Smash Wii U So yeah. I'm not impressed by Smash Wii U. What do you think?

[Ulevo]

At it's core, I'm seeing similar problems to what Brawl has had. Of course, all the glaring bugs and balance problems plaguing Brawl are not evident; we'll have to wait for that upon release to see how clean the game is. But the obvious stuff was there. Auto cling ledges are still there. No dash cancelling, meaning limited approach options out of a run. Is there hit stun? I'm not sure. I saw characters get out of combo scenarios that looked like they should be guaranteed, especially in the Grand Finals. And even if there is hit stun, it looks irrelevant. Because there's no L-Cancelling (or for those of you who dislike L-Cancelling, reduced landing lag on characters) and hitlag on moves lasts for too long, characters appear to have very limited combo opportunities. People forget that it wasn't the hit stun in Melee that made combos possible. It was the speed that the game ran at that allowed you to follow up during the stun.

I'm going to Best Buy tomorrow to try it for myself, and I plan on confirming what certain mechanics have been brought back or neglected, but thus far I'm not seeing a significant improvement in terms of core mechanics.

 

[MrsAccount]

It looks fun.

 

[HRR2b23]

I don't know about you, but I saw a lot of follow up opportunities on auto cancelled attacks, as well as the hitstun overall being...present. No, it doesn't have L cancelling, but to be honest that was never coming back anyways. I think the game looked good, and most importantly, it looked fun to play. I have no qualms with the direction this game has gone.

 

[Cap'nChreest]

This seems to be the case.

Grand finals, which in and of itself wasn't that special, but was the only uninterrupted match, went to time because basically none of the two characters (Kirby and ZSS) had any follow up to the moves they were doing. No combos.

Honestly though Kirby's range seemed to be heavily nerfed. Zero Suit Samus seemed to do just fine to me. Those aren't characters I would expect combos from too much anyways. Fox had some pretty interesting stuff that could've worked if it hadn't been for the hazards (lol). All is not lost. The top 6 characters will have all the combos the competitive scene needs imo.

 

[HeroMystic]

I noticed Hit Decay is less apparent, unlike in Brawl where your move staled immediately. Also agreeing with @ Cap'nChreest with hitstun being present.

However, I also agree with Ulevo that I'm getting major Brawl vibes coming from the Grand Finals where defensive play wins out against offensive play, unless Kirby vs ZSS is heavily favored for ZSS, and that's far too soon to tell.

 

[Ulevo]

Honestly though Kirby's range seemed to be heavily nerfed. Zero Suit Samus seemed to do just fine to me. Those aren't characters I would expect combos from too much anyways. Fox had some pretty interesting stuff that could've worked if it hadn't been for the hazards (lol). All is not lost. The top 6 characters will have all the combos the competitive scene needs imo.

From what I saw, Kirby had no combos. None. The only opportunities he had were from throws, which all had base knock back too high to follow up. He down threw ZSS at like 10% and she went a mile away. ZSS could only combo from what, down smash? A move known to combo in to itself anyway? Zero tried to downthrow to uair hungrybox at a relatively low % and couldn't land the follow up. Fox appeared to have some combos stemming off of uair chains.

 

[RascalTheCharizard]

I saw some good combos from PP's Fox utilising Utilt and aerials as well as some nice stuff from PewPew's Mario. I'd say the game leans more to Brawl than Melee based on what I've seen but there isn't anything "bad" or "broken" to me. Once I start seeing people chain throw Pikachu's Dthrow on Wolf to 100% and get an Up Smash out of it will I call "foul". If Smash 4 doesn't take much from Melee that's fine by me, as long as it makes me feel like I wasn't wrong to believe it has potential.

TL;DR - I'll buy it.

 

[Luigi player]

It's like Brawl but (probably) better and newer. Everyone who liked Brawl should like this one as well.

Any hardcore Melee fans might be disappointed, but nobody should've thought it will be like Melee in the first place, after seeing the reveal trailer at last years E3 and everything inbetween, because it was really obvious it would be more like Brawl.

It will be a great game I'm sure, just like every Smash Bros. :')

 

[Ulevo]

I noticed Hit Decay is less apparent, unlike in Brawl where your move staled immediately. Also agreeing with @ Cap'nChreest with hitstun being present.

Ah, yes, that's another thing I wanted to note. I'm pretty sure decay is just as prevalent as ever. I mean, you think it isn't, I think it is. We can't confirm until we test. But I saw Zero having problems knocking people out with side B because he was overusing it.

 

[Sol0ke]

Have you forgotten that it's a Brawl player vs a Melee only player

 

[Spinosaurus]

I think it's a bit too early to judge. But you'll be able to get your hands on the game tomorrow, so you'll have better judgement from then.

So far, I'm not liking the defensive play that happened in the grand finals, but it looked like it was match up specific thing. I don't really think we saw any of the potential of the characters, even PPMD didn't do much with Fox. (No blasters?)

 

[Cap'nChreest]

From what I saw, Kirby had no combos. None. The only opportunities he had were from throws, which all had base knock back too high to follow up. He down threw ZSS at like 10% and she went a mile away. ZSS could only combo from what, down smash? A move known to combo in to itself anyway? Zero tried to downthrow to uair hungrybox at a relatively low % and couldn't land the follow up. Fox appeared to have some combos stemming off of uair chains.

Yea I agree with you but its too early to say that this game doesn't have potential. Theres a lot of things within the meta-game that have yet to be developed. Moves that follow up with certain moves have yet to be discovered. But hey I'm getting it anyways. Theres still a chance that a lot could change. The E-for all demo of Brawl resembled Melee a lot. It should be expected that this Smash 4 demo resembles Brawl a bit. I still think that theres potential with this game. I hope those 16 players talked to Sakurai about the game and their complaints. That's basically our only hope for a combo centric smash at this point.

 

[Bread-Butterer]

Looks pretty Brawlish (****ty) to me. Though not quite that bad... Was seriously disheartened to see that dashing is still nerfed. Why is a lack of mobility desirable? I could live with no l-cancelling, but a stiff dash game is a tough pill to swallow.

 

[HRR2b23]

I noticed Hit Decay is less apparent, unlike in Brawl where your move staled immediately. Also agreeing with @ Cap'nChreest with hitstun being present.

However, I also agree with Ulevo that I'm getting major Brawl vibes coming from the Grand Finals where defensive play wins out against offensive play, unless Kirby vs ZSS is heavily favored for ZSS, and that's far too soon to tell.

^This

The way I saw it, Kirby had no way to approach with ZSS throwing that whip around every time he got close. I just think that was a bad matchup for HBox, and also keep in mind that HBox is already one to play campy, so that caused that defensive final.

 

[Ulevo]

Have you forgotten that it's a Brawl player vs a Melee only player

I don't think that would matter. I don't know anything about the ZSS player, but Hungrybox is smart enough to have exploited things if he had the options available to him in the limited time he had to play. I mean unless he was just sandbagging.

Yea I agree with you but its too early to say that this game doesn't have potential. Theres a lot of things within the meta-game that have yet to be developed. Moves that follow up with certain moves have yet to be discovered. But hey I'm getting it anyways. Theres still a chance that a lot could change. The E-for all demo of Brawl resembled Melee a lot. It should be expected that this Smash 4 demo resembles Brawl a bit. I still think that theres potential with this game. I hope those 16 players talked to Sakurai about the game and their complaints. That's basically our only hope for a combo centric smash at this point.

The Brawl demo resembled Melee because it actually played like Melee. They had motive to change it in favor of making it play like Brawl. I don't see their motive to changing anything in terms of mechanics, just things like bug fixes.

 

[rawrimamonster]

I kinda noticed some similar things. Hitstun is there but what use is it if the attacks send the opponent too far away to do anything to follow? I'm reallllly wary about this right now, I hope Sakurai and team realize whats going to happen if this game turns out to be a mockery of competitive play.

 

[1MachGO]

To be fair, Kirby had pretty poor combo ability in Melee. The hitstun generally looked improved.

However, there is still auto sweetspotting which is honestly one of my least favorite attributes from Brawl; its the reason why a match that would have probably taken 3.5 minutes in melee wasn't even able to finish in 8.

Smash 4 does look faster than Brawl, but it should honestly be played with 2 stock matches; I can't see it being a spectator sport with more than that.

 

[HeroMystic]

It's like Brawl but (probably) better and newer. Everyone who liked Brawl should like this one as well.

Any hardcore Melee fans might be disappointed, but nobody should've thought it will be like Melee in the first place, after seeing the reveal trailer at last years E3 and everything inbetween, because it was really obvious it would be more like Brawl.

It will be a great game I'm sure, just like every Smash Bros. :')

Personally, my complaint isn't that it lacks Melee qualities but rather there was an extreme advantage to defensive play that was shown from ZSS against Kirby, and Kirby just couldn't get in. This is an issue for me as I prefer a balance between offensive and defensive styles, and Brawl is way too defensive for my taste, which is the main reason why I dropped it competitively.

Ah, yes, that's another thing I wanted to note. I'm pretty sure decay is just as prevalent as ever. I mean, you think it isn't, I think it is. We can't confirm until we test. But I saw Zero having problems knocking people out with side B because he was overusing it.

I would call foul if Zero's Side-B wasn't decayed by that point. It was the most used move throughout that entire match.

In Brawl, decay kicked in on the very first hit and it went downhill from there. The evidence I've seen that contradicts this for Smash 4 is Fox's U-Smash against Villager, which he used three times in attempt to KO and he managed to get it the third time.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Here is what we know is in there,

Old Melee

L-Cancel – doesn’t seem to be in
Wavedashing – Definitely no
Shield Drop – Yes
Short Hop – Yes

Old Brawl Techniques
Run–> Turnaround is doable
DACUS – No one could do it
Glide tossing – None
Laser Lock – similar to Falco Laser lock, We managed it with Pikachu

Edge Mechanics
- Invulnerability depends on a combination of:
o %
o Air Time
o Distance recovered
- No Edgehogging
o If you hold ledge, and someone else wants it after, you get kicked off
 After kickoff, lag before you can do an action
- Brawl Ledge grab -> Run, turnaround grab ledge
- Ledge regrab doesn’t give invulnerability
- Run off stage  somersault/tumble motion XX(cancellable) into action
- Run off stage  grab edge in tumble (only certain characters)

Throwing
- Delay after throwing someone. Really hard to follow up
- No grab release infinites
- Mashing is doable *Unconfirmed*

Dashing
- Dash dancing is impossible
- Crouching to cancel dashing is impossible
- Pivot tilts are easy. Foxtrot is possible (F-Smash out of fox trot).
- Pivot F-smash is also doable
- Dashing is really questionable in this game
- U-Smash out of dash really easy (Flick C-stick)
- Standing grab out of full dash (shield+A, or shield + up cstick)

Spike
- Really Strong,

Crouch Cancel
- None

Shields
- No lightshielding
- Tilt shield is available

Out of Shield
- U-Smash out of shield very doable (Tested with Fox, same input as Melee)
- Shield grab available

Spot Dodge
- Really solid option

Air Dodge
- Multiple in one jump
- Air dodge  land = massive lag
Meteor Cancel
- Meteor cancel is available, seems difficult to execute (TV lag?)
Techs
- Buffer wall techs
DI
- Smash DI is not in (Tested with smart bombs) or significantly less than Melee? More testing needed
- DI is somewhat noticeable

Camera
- Doesn’t scale that well with people on edges/off-stage very well
-

Controls
- ¬Charge C-Stick smash attack charges

 

[[TSON]]

ok lets see here

Auto cling ledges are still there.

they are WAAAAAAAAAY toned down. link would have made a lot of the recoveries from before.

No dash cancelling, meaning limited approach options out of a run.

this does not a bad game make??? you can already do plenty out of run...

Is there hit stun? I'm not sure. I saw characters get out of combo scenarios that looked like they should be guaranteed, especially in the Grand Finals.

there very very very obviously is a good amount of hitstun. no, you can't combo 0-to-death, but there are a lot of combos. Fox even has utilt -> utilt. kirby did a lot of weaving combos too. it's a step in the right direction, and i'm sure with more practice we'll start seeing cooler combos.

And even if there is hit stun, it looks irrelevant. Because there's no L-Cancelling (or for those of you who dislike L-Cancelling, reduced landing lag on characters) and hitlag on moves lasts for too long, characters appear to have very limited combo opportunities. People forget that it wasn't the hit stun in Melee that made combos possible. It was the speed that the game ran at that allowed you to follow up during the stun.

landing lag is WAY less than Brawl. rosalina was able to do uair -> grab, which is a good sign. with more practice we will see better combos. you're forgetting this was with a couple days of practice and no community to help them discover stuff. gravity is WAY higher too, which will help.
also hitlag has nothing to do with combos really if anything more hitlag should help with combos because it makes response time less of a strain. when you hit with an attack you have more time to think/press what you want to do next.

go back and watch pew's mario and tell me this game doesn't have combos omfg

I'm going to Best Buy tomorrow to try it for myself, and I plan on confirming what certain mechanics have been brought back or neglected, but thus far I'm not seeing a significant improvement in terms of core mechanics.

this reminds me, someone needs to test DACUS.

 

[Gazdakka Gizbang]

It felt like the boundaries on the ends of the stages have been expanded a

Here is what we know is in there,

Edge Mechanics
- Invulnerability depends on a combination of:
o %
o Air Time
o Distance recovered
- No Edgehogging
o If you hold ledge, and someone else wants it after, you get kicked off
 After kickoff, lag before you can do an action
-

So edgeguarding is out?

 

[Gameboi834]

Because when I think fast approaches and combos

I think Kirby. /logic

 

[Bread-Butterer]

Dashing
- Dash dancing is impossible
- Crouching to cancel dashing is impossible
- Pivot tilts are easy. Foxtrot is possible (F-Smash out of fox trot).
- Pivot F-smash is also doable
- Dashing is really questionable in this game
- U-Smash out of dash really easy (Flick C-stick)
- Standing grab out of full dash (shield+A, or shield + up cstick)

Aha... of course. Well, I'll be skipping this game.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

It felt like the boundaries on the ends of the stages have been expanded a


So edgeguarding is out?

You can still edgeguard just hogging the ledge no longer works, people will knock you off if someone else wants to grab it and your not invisible.

Planking is also 110% killed, jumping down and regrabbing the ledge doesn't give you invisibility.

 

[Cap'nChreest]

Because when I think fast approaches and combos

I think Kirby. /logic

Its possible for Kirby to be a good character. No need to be rude and start crap.

 

[slicesabre]

Anyone complaining about that ZSS vs. Kirby match clearly has no idea how Kirby works.

Kirby has NEVER been a combo character, nearly every single one of Kirby's attacks he could have used to get in on ZSS is punishable., (notice how badly he was getting punished after using the hammer), it was a terrible match-up. ZSS clearly seems to have a massive advantage over Kirby with he solid mid-range game. Kirby was completely unable to get close because Kirby is not a fast character nor does he have any kind of safe approach.

 

[[TSON]]

basically to say it in short

if u go in expecting melee 2 this will look like an awful game bc its not trying to be melee 2
if u go in expecting middle ground they did fantastic and u will have a lot of fun

we have:
- combos
- high, nearly melee levels of gravity
- manageable landing lag
- ledges that are forgiving but not too forgiving
- lots of options
- decent??? balance???
- fastish gameplay
- smash bros
- more boobs

we dont have:
- l-canceling
- wavedashing

...this game is **** it will always be **** IM PLAYING MELEE

 

[Gameboi834]

Its possible for Kirby to be a good character. No need to be rude and start crap.

I was neither being rude nor starting crap. You took my message the wrong way and put false intentions to my actions.

People were judging the pacing and overall speed of the game based on the last match. Kirby is not nearly as agile was ZSS; that's not being rude. That's just a fact, he's known for being a puffball and he is less agile. So basing one's conceptions of the characters' agility on Kirby is ludicrous.

@ slicesabre put it nicely.

 

[RascalTheCharizard]

we have:
- high, nearly melee levels of gravity

I feel it's important to note that when some guys compared Fox's fallspeeds in Sm4sh, Brawl and Melee, Fox's fallspeed was almost exactly halfway between the two (I even ran the numbers because I'm a nerd like that), so no it's not "nearly X levels" as it is hardly closer to either of them. It's stuff like this that really makes me feel the Smash 4 will be its own beast entirely.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Its possible for Kirby to be a good character. No need to be rude and start crap.

What he is saying is the character being known for speed, Kirby is not.

Combo potential can be there but again, Kirby rarely has lengthy multi hit combos, even in Brawl it only worked on fast fallers to take them from 0 - 48 with Fthrow>uair chains into a Fsmash.

 

[FlynnCL]

There was clearly quite a bit of hitstun, and people have said it's non-cancelable after playing it.

Hitstun in all the Smash games is directly scaled with knockback, but I need to be honest and say that Smash 4 clearly has a lot to fine-tune, because its knockback and knockback scaling was everywhere. It either too high so you couldn't even follow up (Kirby down throw at 0% set up nothing) or too low with little hitstun (low % juggles).

 

[Cap'nChreest]

I was neither being rude nor starting crap. You took my message the wrong way and put false intentions to my actions.

People were judging the pacing and overall speed of the game based on the last match. Kirby is not nearly as agile was ZSS; that's not being rude. That's just a fact, he's known for being a puffball and he is less agile. So basing one's conceptions of the characters' agility on Kirby is ludicrous.

I see your point.

I think the main complaint that @ Ulevo had was that there weren't any decent combos in the game.

 

[1MachGO]

I originally felt it was poor showmanship, but I am actually glad that Zero camped out Hbox on stage in front of 165,000+ people because at least I KNOW Sakurai saw it. Hopefully he'll go back to the dev studio and reconsider giving characters like ZSS an abundance of safe and abusable mobility/spacing tools that encourage camping and non-engagement.

 

[Gazdakka Gizbang]

Won't really know anything until I try it tomorrow. Probably going to buy it as it looks better than Brawl in functionality, but I'm thoroughly addicted to watching Project M so I'm getting that too at first opportunity.

 

[TL?]

Anyone complaining about that ZSS vs. Kirby match clearly has no idea how Kirby works.

Kirby has NEVER been a combo character, nearly every single one of Kirby's attacks he could have used to get in on ZSS is punishable., (notice how badly he was getting punished after using the hammer), it was a terrible match-up. ZSS clearly seems to have a massive advantage over Kirby with he solid mid-range game. Kirby was completely unable to get close because Kirby is not a fast character nor does he have any kind of safe approach.

Never? Have you played 64?

 

[Cap'nChreest]

Forget this crap. Pac-man was just announced. Best game ever. Who cares about combos and 1v1's.

Mario vs. Megaman vs. Sonic vs. Pac-man. Lets go.

 

[Gazdakka Gizbang]

Looks like the Gematsu leak is real. Show's over, boys, we know em' all...

 

[slicesabre]

I also think another thing people are forgetting is that this is a demo for a game not coming out till year end. Things WILL change and no doubt Sakurai is going to use data from this to fine tune the game. Note how surprised he was when nobody pick Samus and how their number said she was powerful? Another example is how Megaman's leaf shield changed from when it was first shown when MM was announced and how it behaves now.

 

[D-idara]

I personally saw a delicious Mario combo by PewPewU.

 

[Gameboi834]

DIrect link please? I'm not finding any that work.

Just check Nintendo's Twitter

https://twitter.com/NintendoAmerica