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Smash History: Stock Counts In Smash

George Santayana said, “Those who do not learn history are doomed to repeat it.” A current and common debate among those in the Smash 4 community is if the current standard of using two stocks should be changed to three. Some within this discussion may not know why specific stock counts were even chosen in the first place. In this Smash History we will take a look at The History Of Stock Counts In Smash and see how the community has dealt with stock counts in our history.

Smash 64

Don't know where to start? Go back to the beginning. Today for those who don't know, Smash 64 is generally ran with 5 stocks. The match shown above took place around 2002, only three years after the release of Smash 64 and used six.
Unsurprising as it was the first release for the series, the competitive scene for Smash 64 upon first release was not as organized as any title after. While some original 64 posts have been lost, it seems that at least by the 2006 to 2007 era that 5 stocks was a common standard.

The story does not end here however, as even among the Smash 64 community there have been debates over the merits of using 4 stocks instead of five. It was even discussed potentially for an Apex ruleset. The main concern of why the stock count should be reduced is the same as Smash 4: time. Unlike other Smash titles Smash 64 lacks a mode with both stocks AND time as a choice to use. As purely using a timer has been proven to be not competitive, this has created an issue of particularly long matches in Smash 64.

While admittedly on the stage Hyrule Castle, which is now banned at most major events, one game with SuPeRbOoMfAn vs Gerson took over 52 minutes. They still had more of the set to play out after. This is certainly an unusual occurrence but even other big matches, like the Apex 2012 Grand Finals, can take over 30 minutes to finish, more time than three games of Brawl and Melee going to time.

While it seems the community still wants a 5 stock ruleset overall, the Smash 64 does have something very unique to it that is also worth mentioning: Yolo Tournaments. These are one stock, best of one sets, with brackets randomly seeded and the character the player must use randomly chosen then locked for the entire tournament. Not to mention each stage is chosen at random. These are mostly done purely for fun or charitable reasons, but is worth noting as a unique event where one stock is used especially as we look into...

Melee

While people know Melee for using four stocks today, this was not the case in the beginning. Interestingly enough some of the earliest tournaments used 5 stocks. The catch? "It was 5 stock single-match; 2 out of 3 sets were rare during early tourneys." That quote comes from Chillendude's History of a Smasher, and the match shown above is the grand final set from the very tournament mentioned. This seems to have been prevalent into at least 2004 as Chillendude also went on to say "It was also 5 stock, which was normal for MD/VA tourneys in 2002-04." He also mentioned how 6 stocks was used to "make up for single elimination". As time when on however, 4 stock matches with best of three at a minimum became a standard. But yet again something creeper into the minds of competitors: time.

"As time was getting close to expiring, Wes manged to get Chu down to his last stock while he was over 100% on his last stock. He then camped out the rest of the 30 seconds or so with up+B’s on the fin, and the timer ran out. Good thing Chu had that 100%+ damage lead, right?

Nope. M3D’s rule was that in the event of stock ties, sudden death would be played out. This seems silly now, but his reasoning at the time was, “it would be lame if someone lost by like 2%.” So instead, Wes beat Chu in sudden death and despite being on his way to 3 stocking Wes, Chu lost."

No one today would think of playing out sudden death, but back in the day it was not as unusual. In theory playing without a timer shouldn’t be a problem, it’d be better to allow the best player to be found. The main issue here was practicality, tournaments need to be able to end before venues close so only running stocks had its issues. Yet again Melee shows that the time a tournament takes seemed to be a major factor in ruleset decisions as it is today. It's spiritual successor would go on to potentially experiment outside of four stocks.

Project M

Being the spiritual successor to Melee with similar mechanics and speed, many thought that four stocks was an easy and obvious standard to use at tournaments. Things changed at The Big House 4 where Project M was ran with three stocks at a major tournament. Yet again we see this was done because of time concerns. This pattern just keep creeping into discussions. Despite the event going very well, tournaments going into the future kept with a four stock standard over worrying n times as the community felt it was best for the game.

Brawl

Brawl quickly gained a notoriety for particularly long sets as the game grew competitively. Three stock tournaments could end on time so the time section was less of an issue for practicality in Brawl but more of an issue with the spectator. Watching longs games of Brawl was not enjoyable to all fans and many thought it, alongside many matches player with a single character (Meta Knight) could be an issues for Brawl's growth.

To combat this, one idea was to run one stock tournaments. With the reduced time for each match, seeing similar characters possibly wouldn't have been as bad, and may have opened up the tier lists for characters like Zero Suit Samus or Pokemon Trainer potentially. Some suggest doing best of 5 matches to combat the lack of stocks while others said that best of three where players just had three stocks and fought only on one stage would work. The grand finals match of Get On My Level, one of the first events to try this, is shown above. Top players and spectators also gave their comments on the event and the results were varied. Recently Brawl was also brought back for a special event at Xanadu which used 2 stocks and a reduced timer.

It seems however most strong Brawl tournament series like FLAOC as well as majors like Super Smash Con are likely to continue on the three stock standard despite time constraints as in general it is preferred by those still playing the game.

The Present: Smash 4

Yet again it seems the deciding factor for using 2 stocks in Smash 4 comes down to time as well as viewership concerns just as it was in Brawl. Tournament organizers have claimed that running three stock events would simply take too much extra time and thus two stock is chosen. After the tournament FC Return, famed TO Juggleguy personally said: "Never, ever run three stock Smash Wii U… ever. The FC day two schedule moved along at a snail’s pace in part because the inexplicable decision to run three stock Smash 4 caused delays, which were further amplified by the queueing up of multiple stream matches and the excessive number of game changeovers. PSA to all TOs, please ignore the vocal, entitled, never-ran-a-tourney-before social media monsters that argue for a three stock Smash 4 ruleset. Stick to the proven two stock ruleset so you can finish the tourney at a reasonable hour."

This opinion is not shared by all however. At the recent tournament Texas Gaming Championships 5, the tournament had 240 entrants for singles, and 80 doubles teams with on site signups. Tournament organizer for the event Xyro gave his thoughts on a three stock ruleset taking more time.

"It is a common belief that that 3 stocks add substantial time to a tournament's overall length. This is incorrect. If a TO does his/her job of doing sign-ups on time, calling matches on time, ensuring friendlies are at a minimum (or eliminated) and refrains from deviating from the advertised schedule, the overall event will not last much longer than a 2 stock event." TGC 5 had 240 1vs1 entrants and 80 2vs2 teams. I did sign-ups on site and finished 12.5 hours later. I finished before 1am as advertised. Dabuz told me that most events he attends on the EC end around 3-4am, have far less entrants and use 2 stock."


Pro player Dabuz gave his own comments on how the event went with three stocks. In his exact words: "WITH A 3 STOCK 7 MINUTE RULESET (Which BTW, I actually liked @_@ near the top 8 though when players play more safe, matches did something drag on though) AND POOLS WHERE EVERYONE THAT GOES INTO LOSERS IS RESEEDED BACK INTO WINNERS, everything was finished by midnight. That's really, really, really, really impressive. I would expect this kind of event to be 2 day."

Into the future, it seems a large section of Texas as well as Europe is looking to run 3 stocks. Another major this weekend, Ossom Fights, will take place in Spain and is set to use three stocks so it will be an interesting events to watch and study. will it still be a strong event for spectators, or is two stock superior in this case?
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So looking into the past, it seems the time events take was a primary factor in deciding our ruleset as well as stock counts. With varying sides to this issue it seems this will be a continued source of discussion within the community. Hopefully as this discussion continues we can look back into our past for inspiration and use it to come up with the best ruleset for the game's future.

Writer's Note: A special thank you to Crillxz for helping develop the idea for and inspiring this article. Consider following Crillxz on Twitter for future brilliant ideas.
 
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Comments

The thing with Smash 4 is that the matches can be either really slow, or like a minute long.

Fox, ZSS, DK, and Captain Falcon are some characters who have the quickest matches. Then you have characters like Sonic, Olimar/Alph, and Rosaluma who generally have slower matches. Is it always like this? Not really.

Smash 4 has lots of different play styles meaning you can play how you want to play.

Characters like Wario, Lil Mac, and Lucario make me wanna see the game with 3 stocks, but then there's Sonic.
 
Just judging by VODs I've watched of Smash 4, these days the game seems faster than it used to be by a considerable margin. Maybe moving to three stocks is the right way to go; two stocks never felt like enough to me.
 
Some people want 2 stock as well because of for glory and classic mode set for that.

Not really solid that is the best way but I do want to see a 2 versus 3 thing time wise.
 
From someone who's always been on the side of two stocks, but also attended TGC5, Id have to say that three stock matches is the future for Sm4sh. Two stocks gives rage too much of an influence of the match while three stocks adds pressure to both players to perform better (or worse). If TGC5 was to run two stocks I would have gone 0-2 in the entire tournament, but I was able to bring my games back by either my opponent cracking under pressure or due to me playing better under pressure. No way am I saying that I prefer three stocks over two simply because I did better at this one tournament; I just think it adds more to the game overall for both the players as well as the spectators when three stocks is used. Just as long as the TO/Staff is making sure everything is ran on time and the community is willing to work with them, time is not an excuse to run two stocks over three. Super job at TGC5 btw Xyro77 Xyro77
 
You know, I wonder if the much smaller Smash 4 turnouts these days would allow for 3 stock matches over 2. Every time I'm at a multi-game event, Smash 4 starts the latest and consistently ends before Melee singles just before it.

Then again, I'm rather appreciative of the extra hours for friendlies, since Smash 4's communities don't seem to know the definition of "smashfest" and hosting people at your home for the purpose of practice. Everybody is either okay with using online matches for practice, or anti-socially practice alone. Neither of which are fun.
 
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SSB64 would do better with 3 stocks. I'd keep the set Best of 3 still.

Melee will forever stay 4 stocks despite that seeming to be a USA invention (from my memory Japan used 3 stocks). 3 stocks probably works out fine for Melee though, but I don't see the Melee community changing anything ever because their game is absolutely perfect and the greatest game ever crafted.

Brawl, honestly I had most fun with 1-stock matches - Best of 3 worked out ok with 1-stock matches somehow. Best of 5 was ok for finals, but lost interest watching Best of 7 for some reason.

SSB4? I'd be fine with SSB4 using 3 stocks. I'm ok with 2-stocks too.
I'm more concerned with lifting the ridiculous bans and moveset restriction on the Mii fighters first. When the big issues are dealt with professionally then we can move on.
 
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Even crazier at TGC 5 was that singles pools actually started later than the intended time due to doubles being so big, and he was still able to finish in such a reasonable time. It also attracted an insane talent pool. From those I played in friendlies and tourney, low level players were few and far between.
 
TGC 5 was extremely well run and even then there were a lot of corners that could be cut if they wanted to save more time for whatever reason like:

-Capping doubles at a lower amount. I realize it was already capped at 80, but nonetheless 80 teams (160 players) is a ridiculous amount for a 1 day event starting after noon, especially when its followed by 235 singles.
-Not reseeding losers from pools back into winners bracket for top 32
-Having more of the top 12 done off stream rather than holding matches for stream.

For 2 stock TOs that are reluctant to run 3 stock based only on time - I believe format is the last thing you should be willing to cut. There are usually other considerations you should look at besides format such as calling matches quickly, starting events on time, disqualifying people quickly (aka not showing preferential treatment even to a top player who is holding up the bracket), balancing wanting to put sets on stream vs having them play offstream, etc.. All pretty basic common sense stuff really. If you're truly curious on how much time it would add to your event, try out 3 stocks.
 
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no it wouldn't, go away
Why? I, for one, agree with him. Asking as you're telling the person what set you're using and stuff, it's cool. Mii fighters have the potential to add longevity to the game with their "create your own fighter" niche and ability to carve your own play style instead of trying to fit it in already restrictive characters.
 
I'm pretty sure 2 Stocks was played because of for glory. In the beginning days everyone has played with 2 Stocks because everyone played for glory a looot.
and of course most tournament organizers are like "nice this way my tournaments finish faster".
If there were no for glory, I'm pretty sure people would've never had considered 2 Stocks. Brawl was much much much slower than Smash 4 and every event was played with 3 Stocks and we never had converns at the times.
Almost every tournament in europe plays with 3 Stocks because we did not let us get influenced by some game mode.
3 Stocks is a much better experience and it's really sad that tournaments are so stubbornly held with 2.
Time is not an issue. It has never really been an issue for a much slower game with 3 Stocks.
 
if you have no fun watching 3 Stock Matches than Smash 4 might be the wrong game for you.
I hate watching 2 Stock matches, because I want to see as much of it as possible. It feels so uncomplete and unsatisfiying. I'll be happy the day everyone finally switches to 3 Stocks.
 
I actually like 2 stocks a lot. To me it just makes matches more tense and leaves less room for mistakes. Plus matches tend to go by faster while still being enjoyable to both watch and play.
 
Amazing you didn't mention vectoring as one of the key factors behind that desicion, not only were players a lot slower and less optimized back then, but vectoring allowed people to live up to ridiculous percents.

Now we have

*Faster players
*No vectoring(at least not close to how it used to be
*Nerfed shields

I think it's honestly time for 3 stocks, I'm fine with 2 but 3 might be a good idea.
 
It has been over a year since Smash 4 was released and people are still arguing about the stock count... Seriously just play the godam game and let the leaders of the community decide!
 
So basically "TOs should git gud" ya?
Edit: this message is in no way 'disrespect' to our hard working TOs. Unless you think respect is subjective to whoever's on the receiving end (which I agree with) but at that point it doesn't matter. It merely states it's quite possible for them to do a much better job.
 
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2 stocks is perfect. 3 stocks in unnecessarily long if you play a defensive/zoning character. Also, it doesn't necessarily mean better skill is rewarded. ZeRo didn't drop a single game at EVO when it was 2 stock. We still see the same handful of players in top 4 of nationals over and over again. I don't see a need for 3, 2 is fine. Unless you SD, the amount of variance in 2 stock isn't much different from 3. Do we really want to see near half hour sets of sonics, rosas, olimars running away? 3 stock would be bad for viewership, and that's the most important. We want this game to GROW.
 
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Wow, I never knew that sudden death in melee was actually a thing. They would never do that today in any Smash game. And yeesh 6 stock Smash 64 matches? Those games must've went on forever. I think it's fine with 5 stock with all of that hitstun in the game. (too much hitstun honestly)

As for Smash 4, idk. I like 2 stock matches, but I think tournament should try 3 stock and see how that goes.
 
At Avalon and GGWP we always use 3 stocks for Sm4sh, and usually have 120+ single entrans and about 35-50 teams entrants. We start doubles at 12.00 and singles by 14.30 while the top bracket of teams is still running. We usually end at like 21.30 which is very decent in my opinion.
 
As the Avalon TO, I can confirm that. The only compromise is less bo5 sets than we do in Melee, but otherwise we can comfortably run 128 man singles for both games in a single day, preceded by a teams bracket.

I've always considered 2 stocks to be TO laziness or just conforming to American standards, especially considering many tournaments don't start Bo5 till very late regardless. The game is probably a tad slower than Melee on average, but like with Melee, it depends on matchups (Rosalina vs Pac-Man is going to be slower than Sheik vs ZSS). With the metagame advancing, more and more characters are finding ways to kill significantly earlier than in Brawl, which is another game we ran with 3 stocks.

It has always been an arbitrary decision and many events still run 3 stocks succesfully. With 3 stocks an individual game isn't (more or less) decided by one big play and you see more consistency and adaptation. We have polled our playerbase on this and the majority prefers 3 stocks, even if it means not as many Bo5 sets. There might be merits to 2 stocks, but I can't stress enough how it has never been discussed and I've yet to see people provide an argument other than "less playtime equals easier schedules".

Going with less stocks fits the mindset of people who think Smash is too slow to be part of the FGC, so they pushed shorter games for the new entry. Some debate that Brawl should have had 1 stock Bo5/7 sets or that Melee should have had 3 stocks, but either way you need arguments that don't come down to "just saving time by giving people less playtime". You should plan for the game to run, you can't whimsically adapt the game to your needs. If you can only facilitate X amount of players with the time and setups you have, there's your cap.

Literally every issue I've seen with Smash 4 and Melee at the same event came from poor planning or taking too long technically to switch between games (either due to players in multiple games or the streamer having difficulty changing the hardware). One could wonder if you need to force the playerbases to watch each other's top 8, but all the stock count does is make outliers take longer. This does mean less control for the TO, but if we based Melee on Young Link vs Jigglypuff, we'd probably play with 1 stock.

Melee ran late at a major event as recent as DreamHack Winter, where it ran till 11:45 PM or so instead of the scheduled 11 PM, but somehow this sort of thing is rarely complained about with Melee. Although I am a Melee player at heart, I find many Melee TOs and players to be extremely biased in that regard.
 
if you have no fun watching 3 Stock Matches than Smash 4 might be the wrong game for you.
I hate watching 2 Stock matches, because I want to see as much of it as possible. It feels so uncomplete and unsatisfiying. I'll be happy the day everyone finally switches to 3 Stocks.
If you hate watching 2 stock matches then Smash 4 is the wrong game for you. Go watch Brawl.
 
It's kinda sad to think about viewers having more power on the ruleset than the players themselves.

Boring matches will be boring either way. Just do something else during pools or something if you don't care and leave the stream running while doing other stuff or something. That's what I do sometimes.
Good matches being longer is a good thing. Especially for the players [but should also be fun for viewers, unless they don't like (watching) the game in the first place], who would like more time to play (we're there to play and not to try to get everything over with super quickly), to have more fun, to have more time improving if they face off against a really good player, and have more chances on a win (the more chances of comparisons the more accurately the better player is shown; yes, 2 stock will show that mostly too, but to a lesser extent).

Oh well, I definitely see both things having problems. Not being on time with 300+ people tournaments could be a problem. But shouldn't it also have more setups then? Marc brings up a good point about caps if you can't handle too many players, but it would be sad to see really big tourneys having smaller caps because of it.
 
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It's a valid concern, but I think physical space and the amount of setups you have are going to be the biggest bottlenecks regardless. With Avalon for example, our cap is dictated by the location and fire safety, not the games we run. We always make sure we have enough setups for the amount of matches we want to have going on per wave, that doesn't change with the size of the event.
 
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