Smash 4 Damage & Frame Data Averages [WIP]

[Trifroze]

Frame data (hitbox coming out) averages for each character from fastest to slowest. Normals only since specials are usually meant for different things than instantly hitting the opponent. All variations of grab are taken into account.

Spoiler: Damage output

1. Ganondorf: 15.111
2. Bowser: 13.889
3. King Dedede: 12.444
4. Captain Falcon 11.944
5. Link: 11.833
6. Donkey Kong: 11.667
6. Rosalina: 11.667 (with Luma)
6. Zelda: 11.667
9. Ike: 11.389
10. Charizard: 11.111
11. Shulk: 10.889 (no arts)
12. Mewtwo: 10.833
12. Samus: 10.833
14. Mr. Game & Watch: 10.722
15. Robin: 10.611
16. Bowser Jr.: 10.556
16. Peach: 10.556
18. Olimar: 10.389 (all purple)
19. Dr. Mario: 10.333
19. Jigglypuff: 10.333
19. Ness: 10.333
22. Marth: 10.278 (all tippers)
22. Toon Link: 10.278
24. Wario: 10.222
25. Falco: 10.111
25. Duck Hunt Duo: 10.111
27. Yoshi: 10
28. WFT: 9.944 (no boost)
29. Mii Brawler: 9.889
30. Luigi: 9.833
30. Mega Man: 9.833
32. Pit: 9.778
32. Dark Pit: 9.778
34. Lucario: 9.667
35. Palutena: 9.5
35. Villager: 9.5
37. Fox: 9.333
37. Mii Swordfighter: 9.333
39. Kirby: 9.278
40. Diddy Kong: 9.222
40. Pacman: 9.222
42. ROB: 9
43. Little Mac: 8.944 (10.615 without aerials)
43. Mario: 8.944
45. Sonic: 8.778
45. ZSS: 8.778
47. Mii Gunner: 8.667
48. Greninja: 8.389
48. Lucina: 8.389
50. Pikachu: 8.333
51. Meta Knight: 7.889
52. Sheik: 7.444

Spoiler: Normals

1. Luigi: 6.375
2. Mario: 6.8125
3. Fox: 6.875
3. Sheik: 6.875
5. Dr. Mario: 7.1875
6. Diddy Kong: 7.3125
7. Little Mac: 7.4375
7. Pikachu: 7.4375
9. Meta Knight: 7.75
9. Mii Brawler: 7.75
11. Lucina: 7.8125
11. Marth: 7.8125
13. Pit: 7.8125
13. Dark Pit: 7.8125
15. Duck Hunt Duo: 8.125
16. Falco: 8.375
17. Wario: 8.5625
18. Mega Man: 8.8125
19. Rosalina: 8.875
20. Kirby: 8.9375
20. Ness: 8.9375
22. Olimar: 9
23. Peach: 9.0625
24. Jigglypuff: 9.1875
25. Sonic: 9.25
26. Pacman: 9.4375
27. Yoshi: 9.5
27. Zelda: 9.5
29. WFT: 9.625
30. Robin: 9.6875
31. Bowser Jr.: 9.8125
31. ROB: 9.8125
33. Mr. Game & Watch: 10
34. ZSS: 10.0625 (8.6154 without grabs)
35. Mii Swordfighter: 10.0667
36. Mii Gunner: 10.125
37. Lucario: 10.25
38. Mewtwo: 10.3125
39. Samus: 10.375 (9 without grabs)
40. Donkey Kong: 10.4375
41. Toon Link: 10.75
42. Palutena: 10.8125
43. Villager: 10.9375 (9.769 without grabs)
44. Charizard: 11
45. Bowser: 11.375
46. Captain Falcon: 11.75
47. Link: 11.9375
48. Shulk: 12.5625
49. Greninja: 12.625
50. Ike: 13.25
51. King Dedede: 14.4375
52. Ganondorf: 16.0625 (11.7333 without utilt)

Spoiler: Normals (5 fastest moves, only 1 grab per character)

1. Little Mac: 3
1. Mega Man: 3
3. Fox: 3.6
3. Sheik: 3.6
5. Luigi: 3.8
5. Mario: 3.8
5. Dr. Mario: 3.8
5. Pikachu: 3.8
9. Diddy Kong: 4
9. Falco: 4
11. Peach: 4.167
12. Kirby: 4.4
12. Mii Brawler: 4.4
12. ZSS: 4.4
15. Meta Knight: 4.6
15. Pacman: 4.6
15. Yoshi: 4.6
15. ROB: 4.6
19. Ness: 4.8
19. Sonic: 4.8
21. Pit: 5.2
21. Dark Pit: 5.2
21. Wario: 5.2
21. WFT: 5.2
25. Villager: 5.6
25. Bowser Jr.: 5.6
25. Lucina: 5.6
25. Marth: 5.6
25. Mr. Game & Watch: 5.6
25. Samus: 5.6
25. Zelda: 5.6
32. Greninja: 5.8
32. Lucario: 5.8
32. Jigglypuff: 5.8
35. Captain Falcon: 6
35. Donkey Kong: 6
35. Duck Hunt: 6
35. Olimar: 6
35. Rosalina: 6
40. Mii Gunner: 6.4
40. Mewtwo: 6.4
40. Robin: 6.4
43. Mii Swordfighter: 6.6
43. Palutena: 6.6
45. Charizard: 6.8
46. Ike: 7.2
46. Toon Link: 7.2
48. Link: 7.4
49. Ganondorf: 7.6
50. King Dedede: 7.8
51. Bowser: 8.4
52. Shulk: 8.8

Spoiler: Landing lag

1. Kirby: 13.8
2. Lucario: 14.6
3. Peach: 15.2
3. ZSS: 15.2
5. Mario: 15.8
6. Sheik: 16.6
7. Captain Falcon: 16.8
7. Luigi: 16.8
7. WFT: 16.8
10. Rosalina: 17
10. Yoshi: 17
12. Pacman: 17.2
12. Wario: 17.2
14. Link: 17.4
15. Palutena: 18
15. Villager: 18
17. Mr. Game & Watch: 18.2
18. ROB: 18.4
19. Greninja: 18.6
19. Jigglypuff: 18.6
21. Dr. Mario: 18.8
22. Lucina: 19.2
22. Marth: 19.2
22. Samus: 19.2
22. Shulk: 19.2
26. Ike: 19.6
26. Meta Knight: 19.6
28. Diddy Kong: 20
28. Fox: 20
30. Mega Man: 20.5
31. Falco: 20.6
31. Ness: 20.6
33. Olimar: 21
34. Bowser Jr.: 21.8
34. Ganondorf: 21.8
34. Robin: 21.8
37. Pit: 22.4
37. Dark Pit: 22.4
39. Donkey Kong: 22.6
39. Duck Hunt Duo: 22.6
39. Zelda: 22.6
42. Little Mac: 23.2
42. Toon Link: 23.2
44. King Dedede: 23.6
45. Sonic: 26.2
46. Pikachu: 26.8
47. Charizard: 29.4
48. Bowser: 31.2

Spoiler: Landing lag (3 fastest moves)

1. ZSS: 10
2. Link: 10.67
2. Sheik: 10.67
4. Captain Falcon: 11
4. Lucario: 11
6. Mario: 11.33
7. Kirby: 11.67
8. Peach: 12
9. Mr. Game & Watch: 13
10. Wario: 13.33
11. Dr. Mario: 14
11. Luigi: 14
11. Yoshi: 14
14. Greninja: 14.33
15. Pacman: 14.67
15. Villager: 14.67
15. WFT: 14.67
18. Falco: 15
18. Jigglypuff: 15
18. Olimar: 15
18. Rosalina: 15
22. Diddy Kong: 15.33
22. Palutena: 15.33
22. Samus: 15.33
25. Fox: 16
25. ROB: 16
27. Lucina: 16.33
27. Marth: 16.33
27. Ness: 16.33
30. Shulk: 16.67
31. Ike: 17.67
32. Toon Link: 18
33. Duck Hunt Duo: 18.33
34. Meta Knight: 18.67
35. Bowser Jr.: 19
36. Ganondorf: 19.33
36. King Dedede: 19.33
36. Mega Man: 19.33
39. Donkey Kong: 19.67
40. Little Mac: 20
40. Robin: 20
42. Sonic: 21
43. Pikachu: 21.33
43. Pit: 21.33
43. Dark Pit: 21.33
46. Zelda: 21.67
47. Bowser: 25.33
48. Charizard: 25.33

 

[Shadó Chimera / シャドーキメラ]

This really makes me appreciate all the people that say Yoshi's frame data is broken.

 

[W.A.C.]

This really makes me appreciate all the people that say Yoshi's frame data is broken.

...People say that? Seriously?

 

[Piford]

I cry every time. Also, what does this number mean? By frames is it total number of frames the move is active for, or is it the frame it hits on?

 

[Kofu]

It's probably the frame the move hits on, since we don't have move duration easily accessible to us.

Interesting that Dedede has the slowest kit if you ignore Ganon's UTilt. FSmash probably tacks on a few frames but having two really slow aerials doesn't help either.

 

[Trifroze]

Yeah it's the frame hitbox comes out, although I'll make a "total frames" list when possible.

 

[Piford]

Yeah it's the frame hitbox comes out, although I'll make a "total frames" list when possible.

Yeah so this doesn't really tell the whole story, since some moves come out quickly and stay out long, or have lost of lag, and stuff like that. Still interesting none the less.

 

[Asdioh]

Were you using this http://pastebin.com/NJ4Q5PzU to calculate? My only question is R.O.B, isn't his frame 26 Upair in that pastebin wrong? (I checked his averages on that pastebin and got the same average you did)
I kinda want to calculate the averages of all characters excluding grabs, just for the heck of it, but I want to be sure that data's accurate first.

 

[Indigo Jeans]

Iirc that pastebin has some errors because it is derived from thinkamans script when it couldnt interpret loops/subroutines correctly.

This is the most recent one I think, and it should have correct values for most things:

http://pastebin.com/PzTjdtx8

Edit: whoops, that pastebin doesn't have subroutine hitboxes either. Anyway UAir's first hit is on either F9 or F10.

 

[Nysyr]

Not sure it's right to use aerials in the list since to get off the ground you still need the jumpsquat time.

Also doesn't really show how long the move lasts overall.

 

[Asdioh]

Iirc that pastebin has some errors because it is derived from thinkamans script when it couldnt interpret loops/subroutines correctly.

This is the most recent one I think, and it should have correct values for most things:

http://pastebin.com/PzTjdtx8

Edit: whoops, that pastebin doesn't have subroutine hitboxes either. Anyway UAir's first hit is on either F9 or F10.

Well, that gives ROB a 9.81 (assuming frame 10 Upair) rather than 10.81!
What's a subroutine?

 

[Trifroze]

Yeah I used the incorrect one, did this all in an hour so completely missed that 26.

Jumpsquat is a thing but you're often already in the air when you decide to use an aerial.

 

[BJN39]

I'm actually pleasantly surprised Zelda didn't end up lower! (This was without endlag taken into account, right?)

 

[Ffamran]

I'm actually pleasantly surprised Zelda didn't end up lower! (This was without endlag taken into account, right?)

She's as fast as a dinosaur!

And gee, look who's pretty fast and would have been a bit faster if his Dash Attack wasn't twice as slow and his grab wasn't slower than Ganondorf's.

 

[Sinister Slush]

...People say that? Seriously?

Yes believe it or not.
People are really bad and most late 2014/2015 people are FG scrubs that still can't handle Yoshi.

 

[Indigo Jeans]

Well, that gives ROB a 9.81 (assuming frame 10 Upair) rather than 10.81!
What's a subroutine?

a subroutine is just a dumb coding thing that they used for some repeating hitboxes and not others? for example Rosalina's FAir and Game & Watch's BAir are "normal" repeating hitboxes, but rapid jabs, ROB's UAir weak hits, and I think Pac-Man's grabs are subroutines

the only issue with it is that the data for things that use subroutines isn't in mastercore 99% of the time so we dont know knockback and (accurate) angle stuff

 

[Yonder]

Luigi has the best normal frame data by a decent amount? Surprising.

 

[Vipermoon]

Yeah it's the frame hitbox comes out, although I'll make a "total frames" list when possible.

Was this your source? http://pastebin.com/PzTjdtx8

Since this is based on game files it wouldn't be skewed by human error.

Of course this is pre recent patch but start-up hitbox data is not something that usually gets changed in patches.

EDIT: NEVERMIND OTHER PEOPLE ASKED THIS QUESTION

 

[Xisin]

when people say broken frame data, they imply ending lag more than start up lag., for example marth has hella lag on his moves, his frames come out fast, but don;t last, it's far from broken, while this isnt misrepresentation, in order to get a better scope on things you have to take into account of IASA. This probably where the yoshi comments come from, his nair is ridic, (so i luigis, marios, fox etc.) Yoshi has a frame 3 nair, rob has a frame 3 dtilt, marths fastest move is jab 2, coming out on the 3rd frame but you have to jab 1 first, which is a frame 5 move. Other than that you have to think almost all of his moves come out on frame 6-9

 

[Luigi player]

Megamans lemonshots were probably calculated with frame 2, which is an "error". The hitbox comes out later. So for the 2nd ranking (5 fastest moves only) he's probably lower. And yeah it's prepatch data... although there probably won't be many differences.

It's definitely interesting to look at.

 

[Vipermoon]

So Marth is at 7.8125 which puts him in 11th place. If you include Jab 2 (since it pretty much doesn't combo with jab 1 let's pretend we count it as an extra move into the average) Marth is at 7.529 which would be 8th place.

If we're talking Brawl Marth we have 7.375 which would be 7th place. With Brawl jab 2 it's 7.176 frames or 4th place. Total frames comparison would show more.
Source: http://smashboards.com/threads/marth-frame-data.204825/page-8#post-9193171

Melee. No pivot grabs here. Some -1 frame and +1s going on between this and Brawl. 7.267, or 5th-and-a-half place. Melee jab 2...7.125...4th.
Source: http://smashboards.com/threads/complete-marth-hitboxes-and-frame-data.285324/

 

[TriTails]

Frame data (hitbox coming out) averages for each character from fastest to slowest. Normals only since specials are usually meant for different things than instantly hitting the opponent. All variations of grab are taken into account.

Spoiler: All normals

1. Luigi: 6.375

I knew it.

Props to him for having the highest attack speed and is like 0.4-0.5 faster than his bro.

Though, slap in specials and I'm expecting a joke.

Thanks by the way.

 

[deepseadiva]

Luigi has the best normal frame data by a decent amount? Surprising.

Have you played Luigi before

 

[Vipermoon]

Yeah you guys though, Luigi doesn't actually have the best frame data. Since when was start-up the only thing that determines good frame data? Mario definitely has better frame data than Luigi when you factor in everything like landing lag and countless others. The only things Luigi has that start earlier than Mario are Fair (which makes sense since Mario's is a very powerful spike), Fsmash, and Dash Attack. Not that it matters, like I said, start-up won't determine much.

I mean look at Marth, he has among the best frame data right? HAHAHA NO. He moves start early but they don't last long and they lag like crazy.

 

[Trifroze]

Low endlag and low landing lag are objectively good for frame data, but moves that linger for a long time aren't automatically. Using one commits you for a longer time than most moves and thus it's much easier to punish on whiff, and even if you hit with the lingering hitbox it's usually quite weak. Moves that stay out for 3-5 frames with their strong hitbox out and then end quickly are pretty ideal. Marth's hitboxes stay out for a decent amount of time from what I've gathered, but I'm not sure about his endlag. His landing lag is pretty bad.

I'd definitely make rankings of total frame data and not just startup, but I'm fairly sure those haven't been listed anywhere. Some character boards have checked theirs. I think I'll do landing lag next though since the numbers are easily available in a chart.

EDIT: Done.

 

[Deleted member]

frame data so booty

 

[Trifroze]

Added damage output averages (no specials). Ignored multi-hitbox moves that can potentially hit many times but never will, such as many dsmashes that hit on two sides with different hitboxes, and I only counted the stronger hit. Olimar was kinda hard to do justice with since Pikmin affect damage, and I put Lucario to mid aura (95%) for his tests. I mainly used this http://pastebin.com/GgwvXpdr but fixed errors and patch changes. I included pummels even though lesser damage is usually compensated by speed, but on the other hand you can say that about any move. If a character has two variations of jab I included the stronger one only because it would skew the results to put those characters in an automatic disadvantage for having two versions of a usually weak move.

 

[Ultinarok]

I didn't realize Greninja had overall worse start-up frames than Shulk. Ouch. And his damage output is bottom 5 to boot. Plus there's his problems KOing...the whole "nerf Greninja" meme is stupid but I gotta admit, he is fighting an uphill battle. Although I believe his end lag is relatively good, he's fast both grounded and airborne and has super high jumps, and a lot of disjointed attacks plus a decent projectile and solid recovery. So I kinda understand but you'd think a character that's so fast would attack faster, like Sheik and Fox do.

Btw, thanks for taking the time to make this Trifroze, can't wait for your Smash 4 compilations with Forre and Loota and everyone.

 

[ReturningFall]

...People say that? Seriously?

...on every character board no less...

 

[LightLV]

Dem mario bros normals

Anyway this is somewhat insightful i guess, but it omits too much information. It gives a rough idea of who's faster/slower, but for instance won't warn you that Ike's jab is kinda crazy and Gannon's Ftilt/Usmash isn't always worth trying to punish.

 

[erico9001]

Something about Shulk's landing lag is unlike almost all other characters, he does NOT have autocancels. Only the MALLC AT.

Shulk's surprisingly high in damage, but that makes sense considering his slowness. Since Buster increases all damage by 1.4, all you have to do is multiply the average by that to get his buster output. 10.889 × 1.4 = 15.2446. Oh, so he really does become the highest damage person!

Anyways, good stuff.