Smash 4 Ruleset Poll results discussion

[Kyzael]

The poll for Smash 4's ruleset came out and I wanted to have a discussion about these results in all the areas that were significant in the poll results (By winning by a landslide or a close tie.)

We'll be breaking each results in to sections as to not overload information on you, the reader and so you can easily find the section you actually care about.

Mains and Secondaries results
The results of 'Which character you use most in tournaments' (or secondary in tournaments) and the results were bothered me because there are 190,904 members for Smashboards.com. As to how many are active right now, I can't really give that answer.
But the total amount of people that participated in this recent poll was 3883. This is a small number compared to the large 190k members on Smashboards.

Top 5 Mains

Spoiler

Captain Falcon - 352 votes, 9.1%
Ness - 233 votes, 6%
Sheik - 219, 5.6%
Yoshi - 159, 4.1%
Fox - 154, 4%
An honorable mention is that Mario and Marth literally lost to Fox by 1 vote. (Yes, Mario and Marth are tied for 6th place. Which was 153, 3.9%)

Top 5 Secondaries

Spoiler

Captain Falcon - 256, 7.8%
Sheik - 150, 4.6%
Fox - 141, 4.3%
Mario - 136, 4.1%
Marth - 130, 4%

Alright, now we have some information on the table. You have to also take in the fact that a minority of people who have not participated in a tournament ever or in one ranging from 3 to 6+ months. (I have not been at an official tournament, there isn't much a scene near my area and I don't have the pleasure of traveling.)

The main reason of this topic is to discuss these highly listed mains and secondaries, as there tends to be a trend. Captain Falcon for instance has become highly popular (according to the data from the poll) compared to any of the other Smashers in the rosters. He won by over 100 votes for Mains and Secondaries. Why this bothers me personally is that there are multiple characters in the roster but yet the same 5 are used mostly, I mean there is Lucario who literally puts almost every fight in a Sudden Death due to the insane Aura/Rage combo.

I suppose to putting it simply is that the lack of diversity bothers me among my fellow smashers.
My friend and a couple other smashers have talked about this in another thread (I will not be linking it as to avoid advertising), but a part that came up was the professional players are at fault for...well being famous and picking a main, where as then the Sheople (Sheep people...Follow the herd) follow suit. For the Captain Falcon specifically, Zero would be more towards this as he decided to have Captain Falcon as his main.

P.s. This is not offend or criticize anyone for picking one of the top 5. I apologize beforehand if it appears that way.

Customs and Stock/Time results
For customs, this was very closely tied together, all getting at least 1000 votes for all 3 choices.

Customs results - Do you think Custom moves should be legal in tournaments?

Spoiler

Yes received 1582 votes, which was 40.7% of the total.
No received 1002 votes, which was 25.8% of the total.
Yes, but with some banned received 1299 votes, which was 33.5% of the total.

I am personally with the group of banning some customs. I know there are some very powerful customs (Ex. DK's tornado spin) but banning customs will cause problems of X custom being allowed but another custom being banned. I would suspect that the counter-argument would be that you need to learn to adapt to the custom being used, rather than ban it.

Stocks/Time results were mainly towards the results of 3 stocks, 8 minutes.

Stock/Time results - What stock count do you think tournaments should use for Singles?

Spoiler

2 stock, 5 minutes - 362 votes, 9.3%
2 stock, 6 minutes - 1019, 26.2%
3 stock, 8 minutes - 2356, 60.7%
Other - 146, 3.8%

In the area I live in, we play normally by the rules of 2 stock, 6 minutes. This is just what I was used to and what our host insisted on. Now with the thought of 3 stock, 8 minutes. I like and appreciate this idea a lot more as it gives more chance for the losing side to come back so that 2-stock'ing an opponant wasn't out of merely good luck but rather a proper test of skill. (A good example of why 3 stocks is better than 2 stocks is with the case of Lucario, who can literally 2-stock with ease due to the high damage/KO from Aura/Rage. Having 3 stocks would fix this from happening and resulting in 2-stock win.)

Mii Customs/Height
The poll between customs was relatively close to each other, meaning a lot of people had mixed feelings towards Mii's customs.
As for the sizes, it was mainly between the choices of having a default or having different varying sizes of small, medium, and large.

Mii Customs - With customs off, should Miis still be able to use their custom moves?

Spoiler

Yes - 276 votes, 27.5%
No, only default - 379 votes, 37.8%
No, sets 1, 2, or 3 only - 164 votes, 16.4%
I dont know - 183 votes, 18.3%

With Miis, I don't see them often but I know they have good custom abilities that would benefit them more than some of their defaults. Besides Miis are unique fighters in their own way, or well in every way and should be allowed to custom them accordingly.

Mii height - Should Miis be required to use a default size?

Spoiler

Yes - 1295, 33.4%
Yes, but specific sizes (Small, medium, & large) - 1283, 33%
No - 710, 18.3%
I don't know - 595, 15.3%

According to how Miis work, height changes up the speed or damage/KO power of the Mii in question. My personal opinion is that they should have a default size. Changing the size alters with stats of KO/dmg vs. Speed, where it should be left to the normal size. Leaving it that way makes things simple.

EDIT: Thanks to a moderator, I was given better information about Miis. So I apologize beforehand on false information. Miis sizes change their level of mobility, traction, and weight (possibly range also)

Now I am not going to be going over the legal/banned of the stages or counterpicking. Posting all that information is insane and I just simply don't have that much patience, I apologize. Though discussing about it is freely welcomed and encouraged. This is topic is to discuss all elements of the poll results, after all.

 

[Indigo Jeans]

Height/width does not affect a Mii's damage output or knockback, only their mobility, traction, weight, and (I think) range.

 

[Kyzael]

Height/width does not affect a Mii's damage output or knockback, only their mobility, traction, weight, and (I think) range.

Oh well, crap. Well thanks. I'll update that in a moment.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

It should be noted ASAP that when you take out the people who have never been to a tournament/not in over a month, the only result with a significant difference is Customs, with "No Customs" gaining a grand total of 4% according to reddit. Every other change was even less than that and completely insignificant. Even that 4% really ain't significant either.

 

[Piford]

It should be noted ASAP that when you take out the people who have never been to a tournament/not in over a month, the only result with a significant difference is Customs, with "No Customs" gaining a grand total of 4% according to reddit. Every other change was even less than that and completely insignificant. Even that 4% really ain't significant either.

The guy who posted that didn't check for stages, but I'm pretty sure the same holds. Skyloft, for instance, has the amount of people who want it banned drop by 1% when you remove people who never have been to a tourney for people who want FLSS, while it raises by 2% for people who want Starter/CP. So no huge change there.
For PS2, People who wanted Starter/CP had no change when the people who never attended were removed, and a 1% increase for people who want FLSS.
For Wuhu Island, saw a 1% increase for both people who want FLSS and Starter/CP.

I could go on, but those seem to be the most important stages and there's very little change. It's clear that a large amount of the Smash community wants the stages at least tested if not think they should be legal.

 

[Kronos2560]

This game without customs would be flatter than a day-old can of opened soda.

Some customs should be banned, but a lot of characters have great move sets that make them viable enough to compete with top-tiers. Why exclude that?

 

[Lavani]

Height/width does not affect a Mii's damage output or knockback, only their mobility, traction, weight, and (I think) range.

Indigoooooooo

Height: Moderate reach increase, very small damage increase, mobility decrease
Weight: Small survivability increase, small damage increase, mobility decrease

End lag on attacks is affected by height (and weight?) too.

 

[diclonyuus]

This game without customs would be flatter than a day-old can of opened soda.

Some customs should be banned, but a lot of characters have great move sets that make them viable enough to compete with top-tiers. Why exclude that?

Because that brings us to the question of "which customs should be excluded". Game-Breaking? Overpowered? Or just boring to spectate? Who decides at which point the line is crossed? Do you want to give another public poll a shot? Note that I am all for customs, but the implementation of Customs on actual Tourneys as well as the stance of "Yes, but ban X Y and Z customs" are the problems that keep me from voting yes on them.

Also, gentle reminder that this ruleset poll represents the opinion of smash players, and everyone was allowed to vote. An actual ruleset should be created by proper, civil argumentation and debate of Smashers who are knowledgeable about Smash Theory and are experienced with the game, because that is the basis to getting a fair, balanced ruleset instead of a popular one. Also keep in mind that Europe's 11% and Japan's SEVEN voters leave regions outside North America criminally underrepresented within this so-called international Ruleset Poll.

 

[Kronos2560]

Because that brings us to the question of "which customs should be excluded". Game-Breaking? Overpowered? Or just boring to spectate? Who decides at which point the line is crossed? Do you want to give another public poll a shot? Note that I am all for customs, but the implementation of Customs on actual Tourneys as well as the stance of "Yes, but ban X Y and Z customs" are the problems that keep me from voting yes on them.

Also, gentle reminder that this ruleset poll represents the opinion of smash players, and everyone was allowed to vote. An actual ruleset should be created by proper, civil argumentation and debate of Smashers who are knowledgeable about Smash Theory and are experienced with the game, because that is the basis to getting a fair, balanced ruleset instead of a popular one. Also keep in mind that Europe's 11% and Japan's SEVEN voters leave regions outside North America criminally underrepresented within this so-called international Ruleset Poll.

Yeah I'd say the first step would be to make sure we get more data from international locations. Only problem with that is they never played with customs on in the first place, so they data would easily be skewed unless they had proper exposure to formulate a stronger and more meaningful opinion.

Secondly, if we were to implement an amended custom ruleset, it would probably mean that top players would look heavily at a second poll we could do as to which customs are upsetting people, and then compare it to real data and seeing what moves are actually making this game "unplayable" for folks.

For example "Mario's explosive Up-B is OP!!! I died at 80, wtf!!!"

Look at the (hypothetical) data, Mario isn't winning tournaments. Clear downside to his recovery. Minimal high placers at the last big major. Safe to say it's not OP.

Then the next example: "Wow, I can't do anything to Sonic's hammer. There's literally no counterplay for the majority of the cast, and it's simplifying their approach way too much."

Look at the (hypothetical) data, Sonic is suddenly dominating the current meta, and has many players flocking to him to abuse this custom. Maybe it's ban worthy in this instance?

I personally want none of the customs banned. I think it allows for a much faster game that rewards reads and higher play on a much larger scale. It promotes diversity, and allows characters like Gannon and Mii Brawler a much stronger chance at being more competitive in the meta. I think taking that away after little time to let the custom meta grow would be a huge letdown. Especially after the majority is clearly in favor of a ruleset that includes customs in some sort of fashion.

 

[Kyzael]

Yeah I'd say the first step would be to make sure we get more data from international locations. Only problem with that is they never played with customs on in the first place, so they data would easily be skewed unless they had proper exposure to formulate a stronger and more meaningful opinion.

Secondly, if we were to implement an amended custom ruleset, it would probably mean that top players would look heavily at a second poll we could do as to which customs are upsetting people, and then compare it to real data and seeing what moves are actually making this game "unplayable" for folks.

For example "Mario's explosive Up-B is OP!!! I died at 80, wtf!!!"

Look at the (hypothetical) data, Mario isn't winning tournaments. Clear downside to his recovery. Minimal high placers at the last big major. Safe to say it's not OP.

Then the next example: "Wow, I can't do anything to Sonic's hammer. There's literally no counterplay for the majority of the cast, and it's simplifying their approach way too much."

Look at the (hypothetical) data, Sonic is suddenly dominating the current meta, and has many players flocking to him to abuse this custom. Maybe it's ban worthy in this instance?

I personally want none of the customs banned. I think it allows for a much faster game that rewards reads and higher play on a much larger scale. It promotes diversity, and allows characters like Gannon and Mii Brawler a much stronger chance at being more competitive in the meta. I think taking that away after little time to let the custom meta grow would be a huge letdown. Especially after the majority is clearly in favor of a ruleset that includes customs in some sort of fashion.

While customs promote and encourage diversity, it doesn't matter in the end when all the custom sets people pick are the exact same one. (Ex. Palutena. Super Speed, Lightweight for example.)

 

[diclonyuus]

While customs promote and encourage diversity, it doesn't matter in the end when all the custom sets people pick are the exact same one. (Ex. Palutena. Super Speed, Lightweight for example.)

Yes, yes it does. Of course it matters. I think we all agree that Palutena climbs two tiers when using these customs, which means that the gameplay is different than before. I think Customs are not about diversity, they're about helping characters out that struggle to maintain viability.

 

[Kronos2560]

While customs promote and encourage diversity, it doesn't matter in the end when all the custom sets people pick are the exact same one. (Ex. Palutena. Super Speed, Lightweight for example.)

I disagree that everyone picks the same ones.


I'm the only Megaman I know that picks 1333, and I've won, or placed high at most tournaments I attend.

Yes, yes it does. Of course it matters. I think we all agree that Palutena climbs two tiers when using these customs, which means that the gameplay is different than before. I think Customs are not about diversity, they're about helping characters out that struggle to maintain viability.

Yes, in terms of diversity, I was saying that there are more characters that are viable in the meta with customs on. Individual character diversity with customs is a separate argument. Thank you for clarifying my point