Song of Time: Zelda's Changes in PM. 3.6 HYPE

[ObdurateMARio]

I think this change is the best thing for Zelda, and therefore for competitive play in the long term. In the short term, a minor change might have helped Zelda be better, but I think once people adapt to her changes, she will be a much more compatible character in relation to the rest of the PM cast.

 

[Deleted member]

IS THIS WHAT YOU CALLED GOOD PROGRESS, @Umbreon I HOPE YOURE HAPPY!

personally, i love the changes and i've been playing her more than any other character. she feels like a low tier surrounded by other low tiers since so much of the cast was nerfed, her previously poor MUs feel much better, everything feels consistent, and she even feels like a real smash character. it's amazing.

i didn't get all of my wish list, like i asked for her to be a bit heavier and maybe the upair nerf was a bit too much, but she doesnt get camped out as bad, doesn't die at stupid % from things like fox upsmash, grabs and upthrow got buffed, etc etc.

zelda is not balanced in a vacuum but in tandem with the rest of the cast. i would say this is a net win in terms of the character's viability while retaining zelda's classic game feel. quite happy.

we still need melee recolors other than pink. missing blue pretty hard.

edit: i agree with obduratemario completely. 10/10 nailed it.

 

[HanAmes]

Well I don't...because I've worked so hard in trying to perfect her play style for all of these months. Sure, people may be happy that she's more viable with PM than she was before, but in my opinion, she was viable to begin with, having such a unique move set as well as being fun to learn and developing new techniques. Now with all the changes, It's back to square one for me.

 

[jtm94]

None of the several months I put into Zelda feel like they went to waste. My movement is much better now and with her new speed I can land things that I would have to be perfect to punish.

I hate the change to down throw the most out of anything.

 

[Mr.Pickle]

Well I don't...because I've worked so hard in trying to perfect her play style for all of these months. Sure, people may be happy that she's more viable with PM than she was before, but in my opinion, she was viable to begin with, having such a unique move set as well as being fun to learn and developing new techniques. Now with all the changes, It's back to square one for me.

I wish I could unlike a post.

 

[HRR2b23]

So from some testing in training mode, it looks like you can use the Din's callback as an aerial stall, similar to Marth's, though not as drastic. It's small, but definitely there.

 

[Nabbitnator]

hmm that new din seems like a better combo tool in this game and a shield for Zelda. I also like how I can approach with it.

 

[Kaeldiar]

So from some testing in training mode, it looks like you can use the Din's callback as an aerial stall, similar to Marth's, though not as drastic. It's small, but definitely there.

On a similar note, casting Din's in the air makes you fastfall. New Din's will take time to learn. I'm sure it's useful, but I don't see the utility right off because my "vision" of Zelda doesn't mesh with 3.5 Zelda.

To clarify earlier statements. I am disappointed in the PMDT because of HOW they changed Zelda. I don't like the way she plays anymore. THAT BEING SAID, I don't like the way that Link plays in PM, even though I really liked him in 64 and Melee, and I also think that the changes made to Link made him a better, stronger, more well-rounded character.

As far as Zelda's viability goes, I imagine that she'll have no problem hanging with the rest of the cast. I don't think that she was nerfed down to nothing, but I think that they changed Zelda to play differently, rather than toning down or refining aspects of her game to balance her. I didn't like that they changed HOW Zelda plays.

I LIKED how Zelda played. I LIKED that she was annoying. I LIKED that it forced people to think. That's how she has always worked. Zelda punishes people who take unnecessary risks. Zelda takes advantage of poor DI and bad fundamentals. Zelda gets beaten when the other person plays SMART. Zelda isn't a puzzle to figure out. She has obvious, exploitable weaknesses. If you play to exploit those, you will win.

Anyway, that's my rant. I liked the old Zelda. I am not happy with the way the new Zelda plays. Other people ARE happy with the new Zelda, because it fits their playstyle more. That's awesome. I'm glad that people who play Zelda are finding the changes to their liking. I'd hate to drop Zelda, because I have loved playing Zelda in every Smash game, but it might be necessary for me.

 

[drsusredfish]

The pages weren't intended to be updated quite yet so there will be some inaccuracies. To clarify, it can be shortened when started from both ground and air now similar to spacies side-bs, and the ground to ground cancel is roughly the same lag as teledashing, while in the air it has a bit more landing lag but opens up ways to edge cancel off platforms with good timing. You can also snap onto platforms with the cancel while traveling upwards as well much like a waveland, so you can use it in the same ways as before for the most part, as well as some new things you can do with it, without being as strange as being able to airdodge out of it if you happened to start it on the ground. Coming from the guy who originally created the AD cancel I think it's a much cleaner implementation of it.

Since up b has a b-cancel do you think you can add a b-revers cancel like charizard has on glide?

I like that the b cancel keeps her momentum but it should also let you decided where that momentum goes after the teleport.

 

[Deleted member]

I LIKED how Zelda played. I LIKED that she was annoying. I LIKED that it forced people to think. That's how she has always worked. Zelda punishes people who take unnecessary risks. Zelda takes advantage of poor DI and bad fundamentals. Zelda gets beaten when the other person plays SMART. Zelda isn't a puzzle to figure out. She has obvious, exploitable weaknesses. If you play to exploit those, you will win.

I would say the exact opposite. 3.0 ish zelda punished base fundamentals harshly by playing very different from any prior smash character in the history of the franchise. The prior zelda punishes the opponent at the character select screen by creating horribly polarizing match-ups, and necessarily removes the thinking aspect of the game because camping her is always correct. It's perfectly valid to have a preference for one way or another, but her previous design is near indefensible when compared to the game at large. The new version has quite a lot going for her while still fitting into the bigger picture.

 

[drsusredfish]

I'm starting to get used to the new din but there are a couple of odd things with it.

as the din is returning to you if it hits the opponent you can't make it explode until its almost back to you. It should detonate when ever you press side b. of course there is a cool down time between each explosion but hitting the opponent with the traveling hitbox should not affect that.

The traveling proximity hit box doesn't refresh after a hit. I found a way to make the din spin around zelda infinitely ( or rather until its timer runs out.) I did this near the enemy in training mode expecting it to do alot of hits but it passes right through them after the first hit hits. On the plus side you can still detonante it multiple times while its spining but since the proximity hitbox is gone its not hard to just attack zelda.

Those first two may just be design choice by the pmdt but this next thing has to be a glitch.
If you press side b then mash b by itself she wil call back the din imediatly even though i'm not pressing side b. This is a problem because I'm trying to mash out nayru after din but this oddity won't let me.

The combination of these oddities are tearing down what could be a great move.

 

[HanAmes]

I'm in favor of having both her 3.02 and 3.5 Din's. Forward B for 3.02 Din's, and forward smash B for 3.5 Din's (like Samus's Super Missiles).

 

[Tweedle]

I'm in favor of having both her 3.02 and 3.5 Din's. Forward B for 3.02 Din's, and forward smash B for 3.5 Din's (like Samus's Super Missiles).

Lol yes please. Haha.
#missingthepointbutwantanyway

 

[4tlas]

So I don't get angry on forums or things like that because there is so much time to think about how to word things properly, and I have to reread people's posts to make sure I interpreted it correctly. I nearly never rant or post from emotion, and even now as I'm writing this I am slowly and deliberately choosing every word.

That being said, I am ****ING ANGRY! I have been playing with the new Din all day (in tournament, no less), and while I can see merits to the ability's use, I see no justification for the design or flavor decisions. (After writing this post, I realized it was a bad idea to start by suggesting that I am arguing out of emotion rather than logic. Please consider these points as they are, and not as a rant. I just wanted to let out some frustration while at it)

This new Din is even more of a camp move than the old ones, imo. It covers the space between you and the placement, but the slow ending placement makes it difficult to place far (on the other side of the opponent). As such, this move mostly covers the space between you and the opponent, making it only good for defensive play as it never threatens the opponent unless they move into it. Old dins may have encouraged and enabled setting up a wall, but that encouraged the other player to approach before she did so! The new one forces no interaction whatsoever, promoting camping on both sides. Furthermore, the opponent cannot choose to bypass it, as she can call it back at any time. And the slow ending placement makes it unusable as an offensive projectile. So why approach at all as an opponent? She can't threaten from far away and in fact can threaten everything between the players.

I have always felt Zelda is about outthinking the opponent. With very precise hitboxes and no mobility, but very strong hits as reward, Zelda's MO was applying force at exactly the right spot at precisely the right time, which (with no mobility) required thinking several steps ahead (or beyond) the opponent. Old Din played into this player archetype nicely. Very precise hitboxes that had to be placed intelligently and counterplayed carefully, with great rewards if you are ready to capitalize on them. New Din should theoretically do something similar, as timing/positioning your hitboxes to coordinate with the traveling Din would require cleverness. Unfortunately the rewards for hitting this Din (while traveling) are so subpar I can find no use for them. The hitstun seems negligible unless the opponent is over 150%, it is near impossible to coordinate the callback with your approach because of the combination of Zelda's non-mobility and the Din's new non-mobility, and the explosion seems to do next to nothing (7% damage instead of 4%?). The best way to time them together is to wait the 3 seconds for the auto-return and combine it with a teledash, which encourages camping far away for 3 seconds!

The loss of aerial Nayru's intangibility baffles me, as this move is now eerily similar to nair. The main difference now is momentum. The new teledash animation makes it difficult to turn around out of, which means the mixup of crossing the opponent is heavily nerfed. Perhaps this will just take getting used to. The loss of the Brawl sweetspot on Lightning Kick seems manageable, but also unnecessary.

Now I'm just playing buffed Melee Zelda. If I wanted to do that I'd go play Melee SD Remix.

 

[GodAtHand]

She has a lot issues right now that need to be fixed. I don't think she is bad per se, but they definitely made her drastically different. She can fast fall with her side B, which I think is a glitch. The screen following Din's seems to be hated by every single person I played with her. The new teleport cancel is awful and should probably never be used as a mixup except for occasionally when recovering. Also, the nerf to up-air was unecessary.

The din's still needs to be worked on. Once it starts to glow white even if someone hits it it should still explode. There is currently no reason to use side b to force an explosion while it is returning to Zelda becuase the animation takes too long for so little reward. The explosion needs to be either much stronger, or the animation needs to be a lot quicker, or a little of both. It would be nice if the orb would come back in straight line if you through it out straight currently the two options of upward oval or downward oval aren't enough.

I'm just upset that basically every Zelda main has to learn a new character...

But I guess I don't since smash 4 is coming out. =D

Edit: I forgot to mention the loss of lovejumping and diamon dropping which is just silly. After getting rid of arial intagibility on Nayru's it should have been left alone to see if that fixed the issues people where having with that room, but instead you just got rid of all Zelda's interesting movement options... and she's already slow...

 

[Blondie.]

I got a 0-death on didders yesterday. U-throw>usmash>fair>quick fireball that lands behind him while he's still in hitstun and bounces him back>fair. New zelda is way more fun and overall improved imo.

 

[ECHOnce]

For those of you who don't understand or don't have the time to break down what anything from the changelist means for us, I simplified it a bit via sorting things by how they were changed. afaik, Zelda has - by far - the most changes out of the roster, so it's important to look at the trends in changes in her moveset, rather than changes for individual moves, at least for normals.

Spoiler: Normals

NOTE: Green/Red bullets are simply to denote increases/decreases in values, and are not meant to imply whether the change is considered a buff/nerf; excepting the hitlag and SDI multipliers, which are reversed (I'm all sure we can agree with those being buffs/nerfs lol). Blue bullets denote either a change that includes both increased and decreased values, or a change in value that can't technically be considered an increase/decrease.

DAMAGE:
• U-Tilt (12->15 on early hit, 11->13 on late hit)
• D-Tilt (Damage 7/8 -> 10/11)
• U-Smash (Removed extra linking hit previously added to 2nd attack wave, which increased damage. Now 16 -> 15 damage)
• F-Air (Sweetspot damage 18(initial hit frame)/16(remaining hit window) -> 19/16)
• B-Air (Sweetspot damage 17/15 -> 18/15)
• Grab Pummel (Damage decreased from 4->3, but slightly faster)
• F-Throw (Damage decreased from 12->10)
• U-Throw (Damage decreased from 9-8)
• D-Throw (Damage decreased from 15-14)

ANGLE: (HIGHER/LOWER)
• Jab (Angle 55->361. 361 basically = 45 in Smash, for those who don't know)
• Dash Attack (Angle 78->88)
• F-Tilt (Tip angle 108->110 to match other upwards hitboxes)
• U-tilt (Late hit angle 92->85, begins when arm is around 1 o'clock position instead of behind)
• U-Air (Electric flub hitbox angle 85->75)
• U-Smash (Angle 90-88)
• F-Throw (Release point is closer and lower to combo better)

BASE KNOCKBACK:
• F-Tilt (Tip angle 108->110...BKB/KBG adjusted)
• U-Smash (BKB reduced slightly)
• U-Air (BKB 64-60)
• F-Throw (Release point is closer...to combo better. BKB 68 ->60)
• U-Throw (Damage decreased from 9-8, KB values compensated)
• D-Throw (Damage decreased from 15->14, KB values compensated)

KNOCKBACK GROWTH:
• F-Tilt (Tip angle 108->110...BKB/KBG adjusted)
• U-Tilt (Damage 12->15 on early hit, 11->13 on late hit, KBG compensated)
• D-Tilt (Damage 7/8 -> 10/11, KBG compensated)
• U-Smash (BKB reduced slightly, KBG increased to compensate)
• U-Air (KBG 75-100)
• F-Throw (Damage decreased from 12->10, KBG compensated)
• U-Throw (Damage decreased from 9-8, KB values compensated)
• D-Throw (Damage decreased from 15-14, KB values compensated)

WEIGHT DEPENDENT SET KNOCKBACK:
• N-Air (Landing hitbox vs grounded opponents WDSK 54-40 to induce a less erratic hitstun animation)

HITBOXES: (BIGGER/SMALLER) (ADDITION/REMOVAL)
• Jab (hitbox size slightly decreased on last hit)
• Dash Attack (Travels across a slightly larger area while the strong hit is out)
• D-Tilt (Simplified hitboxes to maintain same usage, but have less hitbox commands)
• U-Smash (Removed extra linking hit previously added to 2nd attack wave, which increased damage)
• D-Smash (Removed pointless fully overlapped hitbox on foot, front hit terminates one frame earlier to not connect on opponents behind you and preventing the stronger back hit from hitting, or sometimes double hitting)
• F-Air (Super sweetspot removed...Overlapping flub hitbox on leg moved to cover hip)
• B-Air (Super sweetspot removed...Overlapping flub hitbox on leg moved to cover hip)
• Standing Grab (Grabboxes cleaned up)
• Turn Grab (Hitboxes cleaned up)

FRAMES: (SHORTER/LONGER STARTUP+ENDLAG) (LONGER/SHORTER ACTIVE DURATION)
• Dash Attack (Late hit terminates 1 frame earlier when her arms are no longer in front)
• F-Tilt (Hitbox terminates one frame earlier to trim excessive lingering)
• U-Smash (Endlag reduced by 1 frame, to match Melee IASA)
• D-Smash (front hit terminates one frame earlier to not connect on opponents behind you and preventing the stronger back hit from hitting, or sometimes double hitting)
• Standing Grab (Grabs on Frame 8 from 9. Active for 2 frame from 3)
• Turn Grab (Grab duration reduced from 3->2 to match other turn grabs)
• Grab Pummel (Damage decreased from 4->3, but slightly faster)
• F-Throw (Endlag uses added IASA and less drastic FSM to look more natural)
• U-Throw (Releases a frame faster)

HITLAG MULTIPLIER: (DECREASE/INCREASE) (REMOVAL/ADDITION)
• F-Tilt (Hitlag/SDI modifiers now 1.0x)
• F-Smash (Hitlag multipliers 0x -> 0.7x)
• U-Air (Hitlag multiplier on early hitbox 0.6 -> 1.0)
• U-Taunt (Hitlag multiplier...0.25x -> 1.0x)
• S-Taunt (Hitlag multiplier...0.5x->1.0x)

SDI MULTIPLIERS: (DECREASE/INCREASE) (REMOVAL/ADDITION)
• Jab (SDI multiplier on final hit now 1.0x)
• F-Tilt (Hitlag/SDI modifiers now 1.0x)
• F-Smash (SDI multipliers 0x -> 0.25x)
• U-Smash (SDI multipliers (0.15, 0.2, 0.25) -> 0.25x)
• N-Air (SDI multipliers on outer hits 0.4x -> 0.5x)

Spoiler: Movement

WAVEDASHES/WAVELANDS:
• Airdodge and jumps' stage collision detection adjusted, improving wavelanding ability significantly.
• Airdodge vulnerability and enabling of gravity/fastfall/mobility begins 10 frames sooner to match Melee.
Those two things are pretty big deals. WD/WLs are noticeably longer, and from the sounds of it, the second point allows us to act out of WD/WLs sooner. So...that's bueno. Shorter airdodge invulnerability sucks but meh, who cares.

Spoiler: Specials

NEUTRAL-B (NAYRUS):
• Character momentum resets properly.
• Cleaned up hitboxes so being hit by the edges of last hit has reversible KB, but being hit within the outer edges still sends the way Zelda is facing.
• Grounded: Final hit angle 45/40 -> 361, BKB 55/50->50, KBG compensated. Startup reduced by 3 frames.
• Aerial: Intangibility removed. Angle 60/55 -> 55, BKB 50/45 -> 45, KBG compensated. SDI 0.5x->0.8 on linking hits. Land cancel occurs slightly later and startup reduced by 3 frames for same total time.
Oh...where to start. It got pooped on. First off all, it should be pointed out that the changelist has completely neglected to detail how tiny Nayrus' range has been made. Bullet 1 is a cop-out fancy way of telling us Love Jumps / Diamond Dives are gone. I need some hitbox .gifs to make sure I'm understanding Bullet 2 correctly, but from the sounds of it and from trying it out myself, the reversible KB is much harder to get now than in 3.02. Is it trying to say that only the very last hit on the outer edge has reversible KB? Bullets 3+4 are...meh. Just the usual minor buffs that don't mean much, and SDI multiplier nerfs. We lose aerial invulnerability, too. Not sure what the implications of the Land-cancelling changes will have though, but they feel about the same to me. On that note, with the removal of Love Jumps, land-cancelling Nayrus out of hitstun is a viable option against opponents following-up carelessly. There's no invulnerability anymore so it's not super safe, but from my experience so far, it puts opponents on the defensive worrying about it while I'm still at low %s. The removal of Love Jumps also means that Zelda can at least stall with Nayrus, although that's not very safe unless you're fairly high up. Overall, Nayrus remains a good follow-up, break-out-of-combos, bad-approach-punisher, and oos option, albeit now terrible for spacing and lacking in its former flexible range of functions. Read: still pretty ok on stage, no longer usable for god-tier recovery. I sorta understand the reasoning there I guess, just hurts a bit :x

SIDE-B (DINS):
• Proximity hitbox increased in size, does more damage to shields, damage increases with charge time, and initial uncharged size is larger. Time out explosion is slightly larger and does more damage. Startup reduced. Air IASA matches the faster ground IASA. When placing the Din's, it now begins fast and decelerates as it gets bigger.
• Amount of Din's active on screen at one time decreased 3->1. Camera now tracks the Din's Fire and keeps it on screen.
• While in play, performing Forward Special again will activate the Din's, causing a small explosion before heading on a return path back towards Zelda with a weak hitbox, and refreshing the hitbox if the Din's was already in motion. If the proximity hitbox hits, is shielded, or is clanked while stationary this will also cause it to return to her. The returning movement and turning peed is slower the more it is charged, with sufficient charge allowing for Zelda to avoid re-catching it immediately. If it does not reach Zelda after a few seconds, it will expire and disappear on its own without being re-caught.
• If Zelda is hit/grabbed while it is in motion, it will unlink from her and travel in a straight line, unless she reactivates it (While linked a flashing red GFX on her hand is present). It will also not track Zelda or be re-caught and travel straight ahead if Zelda is invisible or KOed. If left stationary for a few seconds it will self detonate with a much larger and powerful explosion.
Bullet 1 explains that the proximity hitbox (pre-explosion + stationary) is just better in general. Which may be the case, but it's much less threatening in this manner, given its just a single din by itself. The startup and air endlag reductions are obv. nice though. The timing and directional control for placing Dins is completely different; little vertical control, but much quicker horizontal speed at first (allowing for super quick, easy follow-ups after knocking them away). Because of this, placing Dins between yourself and a close opponent isn't really an option anymore, but you can still do so (and much more quickly) if they're further away, or put one behind them to zone / encourage further approaching. Bullet 2+3 are why Dins now come off as much more threatening. During their stationary and later mobile states, the now single, larger, more-quickly-placed Din is made more obvious by the camera influence. Now that they're more aware of it, opponents are more likely to pay more attention to avoiding Dins; take advantage of this if they approach you (after setting a Din behind them) by being careful to limit their escape options as you approach them, and punish any mistakes with Zelda stuff. You know...LKs, N-Air, U-Air, Nayrus, F-Tilt/U-Smash, etc. Bullet 4 isn't as bad as it sounds. If you get hit immediately after it starts following you, it'll leave its trajectory while it's still circling away from you...which sucks, but re-catching Dins is simply and can stall in the air to help recovery (opposite of when setting Dins, which gives her a ton of downward airborne momentum instead, reminiscent of Diamond Diving). The new Dins is amazing when placed past recovering opponents, too; I'm sure you've all tried it by now. Dins circle back downwards when withdrawn while level to Zelda, and circle back upwards if withdrawn while above. So Dins should be placed below stage level, just above the opponent if they're recovering low to catch them, or higher than Zelda, just below the opponent, if they're recovering high. It should also be noted that spamming the Din explosion on the return trip is great for stalling the Dins' travel and mixing up the timing against opponents that stay in shield or by the edge too much. Bigger+slower dins are obv. better for that stalling. So explode it once or twice while they have ledge invincibility on purpose, and then let it hit them once they get up as you go in with an LK/whatever after hit-confirm.

UP-B (FARORES):
• Airdodge interrupt out of ground only teleport removed, replaced with a B press to cancel/shorten movement during ground or aerial teleport that preserves sliding momentum and is able to snap onto platforms when passing upwards through them, similar to wavelanding.
• Ground to ground Farore cancel has shortest ending animation, comparable to airdodge landing lag. Ground startup hitbox changed from 95 BKB/0 KBG -> 95 WDSK.
• Aerial ending no longer halts vertical, allowing sliding up walls a bit after reappearing when teleporting upwards to edges. Aerial Farore FSM on ending removed, with air mobility when teleporting upwards through edges. Aerial Farore FSM on ending removed, with air mobility beginning later to increase commitment to her original travel direction. Land lag from reappearing in air increased from 20->30. KB of non-cancelled reappearance hit Angle 60->50, KBG 46->120, BKB 100->45.
Bullet 1 is where all the meat is. As others have mentioned, the new Teleshort B-cancel leaves Zelda with no momentum upon reappearance, so movements/actions out of teleshort are pretty much limited to standing actions, minus jump/dash. Even with standing options, she has a hefty bit more endlag more than she would out of Teledash's wavelands; on top of Teledash letting Zelda appear before opponents and waveland behind them for mindgame stuff, Teleshorts aren't nearly as safe. Cancel-able teleports that were started while airborne are great if recovering on stage from above, though. Stages with platforms by the edge are now much safer stage picks for Zelda, given her weakened recovery (no love jumps~...). Bullet 3 is something us Zeldas all noticed in 3.02 and prob wanted fixed, but tbh it has prob hurt us more than it helped. Leaving in the object collision going upwards really was only a bad thing if you didn't know to just return the control stick to neutral; it was more of just a game-design-completion-ist idea, so that Zelda scrubs & cpus wouldn't SD every time and not understand why. Now that the oject collision has been removed, sweetspotting from below the edge can sometimes be a huge pain in the arse, since she no longer snaps easily to the ledge and just goes straight over, until you get the Teleshort B-cancel timing down. It's really the only way to sweetspot, and at least for now, while I'm not 100% consistent with the timing...it seems pretty silly. If Zelda doesn't sweetspot edge and goes over, she'll just keep eating scrubby smash edgeguards. If she cuts the cancel teleshort too short, it's an instant SD. Even if you do get the timing down, since you're cancelling the teleport that has a hitbox on reapperance, it's super easy for the opponent to just edge hog. On a final note, the fact that horizontal momentum has been reduced for a short time after reappearance means Zelda can't simply wait to fall to the height at which she can sweetspot edge normally on Distant Planet with full-length teleport; now that the walls at the bottom curve outwards further than they do at the top, it'll push Zelda too far horizontally to effectively sweetspot the ledge using tele's full distance. She has to use the teleshort B-cancel on that stage now to sweetspot, if recovering from below, making it super easy for opponents to edgeguard her in a similar fashion to edgeguarding Sheik - steal ledge so she's forced to recover on to the stage, and then punish her hard during her (now longer) landing lag. If she chooses to go use the full length teleport distance (diagonally from below) instead, she'll probably eat a B-air/D-air from ledge if her opponent is any good.

 

[Lil Puddin]

I like the new Zelda now. She is much more offensive, and less campy. She also doesn't get destroyed by anyone who is faster than her now.

My gripe is how they changed Din's Fire. It should come back to you in a straight line. Traveling in that weird way does make it slightly easier to surprise an opponent with an explosion from below. On the other hand, it doesn't seem to immediately explode if you try to trigger it after it hit somebody. Fast falling during its usage seems like a mistake.

Her Uair nerf is understandable, but the move itself is very easy to avoid.

 

[BJN39]

I like the new Zelda now. She is much more offensive, and less campy. She also doesn't get destroyed by anyone who is faster than her now.

Eauxkay

Tell me.

TELL ME.

Which changes, exactly, that Zelda has received, make ANY of this true.

AFAICT, the new Din's is even more camping oriented, and FW changes make trying to use it for mobility less rewarding.

And with pretty much NO speed buffs, HOW, do fast chars suddenly do worse? That certainly isn't because of the changes ZELDA got.

 

[ObdurateMARio]

The reason Din's got nerfed is stupid simple. Here's how you play Zelda in 3.5.

1) run away
2) set up din's wall
3) sweetspot out of din's hitstun/use nayru's love if they manage to get through

This allows you to stupid easily win 70-80% of neutral game matchup.

Like I mentioned previously, every single Marth/Roy/Mario (my mains) - Zelda matchup went like this.

Zelda camps
I camp
Zelda Dins
I approach
from here, you either get 2ish clean hits before the combo ends due to her stupid floatiness and evasiveness, or you get Nayru'd

Zelda's old playstyle wasn't "smart" it was just bait. Zelda's bait and punish game was so good that the concept of her approaching was totally and thoroughly irrelevant, because you shouldn't ever, ever have done it. Obviously you could defeat Zelda pretty easy if you just controlled the space between her Din's and her lightning kick, but it was just a giant pain in the rear, and not fun at all.

Losing to Fox can still be fun
Losing to Marth can still be fun
Losing to C Falcon is always fun
Losing to Zelda is f'ing frustrating. When I play Zeldas in friendlies, I just sandbag, because trying isn't fun, even when you win. In my opinion, if you win a game and aren't enjoying it, it's a bad game design. That simple.

 

[GodAtHand]

Everything in the post above.

Good players beat Zelda all the time, with Fox, Math, and Cap to boot. You just sound super salty. Learn the matchup, and stop complaining when you get outplayed.

 

[4tlas]

I got a 0-death on didders yesterday. U-throw>usmash>fair>quick fireball that lands behind him while he's still in hitstun and bounces him back>fair. New zelda is way more fun and overall improved imo.

That worked just as well if not better before, I would say. I used this all the time, and the only things that have changed to affect this are that A) dins places faster if its close and B) Zelda lost supersweetspots. Before I would do this (placing Din at the proper distance took the same amount of time and offered me more hitstun afterward to reach the opponent again) and hit with a supersweetspot, killing even earlier. How is it improved, or more fun?

 

[Peeta]

I don't mind the new Zelda and I main her.

*shrug*

 

[TimeSmash]

Coming in to say a couple things.

I'm uploading the changelog to the OP as well as @ ECHOnce 's simplified version of it for easier discussion.

Also a reminder is that while Zelda's changes may not be agreeable with everyone, please keep it civil! No good will come from being harsh to others, and it wouldn't be great if this thread got locked.

I'd also love to contribute my thoughts on her changes as well, but I haven't played her that much yet. Since I'm more invested in theory and stuff, I feel like I can get a better grip on things when I use her more and then talk from there. Thanks!!

 

[Lil Puddin]

Eauxkay

Tell me.

TELL ME.

Which changes, exactly, that Zelda has received, make ANY of this true.

AFAICT, the new Din's is even more camping oriented, and FW changes make trying to use it for mobility less rewarding.

And with pretty much NO speed buffs, HOW, do fast chars suddenly do worse? That certainly isn't because of the changes ZELDA got.

The new side B is easier to use, thus making it better at offensive usage or at camping usage. It is simpler. I hate it still, but it DOES encourage offensive play AND it doesn't make her a sitting duck. Now she can't make a lazy triangle/wall of protection like in 3.02. Goooood. I'd rather have an instant projectile but... Eh.

Her sweetspots no longer have the hit delay. Why is this good? Because now it's harder to DI since the opponent doesn't have an extended time to react like before. It also allows Zelda to keep offensive momentum.

The falling rate makes her less vulnerable in the air. It also lets her "surprise" people with lightning kicks.

Her dashing feels less strenuous for her. I will miss Fwind teledashing, but that's fine. Without all those hit delays or slow falls, she feels more mobile than ever.

TLDR she is no longer a fast-player punching bag because she isn't as vulnerable. If you try to camp, you will probably be punished(3.5) instead of rewarded(3.02).

 

[flying_tortoise]

My perspective. What I think so far..

After playing a lot today, I'm actually liking the Tele-cancel now, yes you are not able to immediately act out of it, but with good timing it is somewhat close. But the more important thing is that if you are in the air, teleport to ground and cancel it with good timing you get rid of the end lag off a normal upB which has proves very useful.
Although it does suck that my muscle memory will try to teledash and so I will be stuck with the full Teleport lag, but it'll adapt sooner or later.

The back of nayru hitting people in the opposite direction is kind of annoying because it gets rid of a great string she was able to do, But it can help with edgeguarding if you didn't have enough time to turn around (not a great use but at some point we'll figure out a use for it).

The din. I like how it comes out fast, and I do believe it encourages more offense. A good strategy with it is to get the din behind the opponent for comboing into, or to hit the opponent from behind on its way back allowing for the disruption of the opponents strings. AS for the din not going straight back to you, if it were to do that it would be too easy to control and hit ur opponent. Meaning ur opponent would cry about it, just set it up at head level and it'll take care of that for the most part. I see no purpose of the multi exploding on the way back b/c its hard to time for now and doesn't really add that much dmg or knockback, but with time its use will come into play i guess.
To elaborate on why it encourages offense imo is b/c your opponent will have a din behind him which is going to make him want to get the hell away from it asap leaving him to run to you, so you gotta be ready for combat.

People can just put the din in front of them?
eh not really b/c the din is kind of hard to control in the beginning, you can't lift it vertically giving ppl the ability to jump over it, and the shield can take it out. Yes you can land it on the opponents sometimes but then as your waiting for the din to comeback the opponent will charge right at you.
Random= miss timed my zhime kill but still got opponent to hit the big din...and still got the kill off the top :l interesting?

plz Umbreon don't "like" this if you're reading, I am not trying to prove ur point that zelda is now better. I am accepting but am like the other zeldas that resent having to invest a lot more hours into a character I did not want changed in the first place.

I do wanna see a lot of ppl posting videos of themselves so that we can figure out other stuff we can do with the build. I don't want our character to be sucking b/c of the radical changes.

also @ Blondie. hey I haven't seen you post anything in forever, glad to see u posting something again. if ur staying gl with the 3.5 build

 

[4tlas]

The new side B is easier to use, thus making it better at offensive usage or at camping usage. It is simpler. I hate it still, but it DOES encourage offensive play AND it doesn't make her a sitting duck. Now she can't make a lazy triangle/wall of protection like in 3.02. Goooood. I'd rather have an instant projectile but... Eh.

Her sweetspots no longer have the hit delay. Why is this good? Because now it's harder to DI since the opponent doesn't have an extended time to react like before. It also allows Zelda to keep offensive momentum.

The falling rate makes her less vulnerable in the air. It also lets her "surprise" people with lightning kicks.

Her dashing feels less strenuous for her. I will miss Fwind teledashing, but that's fine. Without all those hit delays or slow falls, she feels more mobile than ever.

TLDR she is no longer a fast-player punching bag because she isn't as vulnerable. If you try to camp, you will probably be punished(3.5) instead of rewarded(3.02).

The Dins change may not allow her to set up a defensive wall, but it is certainly not an offensive projectile. It controls the space between you and it, and since it moves so slowly at far distances, the space between you and it will never include the opponent unless the opponent is being offensive. Therefore the opponent has no reason to be offensive. Old Din encouraged the opponent to be decisively offensive because otherwise she would set up a stupid wall as you suggest.

The super sweetspots had a DI multiplier of 0 if I remember correctly. They could have easily removed the hitlag if they wanted to, but instead they left it in (and I think they left in the DI multiplier from Brawl).

I don't feel like she falls any faster, and I don't think that would matter anyway, as she still has no mobility without teledash. I still don't see how she is more capably offensive in any way.

 

[Tweedle]

The new side B is easier to use, thus making it better at offensive usage or at camping usage. It is simpler. I hate it still, but it DOES encourage offensive play AND it doesn't make her a sitting duck. Now she can't make a lazy triangle/wall of protection like in 3.02. Goooood. I'd rather have an instant projectile but... Eh.

Her sweetspots no longer have the hit delay. Why is this good? Because now it's harder to DI since the opponent doesn't have an extended time to react like before. It also allows Zelda to keep offensive momentum.

The falling rate makes her less vulnerable in the air. It also lets her "surprise" people with lightning kicks.

Her dashing feels less strenuous for her. I will miss Fwind teledashing, but that's fine. Without all those hit delays or slow falls, she feels more mobile than ever.

TLDR she is no longer a fast-player punching bag because she isn't as vulnerable. If you try to camp, you will probably be punished(3.5) instead of rewarded(3.02).

How is it easier to use? It's not easier to use at all.

 

[Lil Puddin]

How is it easier to use? It's not easier to use at all.

It is for me. It is now a "lol surprise" attack. Albeit it is hardly lovable, but nicely spammable. It's an awesome combo extender and its only hindrance is it can't explode if it hits an enemy. Its return trajectory is pretty dumb too, since a straight line would allow for easier usage... On the other hand, the current way is good for mind games if you get used to it. (Ex: let it go under the stage out of sight)

The old mines were mindlessly easy to use, but were only used for zoning and annoying the opponent. Not annoying like "lol dis mind game gotchu twisted homie" but more in a "ew so boring and campy" way. People hardly used them offensively (because it too a ridiculous amount of skill to do so) and it over centralized Zelda's meta.

The new din is easier if you choose to be offensive. It is not easier if you choose to be super defensive or campy... In a fast paced fighting game.

IMO Zelda feels less stiff than before and I love it. The only thing I hate is no DownB attack and sideB is half of what it could be. But tweaks are gonna come eventually.

In the end - opinions!

 

[ObdurateMARio]

Good players beat Zelda all the time, with Fox, Math, and Cap to boot. You just sound super salty. Learn the matchup, and stop complaining when you get outplayed.

I'm not saying she was broken or OP. She wasn't. You're totally correct, she wasn't hard to beat. In fact, I would say that a much inferior player could beat a much superior Zelda, just by playing extremely, extremely patient. My point is that it isn't fun to play in the fashion that was required to beat Zelda. My roommate pockets Zelda, and if I chose to play her super patiently, it was downright easy to win, but that's not my point. Reread my post. The fundamental flaw with 3.02 Zelda is that she wasn't fun. This is a videogame. It's supposed to be fun. When I die, I want it to be to a sweet combo. If I lose (which happens, I'm not really a salty about losing kind of person) I want to be able to learn something from the other player. All playing against Zelda teaches is to camp/be patient. Important fundamentals, but 3.02 was mostly a one-trick pony. Once a player learned how to control her awkward space between lightning kick and Din's, she was over. Not a fun character, due to her inherent design, which warranted a redesign. I honestly think her skill ceiling is much higher now. But if people want to be salty because "BUT MUH DIN'S WALL AND MUH LOVEJUMPS" then whatever. I don't play Zelda, and I think she was actually pretty poor in terms of her ability in relation to the rest of the cast. She was a noobslayer, no more, no less. Now she has a chance to actually make a case for being in "upper tiers", once some metagame gets down.

 

[Deleted member]

plz Umbreon don't "like" this if you're reading, I am not trying to prove ur point that zelda is now better. I am accepting but am like the other zeldas that resent having to invest a lot more hours into a character I did not want changed in the first place.

the non-zelda players love the new zelda, a lot of the dedicated zelda players like her as far as i can tell, and she doesnt hard fold to all of her weak points like she used to. what's not to "like" about that? you liked playing a character with a linear and flawed design? you liked going into a bracket knowing that no one wanted to play you? you enjoyed playing long boring games void of interaction? new zelda is fun, engaging, flexible, and perhaps more importantly a real smash character. we all knew she was getting totally revamped almost a year ago when i told the entire skype group about it, it's not like no one saw it coming.

most of the cast had their characters nerfed to the point where you almost have to relearn them if you were any good of a player. just like diddy, pit, mario, lucas, mewtwo, not too many of those players wanted their characters changed. don't play the victim card here. when it comes down to players repping 1 character vs the other 40 hating yours, you are horribly out-voted.

 

[flying_tortoise]

the non-zelda players love the new zelda, a lot of the dedicated zelda players like her as far as i can tell, and she doesnt hard fold to all of her weak points like she used to. what's not to "like" about that? you liked playing a character with a linear and flawed design? you liked going into a bracket knowing that no one wanted to play you? you enjoyed playing long boring games void of interaction? new zelda is fun, engaging, flexible, and perhaps more importantly a real smash character. we all knew she was getting totally revamped almost a year ago when i told the entire skype group about it, it's not like no one saw it coming.

most of the cast had their characters nerfed to the point where you almost have to relearn them if you were any good of a player. just like diddy, pit, mario, lucas, mewtwo, not too many of those players wanted their characters changed. don't play the victim card here. when it comes down to players repping 1 character vs the other 40 hating yours, you are horribly out-voted.

I'm not arguing with you, but obviously I'm not going to like the process. That is all.

edit: as to why i pointed you out tbh was b/c when you argue for the new zelda, it is almost like rubbing salt in the wounds because the changes have already happened (this is for those who don't like the changes). I do understand you are giving an explanation for the changes, but right now a lot of people need some time to accept the new things that have changed of zelda.

 

[Lil Puddin]

Umbreon totes hit the nail on the head. The nerfs to teledash and critical Lkicks were the only hurtful nerfs to her AGGRESSIVE play in the long run. But that is for the best, because, you know, fairness. Teledash is too good. Crit Lkick is just so ridiculous and having two sweetspots in the same area, although different, is redundant. She has been buffed indirectly and somewhat directly. She is a viable Melee Zeldoo now. Offense that requires accuracy > lazy/lame/annoying but necessary zoning (imo).

I still dislike her new Din, but I like it way more than her old one. I wish it were like a boomerang that could explode instead so she isn't tied down to one spot. The control is nice, but it is a double edged sword. Except the side that hits Zelda happens to be serrated. On they plus side it acts as low free damage after you sent someone far away. The explosion seems irrelevant now considering that it is much harder to land, and seems to have a weird quirk when returning after hitting a target. They may as well just make it a projectile that doesn't require the dedication or babysitting.

 

['V']

I don't like the new Zelda at all, and I've been playing her since Melee.

I feel that the C.Falcon matchup just got even harder.

 

[4tlas]

Everyone that I've met who hates playing against Zelda hates it for one of two reasons: 1) they're bad at it or 2) they don't want to have to think when playing Smash.

Zelda is still a noobslayer, that didn't change. Her base Melee kit is about outplaying the opponent mentally with precision and prediction, with huge rewards for doing so, but at the cost of being unable to change the game state without the opponent making a move first. It inherently discourages interaction, because if the opponent takes no action, Zelda cannot take action herself. Noobs do not understand this and make many mistakes, all of which Zelda punishes hard. Making her more like melee Zelda will not encourage interaction. Fortunately we still have some sort of teledash, but it is not quite good enough anymore.

The old Dins did 2 important things. 1) it allowed her to set up a defensive camp given time and space, which encouraged the opponent to act before she could do so, and 2) it allowed her to exert control over parts of the field without being there physically, so she could retain her low-mobility playstyle. The second one is far more important than the first, as giving her no defensive options but good offensive ones would also have encouraged interaction. Teledash was a good offensive option, so reducing the number of Dins to 2 or even 1 would make the camping ineffective.

The new Din doesnt do either of these. The return of the Din is easily shielded or dodged and doesnt do much even if it hits. It also only covers space near her due to difficulty of placing them far away. Since it is not usable offensively (it is in one case, but it is niche and predictable as far as I can tell), the opponent has no reason whatsoever to approach Zelda. So now she has to approach the opponent. This would be fine if new Din didn't move slowly at long distances, go away upon shield, or had noticeable stun/damage. Alternatively if Zelda still had Teledash she could approach, but the new one is just barely too laggy and doesnt allow for as many mixups (well it allows for new approaches from the air, but the mixup occurs after she has disappeared, so original position doesn't matter). Another alternative would be to use land-cancelled nayrus, but the invuln is gone and the land-cancel has very restrictive, and thus predictable, timing.

I don't care if Zelda is the worst character in the game. I don't care if she is made so ineffective that I lose every match I play with her, and opponents don't have to hate her because they don't lose and don't have to think. I want to have tools that make me think. Tools with the possibility to make plays. Tools that are fun to use. I was never able to teledash well before, so the new teledash is fun for me. New dins doesn't feel like a tool at all, similar to how melee din felt. It doesnt do much when it hits, its frustratingly clunky to control, and I certainly don't see how it is any less frustrating for my opponent. Already played a tournament with it, and nobody liked her better. In fact, they were more frustrated by the new Dins due to camera shenanigans, and the fact that they couldnt clank the mine, and that the Din went through the stage.

I always enjoyed playing as and against Zelda. I understand the desire to make her fun to play against for most people. This will certainly make most people happier about Zelda, because soon they won't have to do it as often. Perhaps the concept behind the changes is sound. This implementation is not.

 

[Loli Bacon]

I'm not saying she was broken or OP. She wasn't. You're totally correct, she wasn't hard to beat. In fact, I would say that a much inferior player could beat a much superior Zelda, just by playing extremely, extremely patient. My point is that it isn't fun to play in the fashion that was required to beat Zelda. My roommate pockets Zelda, and if I chose to play her super patiently, it was downright easy to win, but that's not my point. Reread my post. The fundamental flaw with 3.02 Zelda is that she wasn't fun. This is a videogame. It's supposed to be fun. When I die, I want it to be to a sweet combo. If I lose (which happens, I'm not really a salty about losing kind of person) I want to be able to learn something from the other player. All playing against Zelda teaches is to camp/be patient. Important fundamentals, but 3.02 was mostly a one-trick pony. Once a player learned how to control her awkward space between lightning kick and Din's, she was over. Not a fun character, due to her inherent design, which warranted a redesign. I honestly think her skill ceiling is much higher now. But if people want to be salty because "BUT MUH DIN'S WALL AND MUH LOVEJUMPS" then whatever. I don't play Zelda, and I think she was actually pretty poor in terms of her ability in relation to the rest of the cast. She was a noobslayer, no more, no less. Now she has a chance to actually make a case for being in "upper tiers", once some metagame gets down.

This logic is so flawed, I'm not even going to bother with it.

In regards to Umbreon: your logic is also flawed. You're saying she didn't play like a smash character. That's false. She is a smash character, so therefore she plays like one. What you mean to say is that her playstyle is different from every other character. This I would call uniqueness. She was a unique playstyle, both to fight against and to play. In no way are these changes to remove her unique playstyle a good thing or a bad thing inherently but you shouldn't say things to imply that these changes were necessary and warranted.

I have no opinion one way or the other about her changes currently since I haven't played them, but it seems like she was heavily changed, and a lot of those changes happened to completely white wash her playstyle.

 

[Deleted member]

you're right

 

[Arcalyth]

@Umbreon what is a "real smash character?" What a load of garbage.

@ flying_tortoise "To elaborate on why it encourages offense imo is b/c your opponent will have a din behind him which is going to make him want to get the hell away from it asap leaving him to run to you, so you gotta be ready for combat."

Old dins did exactly that except it had usable hitboxes, could be placed at more than one range, and could set up for kills. New dins gives very little reward on hit and very little reward for successfully trapping the opponent into the explosion. I don't understand how new dins makes a more aggressive zelda when she stI'll has to run away to place them. People also seem completely unaware that they can clank out old dins and that it has enough startup that it can't be used in neutral or at a disadvantage. Nobody bothered to try to punish it.

On top of that, not being able to waveland eliminated many of her aggressive options out of teleport, it's not worth teleporting toward an opponent now. Her mobility is too poor to outmaneuver anybody at mid range and closer. At least Mewtwo can attack out of his teleport.

For all the characters who changed, not a single one was completely redesigned, and no character who has changed in the history of project m had such drastic changes more than one version later. 2.0 to 3.5 is 6 major revisions where zelda has had th e same design, just slight tweaks. Then in 3.5, a "gold" release in a way, they're going to just completely change her? If it was going to happen it should have happened in 2.5 or 3.0.

I'm not even trying to insinuate that she didn't need to be changed. But the way it happened is just dumb, it seems like not much thought went into the bigger changes but i can clearly see the Polish on the rest of her kit. She comobs better overall now, that adds to aggression , I like it.

Most zelda mains on the boards don't like the changes. Who are you even talking to, umbreon?

 

[ObdurateMARio]

All I'm saying is, ask anyone who doesn't main Zelda how they felt about 3.5 Zelda, and I guarantee you, the majority of players won't have positive feelings towards her. Around here, anyone that picks Zelda is instantly subject to various insults about their character (I'm putting this politely). But Loli Bacon, my logic is flawed? Because I think this game should be fun? Let me put this simply.

I'm obviously not the only one who thinks Zelda in 3.02 was obnoxious. If you want to keep playing her, keep playing 3.02. Everyone else will learn how to play her in a more aggressive, combo-oriented, "Smash-y" way. If you're really going to sit in the corner all salty and say "Wow PMBR you took away my ability to play a character that I liked even though a silent majority of the community thought was annoying, how DARE you??" then I have no sympathy for you. Zelda received good buffs. More than my mains got. Why don't you learn how to apply them instead of Johning?

 

[Deleted member]

@Umbreon what is a "real smash character?" What a load of garbage.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_know_it_when_I_see_it

I'm not into semantics.