Meta Smooth Lander and Heavy Gravity (SLHG)

[Muro]

What is it?
This mode combines the equipment badge Smooth Lander with the special smash mode Heavy Gravity. Here's what it looks like in action:

How to play SLHG
Complete challenges A7, B2, B6, equip the obtained badges and turn Heavy Gravity on in the special smash menu.

Those badges will always have the same stats in every wii u.

Standard Set: After playing and discussing it we settled on this equipment set.

Badge Name                            Stats         Challenge
Smooth Lander Brawn Badge          +36a/-35d/0s        A7
Moon Launcher Protection Badge     0a/+37d/-30s        B2
Item Hitter Agility Badge          -40a/0d/+33s        B6
Total:                             -4a/+2d/+3s

Remember you can complete these challenges using hammers, in order to make it easier and faster.

Getting hammers (5 total):
- Clear All-Star
- Clear 100-man smash
- Clear crazy orders while playing as villager
- Clear solo classic at intensity 2.0 or more with 5 or more characters
- Clear all of the solo events

To play on heavy gravity just press Smash from the main menu, and then special smash. From there, turn the gravity setting to heavy and press start.

Videos
Submit your videos in this thread and I'll update this section.

Highlights
- Combo Showcase by RED
- SLHG Cool Combos
- Why I love SLHG
- Why I love SLHG 2
- The beast is back (CF)
- Combo Showcase vol. 3
- Combo Video Hype vol. 2
- Pseudo wombo combo

PvP
- Villager vs Ganondorf (online)
- Jiggs vs Bowser Jr.
- Greninja vs Shiek
- Zelda vs Jigglypuff (online)
- Yoshi vs Falco
- Captain Falcon vs Bowser Jr.
- Kirby vs Falcon (online)
- Captain Falcon vs Falco
- Dr. Mario vs Captain Falcon (online)
- Falcon vs Peach (online)
- Sonic vs Pikachu

Tutorials/Info
- Setting Up SLHG
- Jump Height Showcase in Battlefield
- All the recoveries in HG
- How to recover as Mega Man with Up-B1 (BANNED!). Clear challenge M7 for another Up-B, Tornado Hold
- Sonic recovery technique
- Smooth Lander effect example

FAQ
Q: Why heavy gravity?
A: Ok let's talk onstage first: in the normal game, when you get a hit or a throw, the opponent goes too far for you to follow up. With heavy gravity, they stay in range for you to follow up and you can chain moves and reads to stay on the offensive really well. Everyone gains a ton of combos, and everyone's air-to-ground mixups become harder to predict (because of the faster fall speed). It makes airdodges a lot worse, accentuates the need to tech the stage to avoid combos (which become tech chases) and the need to have good DI.

In the offstage game, the recoveries in the game are so good that we rarely see any edgeguarding in base sm4sh. By upping the gravity, everyone gets sent at a much lower angle, and must recover more horizontally so as not to fall too low. This gives more opportunity for the edgeguarder to intercept the recovery and put the opponent in an even worse position, if not outright kill him. It also makes moves that send horizontally more useful now, whereas they were kinda used just for damage before, if at all.

Q: But doesn't that make recoveries useless?
A: No, pretty much the only characters that have bad recoveries already had them. The exceptions are sonic and DHD, because their recoveries are affected in an unnatural way. Although even someone like sonic still has a few ways to come back since the ledge mechanics are so lenient. Meanwhile, some characters are still borderline impossible to edgeguard like pikachu, shiek, zelda, G&W, peach etc etc. The recoveries are so good that they really feel natural in heavy gravity instead of broken.

Q: Aren't you just trying to make the game more like melee?
A: No, we're trying to customize the game to be the best it can be. It just so happens that melee is a good game and they end up sharing some good qualities (they are games in the same series after all). This is still very much sm4sh though, so don't expect the gameplay to be similar (although nerfed, defensive options are still much better in sm4sh). If anything SLHG mode customizes the game to be between melee and brawl.

Q: What can I do to help?
A: I'm glad you asked! First and foremost, play it. Really just play it and enjoy yourself. If you like a video made by our content creators share it. Share it on your local scene, share it on reddit, share it on twitter, whatever. If you want to create content we could use that too. If you wanna host tournaments that's even better. Let's show the world how awesome SLHG is, and maybe one day we'll see it become an event.

 

[shapular]

I tried out heavy gravity without Smooth Lander earlier this week (I don't have any Smooth Lander badges and it's not something I want to waste a hammer on tbh). I didn't see an active thread for it at the time so I'll leave my impressions here. They should still be relevant since they're not related to landing lag. I'll be up-front and say I didn't think this was a good idea to become the competitive standard, but I thought it would still be a fun mode to play with friends so we could pretend it's Melee. Here's what I found:

: Gets some cool juggles (possibly for days). Recovery is even worse so he probably can't go deep anymore but also probably doesn't need to.
: Throws are terrible now. Uthrow still sends them a mile in the air but he can't follow up. Dthrow puts them basically right in front of him, with not enough hitstun to get much off of it.
: Can still dthrow to full jump nair, but can't do anything after the nair before landing. Up B doesn't combo into itself except maybe at very high percents when they should be dead anyway.
: Can't reach platforms on PS2 with a full jump (which means he probably can't reach most platforms with a full jump since PS2's aren't particularly high). SH dair has like three hits, which means it probably does about 3%.
: Recovery is somehow even worse than Brawl.
: Can't do anything after uthrow to uair before landing. Can't drop from the ledge, do a Header, and regrab the ledge, but can do it by double jumping before the Header.
: Doesn't gain any height on up B. Dthrow to uair combos seem worse (hooray!).
: Can't double jump out of full jump bair (maybe with perfect timing), but sh bair seems to autocancel and you can do them in quick succession. Hardly any difference between short hop and full jump.
: Possibly even better than she already is. Can't do Bouncing Fish from the ground, though. The hitbox seems to come out lower than the height she starts at. Recovery is unaffected so she can still go deep. Possibly the best character in heavy gravity.
: Has Melee-style juggle game. Can't autocancel any sh aerials.

Overall:
-PS2 wind transformation feels like Brawl! Now we can pretend we're playing Melee and pretend we're playing Brawl in the same match.
-Characters suck at chasing characters in the air for juggles.
-For the characters I tried, more combos seemed to be lost than gained.
-Vertical throws don't seem to be affected, which limits followups.
-Vertical KOs are nerfed pretty significantly.
-We probably lose some stages. Kongo Jungle 64, Town & City, Duck Hunt, and Castle Siege's second transformation all have platforms that are probably too high for characters to reach reliably in this mode. If you get caught by Castle Siege transforming, you're probably dead.
-Characters seem nerfed in general. I think this is important to note. It's not like playing Project M where suddenly everybody is amazing.

 

[Muro]

edit: gonna use this post to save the builds section which was a big part of the OP for a long time. We eventually settled on build 2.


Builds
List of non random badges and their stats.
Note: a = attack, d = defense, s = speed.

Build 1: proof of concept.
Description: Easiest build to unlock.
Side effects: More knockback. More damage.
Hammers needed: 1.
Details: this build is the easiest to unlock, and so, it's the best one to try if you wanna know what SLHG feels like.

Badge list:

Item Name                            Stats            Challenge
Smooth Lander Brawn Badge         +36a/-35d/0s           A7
Default Agility Badge             -14a/0d/+21s   unlocked by default
Default Protection Badge          0a/+21d/-14s   unlocked by default
Total:                            +22a/-14d/7s

Build 2: best current practice.
Description: Least stat difference.
Side effect: 1.3x damage to upward hitting moves.
Hammers needed: 3.
Details: over time most people end up using this build due to the better combo game it generates. The moon launcher effect goes hand in hand with heavy gravity. Read more.

Badge list:

Item Name                             Stats         Challenge
Smooth Lander Brawn Badge          +36a/-35d/0s        A7
Item Hitter Agility Badge          -40a/0d/+33s        B6
Moon Launcher Protection Badge     0a/+37d/-30s        B2
Total:                             -4a/+2d/+3s

Build 3: for fun.
Description: Offset the jump height with the speed stat for heavy gravity.
Side effects: More knockback. More speed.
Hammers needed: 2.
Details: who doesn't like fun? Plus if you have build 2 you have build 3, enjoy the enhanced speed.

Badge list:

Item Name                         Stats              Challenge
Smooth Lander Brawn Badge      +36a/-35d/0s             A7
Item Hitter Agility Badge      -40a/0d/+33s             B6
Default Protection Badge       0a/+21d/-14s      unlocked by default
Total:                         -4a/-14d/19s

 

[shapular]

like I said in the OP, politics are for other threads.

Just saying that so my post could be taken with the appropriate amounts of grains of salt.

these are definitely affected by SL.

How so? Other than the Marth autocancels, it's all things that relate solely to the heavy gravity and not landing lag. Is there something I'm missing?

 

[GameWatching]

Doesn't Megaman have a Beat custom Up-B that makes his recovery better anyways ?

 

[Muro]

Just saying that so my post could be taken with the appropriate amounts of grains of salt.

I don't like circlejerks, as long as you're being honest you can state your opinion freely, no need to be defensive in advance.

How so? Other than the Marth autocancels, it's all things that relate solely to the heavy gravity and not landing lag. Is there something I'm missing?

ok one by one:

: Gets some cool juggles (possibly for days). Recovery is even worse so he probably can't go deep anymore but also probably doesn't need to.

juggles are definitely affected by landing lag. Landing traps are enhanced and he's got an easier time chasing on platforms.

: Can't double jump out of full jump bair (maybe with perfect timing), but sh bair seems to autocancel and you can do them in quick succession. Hardly any difference between short hop and full jump.

autocanceling is not a big advantage when your lag is already reduced by 1/3. I played around a bit with jigs but didn't go very in depth. I'll try to look for the other things.

edit: she can double jump out of full jump bair, and it's not very difficult.

: Possibly even better than she already is. Can't do Bouncing Fish from the ground, though. The hitbox seems to come out lower than the height she starts at. Recovery is unaffected so she can still go deep. Possibly the best character in heavy gravity.

how good she is will definitely be affected by how the smooth lander changes her and other characters.

: Has Melee-style juggle game. Can't autocancel any sh aerials.

well you already conceded this.

Also, the stat changes will have some type of influence on the metagame, I just didn't want to be nitpicky before.

Go unlock SL and give it a whirl, you may just like it, even if you don't like HG.

Doesn't Megaman have a Beat custom Up-B that makes his recovery better anyways ?

well yeah, but if we stick to non customs, he can still make it. I kinda like it that his recovery takes more skill this way. Also, If you're skilled you can even attack in between jumping on the dog. There needs to be some kinda rule akin to what we have for jigs in melee lol, or else he can just stall.


Regarding equipment. I've been playing event mode, and it seems there's a reward for every event. I don't know if this equipment comes with the same stats but at any rate all the equipment I got was limited for certain characters pertaining to the specific event, so maybe it's not worth it to add to the OP, what do you guys think?

Also, I was thinking about adding a Build 0 for people playing with <10a/<10s/<10d for all the people using random equipment to get the stats as close to 0 as they can. Good bad or unnecessary?

edit: more feedback for shapular's post:

All of this was done with build 2.

g&w: his upthrow seems to combo into Up-b from there you can do other aerials, don't know if it's a true combo or not, but it'll definitely force a reaction. Needs more testing to see how DI influences this. His down throw seems to combo to pretty much anything, nair and up tilt seem like good options. He can't reach the lowest platforms of battlefield with a full jump, his up be still goes very high, doesn't seem like it's affected by gravity at all, with this he can reach the top platform of battlefield very quickly.

jigs: she can double jump out of full hop bair, and the timing is not very strict.

bowser jr: he can reach the lower platforms of battlefield with his full jump.

Link: yeah his recovery crappy, he's still got bomb jumping and the tether though. I'd like to see someone skilled do it in a real match, but it seems tricky/unviable.
He can't full jump onto the lower platform of battlefield. As a curiosity, when full hopping nair to the platform, his whole body is above the platform, but he still falls through. His shff nair is wicked fast. Tether landing lag doesn't seem to be affected by SL.

haven't tested anything else.

 

[Jugoken]

heres a setting up smooth lander heavy tutorial video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f93kcELBK0w

 

[Muro]

heres a setting up smooth lander heavy tutorial video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f93kcELBK0w

thanks, I put that in the end of the unlocking section.

I also updated with the different ways to unlock hammers and more item giving challenges.

edit: also just updated with build 3 and 4.

 

[Smiles]

It should be noted that someone in another thread posted about amiibo farming to get a ton of equipment combined to get zero to near zero stats. I can attest to this. Havent gotten 0/0/0 yet though.

"I have read your post and felt the need to put my two cents in. I actually subscribed just to answer this. I have found a way to effortlessly get items that cancels out each other stats. It's amiibo farming. Everytime they participate in a fight, you they give you rewards when you update your amiibo.

Now, I got 8 amiibo (yeah don't judge me on that ) and I put all of them in a 8 players fight with 99 live using low gravity. I started the fight and went shopping for a couple of hours. When I got back, the fight was over and I collected the gifts.
The number of gifts you receive depend on the number of life stocks your amiibos takes while fighting. Since I got 8 amiibos, I collected reward for each amiibos. And all in all, in the spawn of 3-4 hours of shopping, I collected over 158 items, among them I had 84 pieces of equipment and 36 custom moves and the rest in trophies.

Among the 84 pieces of equipment, 5 had the smooth lander ability paired with random stats. I was able to get a few combo of items that gave me smooth lander and stat chages of +1/-1 and I got 2 perfect set of 3 equipment that give me smooth lander and 0/0/0 in stat boost.

All of this while I was away. It's still possible to get these items if you got only 2 amiibos, it would just take longer.

The only downside is that now my amiibo shields too much and rolls constantly in fights, but I can just reset them.

Hope this helps
Guillaume1987"

 

[Kwam$tack$]

It should be noted that someone in another thread posted about amiibo farming to get a ton of equipment combined to get zero to near zero stats. I can attest to this. Havent gotten 0/0/0 yet though.
/quote]

Lets play a few matches and see how it is. I didnt even know there was a SL with 0/0/0 stats

 

[Phoenix502]

here's to this picking up a scene and going big :D

[actually, got a question, I decided to look at the Equipment section on Smashwiki, and found there's an effect called "Anchor Jump" that increases fall speed, do you think something like this could help a SL experience outside of special smash, like for Online play?]

 

[Muro]

here's to this picking up a scene and going big :D

[actually, got a question, I decided to look at the Equipment section on Smashwiki, and found there's an effect called "Anchor Jump" that increases fall speed, do you think something like this could help a SL experience outside of special smash, like for Online play?]

Haha let's hope so, at any rate this is how I'll be playing whenever I can since it's much more satisfying imo.
To your question, I don't know honestly. I've been playing in heavy gravity and you definitely feel more in control due to the quick fall speed, so maybe.

Lets play a few matches and see how it is. I didnt even know there was a SL with 0/0/0 stats

You messed up a bracket and it ruined your post lol. There isn't though, what he's suggesting is getting a lot of random equipment until you eventually get a combination of SL badge, Agility badge, Protection badge that nets him the 0/0/0.

It should be noted that someone in another thread posted about amiibo farming to get a ton of equipment combined to get zero to near zero stats. I can attest to this. Havent gotten 0/0/0 yet though.

"big post by Guillaume1987"

I guess it depends on how much you really want 0/0/0 and how much you're willing to invest. I don't really have an amiibo so I wont be doing that but it's certainly an option. I'll add something about it in the OP.
To me the moon launcher effect in particular almost seems like it was made for heavy gravity, and stats with a difference below 5 don't really have much of an influence on things. If you prefer not to play with heavy gravity and don't want to be buffing vertical killers you can try the immortal caloric badge and still have <10 differences in stats, which also shouldn't noticeably influence the characters handling. Some characters can spawn food though so maybe there's some problems with that. I haven't looked into it too much but unless someone can just abuse it it shouldn't be a problem.

Now for some feedback about the game in general. SLHG with build 3. My playtime is mostly with pikachu.

Like I said I love how this changes the game. I feel like I can act super fast, jumping is not a huge commitment when you can fast fall super quick to the ground. Even if you're in the middle of an aerial you don't get stuck to the ground as much when you land.

You constantly have to be teching. Since heavy gravity more often than not places you very low to the ground after a hit. Doubly so with platforms, it's not so easy to shake off an attacker.

Air dodges seem super nerfed compared to air attacks now. This is kinda the same situation as with teching, you're going to be closer to the ground a lot more, where air dodging is probably not your best option. Again, platforms enhance this.

Pikachu in particular is so satisfying to play, between his shenanigans with QAEC and being able to go super deep offstage I feel like a boss edgeguarding and pulling off combos.

On that note, being offstage is dangerous. Getting your double jump sniped or read can spell doom instantly for most characters, so save your jumps. You should also be mindful of what aerials you can fast fall offstage. What you can do out of a short hop from the ledge, dropping down from the ledge, dropping down from holding the ledge and double jumping offstage. For pikachu you can do pretty much anything except fast falling back air.

It takes some time getting used to it, but when it clicks it feels awesome.

That's all for now I'll elaborate more if something comes to mind.

 

[RanserSSF4]

After playing SLHG for a while, I think I understand why Sakurai wanted this game to target to both competitive and casual audiences. This mode is targetted for Melee players and players who like aggressive play, while the main game itself is targetted to new veterans who want to get into competitive smash.

At first, I thought this new mode would turn the game into Melee 2.0, but after a while, it doesn't. It just speeds up the game, buffs approaching and combo potential for every character...well almost, depends on who it is.

 

[Muro]

.

Thanks for the feedback man. What characters did you play? did you use any of the builds in the OP?

I'll upload a pikachu match against a CPU tomorrow if I have time.

 

[RanserSSF4]

Thanks for the feedback man. What characters did you play? did you use any of the builds in the OP?

I'll upload a pikachu match against a CPU tomorrow if I have time.

I've played mostly my main Falcon, who I think is OP in this mode, but I started to try out other characters and I think one of the most buffed characters in this mode is Wario. He can consistently combo into his Uair over and over again after an Up Throw or Utilts. This combo can deal almost 100% within seconds. he can even combo his Uair into his Fart attack, if the opponent doesn't DI away, will die very quickly. His recovery doesn't get affected at all and it's still good.

 

[KayJay]

My 60FPS SLHG video material gameplay.
The mode is so much fun. Feels like Brawl+

 

[Muro]

I've played mostly my main Falcon, who I think is OP in this mode, but I started to try out other characters and I think one of the most buffed characters in this mode is Wario. He can consistently combo into his Uair over and over again after an Up Throw or Utilts. This combo can deal almost 100% within seconds. he can even combo his Uair into his Fart attack, if the opponent doesn't DI away, will die very quickly. His recovery doesn't get affected at all and it's still good.

nice, yeah combo DI is really important in SLHG. Generally, I think characters with good recoveries are gonna benefit more from the change just because offstage is so dangerous now.

My 60FPS SLHG video material gameplay.
The mode is so much fun. Feels like Brawl+

Nice, I also play with 3 stocks. What did you use to balance the stats?
I want to post a video of pikachu but need to get a better one. I do some cool stuff but then ruin the vid with an sd or something dumb.

edit: updated the op with some possible builds that keep the stat difference lower than 10.

 

[Shog]

SLHG is amazing, I have a lot of fun with Lucina and Marth in this mode. I think it known that more speed reduces landing lag too, I think, right?(Like havin +100 speed + Smooth Landing + Shulk = gg)

As I am casual, I don't have to convince others to play like that. But I have to say, trying it out once just so people can see how fun that mode is is something I hope that happens within the community

 

[Balgorxz]

I have 1000 hours of gameplay with SL and SLHG and they gameplay changes a lot between those, while the roster becomes worse with these changes enables a completely new and fun to play smash 4 I think everyone should try them.

 

[moreside]

I decided to look at the Equipment section on Smashwiki, and found there's an effect called "Anchor Jump" that increases fall speed.

I'm curious about this too. If anyone has the necessary equipment could they report back on how it works? Heavy gravity for fast falling is nice and all, but it has the unfortunate consequence of making it impossible to kill off the top. The anchor thing might remedy that.

 

[Muro]

SLHG is amazing, I have a lot of fun with Lucina and Marth in this mode. I think it known that more speed reduces landing lag too, I think, right?(Like havin +100 speed + Smooth Landing + Shulk = gg)

As I am casual, I don't have to convince others to play like that. But I have to say, trying it out once just so people can see how fun that mode is is something I hope that happens within the community

I actually like to play marth in this mode, feels a lot like brawl marth except still not as good lol.
Unfortunately I don't think there are any interesting builds with a lot of speed using challenge rewards. Maybe one of the remaining challenges has an interesting badge but it doesn't look like it. Maybe it's possible with some random equipment but that's too boring to farm for me.

I have 1000 hours of gameplay with SL and SLHG and they gameplay changes a lot between those, while the roster becomes worse with these changes enables a completely new and fun to play smash 4 I think everyone should try them.

I think most people who actually give it a chance end up liking it.

I'm curious about this too. If anyone has the necessary equipment could they report back on how it works? Heavy gravity for fast falling is nice and all, but it has the unfortunate consequence of making it impossible to kill off the top. The anchor thing might remedy that.

It also has the benefit of being able to be used online, which is the big bummer about heavy gravity. Unfortunately it doesn't seem to be a reward for any challenge. Maybe It's a reward for an event... In any case I haven't got it from random drops so I can't help you.

 

[SAHunterMech]

Hey there, just wanted to post my findings about this. First off, this is a really cool idea, and I'm glad I tried it out. I'd really want the competitive scene to adopt it, but it's probably never going to happen. Oh well, I still have a blast with my smash buddies when I play them every week. I totally prefer to play the game this way.

Anyway, I've made a build that seems to be working quite well; it's just a little different. Basically, aiming for these numbers

+10 Attack/+5 Defense/+20 Speed

seems to be ideal in heavy gravity.

After some experimenting, I found that +20 Speed is the magic number for restoring jumps to proper height, and it really enhances the combo game as well. Sonic, MegaMan, and DHD are still affected, but MegaMan can just use Beat, and DHD can use Super Duck jump, and it's all good. I have yet to find a solution for Sonic that would keep his stats in the same ballpark, but enhance his up-b; None of his customs grant him higher height.

The good news is, this build makes use of the Smooth Lander from block A7. The bad news is, the other two equipments are just generic Defense and Agility badges I received. Still, as long as you're within a discrepancy of 2-3 for the above stats, it'll be basically the same experience.

I honestly think this could be an attainable standard for competitive play, as I don't feel the numbers have to be matched to an exact extent. Having a guaranteed drop with fixed stats as a foundation helps too. But, and I can't stress this enough, with these settings, the game is just more FUN. Even if it never gets adopted by the tourney scene, or accepted by smashboards, I'm still having an awesome time. There's less camping, more combos, more insanity, more hype. I truly believe the system works, and if hacking ever opens up for smash 4, we could make it a lot easier to attain.

 

[Muro]

Hey there, just wanted to post my findings about this. First off, this is a really cool idea, and I'm glad I tried it out. I'd really want the competitive scene to adopt it, but it's probably never going to happen. Oh well, I still have a blast with my smash buddies when I play them every week. I totally prefer to play the game this way.

That's the spirit really.

Anyway, I've made a build that seems to be working quite well; it's just a little different. Basically, aiming for these numbers

+10 Attack/+5 Defense/+20 Speed

seems to be ideal in heavy gravity.

After some experimenting, I found that +20 Speed is the magic number for restoring jumps to proper height, and it really enhances the combo game as well. Sonic, MegaMan, and DHD are still affected, but MegaMan can just use Beat, and DHD can use Super Duck jump, and it's all good. I have yet to find a solution for Sonic that would keep his stats in the same ballpark, but enhance his up-b; None of his customs grant him higher height.

The good news is, this build makes use of the Smooth Lander from block A7. The bad news is, the other two equipments are just generic Defense and Agility badges I received. Still, as long as you're within a discrepancy of 2-3 for the above stats, it'll be basically the same experience.

I honestly think this could be an attainable standard for competitive play, as I don't feel the numbers have to be matched to an exact extent. Having a guaranteed drop with fixed stats as a foundation helps too. But, and I can't stress this enough, with these settings, the game is just more FUN. Even if it never gets adopted by the tourney scene, or accepted by smashboards, I'm still having an awesome time. There's less camping, more combos, more insanity, more hype. I truly believe the system works, and if hacking ever opens up for smash 4, we could make it a lot easier to attain.

I'll see if I can try your settings. In any case, I think your idea of offsetting the jump height with speed is cool. I tried looking for a build with 20 speed and got this one:

Build 3 item list:

Item Name                      Stats          Challenge
Smooth Lander Brawn Badge    +36a/0s/-35d      A7
Item Hitter Agility Badge    -40a/+33s/0d      B6
Default Protection Badge      0a/-14s/+21d     unlocked by default
Total:                       -4a/19s/-14d

I think Ill add this one to the OP. Thanks for the idea.

It's also possible to get:
stats: a:9 s:18 d:-14 effects: none + 1.5x attack power while at 0%.

Not a big fan of the effect but the stats are almost what you suggested.


edit: trimmed the op, I think it's better to keep it simple. Maybe I'll trim some more later.

 

[CrusaderVX]

Did some SLHG with build 3 tonight and I had a blast. Played with someone who's considers themselves a casual and they had a ton of fun as well. Recovers actually felt meaning full because stuff that I did in 4 to recover did not work so well in SLHG. It feels really dangerous to be off stage, and I like that.

Though one thing that annoyed me was that moves that killed vertically at around %100 now need to be up in the %130 range. Any way around that? I assume it's because of High Gravity.

 

[Muro]

Did some SLHG with build 3 tonight and I had a blast. Played with someone who's considers themselves a casual and they had a ton of fun as well. Recovers actually felt meaning full because stuff that I did in 4 to recover did not work so well in SLHG. It feels really dangerous to be off stage, and I like that.

Though one thing that annoyed me was that moves that killed vertically at around %100 now need to be up in the %130 range. Any way around that? I assume it's because of High Gravity.

Yeah it's pretty great

Yeah it's a consequence of the heavy gravity, vertical killing moves get nerfed :/ Try playing with the build 2, moon launcher supposedly increases knockback upwards so it should help. But from what I played it doesn't change a lot.

 

[ZADD]

First of all I love this mode, I play it almost exclusively now with multiple friends who main multiple characters. It feels like a true birth-child of Melee and Brawl.

Thanks for your hard work in researching builds, I really appreciate it and I think Build 2 is perfect for competition.

I've tried all 3 and Build 2 just feels right. Combos are a result of the player and not the character.
I believe that's what made Melee competitive in the first place

 

[Balgorxz]

Build 2 and Build 3 are the best IMO

 

[ZADD]

i do like build 3 but unfortunately the speed boost is too much. It might offset the jump height but Build 2's jump height suits the game type better IMO. +19 speed has a dramatic effect on all characters where -4, +3, +2 is totally negligible.

 

[Balgorxz]

i do like build 3 but unfortunately the speed boost is too much. It might offset the jump height but Build 2's jump height suits the game type better IMO. +19 speed has a dramatic effect on all characters where -4, +3, +2 is totally negligible.

yeah build 2 feels better than 3, if only we could find an easy build with -10 defense or something, that is enough for making shielding punishable.
another question, custom moves fix all upbs?

 

[Muro]

First of all I love this mode, I play it almost exclusively now with multiple friends who main multiple characters. It feels like a true birth-child of Melee and Brawl.

Thanks for your hard work in researching builds, I really appreciate it and I think Build 2 is perfect for competition.

I've tried all 3 and Build 2 just feels right. Combos are a result of the player and not the character.
I believe that's what made Melee competitive in the first place

i do like build 3 but unfortunately the speed boost is too much. It might offset the jump height but Build 2's jump height suits the game type better IMO. +19 speed has a dramatic effect on all characters where -4, +3, +2 is totally negligible.

I'm glad you're having fun man. yeah there's a change in character handling with build 3. Dunno if I like it myself, but Im gonna play it for a bit more.

yeah build 2 feels better than 3, if only we could find an easy build with -10 defense or something, that is enough for making shielding punishable.
another question, custom moves fix all upbs?

Assuming you don't like megaman's new way of recovering, his "beat" custom up b fixes that.
For DHD there's also a new up B that works.
For Sonic I don't think there's one.
For Diddy I dunno yet, what are his custom up B?

 

[Balgorxz]

I'm glad you're having fun man. yeah there's a change in character handling with build 3. Dunno if I like it myself, but Im gonna play it for a bit more.



Assuming you don't like megaman's new way of recovering, his "beat" custom up b fixes that.
For DHD there's also a new up B that works.
For Sonic I don't think there's one.
For Diddy I dunno yet, what are his custom up B?

Diddy has a recovery sideb and upb, he is fine.
Sonic has the doubleupb and the recovery sideb too

 

[Muro]

Diddy has a recovery sideb and upb, he is fine.
Sonic has the doubleupb and the recovery sideb too

His side B drops too low still. And his double spring goes about the same height as his normal up B. I think he's really screwed if he goes offstage. He can't fast fall to his spring like mega man can. Maybe, some custom side B that I don't have helps.

Anyway, if I was to play sonic, the best way to recover would be side B, double jump right at the slight height gain you get from side B, then Up B. Also mix in some neutral B when applicable (depends on the other player's position). In any case his recovery is not good.

Diddy can recover horizontaly, but vertically he's done, he's very gimpable in heavy smash mode. I'm gonna see if I can unlock his customs to test with them.

 

[B.A.M.]

I had a long post regarding this however it got deleted so ill make it short; this statement is no way a sleight to you all however if you are serious about pushing these builds I seriously suggest you seek the aid of more competent people to do so. As it stands right now, I havent seen a single SLHG that was impressive. Most have been against either casual or low level players vs cpus, or low level player a vs low level player b. Most of the combos ive seen are possible in the default engine and evade low level players due to the proper buffering requirement needed. Also low level players have horrific movement and honestly dont understand the intricacies of it. So them running fast to a back roll isnt at all impressive; no matter what speed it is showcased at.

You're also attempting to place customs into the mix which is already have a huge problem getting institutionalized anywhere. So I would seriously consider attempting to push this endevour without the use of custom moves.

So yeah, love the idea, but you need to help people visualize the potential greatness you see in the system and these gameplay/impressions arent cutting it for anyone competent person who actually has pull to get these things out into the mainstream.

 

[Muro]

.

Easier said than done though, you can't force people to try it. What you can do is just give information and let them decide for themselves. Plus, even if it doesn't take off, I'll be playing this way anyway, since it's how I have the most fun. Also, I'm not trying to push custom moves, I'm fine with Sonic, DHD and Diddy being low tier.

On that note, I just got a custom side B for sonic, which gives a better initial bump. If you time your double jump right, you get some more height. His recovery is still crap tho.

 

[Balgorxz]

Easier said than done though, you can't force people to try it. What you can do is just give information and let them decide for themselves. Plus, even if it doesn't take off, I'll be playing this way anyway, since it's how I have the most fun. Also, I'm not trying to push custom moves, I'm fine with Sonic, DHD and Diddy being low tier.

On that note, I just got a custom side B for sonic, which gives a better initial bump. If you time your double jump right, you get some more height. His recovery is still crap tho.

competitive players don't care about pontless testing unless its useful for them, most of top tier competitive players don't even know his main custom moves, so get them to learn to play like this is going to be hard.

 

[Muro]

competitive players don't care about pontless testing unless its useful for them, most of top tier competitive players don't even know his main custom moves, so get them to learn to play like this is going to be hard.

what's your point?

 

[ZADD]

I dont understand why so many people try so hard to put this idea down. Dont actively shut down other peoples preferences.

I get it, you want sm4sh to be perfect in its original state. I wanted that too.

What i got was a floaty read/camp based game with like 6 viable characters.

I play SLHG because its more like Melee: Fast, Unforgiving, Satisfying

 

[SAHunterMech]

What i got was a floaty read/camp based game with like 6 viable characters.

I really, really don't want to sound like an asshole, but I totally agree (maybe not on the 6 viable characters part though). I still LIKE to play Sm4sh, but yeah, it really feels like offensive efforts aren't rewarded at all. The system gives a near-permanent advantage to the defending player, and so, camping, trading hits, running away, and gimping come into play more than ever. Combos drop all the time, it just feels so unsatisfying. I feel like the Brawl system just doesn't work for competition, and Smash 4 is basically an attempt to fix a broken dead horse.

But... what makes the game so great is that with a little tweaking, in-game tweaking no less, we can make it more enjoyable. I think they really threw us a bone in that regard. Good thing people are so eager to use equipment and custom moves...

Anyway, I've come up with something here. Basically, it feels really, really close to heavy gravity. I used the smooth lander brawn badge from A7 and two generic badges to get +10/+8/+20, and then I turned down the knockback scaling to 0.8. I think it's damned close, as I'm still getting the same combos, but now we don't have to worry about Recovery/Fastfalling issues. If anyone wants to try this build (Use a Hammer on A7, and Super Defense/Agility badges for the rest, doesn't have to be exact), feedback would be appreciated.

 

[Balgorxz]

I dont understand why so many people try so hard to put this idea down. Dont actively shut down other peoples preferences.

I get it, you want sm4sh to be perfect in its original state. I wanted that too.

What i got was a floaty read/camp based game with like 6 viable characters.

I play SLHG because its more like Melee: Fast, Unforgiving, Satisfying

man SLHG is NOTHING like melee but its more satisfying because its more unforgiving indeed just like you said, the gameplay is completely different though.

now, one of the issues of vanilla smash 4 is that the shield is too strong, something can be easily solved by -10/20 defense.
but what is smash 4?
people complain that we should play the game in its original state, but this is the real smash 4, the game was created with customs and equipment no other smash game has that so in fact the people trying SLHG and customs moves are playing it closer to its original state than the people that want all the options banned.

 

[ZADD]

man SLHG is NOTHING like melee but its more satisfying because its more unforgiving indeed just like you said, the gameplay is completely different though.

I agree what I meant is SLHG gives back dimensions that gave melee competitive worth, but adds new techs such as footstool combos and multihit combos from a lack of SDI etc.. It also eliminates ledge hogging, which i always felt was pretty unsatisfying for the most part.

Its not like melee, but thats why I like it. Its so NEW and UNTAPPED. I believe anyone who tries it will come to appreciate it if they get over the logistical things.