forward/Down Smash and Bair. Take advantage of Spring's invincibiity when making a vertical recovery agianst Pikachu's Bair in order to turn the state of the game to your favor.

Platforms benefit Pikachu a lot, in the case that it's user likes to lag cancel his quick attack.
Go to Final Destination or Smashville.
Avoid Battlefield, Dreamland 64, and Lylat Cruise.​

The Speed Run - Summary

Neutral/Ground Game

At lower percents, Pikachu will try to set up combos in order to rack damage. At mid-high percents, Pikachu's goal is to convert the stance of the game from neutral to offstage advantage, where he excels most. One hit is all it takes in order for Pikachu to start a combo, and/or send Sonic back to that position or above him. A SHFF Fair works wonders when stopping an approaching Sonic with Spin Dash, and so does Forward Smash, which is generally safe on shield and very low in terms of end lag for a smash attack. Thunder Jolt forces approach if Sonic is in the losing side, and just slows him down, something Pikachu wants when in the game advantage. It also clanks with Spin Dash. Pikachu's Dair also forces Sonic to shield, and we have to be weary of if Pikachu lands with the landing hitbox or autocancels for something. Nair is there for the frame race, since it comes out fast. Quick Attack is also there for approaches, get away, movement, recovery, etc.

Although Pikachu sounds amazing, because he is, that doesn't make it so bad for Sonic. Sonic should play reactive because of Pikachu's fast, mostly multi-hit moves with little lag. Although Pikachu can weave in and out and appear safe, he is still suspectible for punish by Sonic. Spin Dash/Charge beats Quick Attack sometimes, and thats amazing for the damage race. Quick Attack is also interceptable from Bair, Smash Attacks, Forward Tilt, Nair, and Fair. Granted, if you want to be safe regardless, shield Quick Attack. Throwing out hitboxes agianst a Quick Attacking Pikachu is good if timed right and especially if its a lingering hit box. If you get hit though, Pikachu can confirm more if he ends QA close enough or you don't react in time.

Pikachu is suceptible to the footstool combo as well, and if we have the lead, when Thunder Jolt means nothing to us. We can make it very hard for Pikachu to get kills, something he struggles with as well, and unlike other match ups, hes light, allowing Sonic to get earlier kills.

Pikachu usually sets Thunder up with up throw, so when grabbed, DI instantly to the left or right, and prepare to air dodge if Pikachu tries to follow you for it. Once at much higher percents, Up Throw will send Sonic to high for this set up to work.

Edeguarding/Recovery Game

Pikachu's edgeguard potential is alarming, but Sonic can get past it easily. Take advantage of Spring's invincibiity when making a vertical recovery agianst Pikachu's Bair in order to turn the state of the game to your favor. In the case that you get hit by that or by Dair, prepare for a possible tech situation. Pikachu could get free damage similar to our Spring with Thunder Jolt if we recover low, something that's very inevitable on Duck Hunt. Pikachu can also make a wall via Thunder to answer horizontal recoveries, yet we can easily air dodge through them. Quick Attack Ledge Canceling Pikachus can slide off the stage and throw out surprise aerials.

When Sonic's edgeguarding, he can contest Quick Attack and Skull Bash ledge recoveries with Forward/Down Smash and Bair. Spring can also give easy damage and an obstacle for Pikachu to manuver around, and could Dair agianst low recoveries for damage and the potential spike. Both these options do forfeit stage control, something Sonic should keep when available. Doing so can potentially put him in bad spots for Pikachu to take advantage of.​

Pikachu is one of the few characters that Sonic can Footstool Jump then immediately Dair Spike.

Act 1 or 2? - Stages

Final Destination​

• Pros
  • No Platforms = Less QAC Shenanigans
  • Sonic can recover from one side of the stage to the other.
• Cons
  • Pikachu can still QALC
  • Thunder Jolt can be a nuisance because of the stage having no Platform.
  • Pikachu can recover from one side of the stage to the other.
• Misc
  • Blinding Light in the background and screw players up.

*More Stages to be added*

Run Away! - Stage Striking

Ban Battlefield, Dreamland, and Lylat Cruise, in the case that Pikachu utilizes Quick Attack Ledge Canceling (QALC for short) . QALC allows Pikachu to end his Quick Attack animation instantly with no end lag, allowing him to follow up with almost anything. No matter what stage, Pikachu can still use QALC, but we can try to minimize the amount of places he can use it. Pikachu also has Quick Attack Cancels (QAC for short), which only work on slopes and on platforms.

Discussion​

http://smashboards.com/threads/soni...chapter-6-pikachu.390575/page-5#post-19294355​

Concept Matches

For more videos to reference this match up, go over to the Sonic Video Archive!
http://smashboards.com/threads/sonic-video-archive.373484/​

Chapter 7
Captain Falcon
​

Spoiler: Match Up Info: ±0

Spoiler: TL;DR

Momentum and stage control is big in this match up. More space for either player allows for more effective movement pressure. Sonic's Fair is very effective in this match up, as Falcon is a tall character in neutral and confiriming it offstage can mean his stock. Falcon's neutral is as strong as ours, but he wants to go for more grabs. Whiffed grabbed/dash attacks with Sonic infront of him usually leads to a jab to cancel whatever Sonic is atempting to do, along with the occasional defensive mechanics. Springs can gimp him, or at the very least, rack free and safe damage. Falcon is suspectible to being combo food, but he can also do the same, and kill earlier. Also, mis-spaced short hop aerials from Falcon in neutral is an easy way for Sonic to get Spin Dash combos. Also, I think its much safer to recover low, despite what Falcon is known for. Spring has some invincibility and with the right direction & distance, we can snap to ledge. A high recovery is suspectible to Uair or a Side B punish on landing.

Go to Duck Hunt and Final Destination
Strike Battlefield and Town & City​

The Speed Run - Summary

Captain Falcon is a fast and combo-heavy character. He is also somewhat of a heavy character, meaning he won't die as early as lighter characters would. He also has amazing arieal mobility.

Captain Falcon is typically played rushdown (agreesive). In the neutral, he will approach with a grab, SH Nairs (which can autocancel), or Dash Attack. He can also pull out Side B and Down B, so make sure you are ready to shield if need be.

He can easily stop Sonic's SD/SC with Jab.

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Kill Moves

Foward Smash (Can Send Sonic the opposite direction if hit in close combat, can also be angled)
Down Smash (2nd Kick Kills earlier than 1st Kick)
Up Smash (If you get hit by the 2nd Kick)
Sweetspot Fair
Dair Spike
Uair
Sweetspot Bair
Side B (Perfect Shield and Punish!)
Sweetspot Down B (Shield and Punish!)
Neutral B (Grab before he actually punches or roll behind him and Punish!)
Up B (As a edgeguarding move that stage spikes)
Up Tilt (As an edgeguarding move that spikes)
Back Throw
Down Tilt

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Captain Falcon's main weakness is his recovery. He has Side B as a horizontal Recovery Tool along with his Up B for his Vertical Recovery, both of which can be stopped with Sonic's Spring. If you do go off stage after him, make him use up his second jump, and give him a good fair, which can be just enough to gimp the guy. If he is inbetween you and the stage when he does Up B, go for the bair for the potential stage spike. If you get caught by the Up B, Captain Falcon will be able to use it again. Also, be ready to tech depending on where you are if this scenario occurs.

If Falcon is the one edgeguarding, he will most likely go for the Dair Spike, or Up Tilt Spike. Down Tilt can also be used by the ledge along with a Downward angled Forward Smash to edgeguard. Captain Falcon can also drop down the stage and go for a Sweetspot Fair, Bair (For the Stage Spike), Dair, or Up B. Air dodging then springing will bring you to the ledge, and potentially gimp Falcon with the spring. You can also go for the footstool. Just make sure to fast fall or get back on stage before Captain Falcon does. You don't want to be above him much.

Captain Falcon's dash grab is quite possibly the best in the game. His dash grab causes him to slide a lot. If at the ledge, this sliding momentum can force the grab to cancel and help set up a Dair from Falcon. He could also grab you at the ledge, pummel until you are released, and go for the spike. As mentioned above, air dodge if it happens, go for the spring for potential gimp. If you happen to be shielding, espicially above him, he can also opt to use Up B's command grab as a mix up.

As for combos, Falcon is mostly seen using down throw followed by his Uair, Nair, or Fair (If they predict the instant air dodge from Sonic after the Down Throw's hitstun ends). Uairs can be followed by Uairs and Up B. A Sourspot Fair can be followed up with Uair. At specific percents, a Dair into Sweetspot Fair is possible. Always DI away from Falcon, and air dodge if need be. At Low Percent, Falcon can Foward Throw into Dash Attack. There are a lot more, but these are the most common.

Act 1 or 2? - Stages

Final Destination​

• Pros
  • No Platforms = Emphasizes ground game more and de-emphasizes Captain Falcon's air game.
  • Sonic can recover from one side of the stage to the other.
• Cons
  • Due to stage's layout and Captain Falcon's mobility, Sonic will have a harder time landing safely.
• Misc
  • Blinding Light in the background and screw players up.

Duck Hunt​

• Pros
  • Stage's layout emphasizes more ground game, and the platform layout (particulary the tree) allows Sonic to land more safely.
• Cons
  • Stage's Walls render stage spiking useless.
  • Platform (Bush) could allow Captain Falcon to have an easier time punishing get ups from the ledge due to Falling Uair.
• Misc
  • Every now and then part of the stage gets covered in grass. You can do running up Smash as a surprise or something from there lol
  • Duck Hunt Dog will appear every now and then regardless of whether anyone hit a duck or not. He is a platform, which can cancel grabs. You can somewhat manipulate where he comes from by hitting the ducks.

*More Stages to be added*

Run Away! - Stage Striking

Battlefield - Platforms support's Captain Falcon's air game and de-emphasizes Sonic's ground game.
Town & City - Platforms support Captain Falcon's air game and de-emphasizes Sonic's ground game.

Discussion

http://smashboards.com/threads/soni...chapter-6-pikachu.390575/page-6#post-19356296

Concept Matches

For more videos to reference this match up, go over to the Sonic Video Archive!
http://smashboards.com/threads/sonic-video-archive.373484/​

Chapter 9
Yoshi
​

Spoiler: Match Up Info: ±0

Spoiler: TL;DR

Stick to the ground and be patient. Don't spring below Yoshi unless you can true combo him. Yoshi beats Sonic in the air. Footstool/Fair Yoshi, espicially after his Mid-Air Jump. Don't overcommit and punish him when he whiffs attacks.

Go to Duck Hunt or Final Destination.
Avoid Lylat Cruise.​

The Speed Run - Summary

Yoshi is a powerhouse with strong utility and combos. He is much faster in this iteration compared to others and he is a heavy weight character.

Yoshi is able to stop our Spin Dash with Nair, Jab, Egg Lay (Neutral B), and Grab. He can also stop it with his Egg Toss (Up B).

In the skies, Yoshi outright beats Sonic. He has spectacular areial mobility, a super armor'ed mid-air jump, along with fast and powerful arieals and specials that can quickly rack up damage. He even has great anti-air by the means of Up Smash, Egg Toss, and Up Air. If you are ever sent into the air, get to the ground as fast and safe as possible. Yoshi will try to throw his eggs, and if you aren't careful, it can lead to him frame trapping you. If Yoshi sends you off stage, you can bait out any incoming Nair/Fair/Dair/Bair before getting back on stage. Yoshi can also edge guard with his Eggs.

The ground game is fun. Yoshi approaches with Falling Dair/Fair/Nair, Dash Attack, Egg Toss, Egg Lay (Although it's usually used with Wave Bouncing), and Grab. Try to meet half way, powershield any incoming Eggs and punish any thrown out arieals, as Yoshi players do this a lot. Patience is a virtue in this match up. The same goes with conditioning and mixing up.

Do not over commit when going agianst Yoshi. Espicially do not spring toward Yoshi past 70%, unless you want to risk losing a stock to a Yoshi Bomb (Down B).

Yoshi also has Egg Roll (Side B), however its rarely used as it has low priority and its not as good and fast as Spin Dash.. LOL

Yoshi is one of the few characters that Sonic can Footstool Jump then Dair Spike, however it cannot be buffered, and requires proper timing to execute.

The Matchup agianst Yoshi is not actually hard. The key is patience and not over committing. Play defensive in the neutral, and punish when Yoshi throws out his attacks.

Act 1 or 2? - Stages

Duck Hunt​

• Pros
  • Stage's layout emphasizes more ground game, and the platform layout (particulary the tree) allows Sonic to land more safely.
  • Ducks get in the way of Egg Toss.
• Cons
  • Stage's Walls render stage spiking useless.
  • Yoshi can Up Smash Through the Bush on the left side.
• Misc
  • Every now and then part of the stage gets covered in grass. You can do running up Smash as a surprise or something from there lol
  • Duck Hunt Dog will appear every now and then regardless of whether anyone hit a duck or not. He is a platform, which can cancel grabs. You can somewhat manipulate where he comes from by hitting the ducks.

Final Destination​

• Pros
  • No Platforms = Emphasizes ground game more.
  • Sonic can recover from one side of the stage to the other.
• Cons
  • Sonic will have a harder time landing safely due to stage layout. Benefits Yoshi's anti-air
  • No Platforms/Hazards = Eggs everywhere, and nothing getting in the way of the Yoshi Bomb
• Misc
  • Blinding Light in the background and screw players up.

*More Stages to be added*

Run Away! - Stage Striking

Lylat Cruise - Yoshi can Up Smash through all three platforms, Egg Toss throw said platforms. Angle by ledges allows for a better Down Smash EdgeGuard.

Discussion

http://smashboards.com/threads/soni...ups-chapter-8-fox.390575/page-7#post-19482749

Concept Matches

For more videos to reference this match up, go over to the Sonic Video Archive!
http://smashboards.com/threads/sonic-video-archive.373484/​

Chapter 10
Zero Suit Samus
​

Spoiler: Match Up Info: -1

Spoiler: TL;DR

She can easily wall us out, or be aggressive, so finding the time to stirke is good. Stick close to ZSS and powershield her tilts & aerials. Spot dodging, rolling towards her, or short hopping over her tether will allow you to get good time to punish. Powershielding & short hop air dodging her Down B will allow room for punish. ZSS wants to keep Sonic above her, where she makes the most damage. She will rely on her huge commitful tether grab to set up for this scenario. Mix Up your recoveries and becareful trying to gimp ZSS. Making good reads offstage agianst her can lead to very early edgeguards.

Go to Smashville, Duck Hunt, or Final Destination.
Do not go to Battlefield, Dreamland 64, or Town & City.​

The Speed Run - Summary

Zero Suit Samus is a fast character with great aerial mobility. She has good range in her moveset but also has decent end lag.

Zero Suit Samus can easily wall Sonic out and put him in the air and keep him there. She has great range and knockback from Uair and has anti-air via Up Smash to keep the Blue Blur from running again.

Neutral Game

Throwing out Spin Dash/Charge without much thought will get you in a lot of trouble in this Matchup. ZSS has a tether grab, which will always beat this approach. Not only that, rolling away from ZSS is not reconmended because it can give her the free grab if she reads it. If you do get grabbed, expect the Down Throw followed by Up Airs or Up B. The only problem about her grab is that it has a good amount of endlag, allowing you to punish her easily if she whiffs it. Sonic can easily get a punish if he rolls toward or spot dodges to dodge ZSS's grab attempt. Spin Dash Shield Canceling into a Spot Dodge is pretty great here.

Paraylzer can also clash with your Spins and paralyze you, giving her the free punish. Perfect Shield it. She can even stop Spin Dash/Charge with her Zair, Side B, Down B, and Down Smash.

Agianst her Nair, a regular shield will allow her to safely pressure your shield. However, agianst powershields, you are able to punish her with Jab, Forward Tilt, or Grab is shes in range. The same applies to Zair & Bair, which all will be used in neutral. If you predict her Nair, you can try to SH Nair/Fair/Uair or do running Up Smash before she throws it out.

Dealing with Boost Kick

The best way to deal with Boost Kick is by preventing it in general. However, in the case that you did get struck by it, this is what you can do: If you're any further from the middle of the stage, always DI straight down. As you get closer to the ledge, DI Downwards, but closer to her general vincinity, Always avoid being carried over the stage from her chain of Up Airs if you know Boost Kick is coming after. On stages with platforms, you can opt to DI onto them & tech roll, allowing yourself to escape.

When caught in the Boost Kick very close, if you notice ZSS moving forward, SDI through her to avoid getting hit by the last hitbox. If she is moving backwards when you do this, she'll hit you with the hitbox. However, if she hits you with Boost Kick from afar and doesn't move herself forward., SDI out to avoid the last hit.

When ZSS is at high rage, SDI away to knock yourself out of Boost Kick before the last hit.

If you manage to get out of Boost Kick before the final hit, you can race down to the ground and punish Zero Suit Samus as she will be in helpless falling.

In the off chance that you want to see a visual for everything mentioned above about Boost Kick, watch this video.

Thanks to Trifroze for the video!

Off Stage Game

Gimping Zero Suit Samus can be hard as Sonic because of her amazing recovery and aerial mobility. If she wanted, she can even go under some stages and recover from the other side. However, this does not mean we should over respect any of her recovery tools. If ZSS tethers to the ledge, Sonic can opt for the Spring Gimp but its never garunteed, Dropping down to Fair also works, but requires precise timing. Going offstage can render Sonic suspectible to Down B's spike, and air dodging it allows ZSS to bounce off Sonic with lots of lag.

Zero Suit Samus can also give Sonic a hard time recovering because of her Paraylzer, Down Smash by the Ledge, Ledge Trump Bair, and Down B spike. If she manages to get the footstool offstage, she could sacrifice her stock for a Dair spike.

Act 1 or 2? - Stages

Smashville​

• Pros
  • Uairs are nice for us.
  • 90% - Up Throw > Up B > Up Air = kill
  • 150% - Up Throw and Forward Throw on Platform = Kill
  • Can use platform for camping.
• Cons
  • Platforms = Helps ZSS's Air Game
    • If the platform is past ledge, ZSS can Uair > Up B away from stage to ensure a kill with less risk of death.
  • ZSS can Up Smash through the platform.
  • ZSS can go under Smashville from the other side.
• Misc
  • Platform near edges can encourage platform camping.
  • Lower stage ceiling. Not as low as Town & City
  • There is a balloon that comes every now and then with a hurtbox.

Duck Hunt​

• Pros
  • Stage's layout emphasizes more ground game, and the platform layout (particulary the tree) allows Sonic to land more safely.
  • Ducks get in the way of Paralyzer Shots, espicially if ZSS uses them in the air.
  • Ducks can take the down B hit, forcing ZSS into lag during her bounce.
  • Flat wall on Ledge makes hitting ZSS's tether recovery with Spring more easier.
• Cons
  • Stage's Walls render stage spiking useless.
  • ZSS can Up Smash through the Dog and the Bush on the left side.
• Misc
  • Every now and then part of the stage gets covered in grass. You can do running up Smash as a surprise or something from there lol
  • Duck Hunt Dog will appear every now and then regardless of whether anyone hit a duck or not. He is a platform, which can cancel grabs. You can somewhat manipulate where he comes from by hitting the ducks.

Final Destination​

• Pros
  • No Platforms = Emphasizes ground game more.
  • Sonic can recover from one side of the stage to the other.
• Cons
  • Sonic will have a harder time landing safely due to stage layout. Benefits ZSS's anti-air
  • Nothing gets in the way of ZSS's Dair when she uses it to get down to the stage.
  • ZSS can go under Final Destination from the other side.
• Misc
  • Blinding Light in the background and screw players up.

*More Stages to be added*​

Run Away! - Stage Striking

BattleField - Platform arrangement supports ZSS Air Game a lot. ZSS can Up Smash through the side platforms. ZSS can recover to the other side. She has Wave Boucing potential as well because of the platforms.
Dreamland 64 - Platform arrangement supports ZSS Air Game a lot. ZSS can Up Smash through the side platforms. Lower stage Ceiling makes deaths from above happen faster. She has Wave Boucing potential as well because of the platforms. Good thing about this stage is that ZSS can get stuck under the stage when recovering.
Town & City - Platform arrangement supports ZSS Air Game a lot. ZSS can Up Smash through the platform. Stage ceiling is also VERY Low. She has Wave Boucing potential as well because of the platforms.​

Discussion

http://smashboards.com/threads/soni...1-zero-suit-samus.390575/page-7#post-19548773

Concept Matches

For more videos to reference this match up, go over to the Sonic Video Archive!
http://smashboards.com/threads/sonic-video-archive.373484/​

Chapter 11
Villager
​

Spoiler: Match Up Info: ±0

Spoiler: TL;DR

Villager likes controlling the stage. Stay around max slingshot range. His Lloid Rocket has bad starting lag, and becomes an active hit box when it starts moving. You can punish this start up with Dash Attack or a Pivot Grab. Punish his whiffed grabs as they have big start up and end lag. Perfect Shield or maneuver around when dealing with his projectiles. Watch out for sprouting and falling trees. You can wait for the tree to despawn if he is near it. Be careful when recovering from below the stage. He loses to shield, which is great to know when you have the lead.​

Go to Final Destination and Duck Hunt.
Avoid Lylat Cruise and Battlefield.​

The Speed Run - Summary

Villager is an unorthodox character with a versatile move set. Some of his normal attacks are projectiles, while others are disjointed. He has a short hit box, and is a middleweight character with low mobility. He is played very defensively.

His kill moves include his Forward Smash, Up Smash, Bair/Fair (in short distance), Uair (Three Turnips), Dair (Three Turnips), Lloid Rocket (If Villager is riding it), Axe, Erupting Tree, Falling Tree, Up Tilt, Down Tilt, and Back Throw.

Ground/Neutral Game

Villager possesses a strong camping and zoning game. His forward and backward aerials are long-ranged slingshot attacks which, in combination with Lloid Rocket, are great for harrassing opponents from a distance. Sonic wants toplay a bait & punish style, and stay around the maximum range of sling shot when looking for a time to punish.

Villager likes to condition his opponents to either jump over or shield his projectiles and then punish what he's conditioned you to do. It's important to keep mixing up your response. There is exploitable landing lag on his Slingshot if he does it too close to the ground. Your shield is a little safer agianst Villager than other characters as he's got a very bad grab. His grab has range, but has bad start up and end lag, and has more risk than reward. Perfect Shielding in this match up is a blessing. He does have a kill throw, so don't get Back thrown from the edge of the stage at high percents.

Villager can also approach with Lloid Rocket infront of him. If you attempt to shield it, he can go for the grab, and if you jump, he could jump Fair. Up close, he likes to Nair, Bair, Fair, Forward Tilt, or Jab. Lloid Rocket has atrocious start-up lag and Sonic should be able to get in with a dash attack or Pivot grab before Villager sends it off, if you are close. The Lloid Rocket itself becomes a hitbox as soon as it starts moving.

As always, limit Villager's zoning game by keeping him above you. Juggling him is hard, as his Dair has a disjointed hitbox, and Nair is a combo breaker. At higher percents, its best not to follow after him with Spring unless you can true combo him. His Dair can get you killed up there.

If the Tree is on stage, Villager will use it as a wall of Defense. Homing Attack is worse in this Match Up because the tree itself has a hurtbox. Luckily, setting up the tree takes time, which you can use to approach Villager and rush him down. Pay attention to the condition of the tree. It takes two cuts on either side of the tree for it to timber. If Villager is near it and at least one side of the tree is already axe'd, you can opt to stay back and wait for the tree to despawn. Sometimes the tree will spawn a piece of wood when its cut down.

Villager is one of the few characters that Sonic can Footstool Jump then immediately Dair Spike.

Off Stage With Villager

Villager also possesses a strong edgeguarding game. He has Dash Attack, Lloid Rocket, Bair, Fair, Forward Smash (Bowling Ball), and Falling Trees. Villager can also Spike with his Dair, assuming he pulls out three Turnips. Becareful trying to recovery from below the stage. Sweet Spot the ledge. Villager can easily get the One Frame Ledge Punish using his Tree and Bowling Ball. If you plan to Spring, time it to where the invincibility frames go throw said projectiles. Villager can also drop off stage and Nair.

In terms of recovery, Villager is amazing. His best recovery tool is his Balloon Trip, which is hard to gimp, especially if the Villager player is able to make evasive maneuvers with it. Spring will not stop the trip, unless there is only one Balloon when the Spring hits it. Villager can use Lloid Rocket as a horizontal recovery tool, but is generally unsafe and will be used sparingly. You can throw an aerial at Villager when he does this, but if you get hit by the Lloid Rocket, it will do more damage and knockback. Villager can also wall jump..

Act 1 or 2? - Stages

Duck Hunt​

• Pros
  • Stage's layout emphasizes more ground game, and the platform layout (particulary the tree) allows Sonic to land more safely.
  • Ducks get in the way of Villager's projectiles, especially if used in the air.
• Cons
  • Stage's Walls render stage spiking useless.
  • Stage's Walls make low recoveries more unsafe because of Bowling ball and Falling Trees.
  • Villager can throw trees and bowling balls from the higher platforms.
  • Villager's Tree can cover the Dog & Tree platform, hence covering some space.
• Misc
  • Every now and then part of the stage gets covered in grass. You can do running up Smash as a surprise or something from there lol
  • Duck Hunt Dog will appear every now and then regardless of whether anyone hit a duck or not. He is a platform, which can cancel grabs. You can somewhat manipulate where he comes from by hitting the ducks.

Final Destination​

• Pros
  • No Platforms = Emphasizes ground game more.
  • No Platforms = Villager can't rely on platforms to escape.
  • Sonic can recover from one side of the stage to the other.
• Cons
  • Sonic will have a harder time landing safely due to stage layout.
  • Villager can go under Final Destination from the other side.
• Misc
  • Blinding Light in the background and screw players up.

*More Stages to be added*​

Run Away! - Stage Striking

The platform layout in Lylat Cruise gives Sonic less room to maneuver while it benefits Villager's Falling Tree and Bowling Ball Game. The Tree also clips through the platforms, allowing Villager to control a bit more space. Battlefield also shares this trait, however it's not as prevalent.

Discussion

http://smashboards.com/threads/soni...0-zero-suit-samus.390575/page-7#post-19620857

Concept Matches

For more videos to reference this match up, go over to the Sonic Video Archive!
http://smashboards.com/threads/sonic-video-archive.373484/​

Chapter 12
Peach
​

Spoiler: Match Up Info: ±0

Spoiler: TL;DR

Peach has a lot of mix ups and is good at pressuring Sonic up close. Her goal is to slow Sonic down and keep him off the ground. If she is pulling out a turnip, shes going to try and force Sonic out of an approach or force him into shield, allowing for a safe offensive approach. Put her high in the air so she can't pick up turnips and can't pressure as much. She can easily be camped out becasue she is slow and floaty, so do that if you have the percent/stock lead.
​

The Speed Run - Summary

Peach is a character who relies on pressuring her opponents by mixing up her attacks with her Float ability. Peach is a medium sized character who is floaty and light.

Peach in this MU will try to stick to the ground as much as possible while maintaing pressure with her aerials. She wants to bring us to her speed, and keep us in the air.

Her kill moves include Fair, Nair, Bair, Uair, Foward Smash, Up Smash, Back Throw, and Parasol. She kills more horizontally than vertically.

Peach on the Ground

She also has A LOT of combos that start from Down Tilt, Floated Dair, Floated Nair, Turnips, Down Throw, and Up Throw. Unfortunately, a lot of her grounded moves have short reach and her mobility isn't as good either, making it very easy to camp her out. If you are in the percent/stock lead, you can opt to make her approach you, or go to time.

She can easily stop our Spin Dash/Charge approach with Jabs, Toad, Turnips, and her Floating Aerials, particulary Dair, Nair, and Fair. Peach Bomber also stops Spin Dash, but not Spin Charge. Most Peaches will opt for the Short Hop Floated Dair if you opt to rush her down with your Spins from a distance. You could bait out her Floated Dair then attack her from the side. Dair is 39 frames long, so that is enough time for you to punish her with a Spin Shotted Fair/Nair or ISDJ.

If you stick close to Peach, she will not be able to take out her Turnips without the risk of punishment. She also can't get Turnips out if she is in the air. If you manage to get Peach away from the ground game, her pressure game becomes very weak.

If Peach does get a Turnip out, she can use it to stop our Spins, extend a combo (Peach has a lot of combos), or pressure us as she approaches.

Peach can Parosol out of Shield.

Peach is one of the few characters that Sonic can Footstool Jump then Dair Spike, however it cannot be buffered, and requires proper timing to execute.

Offstage with Peach

She has a good amount of tools for recovering. Second Jump, Floating, Peach Bomber, and Parasol. Being a floaty and light character also helps her out. She can easily bait out our spring gimp to get back on stage, and if you try to spike and miss, you will be at a bad spot.

Peach has good edgeguarding because of her Float and aerials. She can float by the ledge and Dair if you decide to spring to the ledge from below. She can drop Turnips off stage. She could drop down and Parosal toward the stage. She can even ledge trump into her fast Bair. She can Forward Smash infront of the ledge. The knockback, damage, and range is based on what object she uses in the forward smash.

Act 1 or 2? - Stages

Lylat Cruise​

• Pros
  • Sonic can Up Smash through some platforms.
  • The Ledge tilt can make it harder for Peach to properly float and recover.
• Cons
  • Platforms allow Peach to extend combos even more.
  • Peach kills more horizontally than vertically, which this stage has smaller horizontal blast zones.
• Misc
  • Stage tilting can cancel out grabs.
  • Horizontal blast zones are small by the ledge.

*More Stages to be added*

Discussion

http://smashboards.com/threads/soni...apter-11-villager.390575/page-7#post-19711379

Concept Matches

For more videos to reference this match up, go over to the Sonic Video Archive!
http://smashboards.com/threads/sonic-video-archive.373484/​

Chapter 15
Mega Man
​

Spoiler: Match Up Info: -1

Spoiler: TL;DR

Mega Man can make it extremely hard for Sonic to go in and rack damage because of his projectiles, so always be on the move and make mix ups in order to get past his defense. Power Shields and Shield Cancels are vital in this match up. It's best to have Mega Man above Sonic, as he can be juggled quite easily. The reverse also applies here. If Sonic gets hit by Up Air, do not Spring or Jump or else you can kill yourself. Whoever has the stock lead can easily stall the other for the rest of the match.​

The Speed Run - Summary

Mega Man is a short heavyweight character who relies on zoning to pressure his opponents.

Kill moves include Smash Attacks, Up Air (Windbox), Bair, Dair Spike, and Up Tilt.

Ground/Neutral Game

Megaman will try to keep Sonic away from him using his various projectiles. Pellets are Mega Man's most used projectile, and are his Jab, Forward Tilt, and Nair. He can only shoot 3 pellets at a time. If Megaman shoots pellets in the air, they give more knockback compared to the ground. These pellets can aid Megaman greatly if he manages to get a jab lock going. Sonic can kite the Pellets then come in as soon as the last one is gone for a punish. Sonic can maneuver himself around Mega Man while he is jabbing to punish from behind. Metal Blade is Megaman's next projectile. Metal Blade can be thrown in 8 different directions and is a multi-hit move with decent hitstun. It is considered an item, allowing Megaman to Glide Toss it, allowing for effective approach. Sonic can also catch Metal blade and use it agianst Mega Man. Crash Bomber is pretty much a goey bomb. If Sonic gets struck by one, he only has about 2 seconds until the bomb explodes, which is enough for him to stick it back to Mega Man. Homing Attack always sticks the Crash Bomber back to Mega Man. Leaf Shield will be used as an approaching tool by Mega Man. Sonic can stall until the move goes away, but Megaman can also shoot it in front of him if need be. Megaman cannot use his other attacks during Leaf Shield, but can pick up grab, pick up items, toss them and Z-Drop them. Uair is used if Sonic is above MegaMan, and if he does do this, DON'T JUMP OR SPRING. Forward Smash will be used every now and then with these projectiles as a mix up that kills. When dealing with these projectiles, do know that they all are linear in nature, and that they can be power shielded. Sonic can also easily get around these projectiles.

Outside of projectiles, Megaman racks damage with his Fair and can kill with his Bair. Dash Attack lasts forever and is easily punishable. Down Tilt comes out quick, and can be used agianst Sonic effectively if he techs a Down Throw. Mega Man will almost never use Dair, as it has long start up and end lag, and the hit box is bad. Up Smash will always punish Sonic's Dair if used unsafely. Spin Dash Hop can also set you into the hitbox for Up Smash, so becareful. Up Tilt has invicibility frames so becareful if you're at kill percent and close to Mega Man.

If Mega Man grabs you, expect the Up Throw, Down Throw, and Back Throw. Mega Man will always follow up Up throw with Up Air, unless Sonic is at low percent, where Up Smash works. Down Throw also links with Up Smash, but is normally associated with linking into Fair and Bair.

Both characters are able to effectively juggle each other, however Mega Man has a much easier time landing because of his Metal Blade when z-dropped or thrown downwards.

While Sonic may win the neutral, he resets to it a lot, and Mega Man just wins the neutral game a lot more. His moveset restricts Sonic's by a large margin. Sonic is able to rack up damage quickly and effectively, but getting the kill on Mega Man is hard because of how he can easily keep us out of close range combat.

Recovery/Edgeguard Game

Recovery-wise, Mega Man copied our spring in the sense of Rush, but with few differences. Mega Man can jump and use his attacks after using his Up B. Rush's trampoline hitbox also remains active in the air, which Sonic can also take advantage of when recovering. Rush has invincibility on start up, just like our Spring.

In terms of edgeguarding, Mega Man and throw or Z-Drop Metal Blade at us. Pellets, Bair and Fair also keep us from getting back. Mega Man can go offstage with Leaf Shield, however he will have to use his jump to recover, unless Leaf Shield goes away. Mega Man can use Crash Bomber on the ledge, protecting it with explosions. He can Dair, but that is easy to react and dodge. A charged Forward Smash covers the ledge.

Sonic can easily Dair Spike/Bair Stage Spike/Spring Mega Man if he Rush(es) to the ledge. Fair can also get the job done pretty easy agianst Mega Man, as Rush doesn't send him up as far as Spring does, and Mega Man is heavy.

Act 1 or 2? - Stages

Mega Man players will play a lot more defensive or aggressive based on the stage chosen. Platforms enourage a more aggresive playstyle while flat stages encourage a more defensive playstyle.

Battlefield​

• Pros
  • Platforms = Ways to get around projectiles
• Cons
  • Mega Man can Up Smash through the lower platforms.
  • Platform Pressure from Mega Man
• Misc
  • Sonic can drop below the stage and recover on the other side.

Dreamland 64​

• Pros
  • Platforms = Ways to get around projectiles
• Cons
  • Platform Pressure from Mega Man
• Misc
  • Wispy Woods (The Tree) starts to blow to the left or right every 20 seconds for 10 seconds. It will blow in the direction with more players, and will randomly choose if both directions have the same number of players.
  • Lower Stage Ceiling compared to Battlefield.
  • Platforms are higher compared to Battlefield.

Final Destination​

• Pros
  • No Platforms = Emphasizes ground game more.
  • Sonic can recover from one side of the stage to the other.
• Cons
  • Sonic will have a harder time landing safely due to stage layout.
  • Mega Man has much more freedom with his projectiles.
• Misc
  • Blinding Light in the background and screw players up.

Lylat Cruise​

• Pros
  • Sonic can Up Smash through some platforms.
  • Platforms + Tilt = Projectiles are less effective.
• Cons
  • Mega Man can Up Smash and Up Tilt through the 3 platforms on the stage.
• Misc
  • Stage tilting can cancel out grabs.
  • Horizontal blast zones are small by the ledge.

*More Stages to be added*

Discussion

http://smashboards.com/threads/soni...15-zelda-mega-man.390575/page-8#post-19924967

Concept Matches

For videos to reference this match up, go over to the Sonic Video Archive!
http://smashboards.com/threads/sonic-video-archive.373484/​

Chapter 18
Lucario
​

Spoiler: Match Up Info: ±0

Spoiler: TL;DR

A high-percent Lucario is always scary for Sonic because of Rage, Aura, and Sonic's Lack of KO power. It is key to gain the lead stock, and force Lucario to approach rather than have Sonic approach. Sending Lucario offstage is good, espicially when a stage that hinders his recovery is chosen. Most of Lucario's best kill/combo punishes come through setups, so keep the pressure up. You can also opt to play very safe, and stall time when things are getting way too heated.

Stage-wise, choose Battlefield or Lylat Cruise.
Avoid Duck Hunt.​

The Speed Run - Summary

Lucario is a heavyweight character who utilizes the power Rage & Aura to take stocks out early. At low percents, you'd typically see Lucario going for combos, while in higher percents you'll see him attempting set ups & mix ups with Aura Sphere to get the kill. He is a bait & punish character.

Neutral/Ground Game

Throughout the match, it is imperative to keep in mind how Lucario's attacks function depending on percentage. At lower percents, his attacks are severely weaker as opposed to their damage & kill power at high percent. His specials also recieve a special type of growth based on his Aura. Along with damage & knockback, this is what happens to his specials:

Aura Sphere (Neutral B): Increases in size.
Force Palm Projectile (Side B): Hitbox increases in length.
Extreme Speed (Up B): Increased distance and speed in use.
Double Team (Down B) & Force Palm Command Grab (Side B) recieve huge boosts in knockback and damage.

Lucario will try to pressure & zone Sonic by constantly charging Aura Sphere and moving in neutral. He can Force Palm, but Sonic has the speed to punish it. He will also be using tilts along with aerials & grabs. He has very few combos, which all do little damage. At higher percents, watch out for his Smash Attacks, Aura Sphere trapping & Force Palm command grab. Lucario will also throw out his Bair, and if you're above him, his Uair. He will try to make space around him, which will allow him to set up for his kills.

If caught in the charging sequence of Aura Sphere, Lucario will either cancel it into a grab, Force Palm command grab, Up Smash, or a Short Hop Dair. If you're in the air at this moment, you can opt to Spring out of there. This is your best bet as air dodging can end up giving you landing lag here. If you're caught in this in shield, you can SDI out by moving the analog stick away from the Aura Sphere. Be careful when approaching, as Sonic can easily run and spin into them.

When Lucario manages to throw Sonic high into the air, he will either charge Aura Sphere and punish your landing using it, or follow and punish your landing from there. Agianst the former, Sonic can opt to land away from it (Platform stages can help here), fall off stage (allowing you to air dodge through it without any chance of landing lag occuring then recover with spring), or Homing Attack over it to potentially punish Lucario. You can also opt to spring out of the way, but it will put you in the same position as before. Its better to jump over it in this case, since you can fall immediately after it passes. Don't try to tech roll away from an Aura Sphere approaching you, and tech rolling towards it requires good timing and positioning, to the point where its unsafe.

For Sonic, racking up the damage agianst Lucario is a breeze, as long as you manuever yourself around Aura Sphere. What makes this match up difficult for Sonic is his lack of reliable KO power when going agianst someone who recieves a lot of benefits from being at high percent. Becafeful if you shield a lot, because Lucario can effectively destroy your shield if you keep it out. Bair & Aura Sphere are quite known to do this job.

Throughout the match up, Sonic will gain a huge lead if he manages to take a stock off Lucario first. However, stay alert as Lucario can still comeback in later stocks if he plays his cards right.​

Edeguarding/Recovery Game

When Lucario is edge guarding, expect him charge Aura Sphere, throwing Aura Sphere, or going offstage for a fair.

Lucario is most vulnerable when he is offstage, so send him there at high percent. This is even more crucial when you can't get get the kill reliably yet, or when you chose a stage that hinders his recovery. As mentioned above, Lucario's Extreme Speed goes farther & faster as his percent increases. For the most part, he will be going to ledge this way, which you could down angled Forward Smash or Down Smash agianst. The right timing allows bair to hit past Extreme Speed's hitbox and potentially kill Lucario. You can also spring agianst Lucario to rack some safe damage. If you can, you can even spike him as hes Extreme Speeding for the extreme kill. Do know that because of his recovery's reach, he is willing to stall by expending his other recovery resources or charging/shooting Aura Sphere before using Extreme Speed.

Act 1 or 2? - Stages

Lucario wants to have as much space as he can, especially agianst the Blue Blur. With bigger space comes the ability to set up. Also, Lucario wants to look for stage where he can utilize his wall cling, which would allow him to enhance his recovery greatly.

Battlefield​

• Pros
  • Sonic can Up Smash through the bottom platforms.
  • Platforms = Ways to get around Aura Sphere.
  • Lucario can't wall stick on this stage, thus hindering a safer/less perdictable recovery.
• Cons
  • Lucario can Up Smash through the bottom platforms.
  • Lucario can set up B-Reversed Aura Sphere traps off the platforms.
  • Lucario can cover platform tech rolls with Aura Sphere, be careful.
• Misc
  • Sonic can drop below the stage and recover on the other side.
  • Stage has very generous recovery walls.

Lylat Cruise​

• Pros
  • Sonic can Up Smash through some platforms.
  • Platforms = Projectiles are less effective.
    • Stage Tilt and the positioning of both characters can make fully charged Aura Sphere less or more likely to hit through top platofmrs.
  • Tilting and no wall sticking makes it harder to recover for Lucario.
  • Sonic can drop below the stage and recover on the other side.
• Cons
  • Lucario can Up Smash through the 3 platforms on the stage.
  • Lucario can cover platform tech rolls with Aura Sphere, be careful.
  • Lucario can set up B-Reversed Aura Sphere traps off the platforms.
  • Lucario can drop below the stage and recover on the other side.
• Misc
  • Stage tilting can cancel out grabs.
  • Horizontal blast zones are small by the ledge.

*More Stages to be added*

Run Away! - Stage Striking

On Duck Hunt, Lucario is able to use the walls on this stage to enhance his recovery capabilities.

Discussion

http://smashboards.com/threads/soni...3-r-o-b-bowser-jr.390575/page-9#post-20119752

Concept Matches

For videos to reference this match up, go over to the Sonic Video Archive!
http://smashboards.com/threads/sonic-video-archive.373484/​

Chapter 22
R.O.B.
​

Spoiler: Match Up Info: ±0

Spoiler: TL;DR

ROB may have good zoning by means of Lazer & Gyro, but it is combo/juggle food to Sonic. Watch out when it starts to stack rage, as even without it, it can kill us. Taking Gyro nerfs ROB's zoning, and Sonic can take advantage of it to punish rolls, landing options or follow up after using Spin Dash. Offstage, Sonic should be making sure ROB doesn't get back to the ledge, as it can run out of fuel. Giving ROB no room for set up allows Sonic to effectively rush it down. Applying close range pressure immediately is crucial in this match up, as allowing ROB to set up can make the match up a headache for Sonic.

Watch out for platforms in which ROB can cover with Up Smash, Up Tilt, or traverse to with Up Throw.

Go to Town & City, Final Destination, or Duck Hunt.
Go to Smashville if Town & City and Final Destination are banned Game 1.

Strike Battlefield and Dreamland. Lylat Cruise, Smashville, and Duck Hunt are optional bans.​

Video Guide​

The Speed Run - Summary

Neutral/Ground Game

Agianst Sonic, ROB will try to force Sonic out of its space by using Gyro, Lazers, SH Nair/Fair & Down/Forward Tilt. However, once Sonic manages to get past everything, he can rack lots of damage. Nair/Fair are easily punishable by Shield Grab. Staying close to ROB will force it from using his tools safely, and it has a hard time getting away due to Sonic's speed. At low percents, ROB is very suspectible to being juggled.

If Sonic gets ahold of Gyro, he not only nerfs ROB's neutral/zoning game, but he can utilize it for follow ups out of Spin Dash. He can also punish rolls with Gyro, edgeguard ROB with it, cover ledge get ups, and cover ROB's landing options. Sonic can also utilize Jump Canceled Glide Tosses with Gyro, by running, then canceling your jump with a toss. Do know that if ROB is holding the Gyro, it could also do the same things. Sometimes, it can repeatedly toss Gyro downwards and pick it up before actually throwing it towards Sonic. This is used for force a shield reaction from Sonic. It can also use it by ledge to cover ledge get ups which it can follow up with Up Smash. Luckily, just staying at ledge works here for Sonic, and he can choose to drop, double jump, and pick up the spring.

Another thing to point out about the Gyro is that it will disappear once it hits shield, because of this, its better to maneuver yourself around it than shield it when approaching ROB, unless you are ready to deal with Gyros back-to-back. You can opt to short hop then initiate Spin Dash/Charge, or if the Gyro is already on the ground, use Spin Dash's Hop to maneuver around it.

When ROB starts to reach Rage percents, becareful as he can easily kill Sonic. It is a heavyweight, which doesn't help Sonic much in terms of early kills. ROB's can use Up Throw to kill Sonic vertically. DI Up & Away. If you're playing on a stage with low platforms, ROB can easily take advantage of this to knock Sonic away from a higher position.

Down Throw into Uair is another option used by ROB, becareful about air doding here, as ROB can easily see it coming and punish that. Always mix up your DI when down thrown. If ROB confirms Uair, then DI Down and Right if you're on the right side of it. DI Down and Left if you are on the left side of it.

Edeguarding/Recovery Game

When Sonic is the one edge guarding, Sonic has to know that ROB's Up B has a set amount of gas, that only recovers slowly when it is grounded. Knowing this, you can opt to keep ROB suspended in air until it runs out of gas, forcing it to drop to its death. When ROB is trying to recover vertically, Sonic can rack damage, or at the very least, force FOB to exhuast more gas by dropping Springs on it. Sonic can also Dair Spike/Stage Spike Robe, forcing it to utilize much more gas to recover. Sonic can also throw out Fair/Bair to keep ROB away from ledge. Do know that ROB can cancel out it's Up B into an aerial, most notably Uair, so watch out. Also, ROB players will try to save gas by mashing Up B rather than holding it.

When ROB is the edgeguarder, he can always keep Sonic out with Fair/Nair, Gyro and Lazer. If Sonic attempts to recover to ledge with Spring, it is crucial to autosnap to ledge. To autosnap to ledge with Spring, Sonic must be facing the ledge & must have went up half the distance of Spring. B-Reversing Spring will help Sonic snap to ledge if he is facing away from the ledge. Springing past ledge can leave Sonic very vulerable to ROB's Down Smash, which can surely kill Sonic off if he can't make the horizontal distance back. Sonic can also get Dair Spiked, Forward Smashed, or hit by a dropped Gyro. When Sonic reaches ledge, pay clear attention to ROB if it is holding Gyro. It can opt to throw Gyro infront of the ledge then run back to Up Smash, as it covers mutliple ledge options. It can ROB can also Side B by Ledge to cover grounded get ups.

Act 1 or 2? - Stages

Final Destination, Town & City, and Duck Hunt are the stages Sonic should go to. In the case Final Destination and Town & City are banned in game one, then go to Smashville.

Run Away! - Stage Striking

Dreamland & Battlefield are your most reconmended bans. If you choose not to ban those stages,then optional
bans include Duck Hunt, Lylat Cruise, or Smashville.

Discussion

http://smashboards.com/threads/soni...er-20-21-ness-ryu.390575/page-9#post-20296427

http://smashboards.com/threads/r-o-b-matchup-analysis-4-sonic.392455/#post-18668888

Concept Matches

For videos to reference this match up, go over to the Sonic Video Archive!
http://smashboards.com/threads/sonic-video-archive.373484/​

Chapter 25
Toon Link
​

Spoiler: Match Up Info: ±0

Spoiler: TL;DR

In the match up, it is best to stay close enough to Toon Link to where you aren't able to get grabbed, but not far enough to where he can safely throw out his projectiles. When approaching, powershield or hop over projectiles. Don't air dodge towards Toon Link in an aerial approach. Never challenge a grounded Toon Link from the air. If you catch the bomb, you can use it to cover landings, cancel out projectiles, or to extend your offensive pressure. Spot dodging or hopping over the hook tether grab will allow for a free punish. Offstage, rack safe damage/potential gimps by using Spring. Fair/Bair also helps out with gimping. Toon Link is also lighter, so Up Throw becomes a better option near higher percents, especially with rage. Having the stock lead agianst Toon Link will force him to close in more for the kill, so camping in this situation can help lead to punishing Toon Link more effectively.

Lylat is your best stage agianst Toon Link. Duck Hunt should be striked.​

The Speed Run - Summary

Neutral/Ground Game

This match up is like an episode of Tom & Jerry: In the neutral, Toon Link will try to keep distance and zone Sonic out with Boomerangs, Arrows, and Bombs. Our goal is to be just outside of his grab range. When approaching, utilizing powershields will help Sonic deal with said projectiles. Although both Boomerangs and Arrows will disappear on shield, Bombs will bounce off. If Sonic approaches with Spin Charge or his Dash Attack, there is a chance that the Multi-Hits will allow Sonic to get past the bomb without taking any damage. If Sonic wants to avoid using shield, he can choose to hop over the projectiles, or Spin Shot over him. The problem with this is that this causes Sonic to be above Toon Link, which he can cover with Up Smash, Up Tilt or his projectiles, so use this type of approach when you know you can be safe on landing. If you get caught in an Up Tilt chain, your best bet is to Spring out of there.

Once Sonic is able to get past the projectiles, he is able to rack tons of damage on Toon Link. However, do keep in mind that Toon Link can also fight close range, has a Zair, and has a tether grab. Shielding Toon Link's aerials and Smash Attacks allow for easy punishes with Grab. Agianst the tether grab, Sonic can opt to Short Hop over it or Spot Dodge, which he can then go in for the punish. If Toon Link is carrying a bomb close to you, he is either going to opt to throw it at you, or use it to pressure you into shield for a free grab. Getting hit with the bomb (and boomerang) in this range allows him to follow up with Fair, which can kill by ledge. Getting hit by it can also allow hiim to follow up with many other moves. You're more likely going to see the grab at lower percents, or in higher percents when he can Back Throw you.

If the Toon Link is in the air above Sonic, this allows Sonic to easily approach him. Do keep in mind of Bombs and Boomerangs, along with Dair/Fair. Spin Dash is great for catching landings. However, in the reverse situation, refrain from air dodging towards a grounded Toon Link, as this allows him to punish Sonic with anything. Try to avoid landing with him under you in general.

Because he is a lighter character, Sonic can use this to his advantage when trying to kill him. Sonic can kill Toon Link earlier with Up Throw, if Back Throw isn't going to kill. If Toon Link has the bomb, Sonic can wait for it to explode by pummeling Toon Link, then throwing him away before it explodes.

If Sonic gets the stock lead, he can force Toon Link to approach because his projectiles will not kill Sonic.

Edeguarding/Recovery Game

When Toon Link manages to send Sonic offstage, he will use his projectiles to pressure Sonic, or at least get more damage in. He can drop the Z-Drop the bomb on Sonic, which could set up for a stage spike or a Fair depending on the direction it sends Sonic. Down Smash/Down Tilt by ledge will punish Sonic if he doesn't autosnap, and Forward Smash can secure a brutal kill. As always, auto snap to ledge. If Sonic resnaps to ledge, Toon Link can take advantage of that to Dair Spike Sonic. Sonic using a grounded ledge get up can be punished with Tornado Spin.

When the sides switch, Sonic can safely rack damage/gimp on Toon Link by dropping Springs on him. What is even better for Toon Link is if he uses bombs to recover and ends up damaging himself more after the Spring damage. With good accuracy, Sonic can also Dair Spike him out of his Tornado Spin and attempted Tether Recovery. Fair/Bair also send the boy further from stage, making it harder for a recovery.

Act 1 or 2? - Stages

Lylat Cruise​

• Pros
  • Sonic can Up Smash through some platforms.
  • Platforms = Ways to get around Projectiles
  • Tilting can screw with Link's projectiles.
  • Tethering to ledge requires more accuracy with Toon Link
• Cons
  • The Lylat Syndrome.
• Misc
  • Stage tilting can cancel out grabs.
  • Horizontal blast zones are small by the ledge.

Run Away! - Stage Striking

Striking stages agianst Toon Link can be hard, as he doesn't lose much of anything. Battlefield, Smashville, & Town & City allows platform pressure with Toon Link, while Final Destination allows Sonic no places for him to land safely agianst a chasing Tink.

Duck Hunt - Tink's recovery strengthens due to the Walls. Ducks don't really get in the way of projectiles unless thrown upwards. Lots of space for Toon Link to pressure with projectiles.

Dreamland 64 - Similar to battlefield, but more room for Tink to pressure with his projectiles.

Discussion

http://smashboards.com/threads/soni...3-bowser-greninja.390575/page-9#post-20389755

Concept Matches

For videos to reference this match up, go over to the Sonic Video Archive!
http://smashboards.com/threads/sonic-video-archive.373484/​

Chapter 32
Bowser

Spoiler: Match Up Info - Incomplete

Spoiler: TL;DR

Stay on the move to avoid getting grabbed, while forcing Bowser to throw out moves. Due to Bowser's immense lag, Sonic can easily find openings to punish if he baits them out. Bowser is combo food to Sonic, so you can maximize your punishes effectively. Sonic can also juggle him very effectively, and can easily capitalize on his poor landing. Offstage, while Spring loses to Whirling Fortress, it does lose to our forward smash by ledge along with our aerials. Killing Bowser can take some time, but when in the stock lead, Sonic can effectively camp Bowser.

The Speed Run - Summary

Neutral/Ground Game

Edeguarding/Recovery Game

Act 1 or 2? - Stages


Discussion
http://smashboards.com/threads/soni...0-31-cloud-lucas.390575/page-12#post-20768483

Concept Matches

For videos to reference this match up, go over to the Sonic Video Archive!
http://smashboards.com/threads/sonic-video-archive.373484/

Chapter 35
Wii Fit Trainer
​

Spoiler: Match Up Info - Partially Complete

The Speed Run - Summary

Neutral/Ground Game

Let's talk about what each character's goals are in this match up.

Sonic's goal is primarily to get the lead, that way we can force WFT to approach. Because he isn't in the lead when the match starts, Sonic has to approach. It's beneficial for Sonic to stay close enough to WFT where she can't safely charge Sun Salutation and Deep Breathing without risking the chance of being punished.

The big problem for Sonic is that if he utilizes Spin Dash or Charge in this situation, and ends up not confirming a hit, this allows WFT to:
​

A: Charge Sun Salutation or Deep Breathing as Sonic is trying to reset neutral or get back to approaching WFT.
B: Chase/Pressure Sonic who is now attempting to reset neutral or at least move to a safer spot.
C: Run away and reset neutral​

Because of this, the game becomes a cat (Sonic) & mouse (WFT) situation if Sonic does not have the lead. HOWEVER, if Sonic does get the stock lead, Sonic can easily force WFT to approach him, because at this point Sonic just has to keep a healthy shield and stick away from WFT.

As for Wii Fit Trainer, as you could probably tell from above, is to keep away from Sonic and charge Sun Salutations, zone with them and Headers, and get buffs from Deep Breathing. She heals as she does these things, which helps her in the long run and also negates Sonic's potential to properly camp her out if they are on the same stock.​

Edeguarding/Recovery Game

Act 1 or 2? - Stages


Discussion

http://smashboards.com/threads/soni...-wii-fit-trainer.390575/page-13#post-20845715

Concept Matches

For videos to reference this match up, go over to the Sonic Video Archive!
http://smashboards.com/threads/sonic-video-archive.373484/
​

Chapter 42
Bayonetta
​

Spoiler: Match Up Info: ±0 (1.1.5)

The Speed Run - Summary

Neutral/Ground Game

Sonic should play a Bait & Punish playstyle. He needs to stay grounded and patient in the match up. He should be very wary of over commiting and should camp Bayonetta when having the lead. Shield more when reaching death percent, and grab more when Bayonetta reaches said percent. Becareful not to shield or get grabbed by ledge at this percent.

In the case Bayonetta confirms Witch Time, Air Dodge, Spot Dodge, Spring or Shield in order to protect yourself from potential punishes. To flat out avoid the possibility of Witch Time activating, go for grabs or only attack when Bayonetta is in lag.

Agianst Bayonetta's Jab, if Sonic's shields it up close until rapid jab, Bayonetta willmove herself past Sonic, allowing for a free punish of Forward Smash, Down Smash, Spin Dash, Forward Tilt, Grab, Jab, and Bair.

When Bayonetta utilizes Bullet Climax, Sonic can easily manuever over it with Spin Shot, or go directly under and punish Bayonetta with Spin Charge. Be careful about using Spin Dash up close because the little hop can end up getting Sonic stuck in the bullets. When recovering, Sonic can simply airdodge through it when falling.

Agianst Heel Slide, Sonic can simply shield it then punish. If Sonic's shield gets hit by the earlier portion of the hitbox, he will have to chase Bayonetta and punish with Dash Attack, Grab or Spin Charge. I wouldn't reconmend Spin Dash up close because of the likelihood of Bayonetta doing the Flip Kick, which can catch it Spin Dash's hop. If Heel Slide hits Sonic's shield near the end of it, Grab, Forward Smash, and Forward Tilt can get the job done. The Heel Slide is one hitbox while the Flip Kick is another single hitbox. Sonic can opt to shield both hits before grabbing or grab between the two hitboxes. If there is space for it, Sonic can also run barely out of range and Forward Smash/Forward Tilt. Do not try Spin Dashing/Charging agianst Heel Slide. You will lose. In the case Bayonetta confirms Heel Slide, always jump away, as Bayonetta can punish it with Forward Smash.

Agianst Dive Kick, Sonic can take Bayonetta to stages with platforms in order to hinder Dive Kick pressure. If she uses it as an approach, spot dodge or back roll to force her onto the ground where she suffers more lag and punish. If you're spacing is correct, extend dash dancing away then back in also works here. Running away then Spin Dashing back also works. If Bayonetta misspaces the Dive Kick, Sonic can Bair her as she descends from the side.

In the case where Bayonetta is able to set up a combo, always DI down and in the direction she is facing. SDI'ing this direction and air dodging also works wonders when getting out of her combos.

In close situations, Bayonetta can Witch Twist out of shield, which can set up combos. In this situation, you can choose to DI/SDI the same as mentioned above, or SDI up and diagonally left and right. If Sonic manages to shield Witch Twist, he can punish it with Uair out of shield.

Do take into account that the more specials Bayonetta does in the air, the more landing lag she will have. In case you get combo'ed and she whiffs the next hit, land as close as you can to her safely and do what you can to grab her. She may use falling Nair to protect herself, shield it.

Edeguarding/Recovery Game

When edgeguarding, take advantage of After Burner Kick's end lag to Bair/Fair Bayonetta away. Down Angled Forward Smash also works here. Do know that if you confirm a hit, Bayonetta can After Burner Kick again. Springing Bayonetta can work, but can lose to her Witch Twist. Don't Challenge Witch Twist.

When recovering, Sonic should usually snap to ledge from below. Not snapping to ledge poses a risk of being spiked by Bayonetta's Down Smash. When at ledge, be very careful if you decide to input any attack, as being Witch Timed here usually means a free stock for Bayonetta. Your focus should be getting back on stage and resetting neutral at this point. As stated earlier, becareful of being grabbed here at high percents. As mentioned earlier, if Bullet Climax is being used as safe damage, Sonic can easily Spin Shot over it or airdodge through it.

Act 1 or 2? - Stages

*Make sure to read the Stage Striking section*

Smashville​

• Pros
  • Uairs are nice for us.
  • 90% - Up Throw > Up B > Up Air = kill
  • Can use platform for camping, especially helpful when Sonic has the lead.
  • Platform also helps Sonic agianst Dive Kick Pressure.
  • Ducks can get in the way of Bayonetta's combos and Dive Kick pressure.
• Cons
  • Bayonetta can Up Smash the platform from underneith.
• Misc
  • Platform near edges can encourage platform camping.
  • Lower stage ceiling. Not as low as Town & City
  • There is a balloon that comes every now and then with a hurtbox.

Duck Hunt​

• Pros
  • Platform Layout allows Sonic to evade and camp Bayonetta easier.
  • Lots of room for the Blue Blur. Great if Sonic has the lead for camping.
  • We can use wall jump to stall or help with recovery.
  • Ducks can get in the way of Bayonetta's combos and Dive Kick pressure.
• Cons
  • Bayonetta can Up Smash the Bush platform from underneith.
• Misc
  • Every now and then part of the stage gets covered in grass. You can do running up Smash as a surprise or something from there lol
  • Duck Hunt Dog will appear every now and then regardless of whether anyone hit a duck or not. He is a platform, which can cancel grabs. You can somewhat manipulate where he comes from by hitting the ducks.

Run Away! - Stage Striking

Lylat Cruise has Bullet Climax shenanigans and Bayonetta's Up Smash covers every tech option on the platforms. In the case Sonic doesn't have the stock lead, this could make catching up even harder than it should be.

As mentioned before, one of Bayonetta's approach options is her Dive Kick. Confiriming it can allow Bayonetta to easily convert it into heavy damage or a stock. Final Destination is not the stage to go to if you are prone to getting hit by Dive Kick or wish not to deal with it much during her approach. There is also good room on that stage for Bayonetta to combo. Do take into account that Dive Kick is punishable as mentioned above, so banning Final Destination isn't exactly a mandatory ban.

Bayonetta can get more out of Town & City's ceiling because it is lower, thus allowing vertical based kill combos to be more effective. However, the platform arrangement can effect when she will use Dive Kick. The same can be said about Dreamland 64. The balloon on Town & City could get in the way of Bayonetta's combo just like it would on Smashville's balloon and Duck Hunt's ducks, but do not rely on this perk when choosing stages. Just like Final Destination, banning either stage isn't as impactful as banning Lylat.

Discussion

http://smashboards.com/threads/soni...bayonetta-corrin.390575/page-14#post-21073084

Concept Matches

For videos to reference this match up, go over to the Sonic Video Archive!
http://smashboards.com/threads/sonic-video-archive.373484/
​

 

[Rucent]

You may ask "why did Kinzer go with Sheik?" Because f*** you, that's why I believe this is a matchup just about everybody has come across at some point or another. Sheik is a very popular character, having just about everything a good character needs in this game: a strong projectile, good punish game and quick mobility, decent strings. The only glorifying weakness I can see in her is a sort of lack of kill power. Outside of a tippered Usmash, she seems to have trouble outright killing a character. Killing a character from her perspective is probably going to involve some edgeguarding or frame-traps/baits. I wanted to start this thread on something on which everybody will have something to say; just to get things rolling... you know... 'cause Sonic is a ball.... yeah~...

 

[ROOOOY!]

Good **** on making this Kinz. I do think you raise an excellent point as to who to discuss, best to discuss prevelant threats now who we have experience against rather than theory crafting about say Rosa or DHD for example because for the time being not enough people have enough experience against them.

Sheik discuss tiem?

 

[Camalange]

Stickied.

I'll leave Ch. 2 unstickied as we can just link to it or post in that thread as needed. Thanks again for taking this initiative, Kinzer.

 

[Sonic Orochi]

Sheik:

• if grabbed, DI towards and upwards. I know this pretty much ensures a Fair/Uair followup but that's way less threatening and a Fthrow->Bouncing Fish string. If it's a Dthrow, DI away. Don't overuse airdodging after the DI: they can use Vanish in order to catch us after the invincibility frames end;
• take her to stages like Lylat, Halberd, Castle Siege, DK Jungle.. you know, where her Needles' trajectory will suffer due to the terrain not being entirely flat;
• Her Ftilt is our doom. We can't Uair inbetween and our only hope of escape is to DI away and spam jump/Spring;
• Don't overuse the Spring while onstage because her speed and aerials are definitely going to be a pain in the ass when combined with our delightful landing options.

 

[Kinzer]

Good **** on making this Kinz.

Sheik discuss tiem?

Thank you, sir! Now if only it were a bit more presentable... That's what I get for promising a deadline.

So yes, Sheik will be our rotation this time around.

Stickied.

I'll leave Ch. 2 unstickied as we can just link to it or post in that thread as needed. Thanks again for taking this initiative, Kinzer.

Of course. I didn't plan on making weekly vote threads sticky-worthy. They'll just be there until they pass their expiration date. I was hoping you would lock them too, even. I hate necromancy; even if the Necromancer was my favorite class in Diablo II.

Stuff and things.

Wait, what? I thought DIing up and away was always the right choice. I don't know about you; but, Uair is a nasty frame-trap that can actually kill at later percents... or if you're stupid enough to go to Halberd and let her do that to you.

I also feel like it's going to be a lot of mixing up involved on both parties. For Sonic, it seems especially critical being that his options are limited no thanks to Sheik's needles. I wonder how safe FTilt/DTilt would be here.



Also, somewhat unrelated to Sheik, holy freaking crap! I am tired of trying to make any changes to the OP right now! It's basically to a point that if I do anything it screws up; which means the original copy in of itself is flawed! Dammit all, I'm not one to release buggy 1.0s! One wrong move, and it all goes to Hell! I'm just going to have to fix it in basic text format when I'm not tired/pressing for time. Sorry everybody.

 

[Sonic Orochi]

Well, it always depends on your %, stage positioning, the opponent's playstyle etc. but I think Bouncing Fish is usually more dangerous than a Fair or Uair (depending on the stage, obviously).

 

[Camalange]

Of course. I didn't plan on making weekly vote threads sticky-worthy. They'll just be there until they pass their expiration date. I was hoping you would lock them too, even. I hate necromancy; even if the Necromancer was my favorite class in Diablo II.

And I love locking threads so it's a win-win.

Uthrow > Spring > Aerial combos work really consistently on Sheik for some reason... You can get true combos on her from like 30-90%.

I had a friend who mains Sheik test it, and I think even if they DI it properly it's hard for her to completely avoid.

 

[BlackPhantom]

Wow I thought about this earier and asked myself why we had not started this and here it is. Have you guys been spying on me?

 

[WispBae]

Howdy there, the Duck Hunt forums have begun talking about the Sonic MU! Some advice, tips and thoughts on the MU would be greatly appreciated! You scratch our backs (rub our bellies?) and... uhh... we'll promise not to pee on the carpet...?

...I dunno...

http://smashboards.com/threads/sic-...mu-to-be-voted-on.379294/page-3#post-18553150

Also, that oversized chicken is pretty scary. It's like a 99-1 MU against Sonic...

 

[Lawz.]

Well, it always depends on your %, stage positioning, the opponent's playstyle etc. but I think Bouncing Fish is usually more dangerous than a Fair or Uair (depending on the stage, obviously).

Would you rather take 19% damage from the bouncing fish? Or take the same, if not more, plus be most likely sent offstage from a string of fairs?

I know Sonic has a great recovery, but one of Sheik's strengths is her edgeguarding and I can't imagine Sonic has a plethora of options to combat this.

 

[Camalange]

Would you rather take 19% damage from the bouncing fish? Or take the same, if not more, plus be most likely sent offstage from a string of fairs?

I know Sonic has a great recovery, but one of Sheik's strengths is her edgeguarding and I can't imagine Sonic has a plethora of options to combat this.

Can you confirm the janky effectiveness of Sonic's Spring > Uair combos versus Sheik?

 

[Kinzer]

I think I'll do what all the other character boards do and invite the Sheik players over for a discussion.

... Tomorrow. I want to see if there's anything anyone else here has to say before I have them over for a different opinion/perspective.

Would you rather take 19% damage from the bouncing fish? Or take the same, if not more, plus be most likely sent offstage from a string of fairs?

I know Sonic has a great recovery, but one of Sheik's strengths is her edgeguarding and I can't imagine Sonic has a plethora of options to combat this.

Two question:

1. Do throws at later %s lead into Bouncing GayFish? If the answer is yes, then that will certainly be something to avoid for guaranteed early kill-setups.

2. Could you please further elaborate on how a Sheik edgeguards? I figured being a ninja (and having Needles) means she has some tools to work around the edge; but, is there anything that is worthy of its own mention? I fail to see what a simple airdodge can't cover.

... Unless you meant trying to get back on the stage after reaching to the ledge. In which case, I will concede that much; though, I do believe Sonic can play this same trump card as well; given his natural movement speed.

 

[Sonic Orochi]

Would you rather take 19% damage from the bouncing fish? Or take the same, if not more, plus be most likely sent offstage from a string of fairs?

I know Sonic has a great recovery, but one of Sheik's strengths is her edgeguarding and I can't imagine Sonic has a plethora of options to combat this.

I guess at lower percents Bouncing GayFish might just be the way to go, in order to minimize the damage output from a Fthrow.

Overall, though, I think BGF poses much more of a threat because it can potentially kill, whereas Fair strings mostly become a nuisance at higher percentages, with only the possibility of leading to a edgeguard KO.

1. Do throws at later %s lead into Bouncing GayFish? If the answer is yes, then that will certainly be something to avoid for guaranteed early kill-setups.

I think it can combo out of Fthrow if you DI away.

 

[Lawz.]

Can you confirm the janky effectiveness of Sonic's Spring > Uair combos versus Sheik?

They work pretty damn well on her.

I think I'll do what all the other character boards do and invite the Sheik players over for a discussion.

... Tomorrow. I want to see if there's anything anyone else here has to say before I have them over for a different opinion/perspective.



Two question:

1. Do throws at later %s lead into Bouncing GayFish? If the answer is yes, then that will certainly be something to avoid for guaranteed early kill-setups.

2. Could you please further elaborate on how a Sheik edgeguards? I figured being a ninja (and having Needles) means she has some tools to work around the edge; but, is there anything that is worthy of its own mention? I fail to see what a simple airdodge can't cover.

... Unless you meant trying to get back on the stage after reaching to the ledge. In which case, I will concede that much; though, I do believe Sonic can play this same trump card as well; given his natural movement speed.

Fthrow > Bouncing Fish is pretty guaranteed at lower percents and on Sonic it's from the 0-25% range. If a Sheik grabs you at 0% and does the fthrow > bouncing fish, it does about 18-19% damage. The Sheik boards have a thread dedicated to what percent fthrow > bouncing fish works on each character as seen here http://smashboards.com/threads/sheik-fthrow-into-bouncing-fish-combos-complete.377874/#post-18540237.

You'll probably also want to look at this thread
http://smashboards.com/threads/shei...-into-usmash-beginning-combo-percents.385002/ as it elaborates on what percents Sheik can get ftilt > ftilt to work, as well as ftilt > fair and ftilt > usmash.

As for edgeguarding, and this is from my experience against Camalange, Sheik does really well when she can create a wall of fairs and bairs when Sonic is trying to return to the stage. Her nair, fair, and bair have great priority and if spaced well, beats out Sonic's spin dash (and other notable aerials) quite easily. Of course it's not like she's Brawl MK so of course Sonic's aerials aren't completely useless or anything and with the right spacing on Sonic's part (and lack thereof from Sheik) you can still be a threat, but Sheik has great priority in general. Also be wary as bouncing fish itself is a fantastic edgeguarding tool as it comes out fast, has a trajectory that can be altered, beats A LOT of moves and sends people far away from the stage. Her needles are great at eating double jumps and when in kill percents, they do a great job of giving Sheik a bouncing fish opportunity as the move lasts long enough to pop the opponent in the air just long enough. This isn't exactly guaranteed, but it's another thing to watch out for. And if recovering low with Spring, Sheik can do jumping needles which are thrown in a diagonal trajectory facing downwards that can stuff Sonic if he doesn't sweet spot the edge. Sonic can not be predictable when it comes to recovering.

The problem with airdodging Sheik's aerials, whether it's edgeguarding or just in a juggling situation in general, is that Sheik eats airdodge for breakfast. Her fthrow setups aren't feared because of her damage per se, it's because her setups lead into a 60/40 situation in her favor. Her fair is so freaking fast that the move ends fast enough to punish an airdodge with yet another fair. Sheik WANTS you to airdodge in these situations, she thrives off of it.

I guess at lower percents Bouncing GayFish might just be the way to go, in order to minimize the damage output from a Fthrow.

Overall, though, I think BGF poses much more of a threat because it can potentially kill, whereas Fair strings mostly become a nuisance at higher percentages, with only the possibility of leading to a edgeguard KO.



I think it can combo out of Fthrow if you DI away.

Sonic can be juggled fairly easily from a fthrow >fair setup. Sheik can do a reset after the first or maybe even second fair and can usually get a ftilt out which can build more damage and also lead into another grab due to the lack of knockback the move has. I'm not saying you should willingly take the bouncing fish as it does 19% which is pretty good damage, but I'm just giving you an overall view of the entire situation she creates from her fthrow.

You can see in this video of False vs. 6wx
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3oWaBtFYBAI the very first few seconds False lands the fthrow > bouncing fish combo so you can see how it works, the damage that is dealt, and where it leaves both characters in the situation. Ultimately it's up to your judgement on how you want to DI and which follow up you would rather take.

And yeah if you DI away from Sheik, that pretty much gives her the bouncing fish .

 

[Camalange]

2. Could you please further elaborate on how a Sheik edgeguards? I figured being a ninja (and having Needles) means she has some tools to work around the edge; but, is there anything that is worthy of its own mention? I fail to see what a simple airdodge can't cover.

... Unless you meant trying to get back on the stage after reaching to the ledge. In which case, I will concede that much; though, I do believe Sonic can play this same trump card as well; given his natural movement speed.

If this is what you believe then you're falling right into their trap.

Lawz covered a lot of what could be said, but as far as things that Sheik has a hard time dealing with…

Uair. Our Uair is so good in general, but in this match-up it's one of the things we need the most. Sheik's landing options aren't terrible purely because of bair/fair/nair being so fast, but Sonic can really juggle her so effectively and prevent her from landing with Uair since her Dair is extremely niche and she can't assert any disjoints below her that could beat Uair. As mentioned before, you can Uthrow into Uairs or Spring Uairs and it will work until pretty high percents for guaranteed damage.

We're also not as screwed by needles as some character, unless you're an idiot who tries to spin charge directly at her all the time.

Also, if Sheik doesn't get her BGF or an early gimp, Sonic can live pretty long and kill her far sooner. Her biggest weakness is that she can wrack up damage for days but has an issue landing the KO, so Sonic can really exploit this due to being a pretty mid-weight character with great recovery tools and overall movement options to keep her at bay. I'd say this is a match-up where being an annoying hedgehog is what you'll need to survive long against her so you can try to land a Fsmash or more likely Bthrow to kill her before she can to you.

 

[Kinzer]

I was thinking more of airdodging offstage. Believe me, I understand full well that doing it where you will land and be punished for it is basically smash 101.

However, I do appreciate that you took the time to respond to me... and thoroughly, at that.

 

[Sonic Orochi]

So.. Uthrow/Fthrow more against Sheik?

 

[Camalange]

So.. Uthrow/Fthrow more against Sheik?

Pretty much.

 

[kid craft 24/sonic master]

are we able to Usmash sheik out of bouncing fish similar to Usmashing diddy out of monkey flip?

 

[Kinzer]

are we able to Usmash sheik out of bouncing fish similar to Usmashing diddy out of monkey flip?

Don't know; that'd be a good thing to find out.

Anyway, today's the last scheduled day. If no one else has anything to say, I'll move this project forward tomorrow. I don't know when I'll have the written guide out; but, I'll try my best to have it out sooner rather than later.

I'm going to take a nap before I have to go to work. Zzzz...

 

[BlackPhantom]

Don't you think we should get the shiek mains to help us out a bit.

 

[Camalange]

Lawz put in some work and he has a strong background and understanding of Sonic (you're welcome). I played Vinnie today too, but there was nothing for me to note from it that I felt was different from things we've already discussed.

Although, Vinnie's Sheik could convert from like any move at any percent into actual combos. It was pretty unreal.

 

[Kinzer]

Don't you think we should get the shiek mains to help us out a bit.

I tried asking.

Either I was ignored; or, unable to be lent a helping hand.

I rather have somebody with extensive knowledge of their own character and the opponent character in question. In this case, I can suffice with Cammy's acquaintance's wise words with wisdom. Alliterations are awesome.

Although, Vinnie's Sheik could convert from like any move at any percent into actual combos. It was pretty unreal.

Perfect practice is a beautiful thing. You, of all people, should acknowledge, understand, and respect that. :wink:

Alright; so, for those reading this now, I'll be updating the vote for next week's character of interest. Meanwhile, I would like for all of you to look at the first/older vote thread for a discussion on which I'd like to get your word on. For future reference, of course.

... Just give me a minute. Those who are reading this at this hour might not see anything... because this is actually just the first post I'm making now to get things going.

In the meantime, because the good majority of you seem to want to discuss Luigi, I expect a good amount of conversing from you, for I have nothing to offer in terms of experience.

Edit: Oh my God, you people better appreciate this!

I actually have to make a DeviantArt account so as to avoid potential copyright jerks coming after me.

You realize how hard it is to find an original, unlicensed piece of work without watermarks? I swear, I thought I would never live to see the day I actually intentionally visit that cesspool of a website for material.

Double edit: Grrrr! That stupid excuse of a website assumes that my post to try and get the artist's attention is spam. Well, you know what?! I'm just going to link the artists profile + a direct link to the image in question. If there's any problem with me using it, I'll be more than glad to take it down if I'm contacted. Otherwise, screw that website to Hell, I'm going to continue to use what I please as necessary.

 

[Camalange]

I rather have somebody with extensive knowledge of their own character and the opponent character in question. In this case, I can suffice with Cammy's acquaintance's wise words with wisdom. Alliterations are awesome.

Perfect practice is a beautiful thing. You, of all people, should acknowledge, understand, and respect that. :wink:

Yeah, I'm pretty perf.

I actually have to make a DeviantArt account so as to avoid potential copyright jerks coming after me.

You realize how hard it is to find an original, unlicensed piece of work without watermarks? I swear, I thought I would never live to see the day I actually intentionally visit that cesspool of a website for material.

Double edit: Grrrr! That stupid excuse of a website assumes that my post to try and get the artist's attention is spam. Well, you know what?! I'm just going to link the artists profile + a direct link to the image in question. If there's any problem with me using it, I'll be more than glad to take it down if I'm contacted. Otherwise, screw that website to Hell, I'm going to continue to use what I please as necessary.

lolololol

 

[RedrappeR]

sorry about my lax updating on the other thread. School gets in the way -_-

 

[Camalange]

No worries. It's not a personal thing; We just needed a more strict and coordinated match-up thread.

 

[Kinzer]

No worries. It's not a personal thing; We just needed a more strict and coordinated match-up thread.

Oey!

Less casual talk, more discussion about how to help your fellow /S/onic's not get bopped by Luigi like you did.

You baddie!

Spoiler

<3

Pl0x, I need some sort of data.

 

[Camalange]

Oey!

Less casual talk, more discussion about how to help your fellow /S/onic's not get bopped by Luigi like you did.

You baddie!

Spoiler

<3

Quit responding to bad behavior and perpetuating it with smack talk. This only further encourages it. I will constitute this as spam and infract accordingly.

Spoiler

jk <3

Pl0x, I need some sort of data.

I will either post later or edit this post with what I can share with more depth.

For starters, just note that Luigi's fireballs have more shield stun than hitstun. It's stupid. They'll imprison you in your shield.

 

[Auroura]

Alright, I think I can give some Luigi advice as I've got a few in my state one of which I play against nearly EVERY day. I think it's common knowledge at this point but beware his up smash, his head has invulnerability on it, so personally I don't find it wise to jump directly above him and approach from the air. From my experience. Luigi is almost always looking for a grab because that's how he racks up his damage with dthrow (I think?) into fairs. From the Luigis that I've played they always spam fire ball (Which will either stop or clank with our Spin dash/charge depending on how long its charged) we can deal with the fireball spam simply by power shielding them and walking up to him. I don't know if it's a trend with my Luigis or Weegee in general, but usually at a certain distance if I shield or powershield a fireball, Luigi just runs up for a grab. If they are playing that predictable, you do have the time to either A) Roll back and Punish or B)Short hop and punish. When using option B be careful because it could be a run up and up smash. So I find backing off and punishing the whiffed smash or dash grab is most effective. Never let go of shield until tornado punch is done. It's simply not worth (Maybe not even possible?) to shield grab it. Once he's off the side of the stage he's fairly predictable and doesn't have the greatest of recoveries. So backthrowing him off the stage seems most effective and setting up for edge guards. Honestly, this matchup is very easy in my opinion so long as you keep the pressure on and room to spam fireballs. However fireballs turn it from a great matchup to a not-so-great matchup. Hope this helps.

 

[ROOOOY!]

^ is tornado punch down b? Seriously **** that, but you can shield grab it early on. The move itself is a real momentum killer.

And on the note of fireballs and their shieldstun, I tend to spinshot to close the gap because the linearity of the fireballs make them easy enough to avoid. Just don't get your spacing wrong or you'll take a utilt => aerial string at low percents, or just get u smashed for the KO.

I'll write something later, food now.

 

[Camalange]

Spinshot versus fireball will work like, once a set against a good Luigi. You can't be greedy with it because spinshot actually puts you in a really bad position. Ripe for utilts, usmash, etc. It's a good mix-up though.

Fireballs are annoying because I still don't know the right answer to them. I feel like no matter how you respond, Luigi can benefit. shieldstun is ridiculous, so it's a free grab if you don't powershield, and even if you do powershield, I feel like they still have time to grab depending on your distance. Getting grabbed is going to cost you like 20% because of his free follow-ups. His jab is good too, so it's not like he's only looking for grab. I guess you can like, try to eat a fireball with Side-B but doesn't sound consistent.

I think you sort of just have to play the camp game and try to force an opening… Keep your distance. Otherwise, Luigi totally wins the neutral game. Only time I feel kind of safe against Luigi is if he's above me for Uair strings and avoidance of fireball, but even then he's not totally defenseless. His dair is good and tornado is stupid.

Best bets are probably to get him offstage or above you… Like most of our match-ups.

 

[Oracle_Summon]

Spinshot versus fireball will work like, once a set against a good Luigi. You can't be greedy with it because spinshot actually puts you in a really bad position. Ripe for utilts, usmash, etc. It's a good mix-up though.

Fireballs are annoying because I still don't know the right answer to them. I feel like no matter how you respond, Luigi can benefit. shieldstun is ridiculous, so it's a free grab if you don't powershield, and even if you do powershield, I feel like they still have time to grab depending on your distance. Getting grabbed is going to cost you like 20% because of his free follow-ups. His jab is good too, so it's not like he's only looking for grab. I guess you can like, try to eat a fireball with Side-B but doesn't sound consistent.

I think you sort of just have to play the camp game and try to force an opening… Keep your distance. Otherwise, Luigi totally wins the neutral game. Only time I feel kind of safe against Luigi is if he's above me for Uair strings and avoidance of fireball, but even then he's not totally defenseless. His dair is good and tornado is stupid.

Best bets are probably to get him offstage or above you… Like most of our match-ups.

Just watch out for Luigi's back air and neutral air when approaching him aerially.

 

[Sonic Orochi]

If the Luigi uses aerial Fireball and then a grounded Fireball, you can actually jump over the first one (not really "over" it, just enough so you can go past it) and HA him when he's launching the second one.

Spring gimping him is good too. If the Spring hits him, cool. If his missile hits the Spring, he will lose all horizontal momentum and keep falling to his doom. If you miss.. well, you'll probably have enough time to try again at least one more time.

Onstage: he'll try to grab us as much as we'll try to grab him. Don't get predictable because his dthrow followups are insanely good (IIRC, he can dthrow/uthrow into tornado and kill at the ceiling).

 

[Camalange]

I'm not sure at what percents tornado is a true combo after a throw. It's not as reliable as you would think (same with the flashy players that try to land an upB after a throw…)

Spring will help horizontally, but Luigi will try to cover as low as he can with tornado and upB and I think tornado eats springs now? Can't remember for sure. Could be wrong on that one.

 

[Sonic Orochi]

I see. Maybe just Spring out of his Dthrow then, if you see the Tornado followup coming. Pretty sure we can Spring->Dair safely quickly enough because of Luigi's slowness.

Also, be aware that some Luigis are going to use the Tornado when landing, so just keep your shield up for the entirety of the move's duration and you should be okay and able to punish it afterwards.

I think the Tornado eats the Spring as well, but I'm not entirely sure either.

On a side note, I think we should "compartmentalize" the MU discussion by adding a few sections to cover, such as: what stages are good/bad for the MU, what do do, what not to do, potential for custom move usage (this might be a thing in the future, so.. yeah), etc.

 

[Auroura]

I want to say it remains a true combo fairly high. I usually just hold down and pray for the best when I get caught in it. Though that usually works better for floaties and DIng to a corner has allowed me to live to like 180%+ against dthrow-->Tornado punch.

 

[Camalange]

The annoying thing about tornado is that it sort of has a vaccum effect, so if it as much as clips you it's pretty likely you're going tp get pulled in and get hit by the whole move. It's also good at punishing airdodge.

Example, if you try to airdodge after being Dthrown (pretty bad option regardless) they'll punish with tornado since it has slow start-up and multiple hits.

 

[kid craft 24/sonic master]

Luigi vs sonic basically comes down to baiting out luigi's options, and ensuring he can't find room to gain momentum. I usually powershield fireballs bait him to run in for a grab and toss out either jab, ftilt (to break out of grabs because tey don't have armor anymore) or grab myself (our grab range is better than luigi's). Sonic's most optical distance is within dash attack range (hust using the attack to measure distance in this case). at this range we can react to fireballs, and still mount our pressure game with spin attacks and run in short hop fairs.

our goal during the MU is push him to the end of the stage to ensure hehas little room to work with and considering our fair, dthrow and spin attacks can do that very well luigi can have a lot of trouble getting in on us. Though if luigi does get in and manages to get a grab your options after he dthrows you will determine whether he racks up a ton of %, ends your stock or whiffs.
at low % off dthrow i usually hold towards luigi so that i can only eat bair or one fair. higher % sonic would want to hold away and just eat the fairs. luigi can tornado us out of dthrow but only if they read our DI perfectly. if your holding away luigi needs to run in for the tornado which gives us time to potentially escape. try not to spring out of desperation as your basically asing him to wait for your landing with a upsmash or another grab.

If sonic forces the off stage game we can simply go deep with a spin attack jump and either eat the missile (depending on your % this migh not be a wise decision), or drop a spring forcing luigi to have to maneuver around it and due to his horrible air speed this usually forces him to eat the spring with missile or float and waste his double jump to get around it. Our spring eats tornado as does fair and bair. our spring can also interrupt luigi's up b as it doesn't gain invincibility until like frame 5 or so.

stages like lylat, BF, town and city are good for us because it allows us to fool luigi into trying to land on platforms to escape our juggles. Luigi's nair interrupts a lot of our follow-ups such as uthrow spring uair so using that as a KO option is usually not a good idea. As if he hits with air he can double jump tornado to KO us for attempting to uair him. Baiting out nair and tornado after you get luigi off the ground is key to maintaining control of luigi's momentum.

So long as you ensure to keep luigi airborne for as long as possible and force him to the ledge and from there offstage and harass him with springs and fair/bair offstage you should win. The MUs definitely in our favor but if we let luigi grab us continuously and abuse spin attacks recklessly luigi's going to shut us down quick.